Thinkers vs. Cutters

[NWwildcat2013]

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Sadly, I've met more than I'd like to admit who I'd put money on having an IQ below that (thankfully not at my school). I've also met one or two that make me wonder how they dress themselves in the morning, let alone how they actually managed to get into medical school.



Maybe not proven, but there are people with memories good enough we can basically call it photographic. Like this person:




You forgot the part about them also being in the top earning specialty. I wouldn't mind 500k/year to be the "There is a fracture, I need to fix it" guy.

Have you been in a reduction of a really bad fracture with multiple pieces that have callus built up? It's a nightmare and so frustrating to get everything to where it fits and then hold it together. Couldn't pay me enough to do that. I about lost my mind during that surgery.


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[VA Hopeful Dr]

They are meatheads because they aren't really the type who study long hours to get 250+ on step 1. They are the type who spend most days working out, going on hiking trips on weekends, sitting down here and there blast through the material spending half as much time as the rest of the class and killing it with a 250+ on Steps. These students tend to also be the type that "wonders why their classmates have to study all the time". It's an interesting specimen of human.

Jesus H. Christ...

I have a cousin who is a hand surgeon so I'm not serious with this. Beyond that, a) I'm obviously being sarcastic b) everyone from my med school class (and his) who went into ortho worked fairly hard to get there. There is a reason why this thread continues with mainly med student posts - those of us in the real world don't actually care about this.

 

[Stagg737]

Have you been in a reduction of a really bad fracture with multiple pieces that have callus built up? It's a nightmare and so frustrating to get everything to where it fits and then hold it together. Couldn't pay me enough to do that. I about lost my mind during that surgery.

I've both seen it and been the patient in that situation. I've got a lot of respect for orthos and I wanted to be one for a long time, but it's tough to deny that a lot of them don't use a good amount of the non-surgical knowledge they have. I'll also point out that there is a difference between how dextrous a person is and their medical intelligence. In your example, the most brilliant person in the world could still be a miserable failure at the given surgery if they don't have the hand-eye coordination to properly place and stabilize all of the pieces.

 

[Phloston]

What are you doing now?

ここで勉強しています。Does that answer your question.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

ここで勉強しています。Does that answer your question.

Teaching Japanese I'm assuming? Haha

 

[Psai]

Please tell me more about how everyone who got a 250 on their step 1 worked their *** for it.

Can confirm I worked my ass off

 

[giantswing]

I've both seen it and been the patient in that situation. I've got a lot of respect for orthos and I wanted to be one for a long time, but it's tough to deny that a lot of them don't use a good amount of the non-surgical knowledge they have. I'll also point out that there is a difference between how dextrous a person is and their medical intelligence. In your example, the most brilliant person in the world could still be a miserable failure at the given surgery if they don't have the hand-eye coordination to properly place and stabilize all of the pieces.

It's not really hand eye coordination; there's a lot of physics at play, good old fashioned physics, w torque, tensile strength, and all that. Reduction is all about proper technique. If it's really smashed then f*** it, you get an ex fix.

 

[Crayola227]

Can we put an end to this debate once and for all?

As the stereotype goes, internal medicine, neurology, etc. are the intellectual fields. Surgeons, on the other hand, are regressive manual laborers and little thinking goes on inside their heads.

Of course, surgery is difficult, and so on. So it can't be entirely true. Where does the truth lie? Is it possible that surgery is every bit as intellectual (and then some) but they just don't show it?

Quite a few people have told me something along the lines of "anything besides internal medicine would be a waste of your brain." But then how do you explain that neurosurgery, ENT, etc, have higher board scores? And assuming Step 1 reflects intelligence...something doesn't add up.

Thoughts?

2/10 humblebrag. There's some inflation for when catching the brag makes me smile vs when it's more obnoxious.

 

[himitsuda]

Teaching Japanese I'm assuming? Haha

They're studying, not teaching.

