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Theriogenology specialty

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by akitavet, Apr 11, 2007.

  1. akitavet

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    anyone know any theriogenologists or reproductive specialists in general? I am shadowing friday at a small animal reproductive center and I get to see a surgical AI (AWESOME!!!). I also put in a call about shadowing with a bovine service. Anyone know anything about this field as a prospect for specialty? I talked with a regular small animal vet about it, and he said there's no market for it, but then I have breeder friends who will drive from Tulsa to Cleveland to see Dr. Hutch for AI. My thoughts are that its probably a viable specialty if you are going to have a mixed animal practice. That seems really really cool to me. I could easily see me doing that as a career. What do you guys think?
     
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  3. hoodle

    hoodle UC-Davis DVM/PhD

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    Equine theiogenology is HUGE. think racehorses. think kentucky, north carolina, etc. big market (but narrow), big money, too!

    Also, i know a theriogenologist at New Bolton who works on boar pig sperm. don't know what she does, but she's there!
     
  4. Nexx

    Nexx 2 weeks and counting

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    Your small animal vet is wrong. Plain and simple. Yes there is no 'market' for it really right now. Why? Because it is a growing field! Was there a large market for cardiologists 20 years ago (outside of cardiopet)? No, not to the extent there is now.

    So frankly if you can get in, graduate, and specialize and come up with a good business model and find a good customer base (FL is definitely a good location) you could make a career out of it in small animals.

    But there are ethical implications. Why breed MORE animals with the millions of homeless pets out there? Will you breed animals with known congenital defects? etc...
     
  5. QTkitty

    QTkitty CSU PVM class of 2011

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    I don't know how big AI really is. In some food animal productions they use AI to synchronize or ensure a better reproductive outcome than with natural cover alone. Racehorses on the other hand can be bred by natural cover only at this time. From what I've heard, this wont be changing any time in the near future. It depends on the breed association (thoroughbreds are a big NO, but some other assoc. may allow it).
     
  6. Hollycozza

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    I'm planning to do a month long reproductive elective next year. Mostly so I can be skilled at embryo transfer, etc, for dairy practice.

    I think its really cool that the leading lights of human reproductive research in Australia are mostly agricultural scientists who developed the techniques with farm animals.

    I have a non-vet friend who travels the world doing AI, mostly on goats but also on dogs, budgies, etc, etc.....
     
  7. Wisco

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    one thing about race horses, thoroughbreds cant be artificially inseminated (as long as you want it registered). but any other horses. I am definitely interested in reproductive physiology.

    woops didnt realize someone already said that sorry.
     
  8. eventualeventer

    eventualeventer Medical Tire Fire

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    Oops, double post.
     
  9. eventualeventer

    eventualeventer Medical Tire Fire

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    AI is HUGE in the sporthorse world. I *think* that the Jockey Club is the only major registry that cares about live cover; sporthorse TB's, WB's, and IDSH's are all commonly bred by AI. The vet I work for breeds literally dozens of mares each year. He doesn't really specialize in it, since he likes doing the medicine and lameness (and neonatology!), but he is one the go-to guys in the area, esp. for frozen semen; he does embryo transfer but doesn't have recipient mares. Most clients that do ET use NANDI or CSU.

    I've come to appreciate the process of watching the follicle grow, the ebb and flow of uterine edema, and so on. Therio doesn't interest me as much as medicine and lameness, but the more he breeds, the more babies we get to play with the next year. Squee! :biglove:

    Plus, you end up with the biggest honking forearm muscles ever from all those palps! :laugh:
     
  10. hoodle

    hoodle UC-Davis DVM/PhD

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    There's more to therio than just AI, though! In terms of sheer, concentrated numbers of babies born (and thus, problems in foaling, foal care, mare care, etc etc etc) I think racehorses win. Sport horses, because of AI... they can be anywhere! Racehorses, though, get bred in hotspots, and there's tons of therio work there.

    but yes, sporthorse breeding is so cool. EventualEventer, I'm jealous of all your exposure! I spent a month in Southern Pines, NC shadowing an equine vet there, and like your guy, he's not a repro man but becomes one once a year, doing palps, ultrasound, AI, etc. It was engrossing, and I knew so little about it, I wished it went on for longer.

