The Truth

[radoncmonkey]

---

Members do not see this ad.

This forum makes it seem impossible to match into rad onc. It's a competitive field but in reality matching is not nearly as hard as people think.

According to the NRMP Data, 80% of US seniors ranking rad onc first matched into the field. Only 30% of FMG or IMG matched, this is what brings the numbers down.

Average board score is 228, this is barely above the national mean. People who scored over 230 matched 85% of the time, people who scored over 240 matched 90% of the time.

Only 20% of people matching are in AOA.

When it comes down to it, the key to matching is how many interview you go on. US seniors who ranked 8 or more programs matched 95% of the time. Therefore, every non-superhuman candidate should apply broadly and go to as many interviews as possible. If you go on eight or more and you have no major flaws on your application (i.e. no research at all, horrible grades, disciplinary action, negative LOR) then you will match.

Source: www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

 

[stephew]

very good points monkey.

 

[Gfunk6]

According to the NRMP Data, 80% of US seniors ranking rad onc first matched into the field.

There is a lot of self-selection going on. I know students who are interested in RadOnc but are afraid that they will not match. Neurosurgery residency slots are similarly self-selecting.

When it comes down to it, the key to matching is how many interview you go on.

True, but how many interviews you get are based in part (some would say a large part) on your numbers.

Therefore, every non-superhuman candidate should apply broadly and go to as many interviews as possible.

This is an old lesson that applies to virtually every residency field. Myself and others have constantly been preaching this on the board.

 

[radonc]

This forum makes it seem impossible to match into rad onc. It's a competitive field but in reality matching is not nearly as hard as people think.

According to the NRMP Data, 80% of US seniors ranking rad onc first matched into the field. Only 30% of FMG or IMG matched, this is what brings the numbers down.

Average board score is 228, this is barely above the national mean. People who scored over 230 matched 85% of the time, people who scored over 240 matched 90% of the time.

Only 20% of people matching are in AOA.

When it comes down to it, the key to matching is how many interview you go on. US seniors who ranked 8 or more programs matched 95% of the time. Therefore, every non-superhuman candidate should apply broadly and go to as many interviews as possible. If you go on eight or more and you have no major flaws on your application (i.e. no research at all, horrible grades, disciplinary action, negative LOR) then you will match.

Source: www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

you make all very good points

but here are some things that you fail to mention:

1. research: 78% of applicants have publications, 97% participated in research projects. Compare this to applicants of other fields....Plastics: 75, 96, respectively; IM 56, 85% respectively; derm 80, 95% respectively, Peds 44, 79% respectively; Anesthesia 47, 81% respectively. Thus, you may surmise that participating in quality research projects and publishing data is more important than non-competitive fields and very similar to competitive fields.

2. self selection: i agree with Gfunk6 who mentioned this above. Radonc is like derm and ortho in that only people who are competitive for the field even try to apply. And competitive for radonc may not be super high board scores or AOA. It may be a technical background, research, PhD, etc.

3. match success: you mention that 80% of people who rank radonc first will match. However, you fail to mention that this was the 3rd lowest figure, only ahead of derm and plastics. this should tell you that this is a competitive match process. Also, "all specialties except Plastic Surgery, General Surgery, Dermatology, Orthopaedic Surgery and Radiation Oncology have enough positions to accommodate all U.S. seniors who prefer that specialty."

4. board scores: you mention the mean being 228. However, a better figure to look at is the median, which is about 234, or the 4rd highest median score, only behind plastics, derm, and ortho.

In addition, the number of interviews is a good indicator of how likely someone is to match, but its not guaranteed. i interviewed at 12+ programs and didnt match the first time around. i know people who interviewed at 4 programs at matched, and someone who interviewed at 17 and didnt match.

there is no formula to getting a radiation oncology residency position. all you can do is try your hardest (get good grades, do research, aways, etc) and pray that things work out.

 

[radonc]

oh, and the 'All Others" are those who are not US Seniors...ie IMGs & FMGs, but also those medical school graduates from US schools who didnt match the prev year, current residents who switch out of their programs, or military people who fulfill their reqs and are looking for another field.

