The URM Advantage

[tarheel2011]

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[Whatyousay]

As a URM who had quite a bit of success on the interview trail and garnering acceptances I will chime in.

Congratulations on your most recent acceptance.

50+ posts into a URM thread without a flame war. This has to be a new record.

 

[SoonerFromTexas]

Congratulations on your most recent acceptance.

50+ posts into a URM thread without a flame war. This has to be a new record.

 

[jessiemsy]

Let's just remember what the purpose of URM status is in the first place. To increase the number of black/hispanic doctors so that they will treat black/hispanic patients. Like it or not, many of these patients prefer to be seen by someone who looks like them or speaks their language (regardless of if said doctor comes from a middle class background or not.)

And the other thing is this- the medical world is all about relationships. Kissing this attending's behind, knowing so and so to get on the research team to get published. URM's do not have these connections or opportunities. I think to myself so often how difficult it's going to be find a mentor in med school. What do I have in common with an old white guy? (I'm a young black/hispanic woman, so not much). And these are the people who dominate medicine. By even considering URM status, it at least helps us get in the door.

And yes, of course it's frustrating to see people with lower "stats" than you get in. It's frustrating for me to see rich white kids with connections who aren't that bright get in. And trust me, I tutor many of these kids, and I see it over and over again. So get down off your high horse, stop assuming that these white candidates are so qualified and URM's are not. And while we're at it, stop assuming that because you scored 1 point higher than someone on the MCAT that you're going to be a better doctor than them, because that's just delusional.

 

[Neurosis]

Reflecting on what Techmed07 said- I didn't interview with even ONE black guy this season. I mean, that's F'd up.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gpP4zieZ9g[/YOUTUBE]

 

[HoltMD]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y9QbntoyCA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[HealthHare]

To say nothing of the fact that anyone can be disadvantaged, regardless of race, the thing that's wrong with the system is that, in general, it's helping minorities who already come from middle class families.

Like a couple of other posters have said, these "rich", "uppity", "Cosby Show", "Dads are Uncle Phil" minorities you speak of are EXCEPTIONS not the rule.

Yes it sucks that there is a chance that a smart and hard working disadvantaged white/asian kid might get overlooked, but I don't believe that's the rule either. If a disadvantaged white/asian kid can prove through essays and EC's that his or her experiences can add diversity to a medical school class and the field in general then they should not have a hard time getting in. From my personal experience, I feel that most whites and asians that complain about AA are cookie cutter applicants that are lazy, and have not done enough in the form of grades, EC's, MCAT, etc to differentiate themselves. Also, I notice that many minorities that AA tend to also to be lazy, and forget that AA is a way of rectifying past societal wrongs, not a free meal card. Both the former and latter are the elephants in the room that muddy the good intentions of AA, and make hard working minorities like myself and the MANY like me look bad.

 

[HealthHare]

Also to add. If we were to do this income based AA then what's stopping poor whites/asians from getting in with worse stats compared to their richer peers. They would be the new URMs right? I guarantee that you would see similar graphs showing poor whites/asians having an "easier" time getting in.

Point is regardless of color, poor people have less access to good educational resources, and thus have a disadvantage at the UG level and in standardized tests.

I would bet a lot of money that if we were to have the data for lower income whites/asians that get into medical school (and yes they do exist) you would see substantial worse GPA/MCAT. Economics work both ways people.

 

[Stumpyman]

The following may be worth noting:


From 2009 to 2011, with a 3.20 to 3.39 GPA and a 27-29 MCAT,

==>17.6% of Asian applicants were accepted.

==>23.8% of white applicants were accepted.

==>54.5% of Hispanic or Latino applicants were accepted.

==>83.3% of black applicants were accepted.

Thanks LizzyM!



Waaaaait a minute.......

 

[wolfie77]

The following may be worth noting:


From 2009 to 2011, with a 3.20 to 3.39 GPA and a 27-29 MCAT,

==>17.6% of Asian applicants were accepted.

==>23.8% of white applicants were accepted.

==>54.5% of Hispanic or Latino applicants were accepted.

==>83.3% of black applicants were accepted.

These stats are available to everyone. Are you going to synthesize some sort of analysis or make any point?

 

[HealthHare]

The following may be worth noting:


From 2009 to 2011, with a 3.20 to 3.39 GPA and a 27-29 MCAT,

==>17.6% of Asian applicants were accepted.

==>23.8% of white applicants were accepted.

