The US MD/DO vs. foreign MBBS/MBChB/MB

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I'd also like to see your logic and reasoning for the claim that the US medical schools are FAR SUPERIOR to any other country. I could understand a claim that US residency programs could be a bit superior to other countries just because in the US, we have access to more technological advancements and resources. But what are you basing medical school education on? I would think medical education is pretty standard. I mean, Anatomy is Anatomy no matter where you take it, hmm? And because foreign medical schools are 6 years, they have longer time to learn the material...I would think this would facilitate more indepth and solid learning. And as the above person implied, if you find the USMLE pass rates for English as 1st language speakers (i.e. UK/Ireland/Australia) including US-IMGs, perhaps that might be helpful in either validating or disproving your claim.

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johnny_blaze said:
What are you basing this on? Have you been to both a US and European med school?

I was in a PM conversation with a member who has just written his USMLE’s after studying medicine in the U.K (like I am currently doing). He told me that the USMLE’s weren’t anymore difficult that the exams we take in the U.K. He said that the American clinical skills exam was far easier than the ones we do here. Some medical schools here require that a clinical skills examination (of at least 30 stations) be undertaken at the end of EVERY year to ensure that our clinical competence remains strong.

I don’t think you’re correct in assuming that US medical schools are far superior, but I am open minded and I am willing to except it if you can prove it ;) . You can use IMG USMLE pass results to support your statement but I’d like to see the pass rates for just UK grads instead of a general list that also includes countries who do not have a similar status of teaching resources.

Yes I have been in many medical schools. I believe the medical info is there for the taking of whoever wants to learn, anywhere, but US schools make a far better job of filtering undesirable candidates, and a far better job of guaranteeing that any graduate will have at least the basic skills. This is through constant testing and assessment. Do you know that in some European schools there is ONE test per course per year, and that test can cover a random subject? That means that you can honor the course by knowing that one area, or fail by knowing the remaining 98%.
 
leorl said:
I'd also like to see your logic and reasoning for the claim that the US medical schools are FAR SUPERIOR to any other country. I could understand a claim that US residency programs could be a bit superior to other countries just because in the US, we have access to more technological advancements and resources. But what are you basing medical school education on? I would think medical education is pretty standard. I mean, Anatomy is Anatomy no matter where you take it, hmm? And because foreign medical schools are 6 years, they have longer time to learn the material...I would think this would facilitate more indepth and solid learning. And as the above person implied, if you find the USMLE pass rates for English as 1st language speakers (i.e. UK/Ireland/Australia) including US-IMGs, perhaps that might be helpful in either validating or disproving your claim.
IMG USMLE takers are not a representative sample of foreign medical students in general. To begin with, they speak English (the language in which most med literature is written). That in itself tells you that they are more ambitious and seek learning opportunities. You would be surprised at the number of foreign medical graduates that cannot diagnose things that the worst US medical student would have no difficulty with. Many don't speak English and do not attend yearly conferences, so they are prescribing obsolete, even dangerous medications.
Having said this, yes, IMGs that make it to US residencies are equal, and perhaps superior, to US counterparts. Mayo has some unfreakingbelievable IMGs. In order to get in, you have to be the best IMG. But the US SYSTEM is better to guarantee a basic level of competence. Many foreign medical schools don't guarantee this. Lack of funding, lack of organization. Some faculty are incompetent (something difficult to see in US), and they teach untrue things. I could elaborate more but I believe this info is on many websites.
Peace to everybody
 
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I think it would be very wise not to make generalizations. As regards to the 1 test per course. You think that is easy? Hells no. Because in most cases, you don't know which topic is going to come up. That means, you have to know all of them. On the day it won't test your knowledge on everything, but that doesn't mean it isn't learned. And that one test is usually in essay format, which is a system the US is entirely unused to. Writing an essay about a pharm / anatomy / biochem / etc. subject is very difficult, because it does mean that you have to know/put in absolutely everything. There's no pick and choose like there is with MCQ, there's no remembering something because you saw it in another question.