 

[radoncmonkey]

You guys are all so negative. People with positive attitudes match 80% of the time.

The research item is misleading. People with their name on one abstract and people with twenty nature publications both count in that statistic.

If you get more than seven interviews then last year you would have matched 94% of the time. Obviously there are some exceptions, but I'll take 94% any day of the week.

As for board scores the 25-75 %ile is 220 to 245. This means that 1 out of 4 current residents were below 220 and one out of four were over 245. Also the percentage of people matching with 220's (14/18) was similar to that of people with 250's (23/28).

80% of US seniors match. If you are a US senior and you are applying this year then you have a good chance regardless of what other people on this board tell you. Don't let them discourage you. I was hesitant when I applied but now I know the truth.

 

[radoncmonkey]

There is a lot of self-selection going on. I know students who are interested in RadOnc but are afraid that they will not match. Neurosurgery residency slots are similarly self-selecting.

People who apply match 80% of the time. Period. If you apply you are in this group regardless of self selection or not. People who don't apply match 0% of the time.

I know from personal experience. I almost did not apply b/c I thought I had no chance. Now its October and I have multiple interview offers. This forum can be discouraging. I'm trying to add some fact based positivity.

 

[radonc]

radoncmonkey, that is great you received several interviews thus far...but you havent matched yet...

 

[radoncmonkey]

radoncmonkey, that is great you received several interviews thus far...but you havent matched yet...

it would be no fun to not match but it would just mean doing a year of research and reapplying. i think you have to be willing to do this when you apply to the field, if you are not then you should have some sort of backup plan.

 

[Thaiger75]

One other factor that wasn't mentioned that isn't so obvious is that more important that # interviews is the # spots you are competing for. A person who interviews at 5-10 programs with 3-5 spots/program is in a much better position to match than a person who interviews at 10-15 programs with only 1-2 spots/program. This is very much indigenous to rad onc as there are so few spots.

I also didn't match the 1st time around when I interviewed at 10+ programs, but my downfall was that each program only had 1-2 spots for the most part. If you ain't on their top 3 or so in a particular program, you're screwed for that program...and that can easily happen 10x.

A positive attitude is exactly how anybody should be going into this process, of course, but a positive attitude doesn't increase your chances of matching.

Also that 80% is probably a little overstimated and misleading because there are some who don't get interviewed at all. 80% is among those people who actually ranked programs. Having said that, if you're getting more than 5+ interviews, that's a good sign. Chances are, you will match, rather than not.

 

[radonc]

it would be no fun to not match but it would just mean doing a year of research and reapplying. i think you have to be willing to do this when you apply to the field, if you are not then you should have some sort of backup plan.

agreed. however, i would choose to do a year of internship, because PGY-2 spots do open up in the middle of the year, and less people apply for those positions. thus, you feasibly could transition into a pgy-2 spot without missing a beat. i would, though, setup research for the time off, and put that on your resume...

 

[radoncmonkey]

It makes no sense to do a prelim year right away if you know that you want to do rad onc.

1. You don't have time to improve you application prior to applying.

2. You still will need to take another year off.

3. You will have no time whatsoever to go on interviews.

4. You can't do a transitional year.

5. There's maybe one or two spots that open each year, and often those are filled by highly competitive applicants in another field (i.e. ENT, neurosurgery) who want a career change.

 

[radonc]

It makes no sense to do a prelim year right away if you know that you want to do rad onc.

1. You don't have time to improve you application prior to applying.

2. You still will need to take another year off.

3. You will have no time whatsoever to go on interviews.

4. You can't do a transitional year.

5. There's maybe one or two spots that open each year, and often those are filled by highly competitive applicants in another field (i.e. ENT, neurosurgery) who want a career change.

1. you do have time do improve your application...the rest of med school (which is basically vacation), you can do electives AS A RESIDENT during your intern year.

2. true, you will have still have a year off, but then you will have to interview at prelim/transitional programs and it adds more $$$.

