The ULTIMATE QUESTION? Please help

[rneree]

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😕

Thank you for stopping by to help me with a very challenging decison. 🙂 Why did I post here, because you are at one of the toughest parts of the game, and I want to know your views on family, medicine and if it's worth the "plungg"?

I am 27 and the mother of triplet daughters, all born WELL under 2lbs. I've always wanted to be a doctor, but wanted to be a mom more than anything. My husband Has ss type sicklecell anemia, so we had to go through a LOT to have our angels and went through a lot to bring them home with us. Now they are 14 months and the only birth defect they ALL have is DIMPLES 😍 . I am truely blessed and have a respect for God and Medicine beyond words!

Now that I have the Kids here I find my purpose is being questioned, how can I be the best mother and show the best example to them. By following my dreams, or by making sure I'm there for as many of their moments as I can?

I, like most of you, probably watched more discovery channel than cartoons growing up. Wanted to go into medicine as long as I can remember. But then decided to have a life first, explore the world, blaah blahh blahh..

Then I wanted children, especially knowing that my husband and I had virtually no chance of having them naturally, time was the enemy. So I gave up the idea of medicine for awhile.

Now I have been studying my butt off for the MCATs and LOVE it, but miss my family when a day goes by where my nose hasn't left the book. 😱

But everytime I decide that medicine is probably Not what I imagine it to be, as all the advice seems to say here and other places, I dream about it...No actually dream 😴 about being there watching heart operations, and having a clinic in the inner city to encourage minorities to go for their dreams, etc... I even dreamed I cut myself to practice sutures!

Before my children were born I was working as a financial advisor, LITERALLY earning 5-10,000/month with only working about 30hrs/week! And LOGIC tells me to work for myself and make the money while being home with my kids, VERY DOable for me. But then I have these dreams and feel this saddness like I've lost my childhood dream or like I'm not fufilling whatever purpose I have her on earth.

I need you guys/and girls, to help me weed through my thoughts and try to make a decision. Because right now not making a decision really sucks. I'm studying to try and get in a new medical school that is opening here locally, and my odds are fairly good of getting in. But is it truely the right move, for my husband, my kids, for me? 😕

How did you all decide to go for it? Are you happy with your decision? what would you do if you were in my shoes?

Godbless you all! You will become compassionate, well respected doctors, After all, your here listening to my situation and you actually CARE enough to anwser. 😍 and

R.Neree
Never forget the humanity behind the medicine.

 

[SkylineMD]

You have already stated that family is very important to you and how you miss your family very much while studying for the MCATs. Unfortunately, the medical school studying routine is quite vigorous and you may be studying moreso than you are right now (unless you are one of the few with great photographic memories). With medical school lasting 4 years and then another 3-6yrs in residency which may be just as demanding if not more, its really a decision that you need to make. Are you willing to make some sacrifices to attain your goal? Family is very important and you may not have as much time to spend with them if you are always in class and studying somewhere. I'm not saying its not possible - there are plenty of non-traditional students who balance family with school but they make sacrifices to do so. You'll just have to weigh out the next 4yrs of medical school + residency against your desire to be there for your family all the time... its a tough choice to make and you may receive a lot of advice from students on this board but the decision ultimately rests on you. You should do what is best for YOU

 

[SoCuteMD]

I think it's completely possible to be a wife, mother, and medical student - and there is at least one moderator on SDN who proves that every day. However, the overall message in your post seems to be that you want to spend as much time with your family as you can and be a medical student. In reality, something's gotta give. I think it's possible to approach med school as a 50-60 hour a week commitment during the preclinical years, but probably tough to get by on fewer hours. At 50 hrs/wk you will probably be just passing, and it may be by the skin of your teeth at times. As for the clinical years, I'm not there yet so I don't know, but you have a lot less autonomy. There will be nights during the clinical years and residency where you stay on call and don't return home until the next day - 30 hours after leaving your warm bed. Unless you are seriously superhuman you will probably not be able to be a great mom until you've had at least a few hours sleep.

I guess what concerns me in your post is that you mention that there is a school opening locally, and so it sounds like that would be your only application. This has been addressed in the pre-allo forum before, and admissions committees seem to question the true dedication of those who apply to only one school. Plus, you mention that you have a good chance of getting in, but you have yet to take the MCAT, so it's really way too early to tell.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Jedix123]

I do not envy the position that you are in. Of course it would be great for you to follow your dream to become a doctor. But looking back in my life, my parents have sacrificed a lot and one of most important virtues in both doctors and parents is self sacrifice. Good luck with your decision.

 

[rneree]

I've actually already been gauranteed a spot based on some past academic research and grades, I interviewed unofficially with the dean of admissions. As long as I get at least a 30 on mcats I am garaunteed in the school of my choice. I just don't want to let anyone down, my family, my husband, my kids, or the school. To make matters worse, the local news wants to interview me for going back to med. school with triplets...talk about pressure. I think I'll just continue studying and let it come to me. If I bomb this test, all else is pointless to discuss I guess.

Godbless and goodluck!

R.Neree

 

[gschl1234]

The first 2 years aren't too bad because you have relative control over your time and schedule. Most lectures are not required so you may choose to skip them to study on your own or spend your time as you wish. Your life gets more uncontrollable during clinical years and residency. Be aware that you will be required to work 30+ hour shifts. The residents have it much worse. When I interviewed for med school an orthopedic surgeon told me that medical training is "pain and then more pain so that you forget how bad the initial pain was."