So you do discriminate between US-IMGs/English-speaking IMGs than ones from other countries. Perhaps you'd like to say exactly which countries you find lacking in education. I believe there are rather well-known medical schools across the world, and not just in westernized countries (whether English-speaking or not). I don't think you are justified in making a sweeping generalization like that.
 
leorl said:
I think it would be very wise not to make generalizations. As regards to the 1 test per course. You think that is easy? Hells no. Because in most cases, you don't know which topic is going to come up. That means, you have to know all of them. On the day it won't test your knowledge on everything, but that doesn't mean it isn't learned. And that one test is usually in essay format, which is a system the US is entirely unused to. Writing an essay about a pharm / anatomy / biochem / etc. subject is very difficult, because it does mean that you have to know/put in absolutely everything. There's no pick and choose like there is with MCQ, there's no remembering something because you saw it in another question.

So you do discriminate between US-IMGs/English-speaking IMGs than ones from other countries. Perhaps you'd like to say exactly which countries you find lacking in education. I believe there are rather well-known medical schools across the world, and not just in westernized countries (whether English-speaking or not). I don't think you are justified in making a sweeping generalization like that.

Well, the UK is rather the exception. I know that. However MCQs, if well written, are actually formidable and difficult. Essays are difficult to write, but communication skills help. Subjective grading is the norm. Many faculty don't read the whole essay. I know what I am talking about.
Let's put it this way: when I go the the doc, with an IMG, I feel that I might be with the best doctor in the world but also with someone who does not have a freaking clue. With a US grad, I know I am at least with an average doc.
I am sure you have not been exposed to the US medical education system. I have been exposed to both.
Do you know that in many med schools abroad they have ONE freaking cadaver for the whole class? And one that is so rotten as to be unrecognizable?
Some biochem professors don't speak English and have not stayed abreast of developments.
Histology: there's no computers or microscopes.
Neuro: non-existent
Physical examination: perhaps the only skill where Europeans have more training. Reason: less dependence on technology/money/imaging. But a US grad can lear great PD if he/she desires.
Ethics, patient approach, confidentiality issues, diversity issues, respect: almost NEVER addressed in Europe.
Draping the patient: not done
Interviewing skills: never assessed. In US, you get videotaped and your performance assessed.
Presentation skills: never assessed (and they are critical for professional interactions)
People getting in med school: more random process, usually based only on high school scores/who you know.
I have honored many an essay type exam with minimum knowledge. Same not true of well written MCQs (I favor combining both)
I could go on and on.
Peace.

Pili, a European that is objective
 
I'm still curious as to where these medical schools are, or if you could give an example. My understanding is that there is a basic level which all schools have to reach in order to just achieve competence. What you have described certainly hasn't been my experience, and I've not heard of anyone in other parts of the world say the above...perhaps they don't come onto SDN ;). What you are describing is a system. I'm not sure others would agree something like video-taped interview assessment is a necessary criteria, since they have their own form of patient interaction assessment. The same goes for presentation skills...Europe (mainland, western) at least have very good inclusion and expectation of presentation level. Now, I'm not saying that what you have listed above is untrue, but am just curious as to where in the world they show up.

Also, I don't deny that MCQs can be very difficult! Here they certainly are! But was just pointing out the fallacy in thinking that the 1 exam for the whole course (i.e. 100% of the course) was somehow a marker for educational deficiencies. And I still don't agree with a broad statement stating that the US has far superior medical education. Perhaps the system suits you, but other places suit others.
 
First, I think that this thread is useless and ought to be locked.

Second, your generalizations and absolute statements do not mesh with my experiences.

Let's take them one by one.