==>54.5% of Hispanic or Latino applicants were accepted.

==>83.3% of black applicants were accepted.

1)Inb4 Can't tell if really LizzyM or AA troll impostor meme

2) This data doesn't exclude HBCU's which skews acceptance rates.

 

[mipp0]

1)Inb4 Can't tell if really LizzyM or AA troll impostor meme

2) This data doesn't exclude HBCU's which skews acceptance rates.

inb4 isn't it obvious based on post count?

 

[HealthHare]

inb4 isn't it obvious based on post count?

An obvious troll is obvious

 

[Techmed07]

1)Inb4 Can't tell if really LizzyM or AA troll impostor meme

2) This data doesn't exclude HBCU's which skews acceptance rates.

The raw numbers instead of percentages would actually be better. Haha

 

[k2on3hru]

Let's just remember what the purpose of URM status is in the first place. To increase the number of black/hispanic doctors so that they will treat black/hispanic patients. Like it or not, many of these patients prefer to be seen by someone who looks like them or speaks their language (regardless of if said doctor comes from a middle class background or not.)

And the other thing is this- the medical world is all about relationships. Kissing this attending's behind, knowing so and so to get on the research team to get published. URM's do not have these connections or opportunities. I think to myself so often how difficult it's going to be find a mentor in med school. What do I have in common with an old white guy? (I'm a young black/hispanic woman, so not much). And these are the people who dominate medicine. By even considering URM status, it at least helps us get in the door.

And yes, of course it's frustrating to see people with lower "stats" than you get in. It's frustrating for me to see rich white kids with connections who aren't that bright get in. And trust me, I tutor many of these kids, and I see it over and over again. So get down off your high horse, stop assuming that these white candidates are so qualified and URM's are not. And while we're at it, stop assuming that because you scored 1 point higher than someone on the MCAT that you're going to be a better doctor than them, because that's just delusional.

I see what you're saying and you make a really good point, but this doesn't help an asian who comes from a low income family without any connections. I think income plays a bigger role in determining what kind of connections you are going to make, not your skin color (Just because someone is black/hispanic doesn't mean those are the only connections they can make? and I think its ok to go and talk to a white person if you have to. I think its kind of ridiculous that you wouldve been more comfortable talking to a black person than a white person. I mean I guess it would make sense if you were old and grew up in those days....but you didnt). Soo I still do find it unfair that someone who is black/hispanic will have an easier time getting into medical school just because of their skin color. If they come from a low income background then im all up for it, but i dont think it should be based on skin color at all. In fact, I think lowering the standards only holds people back (the mentality that just because you are an URM, you dont have to aim for the same GPA and MCAT as other applicants.)

 

[HealthHare]

In fact, I think lowering the standards only holds people back (the mentality that just because you are an URM, you dont have to aim for the same GPA and MCAT as other applicants.)

And what I hate is when people (not saying you particularly) feel that this is the mentality of URMs as a whole. There are lazy people everywhere and of all skin colors. However, it is unfair to call out a whole group of people as undeserving of an opportunity that only begins to scratch the surface of repairing race relations in this country.

In most cases these lower standards aren't a result of laziness, but lack of good resources for good academic development. These people aren't stupid or of less quality, they just lacked opportunity. Also the whole notion that 3.9/37+ makes a better doctor is only correct in the context of various factors that unfortunately don't favor most URMs.

 

[k2on3hru]

And what I hate is when people (not saying you particularly) feel that this is the mentality of URMs as a whole. There are lazy people everywhere and of all skin colors. However, it is unfair to call out a whole group of people as undeserving of an opportunity that only begins to scratch the surface of repairing race relations in this country.

In most cases these lower standards aren't a result of laziness, but lack of good resources for good academic development. These people aren't stupid or of less quality, they just lacked opportunity. Also the whole notion that 3.9/37+ makes a better doctor is only correct in the context of various factors that unfortunately don't favor most URMs.

I am sorry if I offended you! I was definitely pointing at the people that are lazy, not the whole group! But yea, I realize that the standards are lowered because of the lack of good resources. And I am all up for lowering the standards a bit! If its obvious that someone didn't have good resources and came from a low income family and lived in a horrible neighborhood their whole life. (In this case, I think its the least we could do for them). BUT I think its almost unfair for a race to play off of the troubles of the less privileged people in the race.