    Neonatology is also a burgeoning area of specialty. That means you don't do the getting mares pregnant part - you do the sick babies afterwards. Many are "dummy" foals (lack of oxygen during birth), and various other ailments as well (at New Bolton, there was a foal who's mom kicked him in the head... etc).
     
  11. iglover

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    well i have been concentrating in the field of theriogenology for the past three years..i have done bovine, equine and have been working in canine reproduction since september...i loved repro medicine until i got into canine repro...the clients are usually AWFUL not to mention the schedule..you have to be willing to do repro work on holidays, your birthday, your time off..basically any time or any day..and it can become extremely monotanous...i think that i will always have a hand in small animal repro work but im not sure if i will still pursue becoming a board certified theriogenologist for small animals like i thought i would before having canine repro experience... anyways if you have more questions about good vets to work for reply to me..i have been working for one of the leading small animal repro people and i would be happy to give you some advice:)
     
  12. twh11

    twh11 ISU CVM Class of 2011

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    I know several people in the equine reproduction field. I volunteered at Colorado State University's Equine Reproduction Lab for a summer and a semester and worked with Dr. McCue and Dr. Bruemmer. (Dr. McCue is a vet and worked the mares. Dr. Bruemmer has a PHD and works with the stallions) I really enjoyed the field and hope to do some equine reproduction on the side when I become a vet.
     
  13. eventualeventer

    eventualeventer Medical Tire Fire

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    Hoodle (interesting name, btw, has a nice ring to it), I looooove the babies. At least from a tech perspective -- and probably a vet perspective -- you either love them or you hate them, because they are an incredible amount of work. Because we have a clinic (and we're cheaper than Leesburg), we get a number of babies each year. Some dummies, a few in for periosteal stripping (although I haven't gotten to see that yet :( ), some with hot joints and sepsis, some, OK, a bunch, that are a bit older and have diarrhea and/or pneumonia. Sometimes I think I could do without the diarrhea babies, such as the other weekend when I spent half an hour washing and drying a pathetic looking little guy*, but they are all so gratifying when they start bouncing around the stall.

    *It took so long because he was brought to the clinic on a stretcher in the back of an SUV and had soaked the stretcher and his entire side with bloody diarrhea on the trip over.
     
  14. birdvet2006

    birdvet2006 Glasgow c/o 2006

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    The medical director where I work is a board certified theriogenologist and also board certified ACVIM.

    It's nice to have someone around to ask about repro questions, and neonate/paediatric questions. She knows everything from testicular problems to AI to reproductive ultrasound. She has worked for Guide Dogs for the Blind, which is the type of organization that I really believe needs to be breeding (perhaps I'm biased b/c I was a puppy raiser for that org.).

    In school the focus was mostly on farm animal and equine reproduction, but we did have a guest lecturer speak on small animal repro for a few hours. We had to watch a video of dogs "doing it"!! At least we didn't have to watch them collect semen from a dog (which I hear goes on where I work but thankfully I haven't seen yet).
     
  15. rexosaurus

    rexosaurus CSU PVM c/o 2012

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    there is also opportunity for repro specialists in research such as teratology studies
     
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  17. Gwenevre

    Gwenevre Research Pig Chick

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    Necro-bumping this thread.
    I have a very keen interest in theriogenology, and I've been trying to shadow a local bovine theriogenologist.
    My question/dilemma is this. For vet school I've applied to Purdue, Ohio, and Illinois. Interviewing at Illinois, rejected from Purdue, on standby with Ohio. I've been shadowing a equine chiropractor who's engaged to a vet, and after hearing about my career goals, the vet said that I shouldn't go to Illinois and try again at Purdue. The chiropractor (who's also a vet) says I should get my degree by any means necessary, and then focus on getting a specialty.
    So I'm not sure whether I should even continue with the application process and interview at Illinois anymore, since Illinois was at the bottom of my list anyways, and possibly try again next year at Purdue with a heap-ton more LA and research hours (which I'm getting now) or continue on and think about this later.
     