 

[ms. a]

It's all about balance and careful juggling. I am also 27 and a mother, although I just have one kid. I started med school when she was almost 2 years old. Do I spend as much time with her as moms with "normal" jobs? No, but I make sure I spend time with her every day, even if I only see her for one hour (I'm on Surgery right now). Many days I see her more. I study when she's at day care or asleep. I know I have classmates that study more than I do and get better grades, but that's a sacrifice that I am completely willing to pay. I will never be the student who puts in extra hours to try to look good in front of my attending. Some day that may bite me, but I'd rather ensure I see my girl every day. I feel that it is very important for her to see me follow my dream of becoming a doctor. I want to show her that she, too, can do anything she puts her mind to.

Good luck!!

 

[NKMU]

OK, say you get accepted to that school next year. Then it's four years of school, plus minimum 3 years residency. That's eight years until you are done. Your kids will be about 9 years old then. While you're busy becoming a doctor, your kids will be busy growing up. You'll have a couple good years to spend time with them before they become jerky teenagers, BUT that's only if you choose a specialty that is relatively non-time-intensive.

Don't forget to factor in all the tuition money, cash you'll spend 3rd and 4th year eating, buying books, driving to work for negative pay, the potentially thousands of dollars spent on applications and interviews, etc. Then because you'll have to participate in the match, you may have to uproot your entire family and move elsewhere for further training. And although it would be great if someone as enthusiastic as you opened/worked at an inner city clinic, it will be very difficult to pay back all those (I presume) loan dollars on the salary of an inner city PCP. Don't forget that all that money could have been going toward tuition $$$ fund for three kids who will enter college at the same time. Of course if you already have plenty of money, then go for it.

I do envy your enthusiasm. That alone will get you pretty far, although even enthusiasm can sometimes run out of steam 6, 7, 8 years down the road. I'm still happy with the profession I chose, but I have years left to go, and in the end I still consider it just a job, not a calling. Fortunately it's a better job than most, and I started off as a 23 year-old with zero responsibilities. Good luck with your choice.

 

[beansandchips]

Hmmmm. I am sure that all the negative posts in the world will not dampen your enthusiasm. Even if they did, you would probably spend the rest of your life wondering 'what if...'

However, here is my opinion. I am not sure if I would do this again, given the chance. I don't HATE medicine, it is just that there are a hundred other jobs where I could make the same amount of money and feel very fulfilled. Heck, if I wanted to, I could volunteer with the local fire service/school and feel more fulfilled.

What I dislike most of all is that there is very little room for balance in medicine. I hate missing my daughter - she is everything to me, and a thousand times more fulfilling than any medical mystery. I also miss my wife, and it is sad to me that due to the financial and time constraints on us during medical school, we have grown apart slightly.

At the same time, there are a million dads out there who work long hours and have great relationships with their kids. I love my daughter, and I am her hero. My wife and I are working things out, and we will be fine.

Jeez, I go back and forth on this at least 100 times a day. Perhaps this is enough to deter you...If I could speak to myself 5 years ago, I am not sure if I would go into a career where so many people question their choice on a daily basis...

On a final note. I consider myself lucky that I have found a specialty that allows me to use my strengths, will hopefully allow balance in my life and will satisfy my needs of a profession. Just scares me to think what would have happened to me if I had not found this...!

Good luck...

Beans.

 

[excalibur]

medical training is "pain and then more pain so that you forget how bad the initial pain was."

Being a med student is like having an umbrella shoved up your butt, being an intern is like opening it

 

[excalibur]

On a serious note to the OP, I'm finishing up medical school, I'll be 28 when I graduate, I can't be more excited about the field I'm going into, but I would never do this again. Many pre-meds are disillusioned about what med school is like. You spoke about dreaming about heart surgeries. Really working on a heart surgery--making an actual contribution to the surgery--doesn't occur until you're an upper level surgical resident or a fellow. That's like 10 years from where you are now, and the work you do in those 10 years is brutal. Many aspirations that pre-meds have and want to fulfill by becoming a doctor simply don't become fulfilled until maybe 2nd or 3rd year of residency and beyond. All the while you study your tail off, work like a dog, and often get treated like crap.

If you were my relative and given your situation, I would advise against going through med school having done it myself.

Having said that, that's my advice. You are entitled to do whatever you want. You wanted my advice and there it is. I would support your decision if you decided to go 100%, but I just wanted you to know what it's really like, and how it will affect you and your family routinely in the next 8 years.

 

[footcramp]

don't do it. if i could take that 30 hr a week job, i would. also, it sounds like you want to do surgery. 3 kids and surgery is one hell of a juggling act. if you are having trouble now studying for the mcat, realize that a surgery residency is about 10 times worse.

 

[t33sg1rl]

You CAN do this... and if you plan ahead you can do it as painlessly as possibly. I don't know about this new school opening up, but here are some perks that other schools offer:

digital recordings of the lectures online, so you don't have to go to class
note taking services
extended plans where you take 3 years to do the first 2 years
taking a cushy research year between MSII/MSIII or between MSIII/MSIV
on campus child care

If this dean wants you, then you need to take your wonderful MCAT score to him, and ask him about special accomodations. Once you have a paper acceptance, you can also defer a year, so that your triplets will be a little older.

and finally the note of practicality: With three kids surgery is probably not in your future. You should think about what you want to specialize in and research the lifestyle. Most surgeons (full surgeons, completely finished with all training) work 60 or more hours a week. You may want to look into more family-friendly specialties that have moderate or no call, like family medicine, psych, pediatrics, radiology, pathology, emergency. If after your thinking, you really want to be a surgeon, then there's no point going to med school, because you'll be miserable.

 

[rneree]

You guys/girls are AWESOME! 😀 You have no idea how much your different outlooks and prespectives are helping me. Have I decided, No!

But what I have decided is that I'm going to continue to study 6-8hrs/day, both at home and AWAY from home, get a feel for what life will feel like without seeing my children as much as I want. Then I'm going to try to shadow like crazy with some of my non-study time, possibly another eye opener to the world of medicine and with more time away from my angel pies. I'm hoping that will give me a realistic "feel" for what I will be giving up and what I will be gaining. I am giving myself until the January MCAT to figure this all out.