I'm not an URM, but I am a minority and I definitely know what racism feels like. However, I dont think "expecting" these things is the way to fix the race relations in the country. I'm probably going to get destroyed for saying this, but I think a lot of things present today are actually destroying the things that people are doing to fix race relations E.x. Indian/hispanic/asian/black fraternities. Shouldn't we be aiming for clubs and fraternities where everyone is mixed? Anyway, I doubt we will ever agree on this subject. So I respect your opinion and I see where you are coming from. I think people who are truly less privileged should definitely have an opportunity at achieving the goals that the more privileged population dreams of. I am really sorry if I offended you!

 

[HealthHare]

I am sorry if I offended you! I was definitely pointing at the people that are lazy, not the whole group! But yea, I realize that the standards are lowered because of the lack of good resources. And I am all up for lowering the standards a bit! If its obvious that someone didn't have good resources and came from a low income family and lived in a horrible neighborhood their whole life. (In this case, I think its the least we could do for them). BUT I think its almost unfair for a race to play off of the troubles of the less privileged people in the race.

I'm not an URM, but I am a minority and I definitely know what racism feels like. However, I dont think "expecting" these things is the way to fix the race relations in the country. I'm probably going to get destroyed for saying this, but I think a lot of things present today are actually destroying the things that people are doing to fix race relations E.x. Indian/hispanic/asian/black fraternities. Shouldn't we be aiming for clubs and fraternities where everyone is mixed? Anyway, I doubt we will ever agree on this subject. So I respect your opinion and I see where you are coming from. I think people who are truly less privileged should definitely have an opportunity at achieving the goals that the more privileged population dreams of. I am really sorry if I offended you!

No offense taken. AA is not a black and white issue (excuse the pun haha).
I've learned long ago that this world isn't fair and isn't getting fair anytime soon. As a result I just have to do my personal best and hope things work out for the best. The trap we can get into is when we take things like racism, AA, sexism and constantly analyze their impact on our lives. (Oh did I not get into school X cause im asian; did I not get the job cause im black.) This kind of thinking is self defeating.

Anyway enough posting for the night lol. I do respect you and your right to an opinion

 

[qtipp]

It was.

Also you can't say there isn't a URM advantage
[graph 2009-2011 Acceptance percentages for White and Asians]

compared to

[Graph 2009-2011 Acceptance Percentages for Black or African Americans]

Firstly, thanks for supporting your point with data. I can seriously respect that. That said, I disagree with your interpretation of the data.

Three points:

1. What does the graph look like if we filter out Howard, Meharry and Morehouse? These three schools graduate more Black medical students than any other. What happens to the curves if they are eliminated?

2. You are looking at a feature of accepted applicants and assuming that because this applicant has that feature, they have an advantage. That is your perception. That is not necessarily a logical approach. If you think about it in terms of natural selection, you are looking at the genotype and saying, "aha! this genotype/feature is an ADVANTAGE." Genotype means nothing. It is phenotype that allows you to survive. It is survival that determines whether you have an advantage.

Black applicants proportionally do not survive the application process as well as White or Asian applicants. This is a fact backed up by the admission rates. That is the measure of fitness (defined as "acceptance") of the Black applicant, not their MCAT score or GPA.

3. Your GPA and MCAT score are largely a function of the quality of education you have received throughout your life, particularly but not exclusively during your younger years. Using another analogy, if there are three people of equal natural ability are running a 100m race, and one of them has to carry an extra 100lb of low quality education, giving them a 10m head start is not going to make them finish the race more quickly.

The truth is (my wife having worked as a Special educator in Baltimore) that Black kids in urban environments receive a sub-par education. If the school (elementary) is predominantly Black, the chances are they are not getting the same quality education that White or Asian kids in the county are getting.

Few White or Asian applicants (there are some) have ever gone to school with kids who have to sleep in their jackets during the winter because they have no heat. When there are quality teachers, they don't have an opportunity to teach at a quality level due to the high levels of truancy/absence from school.

There's more to say but I'm posting too much as it is.

 

[Nymphicus]

Yes, it's a super advantage because if you're a rich black and walk into a kkk meeting you're less likely to be called a racial slur. Oh that's not your argument? Your argument is that you have mostly rich blacks applying? Well, since it's so easy to be black and be rich, black people should just get rich, right? What next, suggest it's as easy as bouncing a ball or talking really fast to a beat in the background?

I'm going to bet you're a suburban kid thinking your opinion has baring on reality. Guess what? It doesn't.

In all fairness, sure, some people may get lucky the same way white people get lucky by their skin color alone to have greater advantages, but you know what those minorities who get lucky are? Exceptions, not the rule.

