Think About the Prestige ...

[katvu]

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A while ago, someone wrote about his frustration regarding people's failure to recognize the prestige of his school, UPenn of the Ivy Leagues. People following his post seriously blasted him for emotional insecurity, childishness, etc. I'm hoping to bring the issue up again, in a new thread, because there are career-related and other practical things that I hope his detractants, and prospective students, will consider:

1. You're not alone. In Texas, and especially in the insulated immigrant community I come from, you only get the raised eyebrows if your parents can tell their friends that you're going to Harvard or Yale, as many of my friends did. People usually ask me, "StaMford? Where's that?"

2. Prestige does matter. Of course you can get a stellar education anywhere, and success doesn't depend on big-name schools alone. But if you are ambitious (and realistic) about your career plans - particularly if you want to go into academics, research, policy, or management - then the name of your alma mater does raise many bars.

3. Prestige is not empty. Schools get a reputation for a reason. Ever wonder where university rankings come from? Check out the statistics behind the U.S. New & World Report rankings. They're pretty comprehensive, though of course not the ultimate factor in selecting your school.

4. It can be about prestige, but not just prestige. Go where you'd be happy. For me and many others, that means a school that's affordable, strong in my chosen specialty (read: has a high ranking in family and preventive medicine), close to family/friends, and within easy reach of jazz cafes and large bodies of water.

Anybody else experience these problems?

 

[pseudoknot]

Your points 1 and 2 are contradictory, in that people in an insulated immigrant community are unlikely to determine your professional success. #1 really speaks solely to the ego gratification issue, and sure, it's fun to have strangers think highly of you, but the extent to which that should be driving your choices is questionable. As for 2, if you want to go into research or academics in medicine, it's the institution of your residency (and your advisors' names) that will have an effect.

#3: no, prestige doesn't come from nowhere, but neither does it usually correlate well to quality of education. Also, I believe the poster in the other thread was speaking of name recognition to people outside the medical community, and this really has nothing to do with anything. Uh, UCSF? Gee, never heard of it...

 

[superdevil]

i think the reason that post ruffled my feathers (along with others) is that, although prestige clearly has practical relevance (as you have outlined), the OP already attends a HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS school. UPenn's med school is ranked what, 4th in the country? that's fantastic. what kind of person needs more prestige than that? anyone who would interview him in a job setting (med school/residency/career) would be totally impressed. isn't that good enough?

the fact is, academia and the general population are two different worlds. if a toothless hick doesn't know where johns hopkins is, so f***ing what?

 

[OrnotMajestic]

My #1 choice is OHSU (Oregon), and it's ranked by USNews as the #2 primary care medical school in the nation. Yet, it's not considered "prestigious". To each their own, I say.

 

[Fermata]

You're right.

Only the great minds come from the Ivy League.... 🙄

And as far as reputation and helping you get a job......it's called a support network. The school helps place you. This has NOTHING to do with education.

Do you really think organic chemistry is that different at various institutions?

And for most docs - who will end up in primary care - the reputation of your school will mean very little.

Reason?

Do you really think the lay public is in the position to judge what schools are "better"?

How about residencies?

 

[Kazema]

i think the reason that post ruffled my feathers (along with others) is that, although prestige clearly has practical relevance (as you have outlined), the OP already attends a HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS school. UPenn's med school is ranked what, 4th in the country? that's fantastic. what kind of person needs more prestige than that? anyone who would interview him in a job setting (med school/residency/career) would be totally impressed. isn't that good enough?

the fact is, academia and the general population are two different worlds. if a toothless hick doesn't know where johns hopkins is, so f***ing what?

That's exactly what I thought. UPenn is ranked #4 for their undergraduate as well I believe. The OP went to one of the top schools in the country, a school well known by everyone whose opinion he should reasonably care about, and only unknown by people who have no say in his professional or even personal advancement. If people snicker at his school because they've never heard of it, it's really not his problem, it's theirs.

Certainly no reason to feel insecure about his accomplishments.

 

[Mumpu]

1. Who cares what your relatives think. I hope you are not going into medicine because it will make your uncle happy.

2. Not true. What gets you places is hard work. Places that require ass-kissing and fancy school names are not places worth going.

3. US News rankings are bull. Subtle adjustments to the weight of individual factors dramatically rearrange the whole table.

 

[Fermata]

...and only unknown by people who have no say in his professional or even personal advancement. If people snicker at his school because they've never heard of it, it's really not his problem, it's theirs.