  18. jesskb

    jesskb KSU CVM c/o 2015

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    Could you explain deeper about your career goals? Boarded? Small animal, large,mixed? Academia, public practice, private practice, industry, research?

    Not that your goals might change, but if you have a direction you are heavily leaning on that changes things. Most everyone here will tell you go to your IS state if possible for financial reasons because in the long run it doesn't matter. I agree if you want to go into private practice immediately post DVM. But if boarded is your plan, networking is important which makes the school you go to important (more important than the extra financial burden? That's your personal opinion). You don't have to be boarded to focus on Therio as a career path either, especially if you are food animal focused.

    (Ps sorry if these thoughts are jumbled, but I just walked out of baking dinner which is a twice a year occurrence for me and it takes all my brain power lol)
     
  19. Gwenevre

    Gwenevre Research Pig Chick

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    I do want to be boarded, so I have a wide berth of opportunities available to me, since some states require the DVM to do some repro procedures. I would prefer to work with large animals. I might pursue academia, I like the idea of teaching in higher ed, and I have done some teaching during my undergrad as a TA. I'm just in a weird though position I feel and I need people to help me get my focus back.
     
  20. jesskb

    jesskb KSU CVM c/o 2015

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    Then my recommendation to you is to go to the school that has a DACT in the area or species you are most interested in (assuming the additional cost factor is considered). Make it known early your interest and investigate the different paths to becoming a diplomate so you may adequately prepare for the path you want to take (hint: internship/residency isn't the only route, although that is probably the best to prepare you for a academic career - most of which nowadays have a PhD because the applicant pool for academia is competitive). Know that a Therio residency considers 3.2 the minimum gpa for a competitive application (according to my two DACT mentors) and the pass rate for boards this year was a 40% (2/5 passed). It is not a path to consider lightly so if weigh your dream convictions against the pros and cons of both schools.
     
  21. WildZoo

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    Did the vet give a particular reason for not going to Illinois? Maybe it's just me, but there are no guarantees, even if you think your application will have been improved a ton, that doesn't guarantee that Purdue would agree. It happens. In this situation, I would take the acceptance (if you get it) and figure out the specialty stuff later, because you very well may change your mind after you've been in school and been exposed to the different fields more. Kind of a one step at a time approach. But I'm just kinda pulling that out of my head, others probably know better.
     
  22. Gwenevre

    Gwenevre Research Pig Chick

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    WZ, I was told that the vet thought that Purdue or Ohio would have better opportunities in that field for experience. I haven't talked to the vet directly, I shadow her finace and they were discussing my career last night xD
    But that's a good point. I'm still going to go to the interview and decide for myself if Illinois would be a good fit for me, whether I get an acceptance or not. Call it mid-application crisis, but I think I've been over-thinking too much since graduation.
     
  23. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    You can always get experience with boarded therio vets outside of Illinois, if they don't have one. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think it really makes that big of a difference if the school you are at has a boarded therio vet. Other than you may not have to travel then to get experience with that type of vet. But during the first few years of school you will have to seek out that experience and on final year, depending on where you go to school, there is no guarantee that a repro rotation will be a core rotation or that you will actually get that for an elective rotation. So, you could go to a school with a boarded therio vet and still not end up on a therio rotation... would suck, but it can happen. Basically, you are going to have to reach out and make connections and while it might be a little bit easier at a school with a therio vet, you can still do it at a school without one...

    Just my thoughts, and someone can yell at me if they disagree... I am tired and kind of rambling.
     
  24. jesskb

    jesskb KSU CVM c/o 2015

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    I totally see where you are coming from DVMDream and it happened to me - our clinical DACT left half way through my senior year so I no longer had a Therio rotation - but because I went there I worked for her for three years, she still wrote a eLOR for me, allowed me to be published four times etc. Can you get experience outside of your school? Sure can but its a heck of a lot easier if they are in the building (I had to apply to other schools Therio rotations after she announced she's leaving and now I get three weeks to get to know them instead of four years.) . Also because there is no guarantee you'll get the rotation in the first half of the year before match if that's your plan. For Therio, networking is number one for applications according to all of the residencies I've talked to over the last two years and if you have one in house that's a step ahead for you.

    Like I said above, it really depends on how sure you want it as to if its worth the expense and in the ops case the extra year and risk of not getting in.
     