Pili said:
Do you know that in many med schools abroad they have ONE freaking cadaver for the whole class? And one that is so rotten as to be unrecognizable?
Some biochem professors don't speak English and have not stayed abreast of developments.
Histology: there's no computers or microscopes.
Neuro: non-existent
Physical examination: perhaps the only skill where Europeans have more training. Reason: less dependence on technology/money/imaging. But a US grad can lear great PD if he/she desires.
Ethics, patient approach, confidentiality issues, diversity issues, respect: almost NEVER addressed in Europe.
Not the case where I went to school.
Draping the patient: not done
Sad, but true.
Interviewing skills: never assessed. In US, you get videotaped and your performance assessed.
Presentation skills: never assessed (and they are critical for professional interactions)
Almost every clinical exam I took covered those issues. Yes, it is true, my presentations and interviews were not videotaped.
People getting in med school: more random process, usually based only on high school scores/who you know.
That depends on the system. In some countries, the system is entirely meritocratic. You make the points, you get in...
Pili, a European that is objective
Doubtful. Why don't you disclose your nationality and background?
 
Pili said:
Well, the UK is rather the exception. I know that. However MCQs, if well written, are actually formidable and difficult. Essays are difficult to write, but communication skills help. Subjective grading is the norm. Many faculty don't read the whole essay. I know what I am talking about.
Let's put it this way: when I go the the doc, with an IMG, I feel that I might be with the best doctor in the world but also with someone who does not have a freaking clue. With a US grad, I know I am at least with an average doc.
I am sure you have not been exposed to the US medical education system. I have been exposed to both.
Do you know that in many med schools abroad they have ONE freaking cadaver for the whole class? And one that is so rotten as to be unrecognizable?
Some biochem professors don't speak English and have not stayed abreast of developments.
Histology: there's no computers or microscopes.
Neuro: non-existent
Physical examination: perhaps the only skill where Europeans have more training. Reason: less dependence on technology/money/imaging. But a US grad can lear great PD if he/she desires.
Ethics, patient approach, confidentiality issues, diversity issues, respect: almost NEVER addressed in Europe.
Draping the patient: not done
Interviewing skills: never assessed. In US, you get videotaped and your performance assessed.
Presentation skills: never assessed (and they are critical for professional interactions)
People getting in med school: more random process, usually based only on high school scores/who you know.
I have honored many an essay type exam with minimum knowledge. Same not true of well written MCQs (I favor combining both)
I could go on and on.
Peace.

Pili, a European that is objective

Seeing as the U.K is an exception to all of these (where I study) I cant really confirm or deny that this type of teaching education occurs in other places in Europe for the simple reason that I’ve never seen how med students are taught in other countries.

I do have one thought though. If the long list you’ve given us is true I cant see how a medical school operating like this can produce a good doctor. If this is the case then how exactly does this institution become a LCME approved affiliated foreign institution? I was under the impression that a IMG needed to be from a school from this list before he/she could even write the USMLEs. How would a “doctor” who trained in a “medical school” in the way you described even get licensed in the states?
 
OMG, there are ****ty schools and great schools all over. Europe is a big place, as is America. Maybe with minute knowledge of two individual schools, you could say one was "far superior" than the other, and even that would be a useless generalization. Pili, tell us exactly which schools you are comparing.

Draping....... LOL :D
 
johnny_blaze said:
I do have one thought though. If the long list you’ve given us is true I cant see how a medical school operating like this can produce a good doctor. If this is the case then how exactly does this institution become a LCME approved affiliated foreign institution? I was under the impression that a IMG needed to be from a school from this list before he/she could even write the USMLEs. How would a “doctor” who trained in a “medical school” in the way you described even get licensed in the states?

LCME only accredits US and Canadian allopathic medical schools. The AOA accredits US osteopathic medical schools.

In order to be eligible to take the USMLE (as a FMG), your school needs to be listed in the WHO (World Health Organization) directory of medical schools. Getting listed in WHO is achieved by having the appropriate national government submit a list of its approved schools. WHO specifically states that they are not an accrediting body.