This is amazing.

 

[qtipp]

There is no overall advantage to get into medical school if you look at the entire population of AA's as a whole vs the entire population of whites as a whole. There IS an advantage if you look at two applicants with equal stats, one white and one black. If you want to twist the data any which way you can to be able to state "there is no advantage!!" go ahead, but if you want to compare applicants who are identical regarding everything but their race, there obviously is an advantage.

I'm not twisting the data. I just presented it and provided a logical interpretation which you agreed with. This is my point.

If you and I could choose whether to be Black or White during the admissions process, all other stats aside, better to be a White candidate because Whites are proportionally admitted at a higher rate than Blacks.

Your point about the "equal" stats is well taken. But you're leveling the GPA/MCAT field without leveling the HHI/Quality of Prior education field. I believe (and you can argue whether it's baloney or not) that if the HHI levels of Black, White and Asian students were more equal, there would be changes in 1) the rates at which Blacks apply 2) the stats they present when they apply and 3) their rates of acceptance.

Why do I believe that? Because HHI (as I mentioned in the OP) is related to quality of education, which directly impacts GPA and MCAT scores (the latter more than the former).

But this is not the case.

 

[qtipp]

While I totally agree with the need to consider true hardship, the problem is that would be very difficult to do. We don't have the resources in place to do it properly. People will game the system if it were based solely on income. I have seen it done. (students driving luxury cars while getting Pell grants) Being Latino or Black is a reasonable proxy for being disadvantaged. I think we can and should do a better job of sifting out only those that are truly disadvantaged.

.

 

[qtipp]

.

 

[kpcrew]

Dang the MSAR now has stats on # of afros per class? I need to get that version before I commit to a school

it breaks down all people but asians and hispanics get broken down a bit more

 

[qtipp]

Your data ignores obvious important questions and is presented in an extremely unfair way in an attempt to prove a point rather than find the truth.

Ok. Can you or someone else "present" the data in a way to find the truth? As far as I can see it is fairly obvious that being Black, all other factors aside, is not an advantage when compared to the rates of acceptance for Whites or Asians. How do I know that? Because the data shows that the rates of acceptance for Blacks is lower than it is for Whites and Asians. <--- This is a true statement. If it is true, then being White or Asian is an advantage. Why are Blacks disadvantaged? Probably because their HHI and other social factors are more likely to be unfavorable than their counterparts. Should we do something about it? I think so... but not necessarily at the admissions level.

Here is another true statement. Whites are accepted at a rate that is higher than the acceptance rate for the average applicant, ignoring all other factors. Here is my interpretation: That would suggest that whites have an advantage. What's the advantage? I don't know. Should we do something about it? No.

The truth seems to be that there is a huge URM advantage for URMs that are not poor.

Agreed. But to a certain extent. Being Black is not a walk in the park at any income level. Being Hispanic in Arizona and/or Alabama right now could be a pain at any income level. It could even be a problem in Montana (Looking at you Judge Cebull)

There also seems to be a huge disadvantage for people who are poor. What your data does not in any way prove is that URM's have a specific disadvantage over non URMs at an equal poverty level.

I would LOVE to see that data. I don't think it exists but it would answer a lot of questions. I think you're cherry picking a bit but looking at that data would be great.

You don't just get to ignore that gaping hole in your logic by saying that it isn't part of your argument,

???? Here is HHI for 2006 (I've posted it before).
Median Household income 2006
White $50,673
Black or African American $31,969

The Black applicant is more likely to suffer from poverty than the White applicant. You are suggesting substituting HHI for Ethnicity when they are proxies for each other (you can argue about the r^2). I don't see the gaping hole you're talking about... perhaps you could elaborate.

 

[qtipp]

First of all I'm Caucasian just in case someone is wondering. Second of all half the people commenting in here are making dumb comments. URM is all about producing Physicians that can represent certain races and interact with them. When I'm volunteering at the hospital many African American patients want to be treated by African American physicians, they feel more comfortable and some absolutely refuse to see anyone else. AAMC and medical schools are fully aware of the fact that they need to produce physicians from every race not just dominantly whites and asians.

For the ones saying that economical status is better than a race let me remind you something:-

The U.S population has approximately 196,817,552 Caucasians (Non-Hispanic decent) and out of them 9.9 % are in poverty of "ecominically disadvantaged". That means approximately 20 million whites are economically disadvantaged.