In the meantime one of my neighbors offered me the opportunity to take over practice of one of his friends financial advisory firm. My own office, over 1200 clients, (which probably means at least 40hrs, but completely UP TO ME), and potential to make $100,000-about $300,000/year. My own staff, etc...

Life wouldn't be life if curved balls didn't keep coming at us. This doesn't make the decision any easier, but I'm going to keep my head in the books until I say "OK, Screw this! I want to spend my free time with my kids!" If I feel truely fufilled each time I study and understand and do rounds with residents at the hospital, perhaps that will mean it is truely "my calling", whatever that means?! ?? 😳

If it's not really feeling like "I have to do this!" then I think I will let it go and pray like crazy that the Financial Advicing position is still open...if not, I'll stay home with my angel pies for another year or two. Luckily my husband is extremely supportive of whatever i want to do. Which is more than I ever had growing up, he is my ROCK! But this is my decision, and I need to use as many tools as I can to make this one.

So thank you for being my lil' hammers, nails, and screw drivers! 👍 😀

Oh, as far as going into surgery, I either want to go family medicine, or OBGYN, with a future fellowship in Reproductive Endocronology going on into Stem Cell Research potentially (something I've been studying on my own for a few years now, due to my husband's Sickle Cell). I find it all fascinating! 🙄 Just wish I could skip OB/GYN to get there...don't think I can.

Thank you ! Keep it coming! 😛

 

[NKMU]

If you actually have the chance to walk into a successful financial advisory firm position, you'd have to be on crack not to take that over several miserable years of medical school/residency. A great salary, awesome hours, executive position... what's not to like? If you really want to participate in the medical field, do it indirectly... set up a free financial advisory service for medical students/residents like me. 🙂 Or maybe use your expertise/money/whatever to help other parents who (like you were) unable to conceive. Isn't it terribly expensive to have a baby when it requires the help of reproductive endocrinologists?

It does seem a little unbelievable that you're almost guaranteed a spot at medical school without formal application AND such a sweet-sounding job at the financial place. Take the financial job. Medicine is great, but I'll bet it's not like you dream about it being.

 

[excalibur]

You guys/girls are AWESOME! 😀 You have no idea how much your different outlooks and prespectives are helping me. Have I decided, No!

But what I have decided is that I'm going to continue to study 6-8hrs/day, both at home and AWAY from home, get a feel for what life will feel like without seeing my children as much as I want. Then I'm going to try to shadow like crazy with some of my non-study time, possibly another eye opener to the world of medicine and with more time away from my angel pies. I'm hoping that will give me a realistic "feel" for what I will be giving up and what I will be gaining. I am giving myself until the January MCAT to figure this all out.

In the meantime one of my neighbors offered me the opportunity to take over practice of one of his friends financial advisory firm. My own office, over 1200 clients, (which probably means at least 40hrs, but completely UP TO ME), and potential to make $100,000-about $300,000/year. My own staff, etc...

Life wouldn't be life if curved balls didn't keep coming at us. This doesn't make the decision any easier, but I'm going to keep my head in the books until I say "OK, Screw this! I want to spend my free time with my kids!" If I feel truely fufilled each time I study and understand and do rounds with residents at the hospital, perhaps that will mean it is truely "my calling", whatever that means?! ?? 😳

If it's not really feeling like "I have to do this!" then I think I will let it go and pray like crazy that the Financial Advicing position is still open...if not, I'll stay home with my angel pies for another year or two. Luckily my husband is extremely supportive of whatever i want to do. Which is more than I ever had growing up, he is my ROCK! But this is my decision, and I need to use as many tools as I can to make this one.

So thank you for being my lil' hammers, nails, and screw drivers! 👍 😀

Oh, as far as going into surgery, I either want to go family medicine, or OBGYN, with a future fellowship in Reproductive Endocronology going on into Stem Cell Research potentially (something I've been studying on my own for a few years now, due to my husband's Sickle Cell). I find it all fascinating! 🙄 Just wish I could skip OB/GYN to get there...don't think I can.

Thank you ! Keep it coming! 😛

There are a couple of things here. I realize that you and your family were greatly influenced by the help of a reproductive endocrinologist, and that has to be the impetus on why the field is so attractive to you. However, you are considering a fellowship without even having taken the MCAT. That's like saying you want to be in the House of Representatives when you're pre-law. From your posts, you seem like you want time for your family. I simply don't see it in OB/GYN. It might be number two behind surgery in terms of worst hours. Again, to get to the level where the doctor was who helped you and your family is like 11-12 years down the road. I can tell that you are yearning for fulfillment, but I think what you're seeking comes down much later in the road, and I just want you to be aware of that. There are very few instances in med school, at least for me, where I got "that feeling" of helping someone that many of us yearn for before starting med school. Only now near the end, can I see that I will be getting "that feeling" with patients in the future, and that's probably still 2 years away when I'm doing what I want to do for the rest of my life. So for you, you have to consider if you want to spend the next 5-6 years of taking MCAT, going through the application process, hoping you get accepted on your first attempt (b/c this is not a guarantee), slaving over books for your first two years of med school and for the dreaded STEP 1, then spend time rotating through specialties where you spend your days looking up labs, writing notes, holding retractors, and doing things that you really don't want to be doing (paging DR. DRE), to then become an intern where you are the bottom of the barrel and get dumped on by everybody, to one day, maybe 8+ years later to get where you want to be. This is obviously your decision, but I'm just letting you know that a lot of medical school sucks, and it sucks hard where as a pre-med it's tough to see that and most pre-meds just see the docs who are done with the sucky part.

Also, enjoying studying for the MCAT or love studying for it really has no reflection on med school. You said you LOVE studying for MCAT, and it seems like you're fascinated by the material, but the material in MCAT really has nothing to do with "life" in med school.

