The Value of Class Rank?

[InfiniVet]

So I was (apparently morbidly) curious in what my class rank is. After hearing the number, I replied "Uh sir, did you forget to divide by 5?" 😛

Just kidding.

Seriously though I felt pretty alarmed and defeated for a few moments until he reassured me that rank isn't everything in terms of scoring a residency/internships...that it's more of who you know to write a good referral, etc.

Any weight to this, or was he just trying to keep me from fainting in his office?

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[sofficat]

I don't have much to add, except that I know how you feel.
I was very proud of my straight B's my first semester and I had to know my rank for a scholarship..... 72 out of 95. What?! I thought I did great... all B's (some of them oh-so-close to A's) and I'm in the bottom quarter of my class? eh- oh well. I'm doing great and that's all I should care about. When you think about this- this IS vet school and EVERYONE is freakin smart, so don't let it get to you 😉

 

[tealamutt]

from what I have been told (by people who actually select residents and interns) is what you were told Infin. Our class rank is separated by fractions of points and I would be yours is as well. People looking for residents want someone who is good to work with, learns things quickly, knows how to put the pieces together (so to speak), etc. Sometimes the person at the top of the class only knows how to study well and doesn't necessarily make the best resident. Definitely keep grades up, but work on making connections because a personal reference will go miles further than top 10 ranking.

 

[Bill59]

Class rank is not everything when it comes to getting a competitive internship. But it's real important. With the rampant grade inflation endemic at certain veterinary colleges, many intern selection committees focus on class rank even more than GPA as a realistic assessment of relative academic achievement.

Think about it -- if everything else were equal, would you rather hire someone from the top 10% of the class or bottom 10%?

Of course everything else is not always equal so if your class rank is less competitive you need to convince them your other assets are better than the other applicants, things like LORs, leadership, experience, publications and so on.

 

[No Imagination]

In med schools I know a good score on your Step? exams as well as your Nat. Cert. exams (sorry, don't know what there called) but I heard they can land you great residencies despite your med school grades and class rank.

Is it the same for vets?

 

[chris03333]

In med schools I know a good score on your Step? exams as well as your Nat. Cert. exams (sorry, don't know what there called) but I heard they can land you great residencies despite your med school grades and class rank.

Is it the same for vets?

veterinarians do not take step exams (or I should say not equivalent to USMLE step exams)

 

[InfiniVet]

Hrmm.

Sort of a mixed vote so far.

I suppose I will rely on doing my best to harp on my other abilities. I do have an extraordinary talent to blow each vein I hit, AND I taught several other people how to get the same result. Now that's leadership.
No? Not impressed? Maybe I'll omit that one then.

I started out in vet school absolutely convinced that I'd never be interested in doing ANY internship...now I'm not so sure. Thanks brain for screwing up my future!

 

[No Imagination]

Thanks brain for screwing up my future!

There are a lot of us pre-vet people who have no sympathy for your brain (It was good enough to get you into a Vet school) 🙂

 

[RazorDoc2010]

We had a resident/intern panel last semester, and it seemed to be very dependent on what area you're wanting to go into. For instance, the intern doing a public health/food animal program said anything with food animal is, in general, much more lenient on grades, class rank, etc.

Just wanted to throw that little wrench in there.

 

[Bill59]

Yeah, there are some internships and residencies that are much less competitive than others.

 

[RazorDoc2010]

Yeah, there are some internships and residencies that are much less competitive than others.

Bill, which would you consider "less competitive"? And which would you consider the most competitive?

 

[InfiniVet]

There are a lot of us pre-vet people who have no sympathy for your brain (It was good enough to get you into a Vet school) 🙂

Hey that's what my husband said, "At least you HAVE a class rank."
It's very good perspective.


Bill59: Thanks for shootin' me straight and not beating around the bush.

 

[tealamutt]

Our class rank is literally separated by fractions of points, as I imagine are many classes. So someone who is ranked, say 5th in the class may have just gotten 8 or 10 points higher in as little as one class than someone ranked say, 40th. Last year's clinical pathology class had people getting letters because they were in the bottom 10% (standard operating proceedure) when they were scoring 93% overall in the class. Just another thing to keep in mind.

