The Terri Schiavo Saga

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Does this make you wonder about your own death and your wills?
If you were in her husband's shoes, what would you do? Do you justify his decision?

 

[DrBowtie]

The husband was carrying out HER wishes. The court decided that there was enough evidence to support that SHE didn't want to live like that.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Does this make you wonder about your own death and your wills?
If you were in her husband's shoes, what would you do? Do you justify his decision?

 

[Gut Shot]

While we're at it, how about a Welsh Corgi?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

It was completely ethical to withdraw life support and it should have been done long ago. Her family were deluding themselves and should not have been allowed to drag this out for years like they did. I feel sorry for them for their loss, but to put off mourning their daughter I fear they may have done more harm to themselves than they did good.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

By the way, if anyone would like a copy of the autopsy report, please let me know. I can e-mail it to you. 👍

 

[Doctor Bagel]

The husband was carrying out HER wishes. The court decided that there was enough evidence to support that SHE didn't want to live like that.

exactly!! the fact that every single court that heard this case sided with him is pretty good support in his favor. imo, he did the right thing and apparently what she would have wanted.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

It was completely ethical to withdraw life support and it should have been done long enough. Her family were deluding themselves and should not have been allowed to drag this out for years like they did. I feel sorry for them for their loss, but to put off mourning their daughter I fear they may have done more harm to themselves than they did good.

Also my thoughts. They were acting irrationally, and I honestly think they were behaving out of selfishness. They didn't want to admit that their daughter was gone, so they put tons of time and effort into keeping her shell alive. They even refused to accept the autopsy results showing that she was indeed in a persistive vegetative state and actually blind (so, no, her eyes were tracking). Honestly, I don't have a lot of respect for her parents.

 

[gujuDoc]

I agree with everyone on here. Although, I know many people in support of keeping her alive, I'm glad they pulled the plug because there is no way she was going to wake up. Everything pointed to permanent brain damage. Not to mention that it had been 14 years in that bed. While there have been some miraculous cases, I don't think this was going to be one of them from what I saw.

 

[GED MD]

... Honestly, I don't have a lot of respect for her parents.

I know where you're coming from exlawgrrl, but I'd like to repectfully disagree. I do gree that Terri had very little change of recovery and that her husband was acting in her interest, but if it were my daughter, and I held their beliefs, I would do everything I could to protect her.

But what did her parents do? They were able to mobilize a significant portion of the nation into action. They were able to command a special session of the Congress to pass a extra-ordinary piece of legislation which will be debated have far reaching ramifications. This legislation was warranted waking the President of the United States up for his signature. ... and would certainly warrant review by the Supreme Court. Further, the Pope, leader of the 1.3 billion person Catholic church, felt compelled to speak on behalf of their daughter.

I have a great deal of respect for her parents.

But here is my underlying comment, what would be necessary to get these two people who have so much support to convince this nation to take a stand now and fight for the millions of people in Africa with HIV? or the uninsured in America?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I feel empathy for her parents, but it does not change the fact that they used blatant disinformation to rally a large portion of this country by playing to people's religious beliefs. Their actions did nothing to make me lose respect for them, but I do wish they had not been so troubled by the truth.

 

[gujuDoc]

I feel empathy for her parents, but it does not change the fact that they used blatant disinformation to rally a large portion of this country by playing to people's religious beliefs. Their actions did nothing to make me lose respect for them, but I do wish they had not been so troubled by the truth.

Exactly. And also, I'd like to comment on something about the post above yours........

The poster above mentioned how Schiavo's parents got legislation passed in her name. I don't think that legislation or their blatant abuse of the govt was necessary and if it had been someone with less then half the money they had, then no one would give two cents.

I don't think Sciavo is any different then any of the other cases of people who are faced with this decision every day and I really believe there wasn't much to be done in her case.

 

[GED MD]

I'm not so much worried about her parents here. I agree that a lot of the things they did seem pretty ridiculous (like when Terri screamed "ahhhh....," and they filed a court petition saying that she was actually trying to say "I wanna live." .... ), but that's not the point I'm trying to make. These guys were able to focus a lot of attention to try and "fix" some injustice they percieved. If somehow we could get them and the masses they drew to recognize that poor, uninsured, undocumented, ... so many people ... all someone's children ... just like Terri was to them ... maybe we could work together to wake the POTUS up to get him to sign off on a bill for some form of medical safety net. I mean, these guys put up this huge fight for someone who had probably zero recovery chance. What about the kids who are very much alive, no respirator, but are dying because they don't have access to vaccines, sanity water, basic medical care...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm not so much worried about her parents here. I agree that a lot of the things they did seem pretty ridiculous (like when Terri screamed "ahhhh....," and they filed a court petition saying that she was actually trying to say "I wanna live." .... ), but that's not the point I'm trying to make. These guys were able to focus a lot of attention to try and "fix" some injustice they percieved. If somehow we could get them and the masses they drew to recognize that poor, uninsured, undocumented, ... so many people ... all someone's children ... just like Terri was to them ... maybe we could work together to wake the POTUS up to get him to sign off on a bill for some form of medical safety net. I mean, these guys put up this huge fight for someone who had probably zero recovery chance. What about the kids who are very much alive, no respirator, but are dying because they don't have access to vaccines, sanity water, basic medical care...