Certainly no reason to feel insecure about his accomplishments.

UPenn is a great school. Noone's contesting that.

But if the average layperson........WHO YOU WILL BE SERVING.......doesn't care.....they you need to accept that and move on.

 

[roja]

Do you want to know the real reason that prestige, in the grand scheme of medical school matters? Because it is completely dependent on what residency you want to go into.. because the prestige will depend on the field. If you want to go into internal med or surgery, a school like harvard is very prestigous. however, if you want to do EM, well, not so much.

So, the issue is really rather ridiculous...

 

[PostalWookie]

organic chemistry, and a lot of other things are different between institutions. I go to an ivy, and I've tutored kids from schools like Rutgers, NYU, and Mt. Holyoke (which are all pretty good schools), and it seemed like their classes were not nearly as rigorous. That is not to say that an ivy education is the only way to go, but there are certainly many academic benefits to going to a better school.

 

[Peterock]

Do you really think organic chemistry is that different at various institutions?

It really is. This fallacy is blabbered all over this websites. Since I have now taken classes at both an ave. state school and an elite private school, I really just have to laugh. Organic is taught at a much lower level in less academically prestigious school: think less material, MC questions or other question styles that test for less knowledge, etc.

I'd say a BIG drawback of elite schools is that many focus too much on the theory and not enough on the practical side (that is, the lab). This is ****ty for jobs...

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

In my opinion, caring about medical school rankings is OK if you plan to go into Research or Academic Medicine. After all, many of their faculty - potential mentors - have names that are good to be associated with.

On the other hand, if you plan on going into clinical medicine (like I do), then I feel caring about medical school rankings is (1) vain and (2) naive. Vain because you want to use the school name to impress people. Naive because basing a huge life decision on some ranking is foolish.

For me the decision where to go is chosen by:
(1) Curriculum type (I like PBL.)
(2) Geography (Family is important.)
(3) Structure of the third and fourth years. (I want early elective rotations in order to explore careers.)

I feel that essentially the academic aspect is up to you - I feel that medical school is essentially an exercise in self-teaching.

 

[jlee9531]

Do you want to know the real reason that prestige, in the grand scheme of medical school matters? Because it is completely dependent on what residency you want to go into.. because the prestige will depend on the field. If you want to go into internal med or surgery, a school like harvard is very prestigous. however, if you want to do EM, well, not so much.

So, the issue is really rather ridiculous...

this i agree with. good post.

 

[principessa]

Here's the way I see it:

Prestige has value for many people. A highly ranked school can help you land a competitive residency and it can be your springboard for a career in academia, public policy, etc. Also, I agree with the OP that for the most part, a higher ranking does indicate a better school. This doesn't have much to do with what you learn, but I think it has a lot to do with what you do in med school - the more prestigious schools tend to have better research opportunities, better international opportunities, and tend to be associated with other quality graduate programs, which is good for those who want to do combined degrees. Also, the top schools make it clear that they want to train leaders in medicine, so if you want to leave a mark in the field, the connections and reputation from a top school will probably help you out.

If what you really want to do is become a primary care physician and practice in your hometown, and you aren't really interested in research or policy or anything like that, then you will probably be well served by your state school, whose mission is to train physicians for the people in the state, or a DO school, which tries to train physicians to work in underserved areas. These schools will probably help do what you want to do more than a top tier school would because you end up making connections in the area where you're probably going to end up working, and you will probably get a lot more training in primary care.

I'm not saying that you can't do a competitive residency from an ordinary school or that graduates of top tier schools can't do primary care, but different types of schools tend to be better for people with different goals. The point is to choose a school whose goals match up with your own. I think the reason people around here get so caught up in these debates over prestige is that they don't acknowledge that they have different goals in medicine and different things that they're looking for in a school.

 

[jlee9531]

the degree of difficulty of the content taught for science classes at different institutions is real. but in terms of med school stats - an A is an A. the person who takes classes at a more rigorous instituion may suffer gradewise, but in theory should pay off because it should lead to a better mcat score on the science sections.

 

[BlackstarNYC]

Do you really think organic chemistry is that different at various institutions?
QUOTE]

It really is. This fallacy is blabbered all over this websites. Since I have now taken classes at both an ave. state school and an elite private school, I really just have to laugh. Organic is taught at a much lower level in less academically prestigious school: think less material, MC questions or other question styles that test for less knowledge, etc.