The U.S population has approximately 37,685,848 African Americans (Non-Hispanic decent) and out of them 27.4 % are impoverished. That means approximately 10 million African Americans are economically disadvantaged.

Now can you tell me how medical schools will increase "diversity" in an already over represented profession when they will be relying on "economically disadvantaged" individuals when the numbers of one race simply overwhelm the other?

Guys please read why AAMC and medical schools are utilizing "URM" status. Some of the people here just talk but refuse to understand the problem that patients want to and feel more comfortable with individuals of the same race. Sure call the patients racist whatever but in the end of the day the ratio of Cauciasian Physician to Caucasian patients is much greater compared to the ratio of African american physicians to African American patients. The belief of some that it should be based on econimical status acheives NO diversity in the healthcare profession. Oh by the way let's not forget that African Americans faced slavery for over a CENTURY not a month, not a year, not a decade BUT A CENTURY. How could we possibly be complaining about why African Americans get a very minute advantage through URM status? please try being a slave for a year tell me how it feels, surely it will impact you, your family and many generations to come. Why the hell else would we have such huge economical and health disparities in the great land of the "free".

This is a great comment... and not just because I agree with it.

 

[qtipp]

The following may be worth noting:

From 2009 to 2011, with a 3.20 to 3.39 GPA and a 27-29 MCAT,
==>17.6% of Asian applicants were accepted.
==>23.8% of white applicants were accepted.
==>54.5% of Hispanic or Latino applicants were accepted.
==>83.3% of black applicants were accepted.

Compared to data averaged from 2007-2010.

LizzeyM (and anyone else), here is a question: Looking at both of these sets of data, is it easier for a Black applicant to get into medical school when compared to whites and Asians?

Yes or No?

 

[flodhi1]

First of all I'm Caucasian just in case someone is wondering. Second of all half the people commenting in here are making dumb comments. URM is all about producing Physicians that can represent certain races and interact with them. When I'm volunteering at the hospital many African American patients want to be treated by African American physicians, they feel more comfortable and some absolutely refuse to see anyone else. AAMC and medical schools are fully aware of the fact that they need to produce physicians from every race not just dominantly whites and asians.

For the ones saying that economical status is better than a race let me remind you something:-

The U.S population has approximately 196,817,552 Caucasians (Non-Hispanic decent) and out of them 9.9 % are in poverty of "ecominically disadvantaged". That means approximately 20 million whites are economically disadvantaged.

The U.S population has approximately 37,685,848 African Americans (Non-Hispanic decent) and out of them 27.4 % are impoverished. That means approximately 10 million African Americans are economically disadvantaged.

Now can you tell me how medical schools will increase "diversity" in an already over represented profession when they will be relying on "economically disadvantaged" individuals when the numbers of one race simply overwhelm the other?

Guys please read why AAMC and medical schools are utilizing "URM" status. Some of the people here just talk but refuse to understand the problem that patients want to and feel more comfortable with individuals of the same race. Sure call the patients racist whatever but in the end of the day the ratio of Cauciasian Physician to Caucasian patients is much greater compared to the ratio of African american physicians to African American patients. The belief of some that it should be based on econimical status acheives NO diversity in the healthcare profession. Oh by the way let's not forget that African Americans faced slavery for over a CENTURY not a month, not a year, not a decade BUT A CENTURY. How could we possibly be complaining about why African Americans get a very minute advantage through URM status? please try being a slave for a year tell me how it feels, surely it will impact you, your family and many generations to come. Why the hell else would we have such huge economical and health disparities in the great land of the "free".

Probably the most objective post in this yet again trolled thread.

 

[OldBat]

If economic disadvantage mattered as much as race I'd have gotten a handful of interviews. Even with the new disadvantaged section on AMCAS, I don't think anything has changed. I began the application process assuming it wouldn't help though, so it doesn't really bother me too much.

Same situation. Applied disadvantaged No interview.

 

[sibitrum]

Let's just remember what the purpose of URM status is in the first place. To increase the number of black/hispanic doctors so that they will treat black/hispanic patients. Like it or not, many of these patients prefer to be seen by someone who looks like them or speaks their language (regardless of if said doctor comes from a middle class background or not.)

So we as a society are going to choose to play into the worst part of people's nature? If AA exists due to racism is it not ironic that AA is now letting racism fester? These policies also further racist tendencies by making people envious of those who play the race card in admissions. The end result of this is that, justifiably or not, people will discount the accomplishments of minorities because of affirmative action. You want to talk about building role models? Is someone truly a good role model if they require special consideration to make it, because they can't make it on their own?