Yeah, they were success in their game, but why would they care about helping others? They never evidenced any concern about other people, and in fact wasted medical resources on their own daughter that could arguably have gone to better use. Also, they don't value the truth, so maybe they can just convince themselves that there isn't a problem with access to care.

You're right, it would be beautiful if one could mobilize an effort as big the Schiavo thing for something actually useful. However, how the media works and how the religious right (sadly, enough, including the RCC these days) works, I don't think it'd ever happen. Instead, we're all manipulated into raising a fuss about things that don't matter.

 

[GED MD]

I don't think this has to be so. If honor and duty worked as motivating factors, we wouldn't have this health care crisis. No, probably guilt and shame would be the best factors here. You get some celebrities (well, this is America after all, you didn't expect that a scientist was going to draw people's attention.) as spokespersons for some "Pro-Child" group whose job is to oblige both PRo-Life and Pro-Choice groups to put aside some percentage of their expenses to child health charities. This is done simulataneously and very publicly to both groups saying basically "if you both say you're interested in the welfare of the children, then do something about it!" .... but, I know that's pretty ridiculous, trying to get Pro-Life and Pro-Choice groups together on something. I'm sure it would fail catastrophically, so much so that it'd probably be in all over the news. ... maybe get somepeople talking about why we can't work together on something we all believe in.

 

[DrBowtie]

I don't think this has to be so. If honor and duty worked as motivating factors, we wouldn't have this health care crisis. No, probably guilt and shame would be the best factors here. You get some celebrities (well, this is America after all, you didn't expect that a scientist was going to draw people's attention.) as spokespersons for some "Pro-Child" group whose job is to oblige both PRo-Life and Pro-Choice groups to put aside some percentage of their expenses to child health charities. This is done simulataneously and very publicly to both groups saying basically "if you both say you're interested in the welfare of the children, then do something about it!" .... but, I know that's pretty ridiculous, trying to get Pro-Life and Pro-Choice groups together on something. I'm sure it would fail catastrophically, so much so that it'd probably be in all over the news. ... maybe get somepeople talking about why we can't work together on something we all believe in.

No one listens to celebrities political rants/support.

 

[LowlyPremed]

Does this make you wonder about your own death and your wills?



Getting back to the OP's question. We should consider the patient in all of this and raise questions about the dignity of her last days of life. Regardless of if you believed she should or should not be removed from life support, no one allowed this woman to die with dignity. What about her privacy? Schiavo's face was plastered across every newspaper and tv set in America. I know that I would not want all of America debating wether I should live or die. That's the real injustice.

 

[MD'05]

Wow. She must have been all brainstem at the end of her life. No wonder she appeared to be happy, no bad thoughts were possible.

I can actually empathize with boths sides of the argument: the husband and the parents. It is very hard, if not outright impossible, to understand what these people went through. We are only backseat drivers in the debate.

 

[GED MD]

No one listens to celebrities political rants/support.

I would disagree, pointing to Bob Geldof's work with Live Aid or Willie Neslon with Farm Aid. Sting's support of the rain forest. Mel Gibson following the release of the Passion. Oprah of course... Michael J. Fox and Christopher Reeves, both of whom brought tremendous donations for their causes.... And of course, Bono, who's given advice to Kofi Annan. ... (that said, Tom Cruise is a great example of a celebrity douche. http://www.zefrank.com/alien_art/ )

... no matter though, I'm simply proposing that there is a tremendous amount of interest to "do good." ... even if we don't agree with some of it. Let's just try to find something we can agree with and start there.

Here's an example (a disturbingly little known fact) the ongoing Second Congo War, (1998-present), has resulted 3.8 million people killed, either actively or passively by starvation. (!) (For reference, the Holocaust is estimated to have taken 6 million.) ... surely we could all agree that we don't need match numbers with the Holocaust before we say that this is a much more pressing and serious issue that living wills and the Right to Die.