3. if you talk to your PD, you will have time for interviews. you can always switch call days with people, and schedule vacation and ambulatory months during that time.

4. if you want to do a transitional year, go ahead and do it. you DEF will have time to interview if you do that instead of a prelim year.

5. those spots arent necessarily taken by people in other specialties...

do what you want, but people on this board (including myself) did prelim medicine during that year, and subsequently matched.

 

[deleted4401]

I'm assuming that you haven't matched and/or know little about the process, b/c I think you are incorrect on every single count. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you shouldn't dispense wrong information.

1. You don't have time to improve you application prior to applying.

It's fourth year of med school (i.e. the most expensive vacation you'll ever have). You find out in March. You should have an idea in January (i.e. you only received 7 interviews), and you start making plans to begin research. I arranged research electives and finished a manuscript by the 2nd month of internship.

2. You still will need to take another year off.

Hmmm ... there were two people in my intern class that didn't match in rad-onc. Both of us are now rad-onc first years. I took two months off, but that's because I'm an idiot and didn't take Step II CS on time. I know at least 3 other people personally that didn't take a year off, and there are multiple others.

3. You will have no time whatsoever to go on interviews.

I went on 13 interviews (skipped 4, b/c they overlapped but I had time to go on all of them). I didn't miss one day of work, I didn't call in jeopardy once. I did have to use vacation days. In December, I did ED and planned my shifts around interviews. In January, I did radiology for two weeks and vacation for four weeks, which meant I interviewed for four weeks. I did get the aforementioned 2 month break after intern year. That was nice.

4. You can't do a transitional year.

You can. I don't even know how to respond to this. You can do whatever you want, as long as it is approved as an intern year by the ABR (IM, TY, Peds, FP, Surgery, OB-GYN).

5. There's maybe one or two spots that open each year, and often those are filled by highly competitive applicants in another field (i.e. ENT, neurosurgery) who want a career change.

This is the statement that is extremely misleading at best ...

There are usually 5-10 open spots per year (last year, at least 12-14 that I know of: UTSW-2 (new program), UMNDJ-2 (new program), USC-1, Maryland-1, Kentucky-1, Pittsburgh-1, Einstein-1, Louisville-? 1, SUNY-Downstate - ?1, Baylor - 1, Syracuse-1, Arizona - 1, Minnesota - 1. I was offered two of those spots, and was the 'backup' for another (thanks a lot, Dr. Choy 🙂 ). By no means was I a "highly competitive applicant from another field".

If 80% of US Seniors match (i.e. n=125), that means there are about 25 unmatched US Seniors. The #s belie the fact that 15-20 others got 0-3 interviews and may not have ranked a program. So, ~40 unmatched people. You figure 1/4 to 1/2 plan on not applying again. Many others are limited by geography. A few others are limited by just not being good candidates. I'd say there were 10-20 competitive applicants (that's why I got multiple offers, b/c there were so few people, much less high-level candidates). As for who got those spots - I know for fact that almost each of those spots went to people who previously applied to rad-onc.

Match first, give advice later.
-S

 

[napoleondynamite]

Match first, give advice later.
-S

touche! Will the real radoncmonkey please stand up, please stand up??

 

[radoncmonkey]

You will improve your application a lot more by doing research for a year than by having to deal with a prelim year.

I'm not saying its impossible to match if you do your prelim year right away. But the odds of getting that pgy2 spot that might open up are very low and you may not want to go to that program anyway. Last year a spot opened up at Maryland and an ENT took it. So other specialties do compete for these spots.

If you can finish one project during a prelim year then you could finish multiple projects during a year devoted to research. A year of quality research will greatly improve your application and open many doors for you.

Also what's the point of doing a transitional year then taking a year off. If you don't match then the year is worthless. If you do a prelim you can at least go into another field. This is bad advice.

Its makes no sense to me to go straight into your pgy1 year. I would not recommend it for anyone.