It is up to the respective governments to determine standards for medical schools and medical licensing. WHO does not differentiate between a country with high standards (with regards to accreditation) and a country who's only requirement for accreditation is an application fee and the usual "bribe" :)


Second part of your question

Each state is responsible for its licensing requirement (there is no uniform federal standard unless you work for the federal government)

Most states have adopted the basic rules of using USMLE as the benchmark indicator. Most states have determined that passing all 3 USMLE and doing the internship will satisfy their requirement. It is presumed that a poorly trained medical student (with poor basic medical instruction and poor clinical experiences) won't be able to pass these requirements. Whether this presumption is right or not is irrelevant - the state legislature and medical licensing board have determined this to be the bare-minimum stardard required for licensure. An additional non-governmental safe-guard is the specialty board certification process.

Some states are making life more difficult for your FMGs. California, Texas, and New York comes to mind (in terms of what foreign medical school one can and cannot be from).
 
Anubis84 said:
I've read a past forum, from last year, discussing the distinction between the US MD (Doctor of Medicine) and DO (osteopathic doctor) vs. the British/Asian/Indian MB/MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine) degree. Some of the points discussed were:

1. The MD was a graduate degree, not an undergrad degree
2. The MD required about 8 years of combined schooling vs. 6 years for the MBBS
3. US medical training is more rigorous, etc.

I think that US med grads and foreign medical grads both have excellent training, for the most part, and that these degrees are equivalent. I have no problem with that. I do think some countries have inferior (forgive the word) facilities and medical technology in their curricula, but I think the IMGs receive good medical training.

However, the MD is a professional graduate degree. It's not equal to a PhD and is NOT a true doctorate. Even the AMA acknowledges that medical education is considered "undergraduate". I personally think an MD, however, is a graduate degree. It's a four year post-bachelor's degree in the US. In the UK, Asia, and many other countries, medical education truly is at the undergraduate level. I think this is wrong, but that's a product of the lame British system. This should change to reflect the rigours of medical school.

The problem I have with IMGs who have MB degrees is that they come to the US and get licensed, but insist on using the MD designation and they call themselves "doctor". Imagine someone from Europe or Asia coming to the US, with a bachelor's degree in biology, and claiming to have a PhD. It wouldn't be right. I have no problem with the IMG with an MB coming over here and passing exams and getting licensed, but face it, you'd be a physician, but you are NOT a doctor insofar as your degree makes you a doctor.

The term doctor was appropriated incorrectly by physicians. I think the better term should be Physician, but I think anyone who has a legally earned doctor's degree, from an accredited institution of higher education, should be allowed to use the title "Doctor" if he/she chooses to. However, if you have a bachelor's degree in medicine, you shouldn't hold yourself off as a doctor. Your degree may be equal to an MD, but it's NOT an MD. That's like me holding a DO degree but signing my name MD; it would be wrong and fraudulent. Since IMG's with MBs don't have a doctoral degree, they shouldn't be legally entitled to use the title Dr.

That's my opinion on this. I know many will disagree, but I still say it's fraud. I also have a problem with health care professionals thinking they hold a monopoly on the title doctor. PhDs, EdDs, PharmDs, JDs, and many others worked hard for their degrees and are just as much doctors as any MD or DO or DDS or (laugh) chiropractor or optometrist (not even true health care professions).

Oh boy, are you narrow minded!!! HAHAHHAHA

After all this, i am sure you were aware that a lot of countries like Australia offer not only the direct from School entry to Med school, which I might add is viciously competitive, but also offer 4 year post-grad medical programs, i.e. after attaining an undergraduate degree. These post-grad programs still graduate students with the MBBS title, however the course of study is identical to that of the US system, where the difference is the US system tries to (falsely) pass off their graduates as MDs, whom are undergraduates, where the rest of the world classify MD as a post-graduate research qualification, attained after medical school.
Hence an international doc to the US with an MD is a higher qualification, and a real MD, comparative to just med school grad US MDs.

Oh, and just for perspective, a US trained doctor is an IMG from the perspective of the foreign country in which they practice and reside. So stop using IMG as a derogatory term when it is all relative.

Thanks for the laugh, you are a real hoot!
 