... okay, I'm taking this thread way out of it's original intent, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[DrBowtie]

I would disagree, pointing to Bob Geldof's work with Live Aid or Willie Neslon with Farm Aid. Sting's support of the rain forest. Mel Gibson following the release of the Passion. Oprah of course... Michael J. Fox and Christopher Reeves, both of whom brought tremendous donations for their causes.... And of course, Bono, who's given advice to Kofi Annan. ... (that said, Tom Cruise is a great example of a celebrity douche. http://www.zefrank.com/alien_art/ )

... no matter though, I'm simply proposing that there is a tremendous amount of interest to "do good." ... even if we don't agree with some of it. Let's just try to find something we can agree with and start there.

Here's an example (a disturbingly little known fact) the ongoing Second Congo War, (1998-present), has resulted 3.8 million people killed, either actively or passively by starvation. (!) (For reference, the Holocaust is estimated to have taken 6 million.) ... surely we could all agree that we don't need match numbers with the Holocaust before we say that this is a much more pressing and serious issue that living wills and the Right to Die.

... okay, I'm taking this thread way out of it's original intent, so I'll leave it at that.

Living wills and Right to die are more important to American people. Leave the Congo to self govern/be in Civil War.

Taking the rain forest for example, Most people in America will never see the rainforests, thus would never realize their gone, thus not mobilize for the cause.

 

[casi]

I actually kind of pity her parents. It's obvious that they didn't understand what natural death normally entails.

Most people see life support as machines such as ventilators. Many people would consider a nourishment a form of life support. In most cases it’s considered barbaric to withhold food from someone. It’s hard to see what most would view as starvation as a natural process of death.

What was needed in this case was education. Good education where people could explain the dying process to the family and public. How many people know what hospice is and what hospice nurses do? How many people know that a lot of times at the end of some ones life they simply stop eating? People are so afraid of death they don’t educate themselves about it.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Education will never trump blind fanaticism unfortunately. By the way, I mean the idiots camped out in front of the hospice and who repeatedly tried to go in and give Terri "a drink", not her family.

As for the member who made the comment about not being worried or concerned for her family- keep in mind that when the patient is beyond help, the family becomes your "patients" as much as the one with medical issues. If you find yourself not concerned about a family- no matter how looney or bizarre their opinions- then you are a small step from losing concern for everyone.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Education will never trump blind fanaticism unfortunately. By the way, I mean the idiots camped out in front of the hospice and who repeatedly tried to go in and give Terri "a drink", not her family.

As for the member who made the comment about not being worried or concerned for her family- keep in mind that when the patient is beyond help, the family becomes your "patients" as much as the one with medical issues. If you find yourself not concerned about a family- no matter how looney or bizarre their opinions- then you are a small step from losing concern for everyone.

who said they weren't concerned about the family or their emotions? i said i didn't respect them (and i don't based on their actions during the whole debacle including their smear tactics and lack of respect for medicine or the law). that's different from saying that the wishes of a family don't matter. however, the patient's wishes trump the family's wishes. in this case, there was pretty clear evidence of terri's wishes, but her family refused to believe it or to respect her wishes.

 

[gujuDoc]

who said they weren't concerned about the family or their emotions? i said i didn't respect them (and i don't based on their actions during the whole debacle including their smear tactics and lack of respect for medicine or the law). that's different from saying that the wishes of a family don't matter. however, the patient's wishes trump the family's wishes. in this case, there was pretty clear evidence of terri's wishes, but her family refused to believe it or to respect her wishes.

Exactly what I think. I agree with the above quoted post. I understand it must be a hard thing to lose a child, but after 14 years I don't think Terri was going to wake up when her brain was deteriorating even worse.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

who said they weren't concerned about the family or their emotions? i said i didn't respect them (and i don't based on their actions during the whole debacle including their smear tactics and lack of respect for medicine or the law). that's different from saying that the wishes of a family don't matter. however, the patient's wishes trump the family's wishes. in this case, there was pretty clear evidence of terri's wishes, but her family refused to believe it or to respect her wishes.

Actually I was talking about GED MD's comment: "I'm not so much worried about her parents here."

 

[Beau Geste]

Living wills and Right to die are more important to American people. Leave the Congo to self govern/be in Civil War.

Taking the rain forest for example, Most people in America will never see the rainforests, thus would never realize their gone, thus not mobilize for the cause.

And we've all seen how detrimental the rainforest can be from South Park!

 

[Beau Geste]

I know where you're coming from exlawgrrl, but I'd like to repectfully disagree. I do gree that Terri had very little change of recovery and that her husband was acting in her interest, but if it were my daughter, and I held their beliefs, I would do everything I could to protect her.