Another point that people are missing here is that AA is not just about whether someone is accepted or not. It also plays a huge role in what tier of med school you get into and what kind of scholarships you are offered. Should the rich URM get a scholarship to go to Yale over the poor white kid who had to work throughout college?

 

[qtipp]

Some observations:

1. I didn't expect this thread to stay positive with respectful disagreements for this long.

2. I don't see anyone getting as worked up about the following chart and its many iterations as they do with MCAT/GPA graphs.

Where's the outrage for gender and racial income inequality?


3. A guv'ment study (The press release is 2 days old so take it with a grain of salt):

"Minority students across America face harsher discipline, have less access to rigorous high school curricula, and are more often taught by lower-paid and less experienced teachers, according to the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights (OCR)."
Among the key findings are:

• African-American students, particularly males, are far more likely to be suspended or expelled from school than their peers. Black students make up 18% of the students in the CRDC sample, but 35% of the students suspended once, and 39% of the students expelled.
• Only 29% of high-minority high schools offered Calculus, compared to 55% of schools with the lowest black and Hispanic enrollment.
• Teachers in high-minority schools were paid $2,251 less per year than their colleagues in teaching in low-minority schools in the same district.

We give minority students sub-par teachers, limited resources, a less advanced curriculum leading to inadequate preparation and grief in the form of suspensions and expulsions and then expect them to perform at the same level as those that didn't have these handic- er ... "advantages".

Anyone going to get upset about this?

Great "advantage" these URMs have. They're not even TRYING with the MCAT... what's wrong with them?

IMHO, The URM advantage is a myth.

 

[mipp0]

Some observations:

1. I didn't expect this thread to stay positive with respectful disagreements for this long.

2. I don't see anyone getting as worked up about the following chart and its many iterations as they do with MCAT/GPA graphs.

Where's the outrage for gender and racial income inequality?


3. A guv'ment study (The press release is 2 days old so take it with a grain of salt):


We give minority students sub-par teachers, limited resources, a less advanced curriculum leading to inadequate preparation and grief in the form of suspensions and expulsions and then expect them to perform at the same level as those that didn't have these handic- er ... "advantages".

Anyone going to get upset about this?

Great "advantage" these URMs have. They're not even TRYING with the MCAT... what's wrong with them?

IMHO, The URM advantage is a myth.

People love to throw around this graph, but it's important to be objective about it. This graph doesn't factor in cost of living or the number of income generating members in the family. In fact, it has been dissected in minority studies classes as misleading; on average, the number of Asian family members with a job contributing to household income is higher (bigger families), and Asian families tend to live in areas with higher cost of living. So the average median income is in fact much lower. It also masks disparities in income between Southeast Asian families and East Asian families.

You can be misinterpreting the data, and based on AAMC graphs posted on this thread, URM do have an advantage. How you can ignore that is beyond me. Do underrepresented minorities (African Americans) also face unique disadvantages? Absolutely. The same way Asian Americans do, being the most bullied ethnic group (particularly South Asian being called terrorists) or having to attain higher stats to place into schools. Do African Americans have more barriers to success IN GENERAL? Yes, I'm not disputing the fact that median income is lower than white families, but you brush too broadly.

The Admissions Committee has to put greater emphasis on socioeconomic factors and unique life trials. Not all black applicants face the same trials, and some white and Asian applicants might have grown up in more impoverished, broken homes than their fellow black applicants. It should all be case by case. A physician of any race can connect with patients of any race (and my experiences support this belief). I personally think every physician should be trained thoroughly in and champion culturally sensitive medicine (from what I've seen, it's a bit lacking, and this applies to any race).

The data (and all data) can be very misleading.

BTW, I'm against all forms of affirmative action, including legacy and sports affirmative action. Cal and other schools pampering their sports stars (sometimes being delinquent about it) is no good. If you want to see some lasting change, we need to pump some money into school resources in under-served areas. Meaningful and long term community service and tutoring in underserved areas should be a required part of the college and graduate school application process.

Since we're on this topic, we need to value education more as a country! Why is California cutting funding to education? Why aren't teachers/scientists/professors celebrated here like they are in Northern Europe and East Asia? How many millions of dollars is our governor cutting from the UC and Cal State and community college system? Public education is becoming more privatized, and it's killing middle and lower class students of all ethnicities! We need to pay our teachers more, train the best minds for teaching positions, focus on socially conscious consumerism, protect the environment, keep corporations more accountable, take the money out of politics, and stop making shows like Jersey Shore!!! I mean, c'mon man!