Anubis84 said:
My whole point was: if you don't possess a doctoral degree, whether professional or academic, you shouldn't use the title "doctor".

I only was making the point that the holder of an MBBS shouldn't use the title doctor since, technically, they aren't a doctor.

Except of course in these scenarios:
1. The MBBS holder passes the ECFMG requirements, then the ECFMG authorises the American "MD" to that person, deeming it equivalent if you pass the medical undergraduate USMLE 1/2/CSA exams. The ECFMG says that the MBBS holder is an MD, it is the "Deans Office" of the "College for Foreign People" if you like. Like it or not, the american medical colleges/deans/administrators recongise that american medical school MD is = rest of world MBBS and it's written in law that the ECFMG confers MD status to FMGs who pass the requirements (USMLE exams). This is unfortunately a truth you don't like as you wish to feel superior and have a small penis.

2. The American "MD" med school graduate comes to UK/Ireland/Rest of World and applies for research fellowship/specialist training and gets laughed at for putting MD on application, all the while looking stupid and saying "BUt I am MD I 0wn all of j00".

As a side note because it's no been mentioned: the Doctor is historical for medicine as it derives it's meaning from being a teacher/mentor and part of the original apprenticeship type of teaching.
 
I would disagree with the person who claims that because US/Canadian Style Med Education requires 8 year combined education, where as most other coutries require 6, that their schools are better/make physicians more qualified.

While this is true, that MD is usually take after a Bachelors degree, WHICH bachelor is becoming more and more open. Many schools in Canada now require AN undergraduate degree. Be it a BA, BMus, or BSc. Which means that half of that '8 years combined' education, may have little, if anything, to do with the sciences. I personally know a doctor who graduated from McMaster (although their education system is unique) and had a girl in his class who had a BA in Dance. McMaster also does not look at MCATs.

Dal also works this way. Even if the schools do have pre-requisites for their MD program, most are fairly simplistic (Physics I, Bio I/II, Chem I/II, English, Math, and some 2nd year Chem courses) that can easily be completed alongside others.

In fact, in Canada, if you look at the requirements for Medicine vs. Optometry, Optometry actually has many, many, many more.

Most other systems (6 year programs) you are doing all the pre-req's (as req'd by SOME Canadian schools) + more for those 6 years, so your education is fairly science based. Good or bad is really up to you. The person may not be able to discuss ballet in depth, but I'm sure the person is probably a decent physician by the end.

I can't speak for medicine, but for Optometrists coming over with their BOptom, once they pass their lisencing exam, then are (if I remember correctly), awarded the OD title, and referred to as Doctor. I'm going to send off an e-mail and will post back when I get a response to confirm that this is indeed what happens, and I'll check the the reasoning as welll.

While that may be referring to Optometry, and not Medicine, it's still a health field where we award a Doctorate title in Canada/US, but most other countries do not.

CH
 
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john182 said:
Like it or not, the american medical colleges/deans/administrators recongise that american medical school MD is = rest of world MBBS and it's written in law that the ECFMG confers MD status to FMGs who pass the requirements (USMLE exams). This is unfortunately a truth you don't like as you wish to feel superior and have a small penis.

2. The American "MD" med school graduate comes to UK/Ireland/Rest of World and applies for research fellowship/specialist training and gets laughed at for putting MD on application, all the while looking stupid and saying "BUt I am MD I 0wn all of j00".

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbup:
 
Pili said:
The high school system in Europe is in fact more challenging than any US undergraduate degree. College algebra is at the 10 year old level. For Europeans, US college tests seem like a joke. No offense intended. Just fact.
However, US Medical SChool is FAR SUPERIOR to any other country. It has nothing to do with the undergrad vs. grad issue. If anything, IMGs are more prepared going into Med School. The Med. Educaton itself is what is important, and US has the best.