 

[StealthDog]

They often mention to us in discussions about residencies that, while GPA/class rank is of course important, your LORs are important too. So, if you know what you eventually would like to do a residency in, let the clinician in your rotation(s) of interest know at the beginning of your rotation, and tell them you hope to get a LOR from them at the end. That way they can keep a little closer eye on you... then you just cross your fingers and hope you rock the rotation 🙂

 

[Bill59]

Bill, which would you consider "less competitive"? And which would you consider the most competitive?

Academic internships are more competitive than private practice internships, and among private practice programs the larger, well know ones are more competitive than smaller ones (some of which actually go unfilled).

For residencies here's a rough idea, mostly my impression not based on statistics so no whining:

Most competitive: small animal surgery and ophtho

Next most: ACVIM (IM, neuro, cardio, onco), radiology, emergency/critical care, zoo

Next: anesthesia, derm, dentistry, large animal medicine, LA surgery

Next: nutrition, behavior, pathology -- anatomic and clin (doesn't go through match), shelter

Academics are less important for residency than for internship because performance during internship is a big factor

 

[RazorDoc2010]

Academic internships are more competitive than private practice internships, and among private practice programs the larger, well know ones are more competitive than smaller ones (some of which actually go unfilled).

For residencies here's a rough idea, mostly my impression not based on statistics so no whining:

Most competitive: small animal surgery and ophtho

Next most: ACVIM (IM, neuro, cardio, onco), radiology, emergency/critical care, zoo

Next: anesthesia, derm, dentistry, large animal medicine, LA surgery

Next: nutrition, behavior, pathology -- anatomic and clin (doesn't go through match), shelter

Academics are less important for residency than for internship because performance during internship is a big factor

Awesome...thanks for the input Bill.

 

[hopefulvet21]

I'm almost definitely going to an accredited school abroad- thinking Melbourne or RVC...I am pretty sure they do grades differently and I don't even know if they have class rank during vet school. Also, the instructors there probably have less connections with doctors in the USA, simply because they're in different countries. Would I even be considered for an internship or residency then? Specializing is something I think I would want to do, possibly in cardiology, but if I go to a school abroad would it be likely for me to achieve that in the US? Or would I probably have to go for it in whatever country I'm in?

(Bill59, how do you always know so much!?)

 

[Bill59]

There are several challanges graduates of non-US schools face in getting a US internship.

If you aren't a US citizen, you need a visa. These days it can be hard getting the visa in the short time between the match date (March 3 this year) and the start date (around June 15).

Many non-US schools don't have the same grading scales and class rank, which makes it difficult to compare applicants.

Some non-US schools do not have the same level of clinical training as others. This shouldn't be a problem with AVMA-accredited schools.

At some schools, students don't graduate in time to start an internship.

But it's still doable. Residencies tend to be easier for non-US graduates to get.

Specializing is something I think I would want to do, possibly in cardiology, but if I go to a school abroad would it be likely for me to achieve that in the US? Or would I probably have to go for it in whatever country I'm in?

If you want to become board certified in ACVIM-cardiology (American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine) you have to complete an approved residency. Right now I think these are all in the US or Canada.

There is ECVIM-cardiology (European College of Veterinary Internal Medicine) They have approved residencies in several European countries, Bern, Utrecht, Giessen and so on.

 

[hopefulvet21]

thanks Bill. I'm already a US citizen so that eliminates one problem. You said residencies would be easier to get for non-US grads than internships...but I thought you have to do an internship before a residency😕. Are all internships a year long, or are most? If I did my internship in the country I was studying in, would it still be just as easy to get a residency in the US afterward? If you become board certified abroad, do you have to go through some sort of testing process to transfer that back to the US?

 

[Bill59]

You said residencies would be easier to get for non-US grads than internships...but I thought you have to do an internship before a residency

Yep. I'm saying it's often easier to get a residency after an internship compared to getting an internship after school.

Are all internships a year long, or are most?

Yes, usually 12-13 months.

If I did my internship in the country I was studying in, would it still be just as easy to get a residency in the US afterward?

Compared to what? Your best chance for a residency is usually an internship at a well recognized program. For US residencies this usually means a N. American academic internship or a big private program like Angell or AMC. But some of the non-N. American internships are beginning to get a good reputation.

If you become board certified abroad, do you have to go through some sort of testing process to transfer that back to the US?