Someone posted earlier what made the most sense. The dude who posted about taking extended periods of time to graduate med school, so as to graduate in 5-6 years instead of 4, and he also mentioned the specialties, which would be best for your situation like Emerg, path, family and so on. With family, you'll be making what you would be in this financial advisory job, and I just don't know if you're gonna get that satisfaction factor you're looking for. It just doesn't make sense to me to bust your hump for so long to attain a job that pays what you were making 8 years ago when your kids were infants. The only reason to do that was if the job had incredible meaning for you, and if you think family has that, go for it.

Also, I wanted to stress that 4 months shadowing and studying at home and away from home for MCAT is not a real good indicator of what it's going to be like with or without kids in med school and beyond. It's unfortunately pretty poor, but I totally understand that that's what you got at this stage in your life, and I know you want to try something to get a feel of what it's like. The only real way to get a feel for it is to go all the way through med school. Many pre-med students spend a couple of days a week with some doctor for like 3 months and they enjoy their time with this doctor whose been out of residency for like 15 years. The pre-med student thinks, "Wow, this is so f'n cool!" Unfortunately, there's no real way of seeing this doctor's entire journey of how he/she got there from day 1, and the best way to see that is during clinical rotations in 3rd and 4th year. During rotations, you get a glimpse of life at all the different levels of training in all the specialties.

Finally, let me just say, that it may sound like I'm trying to dissuade you from trying this. I'm just trying to allow you to make a decision with somewhat of a better idea of the road ahead. I felt like your vision was a little askew, and I just wanted to tell you a little bit of what it's really like. I would like nothing more than for you to achieve this dream you have and for you to be happier than you ever thought possible. I think it sounds great if you would become a reproductive endocrinolgist and help people as this physician helped you. I just don't want that experience superceding the multiple factors that come into play. In these next 4 months that you're deciding, try talking to as many med students and interns in your area, hopefully ones who had young children starting out. This may be the best glimps you get at what it's really like.

 

[footcramp]

typical hours as a surgical intern:
monday 6am - 6pm
tuesday on call 6am to wednesday 7am (25 hrs)
rest of wednesday off
thursday 6am - 6pm
friday on call 6am to saturday 7am
sunday 6am to noon
total = 80 hrs
call every 3 nights

as you can see, it's not quite equivalent to 8 hrs a day. in fact, 8 hrs a day is a luxury that you will only have during your first two years of medical school, and for a few select residencies.

you have a job offer that will get you up to 300,000 with 40 hrs a week. you have 3 children who seem to be your #1 priority. if i were in your shoes, i'd take the job without a second thought, no regrets. i would ONLY go into medicine if i were you, if my LOVE for the job outweighs 1) a lot of quality time with your children for at least 6 years (ms3/4 + ob residency). your quality time WILL decrease SIGNIFICANTLY. it won't go away completely, but there are only 24 hrs in a day. 2) 160k in tuition unless you have a scholarship 3) ~2.2 million dollars in lost salary, more if you count investments and compound interest (300k x 8 yrs - 4 yrs @ 40k/yr) 4) being treated like a child for 3+ years in medical school. if you can overcome ALL of that, then go to medical school and live your dream.

i think a lot of premeds are overly concerned with "CAN i do it" rather than "SHOULD i do it." set aside the ego for a second. let's say you score a 45 on the MCAT. let's say you score at the 99th percentile on the usmle. graduate the top of the class. is it really worth it? i know what my answer would be...

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Also check out MomMD if you havn't already.

 

[rneree]

Thank you again for the feedback, I hope excalibur and footcramp come back to read my review of their posts:

Oh, and by the way, I know about mommd.com, thanks 😉

excalibur, you seem to have the attitude that most med students here have that medicine is all to crap, a lot of work, and everyone who thinks there's anything beautiful or special to it is full of ignorance and pre-med bliss! Let me first inform you that I have enough life experience and intellect to know EXACTLY what it takes to become a doctor. I KNOW that it takes x, y, z years to become whatever type of specialist there is out there. I really hate when people in Medical school have the complex that people not in medical school are complete bone heads that don't know what they're getting into. I have lived more life than most of my med student counter-parts, and that believe it or not, makes a difference. I have done research for the national science foundation, and recieved several offers for full academic scholarships. When I say I like to study, it's not because I LIKE the subjects for the MCAT, I like to do anything that is towards the betterment of myself.

By the way, NO MATTER WHAT you do in life, it is constantly about learning! ANYTHING! Unless you do a career that is completely brainless, or don't care about advancing or being better at what you do.

I think young people (not in age, but in experience) take so much for granted. How blessed you are to be given an opportunity to study, to learn, to BECOME whatever it is you want in life. And now you are there, and you look at your life as a pathetic excuse for existence, and quickly tell people to run to the hills! Have you ever held a baby dying in your arms, have you ever prayed for the wisdom to understand why someone is in excruating pain, have you ever yearned to give a family good news or help to ease the bad. Have you ever been told your child has a brain bleed, or needs heart surgery, or will most likely die. Have you watched a friend dye of cardiomyopathy, and researched every fact nook and cranny to save her, or watched a parent lose all their hair during chemo. Until you have been the patient, the friend, the daughter or the wife, you will never understand the power of your role. You see training and "feeling" like the low man/woman on the totum pole. To this I say, try being even lower...THE PATIENT trying to understand what in God's name you're telling them and why this is happening to them.

You SHOULD have to work hard at this, you have someone's life in your hands. and when you've been there in everyway, you admire the training, you want more of it, and you hope it is harder than the lessons each family will have to learn. You are their hope to life, health, and sometimes the role of that is unimaginable for those who truely don't understand their importance. Be realistic with me, GREAT I love that...I need to know that school is LOTS of work, and that there are things I can't imagine now; but you don't have to completely down a career that you've been lucky enough to study...because you have the choice of whichever path you want to take and whichever path you want to jump off of.