  25. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019

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    For what it's worth, Michigan State has a pretty prominent DACT (although I suppose they are all important). She also does a lot of international work. I don't know much about your experience options, however. I know there's a clerkship, but I imagine that you could find that at a majority of other schools. It's just another option if you decide you need a school with better opportunities for therio.

    I agree 100% that you should take an acceptance and make your own experiences outside of class if you have to. Being able to network is also really important, but I actually have been given really interesting advice regarding residencies: While it's important to network with your boarded vets while in school, apparently schools are usually less likely to pick their own students for residents. So I wouldn't get too hung up on not wanting to go to Illinois if Purdue has a better Therio program if that's true. I can't find any residency statistics, though.

    Can anyone weigh in on that?
     
  26. summerwind

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    Thoroughbreds must be natural cover, but from what I've seen AI seems to be pretty big in the Standardbred/harness racing industry. I shadowed an equine vet practice that went to a lot of the local Standardbred training facilities and during breeding season 90% of the appointments were breeding mares. I think its also used pretty commonly with dairy cows if you have an interest in LA.
     
  27. jesskb

    jesskb KSU CVM c/o 2015

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    @pinkpuppy9 I've heard that too but I've also heard your application takes a hit if you don't have a diplomate in your area of interest recommending you. At some point you have to go to a school that supports your needs. There are also only 10-15 academic therio residencies out there, a good number of which are equine only - it is hard to get a firm number because most have less spots then the years it takes to complete so they don't offer every year. So you may not even have the option to apply to the school you go to.

    Key word being better...but if the program is practically non existent
    (E.g. I'd never tell a small animal therio person to come to K-State: the only clinician that wanted to do canine repro left this year. I discussed with two internal medists how they intend to turn away all non-emergent therio cases because they hate those cases and have no interest, etc. = non-supportive environment)

    I think it all comes down to how bad do you want it - would you not even go to vet school if such an option was closed to you? If you decide to not go the boarded route, will you still want to have a therio focused practice (in which case your only training will be vet school + CE + time you spend outside of vet school reading up on it)? Is an academic career really important to you (or can you network in the private/industry sector in order to go down that path)?
    The answers to those questions should help guide you to if you can make Illinois work or if the risk of reapplying next year is worth it. How important is it to you?

    PS: Are you willing to take the opinion of one veterinarian (who you don't even know)? I'm glad you are going to Illinois to investigate on your own!
     
  28. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    Going to add in, your time spent on something outside of your own vet school isn't limited to just reading. Get out there and network. If your only plan is to have a letter from the one boarded therio person at your school, well it will probably be fine. But go out there and meet more of them. Email private practice ones, see if they'll let you come hang out with them during your first couple years during breaks. Email therio vets at other schools, talk with them. Go to conferences dealing with therio. Do a rotation or two your final year outside of your own school with a therio vet. You can quickly begin to see that if you are proactive in getting experience and networking that it probably won't even matter if there is a boarded therio vet at your specific school. Having the boarded therio vet at your school just makes getting some experience easier, but I wouldn't limit yourself to just that one experience.
     
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  29. jesskb

    jesskb KSU CVM c/o 2015

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    Ha thanks for stating this - in my head "vet school" = all of that because it was during the time you are in vet school. After vet school my understanding are those options are much more limited, due to work and paying loans and stuff

    It's too bad that conferences, traveling for experience during breaks, rotations outside of your school, etc. can add a lot of expense to your debt (which you may have to take out in loans anyways) otherwise I think that would be a more viable solution. Plus these are things you can always do while building a four year relationship with the DACT at your school.

    I'm wondering how hard it would be to present at the SFT/DACT meeting with the backing of someone not at your school. That has been the best networking opportunity for me, but I did the research year round at school, plus academics tend to have a better idea of what abstracts get selected in my opinion... I don't think impossible but harder? Maybe?
     
  30. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    :laugh: yeah, technically all still vet school but I don't think people realize how much you can do during vet school if you look for the opportunities.

    And the money thing just sucks all around, unfortunately.