Depends on what you mean by transfer. For the purpose of licensing in the US, board certification means squat, you're either a licensed veterinarian or you're not.

If you're looking for a job, many places in the US consider the European boards equal to American boards. But some don't. In some cases this is because you may not be able to train residents for US boards. Some specialty colleges have reciprocity with European colleges but not all, but the trend is towards increased reciprocity.

And if you're starting a specialty practice, it's a matter of convincing your referring veterinarians.

 

[pressmom]

Both of my mentors at school are foreign citizens/foreign graduates and have done their residencies in the US.

One graduated from a Canadian vet school at least 15-20 years ago (haven't asked the exact date and don't know when the school actually became AVMA accredited), did a couple of years in a quality practice, went back and did a residency at an American CVM and went on faculty at an American CVM.

Another graduated from a European CVM (non AVMA accredited), did her internship there, did her residency at an American CVM, and is now on faculty at an American CVM.

There are a few others that have similar stories, but I don't know them as well as I haven't sat down and talked to them like I have these two.

So it is totally possible to be a foreign graduate (AVMA accredited or not) and do a residency here in the US.

 

[tealamutt]

For people who are thinking of equine internships here is an important point that came up at our mentoring group from several gals starting internships this spring: Check your Deadlines!! Many of them located internships at private practices through AAEP (I think a lot don't use the match) and several of the deadlines were earlier than listed on the AAEP site.

Also, a number of them had the clinics call and move the deadline forward if the student and previously contacted them with interest. Two of the girls had offers of internships and needed to make decisions within 8 hours so make sure you know where that internship ranks for you! Also, highly recommended you go visit to make sure the practice is the right one for you.

that whole equine world is pretty cutthroat and competitive but if you're planning on internships/residencies in this area, you already know this! I'll stick to cows and small ruminants!

 

[Herpvet2011]

I'll throw out a little more info for you:

As some people already said, grades and class rank will matter more when it comes to residencies that are more competitive such as surgery, optho and zoo med. However, the professional contacts you make throughout your time in vet school are right behind scholastic statistics in importance. The residency programs don't just want someone who can produce straight A's. If you can secure good letters of recommendation from veterinarians with good reputations, you are definitely increasing your chances. It's also a good idea to get involved in some research and try to get a couple pubs in the journals. A current zoo resident told me that being involved with research publications can be one of the most, if not the most important factor, in applying for zoo residency.

 

[alonepear]

With the rampant grade inflation endemic at certain veterinary colleges, many intern selection committees focus on class rank even more than GPA as a realistic assessment of relative academic achievement.

I'm morbidly curious -- is grade inflation really a problem at some vet schools? Is this well-know but hush-hush sort of info, is it published or been officially looked into, or is it just hearsay? Just curious 😀

 

[Bill59]

Whether or not it's a problem depends on your point of view I suppose. But it's certainly happening at some schools. When you see a graduate with a 4.95 GPA and they're ranked 25th out of a class of 75, you get the feeling something ain't quite right --- all the children can't be above average.

But it's well documented in higher education in general as well as medical (MD) school, where there's quite a few publications about this.

 

[VAgirl]

Whether or not it's a problem depends on your point of view I suppose. But it's certainly happening at some schools. When you see a graduate with a 4.95 GPA and they're ranked 25th out of a class of 75, you get the feeling something ain't quite right --- all the children can't be above average.

I was thinking about this the other night as I was contemplating how poorly my cardio physiology exam was going to go...

So, most vet schools seem to have a policy that you can only have maybe 2 or so Ds all through vet school. Which means that, by and large, the people who are passing (the overwhelming majority of the students) are getting Cs or above. Generally, with the bell curve, a "C" is average. Under these circumstances, though, haven't we essentially just changed what the average grade is. By definition, half of the distribution cannot be at or below a C under these conditions.

So isn't the school's policy of what is a passing grade (not a bad policy) at least partially responsible for the fact that C no longer means average?

Just random thoughts. 🙂

 

[yakpool]

I have a question regarding ranking: are you ranked purely based on your academic performance (exam scores), or your clinical rotation score will also be included?

 

[Bill59]

GPA and class rank are based on all the courses you take. At most veterinary schools, hospital rotations are courses and you are graded (sometimes pass/fail).