You must be kidding on this...
US Engineering degree from a good school is equally hard as Medicine if not more difficult.
For you satisfaction, go to "Engineering and Medicine" post in the Allopathic forum.
 
john182 said:
This is unfortunately a truth you don't like as you wish to feel superior and have a small penis.

hahhaa i love how u snuck that in at the end :laugh: :laugh:

john182 said:
2. The American "MD" med school graduate comes to UK/Ireland/Rest of World and applies for research fellowship/specialist training and gets laughed at for putting MD on application, all the while looking stupid and saying "BUt I am MD I 0wn all of j00".

This is actually true! I remember speaking to a consultant/attending urologist and he was telling my how he “disapproves” of the US/CAN MD because its awarded without doing research. I, originally being from Canada, did defend it but he did make some good points, most of which have already been mentioned in previous posts. I think if there are any US/CAN grads thinking of doing work in the U.K you should really take this into consideration. Some consultants (who have research MDs) may hold it against you that you haven't earned what they earned because unlike the UK MBBS=US MD, the US MD is not really equal to a UK (research) MD, know what i mean?
 
Okay guys. This is the last I will post on this silly topic. I do have personal experience on the education in both America and Europe. However, for the whole medical school issue, there was a large, big, fat study done I believe it was by the AMA studying foreign med schools in depth: curriculum, facilities, requirement for graduation, etc. The unanimous conclusion was that, in most cases, if not all, the medical education abroad was lacking. Hence, the measures put in place to make sure that IMGs meet certain standards before getting licensed. For those that do, nobody can claim they are inferior in any way. If anybody has the reference, post it and let's put this mater to bed. Why keep on arguing when the thing has already been thoroughly researched and published by experts? Don't we believe in peer reviewed, evidence stuff around here?
True story: I worked with a European cardiologist who was doing some "research" (a friend of the same nationality had gotten him the position) so he could match into IM in US. There was a study with 83 patients, 23 had died. He asked me how to calculate the percentage. I said, 23/83 x 100.
He did not match anywhere. I had to confront him in the end because he kept using me to solve basic scientific matters. My point is: no this is not the norm, I know that. But in the US that guy would have never made it through the system. But in his school he did. What's more, he was board certified in cardiology. And he was from a reputed school, too, which I will not mention because I am sure he was rather the exception. But he sure did have gigantic gaps in his knowledge, besides being a user.
 
Pili said:
Okay guys. This is the last I will post on this silly topic. I do have personal experience on the education in both America and Europe. However, for the whole medical school issue, there was a large, big, fat study done I believe it was by the AMA studying foreign med schools in depth: curriculum, facilities, requirement for graduation, etc. The unanimous conclusion was that, in most cases, if not all, the medical education abroad was lacking. Hence, the measures put in place to make sure that IMGs meet certain standards before getting licensed. For those that do, nobody can claim they are inferior in any way. If anybody has the reference, post it and let's put this mater to bed. Why keep on arguing when the thing has already been thoroughly researched and published by experts? Don't we believe in peer reviewed, evidence stuff around here?
True story: I worked with a European cardiologist who was doing some "research" (a friend of the same nationality had gotten him the position) so he could match into IM in US. There was a study with 83 patients, 23 had died. He asked me how to calculate the percentage. I said, 23/83 x 100.
He did not match anywhere. I had to confront him in the end because he kept using me to solve basic scientific matters. My point is: no this is not the norm, I know that. But in the US that guy would have never made it through the system. But in his school he did. What's more, he was board certified in cardiology. And he was from a reputed school, too, which I will not mention because I am sure he was rather the exception. But he sure did have gigantic gaps in his knowledge, besides being a user.

You know what? I don't believe you.

You make blanket statements about European medical education and when you are asked to disclose your background, you refuse to do so except to continue to claim that you have both European and US med. education.

This, IMO limits your credibility.
 
Pili said:
However, for the whole medical school issue, there was a large, big, fat study done I believe it was by the AMA studying foreign med schools in depth: curriculum, facilities, requirement for graduation, etc. The unanimous conclusion was that, in most cases, if not all, the medical education abroad was lacking.