/rant

I'm sorry.

 

[flodhi1]

So we as a society are going to choose to play into the worst part of people's nature? If AA exists due to racism is it not ironic that AA is now letting racism fester? These policies also further racist tendencies by making people envious of those who play the race card in admissions. The end result of this is that, justifiably or not, people will discount the accomplishments of minorities because of affirmative action. You want to talk about building role models? Is someone truly a good role model if they require special consideration to make it, because they can't make it on their own?

Another point that people are missing here is that AA is not just about whether someone is accepted or not. It also plays a huge role in what tier of med school you get into and what kind of scholarships you are offered. Should the rich URM get a scholarship to go to Yale over the poor white kid who had to work throughout college?

I love how America was founded on the back of cheap oh I mean free labor of slaves and today people are saying "why can't they make it on their own"? You remind me of this:-

 

[MinitorV]

Blacks totally have an advantage. If you can't see that you are blind.

 

[qtipp]

Blacks totally have an advantage. If you can't see that you are blind.

Yeah... totally.

 

[Timewinders]

I don't understand why people are opposed to a fair, economics-based affirmative action system. It would help the disadvantaged black people, the disadvantaged asian people, and so on while not giving an advantage to middle class black people who had the same opportunities as middle class asian and white people. A higher percentage of black people are not well off, so they would still get the needed advantage from such a system. I don't think we should base our acceptance systems on race alone. Does it really matter whether you white people's ancestors enslaved black people's ancestors? Sure, racism still exists today, but asians have to face it too (maybe not to the same extent) and it doesn't seem that medical school admissions would discriminate against black people without affirmative action, so I don't see a need for a race-based system.

 

[BHaus9]

We give minority students sub-par teachers, limited resources, a less advanced curriculum leading to inadequate preparation and grief in the form of suspensions and expulsions and then expect them to perform at the same level as those that didn't have these handic- er ... "advantages".

False. We don't give minority students sub-par instructors and resources. We give POOR students sub-par instructors and resources. Education is, above all, a commodity -- a purchaseable resource -- and so income most heavily dictates access.

Yes, there is racial discrepancy in family income, but uh... doesn't that just mean those groups still suffering the ill effects of historical discrimination would be those most likely to benefit from income-based AA?

 

[wolfie77]

I don't understand why people are opposed to a fair, economics-based affirmative action system. It would help the disadvantaged black people, the disadvantaged asian people, and so on while not giving an advantage to middle class black people who had the same opportunities as middle class asian and white people. A higher percentage of black people are not well off, so they would still get the needed advantage from such a system. I don't think we should base our acceptance systems on race alone. Does it really matter whether you white people's ancestor's enslaved black people's ancestors? Sure, racism still exists today, but asians have to face it too (maybe not to the same extent) and it doesn't seem that medical school admissions would discriminate against black people without affirmative action, so I don't see a need for a race-based system.

Out of curiosity, what about a system that acknowledges race do you find so wrong?
Btw, the answer to your question is "omgsweetbabyjesus, YES."

 

[235788]

but with real data...


Yes blacks gets an advantage, and poor whites get the short end. Just accept that. Poor whites also get the FAP, which I and many other middle/upper whites paid for out of pocket. Less bar money and money I could have spent at nordstrom and saks . I think the only people who should be pissed are the asians, but then again they only make up 4% of our pop and 22% of med school applicants.

 

[EnergyDrink]

If you work the hardest you possibly can, you'll get into medical school, regardless of your race. That's what AA permits.

 

[BHaus9]

Out of curiosity, what about a system that acknowledges race do you find so wrong?
Btw, the answer to your question is "omgsweetbabyjesus, YES."

I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge race as a factor, but to use it exclusively..?

For argument's sake, why should a middle-class black applicant be given the benefit of the doubt over a poor white appicant whose family immigrated in 1940, or a Japanese-American applicant whose grandparents were placed in an internment camp?

 

[flodhi1]

Some one shut this thread down seriously, I am so disgusted of people complaining about how URMs have it easy blah blah......

 

[flaahless]

I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge race as a factor, but to use it exclusively..?

For argument's sake, why should a middle-class black applicant be given the benefit of the doubt over a poor white appicant whose family immigrated in 1940, or a Japanese-American applicant whose grandparents were placed in an internment camp?