No one is offering me $300,000+ to work for them because I don't work hard, Life is hard and nothing will EVER be free in it. Will the pros outway the cons, don't know now...maybe will never know. But it's not because I will ever lose respect for the few doctors that bring children home to their mothers, or their wife home to their husband...that is the doctor I wish for each of you in your life...and that it the doctor I hope you will become if you decide to stay on this road. Don't stay for debt, because you could make a crap load more working for a pharmacutical company. Someday you'll understand it...maybe I'm assuming too much that you haven't already experienced things like this in your life. But be careful to knock a profession until you've been truely touched by it.

Footcramp, funny name by the way! Dare I ask your speciality 😀 Thank you for your advice, I'm always glad to hear propectives that tell the facts, the truth and not OVERKILL in the neg. department. Still in limbo, I must admit, I do like money. I've made a few people rich in my day, and would hate to lose so much to medschool and realize I can't stand being away from my little ones.

Just a bit of advice, although this is probably not hitting the eyes of the right audience. If you can, if you want, have kids first. They change EVERYTHING. They make you want to be better, to know better, and to put them first...no matter who you are, they effect you in the most amazing way. They make this decision both easy and hard! Just like the commercial says "having a baby chgs everything!" Try having THREE!

Smile...you're destined to be a doctor...try to be a good one! 😉

R.Neree

 

[rneree]

I should Not take all this vent out on excalibur...as I meant it for several 100% pessimistic doctors to be. I think she has a fair right to her opinion, as does everyone...but every once in awhile people who hate such a profoundly important profession just tick me off...even if I DON'T for personal reasons, decide to follow their route.

We should all feel blessed that we get to even "ponder" decisions like this in our life. We are one of the countries who is not fighting for just a liberal education, but can exceed with will power in nearly anything. Quite lucky!

R.Neree

 

[Ambs]

As a med student who is not bitter and rather eager to be in this profession, I think that "excalibur" actually gave very real and very sound advice.

 

[footcramp]

i thought your post was inspiring. it at least made me think twice. you are right, we are very lucky to be able to choose our own path in life, and also have access to a world that others only get glimpses of.

i, like most others, went into medicine to "help people." i still like helping people very much. it makes me feel good, it makes others happy, it's a win win thing. maybe it's just me, but i think a great majority of medicine isn't helping people in the "pull you out of the fire" way but more like the "helped my grandma cross the street" way. that is to say, there isn't a lot of heroics involved. just a lot of small things. like when you control someone's blood pressure. get people to exercise and quit smoking. those make you feel good, but it doesn't give me a rush.

all of this is not to say that i don't enjoy what i do. like i said it makes me feel good. but it does make me think that what i do as a medical student, and will do as a doctor, is not a special sort of "helping". it's not much different than anyone who does good deeds. and i come to realize that i can help people in so many different ways, other than by being a doctor. and i wonder, why can't i contribute in other ways? ways that are less demanding of me. where i can also have a real life of my own.

you said you have made others very rich. you like your kids. you like money. being there for your kids helps them in ways that nobody else can. and you can still help others in many ways as well.

just a thought.

that being said, i'm applying to general surgery.

 

[rneree]

i thought your post was inspiring. it at least made me think twice. you are right, we are very lucky to be able to choose our own path in life, and also have access to a world that others only get glimpses of.

i, like most others, went into medicine to "help people." i still like helping people very much. it makes me feel good, it makes others happy, it's a win win thing. maybe it's just me, but i think a great majority of medicine isn't helping people in the "pull you out of the fire" way but more like the "helped my grandma cross the street" way. that is to say, there isn't a lot of heroics involved. just a lot of small things. like when you control someone's blood pressure. get people to exercise and quit smoking. those make you feel good, but it doesn't give me a rush.

all of this is not to say that i don't enjoy what i do. like i said it makes me feel good. but it does make me think that what i do as a medical student, and will do as a doctor, is not a special sort of "helping". it's not much different than anyone who does good deeds. and i come to realize that i can help people in so many different ways, other than by being a doctor. and i wonder, why can't i contribute in other ways? ways that are less demanding of me. where i can also have a real life of my own.

you said you have made others very rich. you like your kids. you like money. being there for your kids helps them in ways that nobody else can. and you can still help others in many ways as well.

just a thought.

that being said, i'm applying to general surgery.

Points well made, I understand completely what your saying. I have had clients break down and cry about how they're going into debt taking care of their sick mother, or how they want to make a future for themselves, and that touches me deeply too. I guess there are a lot of things that we can do in the world that make a difference. I love being there for my girls and showing them what is possible with their lives. I just don't know if I should be the example or be the mother...I guess both. I will definately think about what you've said here, makes a lot of sense to me.

But trust me when I say, one day, and then often days, you will make an impact on someones life and it will make the professions pay off so great. You are very brave, as all medical students are, to take on this challenge and fulfill your desire to become a doctor. There are so many things you can do with that, and surgery will be awesome! Do you ever watch the show "First Days" on discovery channel? I watch that all the time and if it shows U of M residence I usually know at least half of them. i spent 2 months in the hospital, and then my babies spent an additional 3 months. So it warms my heart to see the hospital and residence that took part in them coming home. Someday someone will truely appreciate what you do. I hope it is you...AND your patients. 🙂

R.Neree

 

[excalibur]

Thank you again for the feedback, I hope excalibur and footcramp come back to read my review of their posts:

Oh, and by the way, I know about mommd.com, thanks 😉

excalibur, you seem to have the attitude that most med students here have that medicine is all to crap, a lot of work, and everyone who thinks there's anything beautiful or special to it is full of ignorance and pre-med bliss! Let me first inform you that I have enough life experience and intellect to know EXACTLY what it takes to become a doctor. I KNOW that it takes x, y, z years to become whatever type of specialist there is out there. I really hate when people in Medical school have the complex that people not in medical school are complete bone heads that don't know what they're getting into. I have lived more life than most of my med student counter-parts, and that believe it or not, makes a difference. I have done research for the national science foundation, and recieved several offers for full academic scholarships. When I say I like to study, it's not because I LIKE the subjects for the MCAT, I like to do anything that is towards the betterment of myself.