:laugh: :laugh: A "study" about european/other med schools done by the AMA , an American institution, and you expect it to be completely objective and unbiased? :laugh: :laugh: Again, what criteria were they using? - that patient interaction and interviews had to be videotaped? :laugh: :laugh:

The reason they're not exactly comparable is because the US system and European/other systems are quite different. A study with certain criteria done in the US is not going to come out favorably about other school simply because they run things and handle things differently. If a European study was done with their criteria, I'm sure the US grads/schools would also come out lacking in a few areas. Plus, if the AMA held itself to be the absolute best standard that had to be conformed to worldwide, that is very surprising. Shame on them. And shame on the poor dupes who believe them.
 
The AMA is hardly unbiased, despite the fact that nearly 1/3 of its members are FMGs.

At any rate, a perusal (albeit a brief one) of Medline doesn't reveal the study which our user "referenced" above. Interestingly enough, I did find a Thai study which "warned" its medical students and physicans against seeking a US residency since FMGs are often left to substandard, or undesirable residencies which may not be better, and may in fact, be worse, that what's available in their own country. The SHOCK and HORROR that someone might actually presume that ANY US medical education would not be superior to ANY outside of the US!! ;)

Bottom line, please provide the reference Pili.
 
OK, I just got off the phone checking my info out that I gave earlier.

Foreign trained Optometrists CAN use the title "Doctor"; even if they held the BOptom degree. Reason being that according to the Regulated Health Professions Act in Ontario, it states that a Lisenced Optometrist (physician/dentist/chiropractor) may use the title "Doctor", but it does not specify the degree required -- just that they need to be lisenced by the appropriate College.

However, they cannot use the postnominal OD, as that specifies the degree they actually hold. And a BOptom, while equivilent, is not an OD. Make sense? So when optometrists have a FMG practicing with them, usually they'll just say:

Dr. Smith
Dr. Blythe
Dr. Joe

Optometrists

as opposed to:

Dr. Smith, OD
Dr. Blythe, OD
Dr. Joe, BOptom

Now, then it gets more complicated.

Let's say an MD wants to practice Optometry in Canada. They CANNOT use their MD post nominal in practice, as it's presenting themselves to the patients as a praciticing MD, which they are not. BUT, if they are using a PERSONAL business card, to an aquaintance, they CAN use the post nominal. It's done that way to protect the public.

So the reasoning make sense? That's how is stands in Ontario, and I believe the rest of the country, in regards to FMGs using the "Doctor" title.

CH
 
cdh86 said:
However, they cannot use the postnominal OD, as that specifies the degree they actually hold. And a BOptom, while equivilent, is not an OD. Make sense? So when optometrists have a FMG practicing with them, usually they'll just say:

Dr. Smith
Dr. Blythe
Dr. Joe

Optometrists

as opposed to:

Dr. Smith, OD
Dr. Blythe, OD
Dr. Joe, BOptom

But doctors who complete an MBBS CAN use the MD title after they are licensed in the US.

Oh, actually.. in case your interested. It's also the same for Vets. Vets in the UK recieve a BVS (bachelor of vet science) which is equivalent to the DVM/VMD degrees in the US. I think they too retain the name of their degree, but are still referred to as Dr. of course both in the UK and in the US.

cdh86 said:
Now, then it gets more complicated.

Let's say an MD wants to practice Optometry in Canada. They CANNOT use their MD post nominal in practice, as it's presenting themselves to the patients as a praciticing MD, which they are not. BUT, if they are using a PERSONAL business card, to an aquaintance, they CAN use the post nominal. It's done that way to protect the public.

So the reasoning make sense? That's how is stands in Ontario, and I believe the rest of the country, in regards to FMGs using the "Doctor" title.

CH

Remind me again why an MD would be practicing optometry... :confused:

Even if an MD who completed medical school and is licensed, decides to go back to school to get an OD, Yes they would be able use both nominals in practice.



Again.. I don't understand what any of this has to do with this thread.. but whatever
 
Because people were debating the use of post nominals, etc, earlier, and I was stating what happens in Canada. More specifically, Ontario, and the reasons for it.