Not attacking you per se but this quote illustrates the prejudice/ignorance/naiivity/ of this forum very well.

 

[EnergyDrink]

Some one shut this thread down seriously, I am so disgusted of people complaining about how URMs have it easy blah blah......

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean they don't have a right to say it.

 

[BHaus9]

Not attacking you per se but this quote illustrates the prejudice/ignorance/naiivity/ of this forum very well.

Care to elaborate?

Using race as a proxy for economic status is silly when you don't have to use a proxy in the first place. That is, if poorness is the greatest barrier to academic success, it's the poor who should be helped.

On the other hand, If it's the discriminated-against who face the greatest barrier to academic success, then we should include all races, religions, genders, or sexual orientations that are discriminated against (e.g. many ORMs are victims of extreme prejudice).

What seems incredibly prejudiced/ignorant/naive to me is to identify someone on the basis of the color of their skin and say "applicant A is black, therefore his/her path to medicine was harder than anyone else's."

 

[flaahless]

Care to elaborate?

Race is not used exclusively and it's profoundly ignorant and naiive to think so. It's an emotionally fabricated argument that is not supported by the current admissions process or aamc data and only serves to debase, debunk and disrespect the accomplishments of marginalized applicants.

 

[wolfie77]

I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge race as a factor, but to use it exclusively..?

For argument's sake, why should a middle-class black applicant be given the benefit of the doubt over a poor white appicant whose family immigrated in 1940, or a Japanese-American applicant whose grandparents were placed in an internment camp?

I think disagreement on this often depends on the fact that anti-affirmative action people aren't willing to accept that under-representation in the medical field is not a only class issue, but a RACE issue. To solve a race issue, medical schools have implemented a system that addresses it explicitly (as opposed to an indirect class-based approach). If a middle-class black or brown person benefits, this still accomplishes the goal of diminishing under-representation. I, myself, would MUCH RATHER see a poor minority student get admitted than one whose daddy and mommy are loaded. But poor kids often don't make it to the point where they can apply to med school so the next best thing might have to be middle-class minorities.

As for your other question, I think something that never gets brought up in these talks is how medical schools have social/ethical responsibilities to the communities they serve. I'm specifically referring to big urban schools (Pritzker, USC, Hopkins, Harvard, UCLA, Columbia, etc.). All these schools are located in and benefit from the communities of color which they serve. In my opinion, it should be a part of their socially responsible mission to produce physicians that reflect the patient population that their students perfect their skills on. I know this doesn't necessarily apply to University of Iowa or Nebraska or some place like that, but I still think it's important for medical schools to give back to the communities they get so much from. This is not only ethical but also pragmatic. For example, there was this study in Italy that showed that there is a difficulty between people of different skin colors in empathizing with each other's pain. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/27/race.empathy/index.html)

 

[eHombre]

I don't understand why people are opposed to a fair, economics-based affirmative action system. It would help the disadvantaged black people, the disadvantaged asian people, and so on while not giving an advantage to middle class black people who had the same opportunities as middle class asian and white people. A higher percentage of black people are not well off, so they would still get the needed advantage from such a system. I don't think we should base our acceptance systems on race alone. Does it really matter whether you white people's ancestors enslaved black people's ancestors? Sure, racism still exists today, but asians have to face it too (maybe not to the same extent) and it doesn't seem that medical school admissions would discriminate against black people without affirmative action, so I don't see a need for a race-based system.

Outright slavery ended 150 years ago, true (though de facto slavery persisted much longer). American apartheid, however, the most vicious form of which was directed against blacks (i.e., Jim Crow), officially ended fewer than 50 years ago. Its effects linger today in the form of markedly lower educational attainment of older minorities (which trickles down to their progeny), the unjustly applied War on Drugs, and the de facto resegregation of our public schools.

That these facts are inconvenient does not mean one should seize upon an income-based AA "solution" that conveniently allows one to avoid talking about race.

Affirmative action in America attempts to partially correct both for past racial injustices and for current racial disparities in physician demographics and patient access to health care.

 

[sibitrum]

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." -MLK

 

[flodhi1]

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean they don't have a right to say it.

This topic has been beaten to death. I assure you there are countless threads about URM and AA hell I'm sure a new thread comes every week. We really don't need anymore. I'm sure trolls would love to argue day and night but this is an educational forum to help others not waste time over bickering.