 

[stephew]

i think this is a bit of an overgeneralization. You can't make the sweeping statement that you'd do better to do research than prelim; it depends in large part on how close you were to matching the first time around. There is no reason to think that a radonc spot is more eager to match someone from an outside the field than someone who has always wanted radonc. Not too many people each year are looking to switch midstream; most are people who didnt get in to begin with. Its not at all true that "if you dont match then the year is worthless" you need to do a prelim or transitional year anyway. you can go into many fields from transitional.

 

[radoncmonkey]

how could it possibly hurt you to do more research? you have more time to go to interviews, interview season will be less stressful, plus you can improve you application. what would look better in the eyes of an interview committee, someone who has devoted a year to the field or someone doing an internship in internal medicine? this is just my personal view but I have known people in this exact situation who benefited greatly from spending a year in the lab then reapplied.

 

[radonc]

You will improve your application a lot more by doing research for a year than by having to deal with a prelim year.

I'm not saying its impossible to match if you do your prelim year right away. But the odds of getting that pgy2 spot that might open up are very low and you may not want to go to that program anyway. Last year a spot opened up at Maryland and an ENT took it. So other specialties do compete for these spots.

If you can finish one project during a prelim year then you could finish multiple projects during a year devoted to research. A year of quality research will greatly improve your application and open many doors for you.

Also what's the point of doing a transitional year then taking a year off. If you don't match then the year is worthless. If you do a prelim you can at least go into another field. This is bad advice.

Its makes no sense to me to go straight into your pgy1 year. I would not recommend it for anyone.

last year, the spot at UMD was taken by a radiation oncology resident, not an ENT resident. get your facts straight.

 

[radonc]

Its makes no sense to me to go straight into your pgy1 year. I would not recommend it for anyone.

please dont recommend anything, please. you havent matched yet you are giving horrible advice.

 

[radoncmonkey]

lets just take it easy, no one is saying one way is right one way is wrong. it depends on your goals in life. if you want to get into the best program that will prepare you for a future academic career then I believe doing research is the way to go. if you are interested in private practice and "just want to match" then go ahead and do a prelim year. there is no correct answer. i think somebody is a little too stressed out right now. non stressed people match 80% of the time.

 

[deleted4401]

How do you "totally disagree"? I responded to this statement.

"1. You don't have time to improve you application prior to applying."

Of course a year of research would likely provide you the opportunity to do more research. Two years of research, even better. Heck, take five years and get a PhD. Even better - drop out, try to get into Harvard's MD/PhD program, then apply. More is always better than less. I responded to you saying that you most certainly do have time to during the end of fourth year.

I think you are more interested being right and/or making a point then anything else. I'm done.

-S

 

[Thaiger75]

I agree with Steph in that you can't generalize on what is the best strategy. In large part, it will depend on what your preferences are and what situations or opportunities are available to you.

There are many scenarios that can pan out:

- Do a prelim year, try to get into a spot that opens up during the year
- Do a prelmin year, reapply during your intern year, take a year off doing whatever, then match
- Do a prelim year, do 1-2 years of research (ideally, this would be arranged at the end of med school or very early on in prelim year)
- Don't rank a prelmin year, do research for 1-2 years and reapply

We can argue all we want on what is the best way to go, but everyone will have their own opinions.

 

[Gfunk6]

I'm glad we could all come to a consensus that each situation needs to be evaluated individually. For people w/ a lot of research but so-so numbers, doing an additional research year is not going to add a lot to their application. However, if someone from a lesser-known school w/ awesome numbers but no research/connections applies and doesn't match, a research year would make a lot of sense.

This is truly an awesome field and I would encourage any who do not match to be persistent in trying to reach their goals. RadOnc is the holy grail of residencies and is worth the effort!

 

[stephew]

Folks, if you can't keep this civil do not post. thank you.

The truth is some people will not require doing an extra year of research. Rather than taking the generalized advice of a med student on the internet, someone in this position needs to sit down with a member of their radonc department, review their cv and get some advice. Also calling programs that interview you and asking what would help you is another good idea.

SimulD makes some very good points in rebuttal.
the OP's initial point that the stats here are a bit skewed above the mean is an important one but the specific advice about what do if you don't make should be taken with a GREAT deal of salt.