I'd say a BIG drawback of elite schools is that many focus too much on the theory and not enough on the practical side (that is, the lab). This is ****ty for jobs...

I would have killed to have multiple choice in Orgo (which I have seen at some other schools). Once you get to a certain level of school, the difficulty didn't seem to change that much e.g. when I compared to the tests my friends at Harvard and Tufts were taking, it wasn't that different.

EDIT: I'll add a little bit more- I'm not sure how heavily syntheses are stressed at other schools, but it was heavily emphasized here and less elsewhere. That might be why I found the course more challenging. To each his own.

 

[pseudoknot]

I agree here- I go to NYU and compared my organic exams with what my brother will have at Penn State: I would have killed to have multiple choice in that class. Once you get to a certain level of school, the difficulty didn't seem to change that much e.g. when I compared to the tests my friends at Harvard and Tufts were taking, it wasn't that different.

I don't agree at all. We've heard a couple of anecdotes--the plural of anecdote is not data. I've never heard of multiple choice tests in o-chem at any UC campus, but the lesser known UCs don't have much national prestige. For that matter, I know of rigorous, challenging lower division classes at community colleges in California. These too are anecdotes, but it's clearly not universally true that classes are always more rigorous at more prestigous schools. Based on grade inflation, I'd be tempted to argue the opposite.

 

[45408]

DON'T assume that a more prestigious school has a more difficult course. UW-Madison is highly ranked in everything, but their organic chemistry class curve hurt a guy I know because so many people scored A HUNDRED PERCENT ON THE FINAL. As far as I'm concerned, that should be virtually impossible. I go to UW-Milwaukee, and the highest score on our final was a 94% and it dropped off quickly from there. I had a score very near that, and while I haven't received my actual MCAT score, I was doing a swan song on all the o-chem on the practice exams.

I'm sure the reverse is true with other classes, but the point is that instructors can greatly vary the difficulty of a course. In some classes, the book is loosely followed and large parts skipped to make it easier. In other classes, the book must be virtually memorized.

 

[Mumpu]

Erm, what's all the talk about o-chem? It's a completely worthless class for medicine (along with biochem, cell bio and most of histology). The emphasis on research in some of the top schools borders on ridiculous. What's the point of being a physician if you can't properly diagnose or treat even the most basic diseases? IIRC, when the clinical skills portion of Step 2 was first tried at UPenn (the year before it became mandatory), the failure rate was staggering, something like 25%.

 

[Medikit]

Do you really think organic chemistry is that different at various institutions?
QUOTE]

It really is. This fallacy is blabbered all over this websites. Since I have now taken classes at both an ave. state school and an elite private school, I really just have to laugh. Organic is taught at a much lower level in less academically prestigious school: think less material, MC questions or other question styles that test for less knowledge, etc.

I'd say a BIG drawback of elite schools is that many focus too much on the theory and not enough on the practical side (that is, the lab). This is ****ty for jobs...

which unc are you at right now?

 

[JDAWG07]

I agree here- I go to NYU and compared my organic exams with what my brother will have at Penn State: I would have killed to have multiple choice in that class. Once you get to a certain level of school, the difficulty didn't seem to change that much e.g. when I compared to the tests my friends at Harvard and Tufts were taking, it wasn't that different.

EDIT: I'll add a little bit more- I'm not sure how heavily syntheses are stressed at other schools, but it was heavily emphasized here and less elsewhere. That might be why I found the course more challenging. To each his own.

Please don't be so quick to judge Penn State. The calliber of students at PSU ranges highly - from a highly prestigious honors program that is recognized as possibly the nation's best, to people I'm surprised can dress themselves in the morning. For MCAT scores, I've known one student here to get a 43 and I've known others to get in the 20's.

At PSU, there are 3 different organic tracts and the focus is very different in each, in difficulty and breadth. Chem 34 and 35 form the easiest track and students in those classes have easy MC exams and the class is mostly thought of as being about as difficult as general chemistry. Chem 38 and 39 form the next track - which most premeds take. These classes are of moderate difficulty and probably comparable to the organic chem classes at other state schools. And although the exams are MC, the answer choices go up to 'j' for most questions. To have free response questions in this track would simply be impractical because of the large size of the courses (in this course, about 15-25% of the students get A's or A-'s). The hardest track is the honors section: 38H and 39H. Students in these classes have free response exams and the depth of the subject matter that they go into is very high. I'd be interested in knowing which track your brother will be taking.