    I'm not sure about the presenting research. I'm sure it is probably easier to do and present with someone at your school, but research is one of those things that is really good though not necessary to apply for a residency.
     
  31. jesskb

    jesskb KSU CVM c/o 2015

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    [QUOTE="DVMDream, post: 16110158, member: 274557], but research is one of those things that is really good though not necessary to apply for a residency.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry I didn't mean to apply necessary for application. What I meant was research allowed me to present at the conference and afterward I met several diplomats that wanted to discuss my research, remembered me from presenting the year before, etc. it allowed a stronger connection then just going to the conference or even introducing myself individually at the conference.

    That was the most valuable networking for me.
     
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  32. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    I understand. And I agree that is going to be much more valuable than just introducing yourself.
     
  33. Gwenevre

    Gwenevre Research Pig Chick

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    Thanks for the advice everyone! Like I said, I think I'm having a sort of mid-application crisis, and over-thinking my future just a tad too much. I'll admit, I really really like therio right now, but I know that things can change during school. And I know whatever path I end up pursuing, I'm going to have to work outside of vet school sometimes to reach that.
    Though I am curious, how important is research in applying for residencies? I had been e-mailing a bovine therio doc a while back asking about the path to a therio career and she didn't mention anything about research, just gaining hands-on experience with palpation and ultrasounding techniques.
     
  34. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019

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    Again, advice given to me: To be eligible for boarding, you have to have five publications under your belt (for ACZM at least, I have no clue if that number varies in other specialties). When I talked to someone about having research prior to applying for residencies, I was told that applicants who already have a few publications done are typically preferable. That way, your mentor has to put less work/time/effort into you into order for you to qualify for boarding. They won't have to set aside as many resources for you or literally try to think of projects that their institution could have you complete.
     
  35. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    Depends on the board you are qualifying for. ACVP requires 5 case studies instead of research for instance and at least 5 years experience
     
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  36. Gwenevre

    Gwenevre Research Pig Chick

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    I was reading through the ACT page and it looks like they only want one publication, as well as teaching, clinical skills assessment, etc "Publication may be original research, a clinical case report or an in depth review article." Also an LOR from two DACTs.
     
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  37. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    Most of the boarded specialties that I have looked up (internal med, critical care and surgery) are one publication or case report....

    Zoo vets are just crazy... more reason why people can't get into that area of vet med.
     
  38. WildZoo

    WildZoo Illegal in all 50
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    It's probably a way of necessarily limiting the number of people who qualify. There aren't a ton of zoo jobs to go around, so it makes sense in a way.
     
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  39. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    I guess... but there are plenty of people not boarded in zoo med that still get hired at aquariums or zoos (maybe not large zoos, but I know of a vet that worked at an aquarium and I know of others that helped at zoos that aren't accredited)... so meh, not sure how much that really helps.
     
  40. WildZoo

    WildZoo Illegal in all 50
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    I guess I was more referring to the jobs that do require you to be boarded :)
     
  41. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    [​IMG]



    Sorry, I had to, it was the first thing I thought of...
     
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  42. WildZoo

    WildZoo Illegal in all 50
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    You're not wrong :laugh:
     
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  43. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019

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    Plus the fact that those who do get the positions stay for the rest of their lives....
    I also thing the distinct lack of information for nearly all captive wildlife species is one of the reasons why they require so many publications. Who knew one could be considered the leading expert of something just because they were the first to publish on it?
    Totally true. However, the area is starting to move towards preferring boarded vets, especially large zoos that employ multiple vets and offer higher salaries. I'm waiting for the AZA to change the vet requirement from having a contracted vet to having a full-time veterinary staff, and I'm surprised it hasn't yet. It's difficult to manage zoo animals without daily veterinary presence, but then funding becomes an issue. A boarded vet will of course probably beat out almost any other applicant, but not all zoos can afford them. It's also becoming more popular for unboarded vets to apply for boarding later in their careers (you can either complete a residency, or have 6 years in a zoo for ACZM). I'd say you don't always have to be ACZM, though. There's ACT, ACVN, ACVP, avian, and reptile/amphibian that zoos also appreciate.