By the way, NO MATTER WHAT you do in life, it is constantly about learning! ANYTHING! Unless you do a career that is completely brainless, or don't care about advancing or being better at what you do.

I think young people (not in age, but in experience) take so much for granted. How blessed you are to be given an opportunity to study, to learn, to BECOME whatever it is you want in life. And now you are there, and you look at your life as a pathetic excuse for existence, and quickly tell people to run to the hills! Have you ever held a baby dying in your arms, have you ever prayed for the wisdom to understand why someone is in excruating pain, have you ever yearned to give a family good news or help to ease the bad. Have you ever been told your child has a brain bleed, or needs heart surgery, or will most likely die. Have you watched a friend dye of cardiomyopathy, and researched every fact nook and cranny to save her, or watched a parent lose all their hair during chemo. Until you have been the patient, the friend, the daughter or the wife, you will never understand the power of your role. You see training and "feeling" like the low man/woman on the totum pole. To this I say, try being even lower...THE PATIENT trying to understand what in God's name you're telling them and why this is happening to them.

You SHOULD have to work hard at this, you have someone's life in your hands. and when you've been there in everyway, you admire the training, you want more of it, and you hope it is harder than the lessons each family will have to learn. You are their hope to life, health, and sometimes the role of that is unimaginable for those who truely don't understand their importance. Be realistic with me, GREAT I love that...I need to know that school is LOTS of work, and that there are things I can't imagine now; but you don't have to completely down a career that you've been lucky enough to study...because you have the choice of whichever path you want to take and whichever path you want to jump off of.

No one is offering me $300,000+ to work for them because I don't work hard, Life is hard and nothing will EVER be free in it. Will the pros outway the cons, don't know now...maybe will never know. But it's not because I will ever lose respect for the few doctors that bring children home to their mothers, or their wife home to their husband...that is the doctor I wish for each of you in your life...and that it the doctor I hope you will become if you decide to stay on this road. Don't stay for debt, because you could make a crap load more working for a pharmacutical company. Someday you'll understand it...maybe I'm assuming too much that you haven't already experienced things like this in your life. But be careful to knock a profession until you've been truely touched by it.

Footcramp, funny name by the way! Dare I ask your speciality 😀 Thank you for your advice, I'm always glad to hear propectives that tell the facts, the truth and not OVERKILL in the neg. department. Still in limbo, I must admit, I do like money. I've made a few people rich in my day, and would hate to lose so much to medschool and realize I can't stand being away from my little ones.

Just a bit of advice, although this is probably not hitting the eyes of the right audience. If you can, if you want, have kids first. They change EVERYTHING. They make you want to be better, to know better, and to put them first...no matter who you are, they effect you in the most amazing way. They make this decision both easy and hard! Just like the commercial says "having a baby chgs everything!" Try having THREE!

Smile...you're destined to be a doctor...try to be a good one! 😉

R.Neree

My vision of med school before I entered it and now that I'm finishing it are TOTALLY different. This is the main message I was trying to get across. If you know what it's like...great! 👍

In your first post, you kept talking about how much you love spending time with your kids, and you were thinking about going to med school to have an impact in people's lives as a physician. Yet you were concerned about how much time it might take away from your children. It would seem like the sacrifice would be worth it if you could have an impact in patients' lives. Some people think that you start having an impact while you're a med student, which FOR THE MOST PART is not true. So I was trying to get across that in med school, you really don't make that much difference in patients' management or care. I thought I would be doing more at this stage of my training before I entered med school, but now I realize that it's just not the case. I was trying to tell you that the "feeling of goodness" you do for patients does not come as often as one might think in med school. For many students, med school and internship become a hurdle they grind through to eventually get where they want to be and do what they want to do--to have that impact in patient's lives. Many students do not realize this and their visions of med school also change as they go through it. I expressed all this to you b/c I'm being honest and you may not have realized the little impact you have as a med student in patient care. I know I certainly did not realize it prior to entering med school as did many of my classmates. BOTTOM LINE: You start having an impact in patient care as an intern, which for you may be 5 years down the line, and it is here that you'll start getting that sense of reward. If you know all this...again...that's great! Many people going into med school don't! 🙂

Rneree, of course, there are moments that I will cherish forever as a med student, and all med students realize (or should at least) the impact they will have in people's lives as doctors. I do feel priveliged to get the education that I'm getting. I love medicine. I couldn't do anything but this, and I'm as compassionate as they come. However, there are many negative aspects of med school that outweigh the positive aspects for me at least. The positive aspects of MEDICINE do not really happen until AFTER med school. You're first two years of med school which consist of read, read, read, test, test, test can't be considered positive, can it? Sure you learn interesting material, but half of the material you realize is pointless (soft tissue tumors!! 😱 that lecture was brutal ), but you still need to study it, b/c you're gonna get tested on it. It's just something you have to do to see the results AFTER med school. Rotations (3rd and 4th yr) are hit or miss. Most of the hits occur in 4th year when you're doing what you want. Time devoted to studying and away from loved ones (esp when time is devoted to something you really don't want to do), negative income, and abuse from upper levels, just to name a few bad things, take their toll, and it becomes difficult to hold on to those things that you truly love about the path you chose. The only real motivating factor is the thought that it will all be worth it in the end, and the end for me is like 5 years away when I'm done with residency. Although I have a feeling that residency won't be so much a "hurdle" as med school, b/c I'll be studying and doing what I want to.