 

[roja]

Here's the thing. Is orgo harder at some schools? probably. Does it make a difference in terms of how you will do in med school? probably not. And the fact that biochem at <insert prestigious school here> is a b*tch mean you are going to do better in med school? or get into a better school? nope. I know many a biochem MAJOR who didn't do as well in biochem in med school, where I didn't even take it and did well. Thats because much of the undergrad stuff that most people take doesn't have jack to do with what you will learn in med school.

What you want out of a good orgo class etc is one that teaches you the basics and gets you to a point where you will do well on the mcat. Teaching for TPR, I saw many a brilliant student justify thier wrong anwser in some long winded format. HOwever, it didn't mean squat for the mcat. You have to be able to pick out the right multiple choice awnser in a timed fashion.

So you go to a prestigous school. its no gaurantee that doors will be open. What's going to make a difference is that you have something unique in your application. your hobbies, your life, your interests...

 

[Long Dong]

it's clearly not universally true that classes are always more rigorous at more prestigous schools. Based on grade inflation, I'd be tempted to argue the opposite.

👍 I think alot of these people are just trying to justify why they spent so much money on tuition. I know alot of people in my class who turned down these "prestigous" schools just to go to a state med school.

 

[Long Dong]

Erm, what's all the talk about o-chem? It's a completely worthless class for medicine (along with biochem, cell bio and most of histology).

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Biochem, cell bio and histopathology is important in medicine. That is maybe cause I'm biased and doing a summer research in pathology on CD117 (tyrosine kinase receptor, example of cell bio) that when mutated may be a cause of small cell lung carcinoma (one of the most maligant lung cancers) which is definatively diagnosed by the pathologist by immuno-HISTO-chemistry. You can block this recepter with an inhibitor (Gleevec, example of bio chem) as possible treatment. 😀

 

[silkworm]

I just want to add that rigorousness of schools are different, though not necessarily correlated with prestige. A friend of mine transferred from a well-regarded school to another school, his GPA dropped from ~4.0 to ~3.5. He says the competition at the new school is more fierce. I've taken undergraduate science classes in two different large private universities, and there is a definite difference in the average quality of the students.

Though the GPA from different schools may not be equivalent, I doubt the adcomms really cares about it. For medical school admission purpose only, I think it's better to be a excellent student at a easy school, than a medicore student at elite university.

 

[Mumpu]

Long Dong, I'm an MSIII with extensive medical experience prior to med school. I'm yet to use a single piece of biochem, cell bio, or histology (except for peripheral smears and urine sediment which I learned in 15 minutes from a boards review book and not from histo anyway). None of these basic sciences will make you better at diagnosis, management, or patient skills.

I'll grant you that knowing these basics helps to understand some of the pathophys and pharmacology, but the amount taught in medical school is grossly in excess of what's actually needed for that understanding.

 

[LauraMac]

It really is. This fallacy is blabbered all over this websites. Since I have now taken classes at both an ave. state school and an elite private school, I really just have to laugh. Organic is taught at a much lower level in less academically prestigious school: think less material, MC questions or other question styles that test for less knowledge, etc.

I'd say a BIG drawback of elite schools is that many focus too much on the theory and not enough on the practical side (that is, the lab). This is ****ty for jobs...

agree 100%... i've also been to two different schools, one very competitive, one not competitive at all. a class is as hard as the professor makes it. it really does not matter what the material is at all.

 

[Ajay]

1. You're not alone. In Texas, and especially in the insulated immigrant community I come from, you only get the raised eyebrows if your parents can tell their friends that you're going to Harvard or Yale, as many of my friends did. People usually ask me, "StaMford? Where's that?"

Dubya went to Yale and I'd be genuinely surprised if he could spell his name correctly.

You *can* spell your name, right?

 

[Long Dong]

I'm yet to use a single piece of biochem, cell bio, or histology (except for peripheral smears and urine sediment which I learned in 15 minutes from a boards review book and not from histo anyway). None of these basic sciences will make you better at diagnosis, management, or patient skills.

I'll grant you that knowing these basics helps to understand some of the pathophys and pharmacology, but the amount taught in medical school is grossly in excess of what's actually needed for that understanding.