    With the way things are going for zoos right now, I'd say we're at a fork in the road. Things will either go downhill, based on how society continues to perceive captive wildlife. If that doesn't happen, I see zoos expanding and hiring more and having their conservation efforts be much more appreciated. Hopefully then, veterinary teams will expand to allow us newcomers to get their careers started.

    Also, it's generally frowned upon to spend time career-wise in an unaccredited zoo, whether you are a keeper or a veterinarian. The opinion on that varies from person to person, of course, but I'd say its the general consensus based on advice I've been given for both career paths. Unfortunately, AZA accreditation requirements automatically exclude a LOT of really great zoos that can't afford to meet some of the highest standards AZA holds. I think that stigma exists just because AZA-accreditation automatically gives the impression that the zoo is incapable of mistakes....but that's another discussion.
     
  44. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    Perhaps that is why my post mentioned that they aren't working at large zoos?? Clearly I already realized this and I do know what AZA is and what they require...
     
  45. WildZoo

    WildZoo Illegal in all 50
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    I was going to say inb4 DVMD's "tl;dr" post but I was too slow :(
     
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  46. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019

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    Why so defensive? I never once disagreed with what you said.

    I said as a whole, the profession is moving towards boarding. That is not in any way disagreeing or correcting your post. If you read what I said, I actually reiterated that it is the larger zoos that hire the boarded vets. And then I later mentioned my bit about unaccredited zoos. It's not a big deal.

    Additionally, my discussing AZA requirements was not to imply that you didn't know about those. I was just talking about them. Perhaps we could discuss the topic instead?
     
  47. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    Meh, I read it... I just get annoyed when people repeat what I already said, just makes me wonder if they actually read what I posted.
     
  48. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019

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    Well, I'll be sure to note that in my "What annoys DVMDream" notepad. I'm already on page five :p
     
  49. DVMDream

    DVMDream Don't disturb the snowflakes
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    I may also be annoyed by my toxicology homework too..... ;)



    No, I just get irritated when people tell me something like I didn't know about it even though I already stated that exact thing (that is how I read your post, but clearly you didn't intend it that way). Just a misunderstanding... no big deal. :)
     
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  50. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    They won't go to requiring all vets because not all zoos can afford that. That's one of the main reason contracted vets still exist. And the AZA isn't likely to change that without alienating some of the veterinary community. Or even potentially removing veterinary care from some zoos.
     
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  51. pinkpuppy9

    pinkpuppy9 Illinois c/o 2019

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    Well that's why I said the AZA requirements sometimes prevent great zoos from becoming accredited. While the standards of care are excellent, they essentially block any great sanctuaries/centers that receive volunteer veterinary care or anything similar, even if that vet makes a visit more than the AZA-required biomonthly visits by a contracted veterinarian. I will say that there are certain situations where bimonthly veterinary care would likely be sufficient, but it varies on collection size/type, participation in breeding programs, etc.

    I really do think that down the road, that requirement might be adjusted, but just my opinion. With the likes of Blackfish damaging zoo and aquarium public images, Copenhagen (obviously not an AZA institution), and any other media-fueled issues, I think there will be an effort to prove that zoos really do care for their animals. I'm not saying they would require a full-time boarded vet, but a full time experienced vet. That, and the whispers of there being potential overhauls in the requirements makes me wonder what they might change. Either way, most zoo guests have no idea what AZA is, which is really unfortunate. I can't tell you how many times I've explained that the oh-so-horrible SeaWorld is accredited just like Animal Kingdom is, and by the same accrediting body.
     
  52. dyachei

    dyachei vet robot pirate zombie
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    You just said you thought they would require boarded vets above. I don't think they will. Nor do I think a full time vet is necessarily of any more benefit than a part time vet. Most PT vets for zoos I know would still drop everything and go to the zoo in emergencies. The thing about emergencies is that they happen at all hours. And full time vets don't necessarily work nights. In addition, there are many zoos that have Boarded part time vets and various agreements with vet schools and the like. I don't think the AZA would dare jeopardize that. It puts the education of future vets at risk.

    Honestly, I don't see it changing that way because it will alienate vets in the community and punishes small zoos that can't afford boarded zoo vets. This is just my opinion, but it's based on my experience in the zoo field and my networking with zoo vets.
     

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