So to wrap it up...I don't think you're a bone head or that you don't have the intellect. I realize you have had many life experiences, some of which have involved the role of physicians. I was never trying to insult you by telling you about "med school life". You say you already know all this. So it must be nothing new. It's not that I felt that pre-meds have no idea of what they're getting into, but more like they don't realize certain "things", b/c many I have spoken with do not. If you do decide to go into med school, I'm sure you'll have your share of gripes as well (as most of us do), but I'm sure you'd come out of it AOK (as most of us do), and hopefully you can maintain the enthusiasm you have now throughout your training.

Finally, rneree, let me say that medicine is great...med school, not so much There are plenty of my med school counterparts out there who get exactly what I mean!

 

[gschl1234]

typical hours as a surgical intern:
monday 6am - 6pm
tuesday on call 6am to wednesday 7am (25 hrs)
rest of wednesday off
thursday 6am - 6pm
friday on call 6am to saturday 7am
sunday 6am to noon
total = 80 hrs
call every 3 nights

What hospital is this!?! At ours its more like:
Weekdays not on call: 5AM-7PM (interns see all patients on census during pre-rounding, rounding at 6:30AM)
On call days: 5AM-noon to early afternoon next day (30+ hours)
Weekend call: 7AM-noon to early afternon next day (rounding at 8AM)
Not sure of call schedule. Looks like Q2 to Q4.

And in some groups MS3 have to stay till 6PM post-call (36+ hours) because we "can't kill anyone yet." But I guess it's nothing compared to the old days when residents had "black weekends" of 60+ hours.

 

[rneree]

👍

Awesome prespective excalibur, I really enjoyed reading that post. I know you are so right in a lot of ways and that's what makes this decision so tough.

For instance, the lower you are on the totum pole the more they seem to want to kick you. I just moved from Michigan to Savannah GA and in Michigan I was "SO IN" when it comes to being able to shadow, work in the hospital, sit and have lunch for the 20th time with dean of admissions and shoot the breeze with every pediatric surgean who had a few minutes to spare. Now I'm in GA, and they are like "Who are you, we don't want you in our hospitals, we don't want you shadowing, people don't even like to be seen by our RESIDENTS, so Bahhh Humbug to You!" It so crazy here, hence the reason why it has one of the largest Physician Shortages in the Country.

So Michigan i think is one of those amazing places that embrace medical education and encourage even it's youngest hopefuls to pursue their dreams. I have to remember that every poster here is coming from different places with different mindsets to deal with in the medical world. So please excuse my ignorance in that regard. Oh how I wish I could go back to Michigan...it does take a lifetime for an inch of respect sometimes.

In the meanwhile, I have to meet with the Managing Director of the Company that wants to hire me on Tuesday. My heart is not 100% in it, but what if a few bitter years of medicine make it all NOT worth it in the end. At least I don't have to deal with administrators, or feeling like the heel of someones foot every year until I'm a senior physician...what like 10yrs away. It's hard to imagine being treated like a child when at 27 and growing up in poverty I now own a half million dollar home have zero debt and enough money in the bank to be pretty proud of. That will mean nothing, as you've said, when I start at the low "grading" scale that they put young physicians.

Tell me if I'm Right 👍 👎

1st Pre-med, ohh you haven't even got a degree LOSER!
Then Post-premed, Well, you did graduate but what about those MCAT's LOSER!
Then First year, WELL You got in, but let's see how smart you REALLY are?? :
Then 2nd Year, Yeah you think you're smart...well wait til boards are passed!! Then we'll see if you're really worth anything!
3rd Year, You're not even out of medschool! You know nothing, Go do an ENIMA!
4th year, Ok, It looks like you're going to make it...PLeasse do a residency with us..... so we can give you 90% of our call and 100% of our pain in the rear patients. 🙄

Intern...Move Loser! Work all my crap patients, I've got to piss on you to make up for all the crap I had to take! It's tradition... 😱
Resident...Ok, patients are all yours Don't KILL ANYONE TODAY or they'll SUE! By the way, what are all 19 symptoms of xyz disorder that you learned 3 years ago!
Cheif Resident...You're "Suppose" to know EVERYTHING, even though you've spent the last 6-7years being told to get out of the way!


All to get to that one level of respect...boy, no wonder I'm so terrified of this decision! $300,000 a year, my own secretary, and office of my own...only dealing with one pissed off person at a time "priceless"!

Am I way off base here, is the skeptism already oozzing out of my ears!

R.Neree

 

[emidesu]

One thing that makes first year easier is to do a master's level postbacc. Of course, you have to put in an extra year this way, but I am finding that my post-bacc makes the difference between getting 8 hours of sleep and being completely overwhelmed (most people).

 

[excalibur]

Yeah, rneree, that's pretty much right with your timeline.

It just takes a long time to get where you want to, and through most of med school there's a very little sense of reward. The biggest sense of reward you get is that you passed your classes and rotations, but in terms of making that difference in the patient, those moments are few and far between for many med students.

I'm sure there are other options you've entertained in regard to helping others, or doing something medically related without having to go through 8 years of edcuation. So as to keep that financially secure job, and provide some meaningful care to those in need on the side. I'm curious if you have, and what those ideas may be?

Good luck on Tuesday. Keep in touch

 

[Ross434]

People should look at enjoying the journey no matter how difficult, rather than just focusing on the end result. I think some people here are a little shortsighted.

I would think that just the fact that you are moving up and gaining a little more knowledge and responsibility every year would be rewarding enough in itself, and the idea of facing new challenges and looking back on significant accomplishments you've made would be motivating and refreshing, even if there is no other concrete "reward" for a long time to come.