So you have never used a chem 7, CBC, Hct, cardiac enzymes, liver enzymes, etc? These are all bio chem and cell bio things you need to understand what is the pathology and for diagnosing. I guess at my school which is organ systems baised they cut out alot of the basic science that wasn't important, thats what happens when you only have 2 hours of lecture a day. You get only the goods you need.

 

[Ajay]

It really is. This fallacy is blabbered all over this websites. Since I have now taken classes at both an ave. state school and an elite private school, I really just have to laugh. Organic is taught at a much lower level in less academically prestigious school: think less material, MC questions or other question styles that test for less knowledge, etc.

I'd say a BIG drawback of elite schools is that many focus too much on the theory and not enough on the practical side (that is, the lab). This is ****ty for jobs...

I guess they teach you how to make sweeping generalizations too...

 

[Peterock]

I guess they teach you how to make sweeping generalizations too...

👎


Actually, my 30 second post on SDN is going to be published as an all inclusive guide for medical schools so that they can judge their students more clearly. It is not at all intended to be an opinionated blurb that I believe is a general rule.

 

[roja]

So you have never used a chem 7, CBC, Hct, cardiac enzymes, liver enzymes, etc? These are all bio chem and cell bio things you need to understand what is the pathology and for diagnosing. I guess at my school which is organ systems baised they cut out alot of the basic science that wasn't important, thats what happens when you only have 2 hours of lecture a day. You get only the goods you need.

You don't really need biochem and cell bio to be apply to apply chem 7, CBC (which containts the HCT) etc to utilize these tools and make a diagnosis. In fact, I can tell someone that if the sodium is less than 130 than someone is hyponatremic (or any number). I can even teach them an algoriithm for dealing with it.

However having some basic understanding of renal phys, etc will allow someone to think out of the algoriithm or pick up on other things.

The point of the basic sciences is (in terms of medical school) is that they are basic. they give a broad foundation to learn the more complex information for understanding and managing patients.

Undergrad biochem and cell bio are NOT necessary for medical school. Thus, why they aren't req to apply to med school.

 

[Long Dong]

You don't really need biochem and cell bio to be apply to apply chem 7, CBC (which containts the HCT) etc to utilize these tools and make a diagnosis. In fact, I can tell someone that if the sodium is less than 130 than someone is hyponatremic (or any number). I can even teach them an algoriithm for dealing with it.

However having some basic understanding of renal phys, etc will allow someone to think out of the algoriithm or pick up on other things.

The point of the basic sciences is (in terms of medical school) is that they are basic. they give a broad foundation to learn the more complex information for understanding and managing patients.

Undergrad biochem and cell bio are NOT necessary for medical school. Thus, why they aren't req to apply to med school.

I wasn't talking about ungrad biochem and cell bio I was talking about what you learn in med school (esp. mine where they don't have a seperate class for it, but it is taught within an organ system). I agree with you that it is giving me a broad foundation to learn more complex info. Also that histo is important cause without it how are you going to tell certain things apart that will affect your treatment (e.g. lung carciniod w/resection vs small cell of lung w/chemo). I was just stating that some understanding of cell bio, bio chem and histo is important and not totally useless. I do agree that it doesn't need to be taught at graduate student level though.

And do you want someone who memorizes an algorithm or do you want someone who has an understanding of what is going on (isn't this what the debate is about w/CRNAs and gas docs, or PAs and Docs in general)? Personnally I like to understand why AST>ALT is in alcoholic liver disease and ALT>AST in viral hepatitis, it helps me remember it better then just memorizing that it is that way. The same is true with CBC understanding bio chem of DNA synthesis helps me remember why you get Macrocytic anemia in B12 deficiency and micro in Fe deficieny. I guess I'm just in the minority cause i like to understand things cause it helps me remember and that my memory is just not as good as others is so I can't just do pure memorization.

Oh yeah one more thing more and more med schools are actually req bio chem before med school.

 

[Mumpu]

I understand how the labs work. I know the technical reasons for artifacts in CBC, sodium levels, etc. But I didn't learn any of this from biochemistry or cell bio. Instead, this material was explained in about 30 minutes by physicians at the beginning of the appropriate sections of pathophys. It did not take two semesters of drivel taught by PhD's who reminded us every minute that we were taking them away from their precious labs. What did I learn from biochem? Krebs cycle. Woo-freaking-hoo.

My first year could've been one semester long with a breezy schedule and I would've known just as much and done just as well on Step 1.