But what did her parents do? They were able to mobilize a significant portion of the nation into action. They were able to command a special session of the Congress to pass a extra-ordinary piece of legislation which will be debated have far reaching ramifications. This legislation was warranted waking the President of the United States up for his signature. ... and would certainly warrant review by the Supreme Court. Further, the Pope, leader of the 1.3 billion person Catholic church, felt compelled to speak on behalf of their daughter.

I have a great deal of respect for her parents.

But here is my underlying comment, what would be necessary to get these two people who have so much support to convince this nation to take a stand now and fight for the millions of people in Africa with HIV? or the uninsured in America? [/QUOTE

Oh, come on. Anytime there is a major disaster in the US, Congress always comes up with special subcommittees to investigate. Even the mine disaster has already spawned interest groups.

Also, we tried to help people in Africa - remember USA for Africa, not to mention getting ourselves politically involved in Somalia and other areas of Africa. In case you haven't noticed, most countries are so seriously corrupted in Africa that no good can come until they are righted.

Terry Schiavo's parents are not world peacekeepers. They fought for their daughter and lost. Could you imagine seeing your daughter like that and wanting her close to you because you loved her, but someone else decided she should die? (which would make me go crazy!) Now that it's over, let them be. I am proud of them for fighting for their daughter, but don't make them out to be the bad guy because they don't take up a cause for Africa or AIDS. You can make them out to be the bad guy for things they did wrong pertaining to Terry, but to get on their case for not supporting the AIDS cause? Please.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with both sides of the Schiavo case, but for crying out loud, it is a case of euthanasia, not world hunger or AIDS.

I think it just should not have been made public. I think it was a great disservice to the concept of privacy and dignity, and I think her husband was an @ss for they way he handled it and her parents were hot-headed with the way they handled it.

I can smell book deals, TV movies, and maybe even an action-figure stemming from this incident.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I can smell book deals, TV movies, and maybe even an action-figure stemming from this incident.

Interesting seeing as Michael Schiavo has had very little contact with the media (when compared to Terri's parents), and is still working as a nurse- which he became after Terri's cardiac arrest in 1990 (or was it 1991?)- in the Pinellas County jail. Not exactly the actions or work of a man who is looking to turn a quick buck on the death of his wife.

 

[Beau Geste]

Interesting seeing as Michael Schiavo has had very little contact with the media (when compared to Terri's parents), and is still working as a nurse- which he became after Terri's cardiac arrest in 1990 (or was it 1991?)- in the Pinellas County jail. Not exactly the actions or work of a man who is looking to turn a quick buck on the death of his wife.

I didn't specify who I thought would get a book deal. I actually expect it from both parties. But still, Michael Schiavo published this one:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&isbn=0525949461

I could not, however find a book published by her parents.

Edit: I found this book by the parents, my prediction was right that both sides would have book deals!:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/04...103-7014494-8979866?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

He was also interviewed on Larry King Live and Nightline as well as several newspapers. That's not "little" contact.

One or both of the schindlers have been on Hannity/Colmes, Larry King, etc, etc. (yeah, probably more than Michael Schiavo) but still, you make it sound as if Mr. Schiavo is a saint. For as many people that say he was a great guy are those who say he was a creep. Being a nurse doesn't make him exempt from being a creep. Whatever. It doesn't matter now, anyway. She's dead.

So many people try to make the parents out to be horrible, all I was saying is that I empathize with them.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Dealing daily with families who have lost loved ones, I empathize as well, but I still believe that false hope is worse than no hope at all. It is sad that they muddied the waters so much through the refusal to except that their daughter was in fact, gone. No one now (possibly not even her family) remembers Terri as she was in life:

Rather this is what they think of when you mention her name:

That is the real tragedy here. The loss of a beautiful and vibrant woman has been obscured by the fog of religious fervor and personal differences.....


If they had excepted the fact that she was effectively brain dead back when this all started none of us would have to had to watch their torment and they could have worked through their grief much easier than they are now. They are not horrible persons by any means, just misguided and bullheaded. They cared for their daughter- that much I am sure of, but just because they are practicing and devout Catholics does not mean any more that she held exactly those same beliefs any more than the fact that my mother is such an atheist that she is likely to burst in flame when she arrives at the Church for my wedding means that I am not a religious person.

I don't believe Michael was a saint- no one is- but I do believe he was acting in Terri's best interests. I think those who are maligning him as being after money were blinded to the fact that he received little of that money (most of it went to pay medical bills), and that he went out of his way to pursue the best care possible, even going so far as to pursue RT and RN training so he could be better positioned to take care of her. All I was saying is that doesn't smack of someone who is a creep or doesn't care for someone.