 

[rneree]

Excalibur,
Yes I think there are many ways in which I contribute, as a financial advisor I've been able to make a real difference, volunteering my time with the Altizmers association, Children's Miracle Network, Kidney foundation, etc...I was lucky enough to work for a company that gave a lot back to the community. But now that I'm in GA things may be a bit less rewarding, unless I give that extra bit of effort.

I think the last poster was correct in saying enjoy the journey. Luckily residency IS paid, so you can consider it more of a job than stricky academic. It is doing what you love, helping people, and FINALLY a bit of a paycheck....Any job you get in any field is going to be a long learning curve, and that can sometimes be the fun part. All the nurses, aids, and PT people, etc...have been working years longer than you but make the same pay which you will far EXCEED at some point...and they probably do more work...not more hours lucky for them...But they will hit a wall, where as you won't. You can invent, create, cure, dictate, publish, teach, etc...Personal sacrifices come for great success.

You WILL make a difference, I think you can Choose to make a difference in whatever you do. But sometimes it will take your own buring desire to go that extra mile. Like me, I don't make money from working with sick people as a Financial Advisor, but I support their cause, educate as much as possible and give people the tools to improve their own quality of life.

Now medicine, It will ALWAYS be a passion. But whether or not it's the only way I can make a difference? I think your right Excallibur...there are lots of things I can do that won't cost me $100,000plus in tuition or losing precious time with my children. I think I will take the job next week, assuming the offer is written in stone. Give it a try, and worse comes to worse, I'll just save enough to go to med school and then quit 🙂... It is very sad to potentially end a dream that I've had for such a long time. I will continue to pray on it, and if they decide not to offer me this job I will take the freakin' mcats...what do I have to lose. Other than sleepless nights, short-term memory loss, and potentially part of my sanity. 😉 But then again, I have triplets so that's already occurred! 😀

I guess I should find a new home for my Med Exam review DVD's and books, and practice tests! My husband says to keep them for a few more months, Just in Case I hope next week God gives me the anwser I've been praying for...how can I best serve you! I hope I'm listening closely and understand what he might be trying to tell me.

I think some other things I might try to do will be educating children on education, finance, and ambition. Georgia has the second Highest drop out rate in the Nation! Like 40%!!! I have to help, even if only small in part. And I want to help with Literacy programs too...the literacy rate here is also not the greatest...I guess there are lots we can all do to play our part in society.

I had a neighbor say to me...why do you want to work, I LIKE staying home with my kids!" Well, to that I said, so do I but I want to teach my girls that you can make a contribution to society beyond only your front door. That you can be a great person AND a great Mother...and you can do anything you want in this life and you should take full advantage of that privilage!

She had nothing left to say, but insists that it is a shame to leave your kids for even a moment! Of course she also spends half the day looking like her hair is about to fall out!

R.Neree

 

[DIVA01]

I don't think you are in such a bad situation right now, like you said you have lived your life, seen the alternative workstyles to medicine and now from what I gather are looking to pursue your own personal goals and possibly find more meaning in your life.

I'm in third year right now, and if I could do it all over again I would do this: Finish undergrad, do something else for a while, have my children, wait until they were about 10-15 years of age, and then go back to medical school. At that point, your children are independent and you were there for the most critical years of their life. At the same time, now you can focus on what you want to do for the rest of your life without worrying about the time commitment.

So my advice would be to wait until your children are a little bit older, and then go for your dreams!!

 

[DIVA01]

this is a STUDENT doctor website..this is not the best time of our lives..and let me tell you.. physicians LOVE to complain about the amount of debt they're in, how it "sooo wasn't worth it", how many sacrifices they had to make, etc. etc.

And it is true that you will miss out on meaningful events, and that you will be in debt. But, almost always, if we really sit down and think about it we couldn't imagine doing anything else. Every job has its ups and downs. Many of us went straight from undergrad to medical school so never really knew what it was like to have a real job and how much better you have it in medicine.

So, what I'm saying is, take everything we say with a grain of salt. (including me) 🙂

Furthermore, i would say do a lot of shadowing of DIFFERENT KINDS of physicians to know what their day-to-day life is really like. and preferably attendings not residents.

 

[DIVA01]

having a lot of afterthoughts today....

i think, in general, people are kidding themselves when they say that you can do other jobs to help people just as much as being a physician can. it is true that there are professions where you can have an immense effect on people's lives i.e. teachers, social workers, lawyers etc. and it is true that many doctors hardly have a positive impact on people's lives.

however, it is also true that with the knowledge and power that a physician has, if wielded correctly and passionately, there is the potential to make a huge difference!! things that students think are "simple" and not having an effect on the patient are huge in an individual's life. the most likely thing to encourage a smoker to quit is not a public service ad, not a loved one's complaints, it's a physician's recommendations. that's simple right? bread and butter primary care? but that is HUGE in terms of a patient's life-- you are preventing their kids' asthma, preventing a lifestyle of increased risks, helping that person live to see their grandkids graduations. just 5 minutes of your time to explain why you want a patient to quit smoking and do some cessation counseling can do that.

physicians don't realizethe power and difference they have and make because they are not on the receiving end. look at the faces of patients in the waiting room in a doctor's office, in an ER. anxious, nervous, worried. and simply by a reassuring conversation, an simplified explanation of physiology, or a pat on the back-- those things are gone. an oncologist's relationship with his/her patients can completely change a person's life--no matter whether they live or die. sometimes you can't help the patient, sometimes you have to be there to help the patient accept loss, sometimes the patient abuses your position. sure. but there's the good and the bad in everything.


maybe i'm overidealistic. but i HAVE seen good doctors have this kind of effect on patients. i've seen bad doctors mismanage these kinds of patients as well. but the point is-- the potential is there!