Occassionaly, an MD coming from abroad (maybe an Opthalmologist who couldn't retrain in their residency) will request to practice Optometry as opposed to medicine. In this case, they may not use the MD in practice, as it misleads the patient. Even if they hold both degrees I'm not sure they'd be allowed to use MD in practice UNLESS they are actually practicing medicine.

I left Vets out of the list by accident (person I was talking to didn't mention them either, but I think it's safe to assume they'd be on the list).
 
Can someone pleeeeeeease close this post.

It has gone tooooo far.

You will not change the world by complaining about all of this.

If you don't like fmg, then don't work with them. someone else will. If you are working for an fmg. tough. accept it or find another job.

If you are an fmg, great. good for you, you made it or are on your way to making it. set a good example, work hard.

If you are a hateful person, I feel sorry for you. You will die of an early age from an MI. Get some counseling.

If you are a hateful person working for an fmg. Well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

If you are still in medical school. That means you are not in the real world yet and when you get there you better learn to get along with everyone or you will be in for a very real wake up call.

Good luck to all.

EH.
 
erichaj said:
Can someone pleeeeeeease close this post.

It has gone tooooo far.

You will not change the world by complaining about all of this.

If you don't like fmg, then don't work with them. someone else will. If you are working for an fmg. tough. accept it or find another job.

If you are an fmg, great. good for you, you made it or are on your way to making it. set a good example, work hard.

If you are a hateful person, I feel sorry for you. You will die of an early age from an MI. Get some counseling.

If you are a hateful person working for an fmg. Well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

If you are still in medical school. That means you are not in the real world yet and when you get there you better learn to get along with everyone or you will be in for a very real wake up call.

Good luck to all.

EH.

Thank You! :idea:
 
erichaj said:
Can someone pleeeeeeease close this post.

It has gone tooooo far.

You will not change the world by complaining about all of this.

If you don't like fmg, then don't work with them. someone else will. If you are working for an fmg. tough. accept it or find another job.

If you are an fmg, great. good for you, you made it or are on your way to making it. set a good example, work hard.

If you are a hateful person, I feel sorry for you. You will die of an early age from an MI. Get some counseling.

If you are a hateful person working for an fmg. Well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

If you are still in medical school. That means you are not in the real world yet and when you get there you better learn to get along with everyone or you will be in for a very real wake up call.

Good luck to all.

EH.


First and foremost you need to improve your English. Oops I forgot - you're an IMG, and you have a low bar to scale. Disregard.

"If you don't like FMG.....blah" - well, I don't dislike them either. I just was trying to discuss quality of education.
 
AMG_MD said:
First and foremost you need to improve your English. Oops I forgot - you're an IMG, and you have a low bar to scale. Disregard.

"If you don't like FMG.....blah" - well, I don't dislike them either. I just was trying to discuss quality of education.


Riiight.. Instead of just grouping all FMG into one pot.. why don't you tell me which schools you think are subpar. There are many foreign schools that are great schools and which some US applicants would rather attend.

Examples.. Cambridge, Oxford, U of London, U of Sydney, U of Melbourne, Trinity, etc.. etc.. I doubt many US grads would want to go to some random state school if they were accepted at frickin cambridge.

Also.. just because an IMG is from another country and has difficulty speaking english, that does not reflect the quality of their medical education. I'd like to see how m¨ch you would get made fun of if you tried to go to do your residency training in Prague and you couldnt speak Czec worth a crap... they'd prossibly think your US training was pretty crap.. Think about it.

Anyways.. it's not up to you to decide this. IF any IMG passes their ECMFG and is certified. THe US Law says they are on equal standing with you. So give it up! You can say what you want, but its pointless.. natural selection will weed out the good docs from the bad.. regardless of what schooll you graduated from US or abroad.. No prestigous residency director is going to want some ****ty doc even if he grad from a US school. this is pointless and stupid. Less end this thread. :thumbup:
 
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