勉強している = studying
教えている = teaching

 

[Lost In Transcription]

You seriously think there's no correlation between Step 1 score and IQ ? That's ridiculous. People who score 270+ are, on average, much more intelligent than people who score in the 220's, for example. You basically need to have gifted / possibly genius level IQ to score that high. Someone of average IQ could study USMLE material full time for years and still never crack 250.

I'm sure someone ate you alive already, but let's see dome data that confirms this assumption, especially when comparing 240-250 scores and 270.

 

[NWwildcat2013]

I'm sure someone ate you alive already, but let's see dome data that confirms this assumption, especially when comparing 240-250 scores and 270.

Agree.

I am 100% percent sure I am less intelligent than one of my friends who scored like a 245. He's brilliant and understands things far more easily and quickly than I do. The only difference is he didn't give up having a life for 2 years in preclinicals.


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[Phloston]

I'm going to be intentionally vague here for obvious reasons. And I'll also be voluntarily annoying by whipping out the H-word with an n=1. I have a relative who went to Harvard for nine years and had a 2400 on the SATs, and got 230s on the Step 1. I'm probably a standard deviation of intellect away from this person and had double-260s. The IQ argument and the Step isn't worth anyone's time.

 

[Milotic]

Seriously what is everyone's deal with just admitting that everyone is so different in terms of intelligence that no one is guaranteed a 250 with studying efficiently enough? It perpetuates the <250 = "just didn't want it badly enough" mentality.

 

[managedcarefin]

People are different the end.

 

[Stagg737]

It's not really hand eye coordination; there's a lot of physics at play, good old fashioned physics, w torque, tensile strength, and all that. Reduction is all about proper technique. If it's really smashed then f*** it, you get an ex fix.

Right, but that physical aspect is still involved. Not everyone can translate mental intelligence into the physical world. Not saying it's necessary to be talented or gifted, but there is more than just the mental component.

 

[andelJ94]

Education and intelligence covary better than intelligence and just about anything else.

Particularly if you're talking about a degree for which people have been sequentially selected based on multiple levels of standardized testing and years of academic achievement, yeah I think education and intelligence are going to be pretty linked.

I'm a 4th year medical student, so I've interacted with plenty of med students and a lot of "average" people. I honestly can't think of a med student I've met who I think probably has an IQ below 110.

Even better than SES, I doubt it? As to your anecdotal evidence, I have met plenty of doctors and med students with little to no social intelligence or what you might call "common sense." I agree there is a minimum level of intelligence required to become a physician, but I don't think it's that much above average (you even quoted 110, above avg. starts ~ 115).

 

[sloop]

Even better than SES, I doubt it? As to your anecdotal evidence, I have met plenty of doctors and med students with little to no social intelligence or what you might call "common sense." I agree there is a minimum level of intelligence required to become a physician, but I don't think it's that much above average (you even quoted 110, above avg. starts ~ 115).

Trying to parse out whether education or socioeconomic status correlate better with intelligence is kind of silly because the two are obviously linked. Education is likely the main proximate factor by which IQ mediated socioeconomic status. I'm sure there may be other mechanisms, but this is a huge one. People with low IQs frequently do not graduate high school while it is not uncommon for people with high IQs to obtain graduate-level degrees.

As I said previously, "social intelligence" is not intelligence. For one, I think that this whole idea that more intelligent people are socially inept is a myth propagated to defend less intelligent people's egos by advancing the notion that smart people often have autistic tendencies. I think that the majority of med students are better adjusted than the average person, not the other way around. Of course some people have ****ty social skills, but this is the case for all strata of intelligence. Secondly, nobody thinks of intelligence in terms of being socially adept. This is its own adaptive personality trait but it is just that—a personality trait, not part of a person's underlying intellectual capability.

 

[andelJ94]

Trying to parse out whether education or socioeconomic status correlate better with intelligence is kind of silly because the two are obviously linked. Education is likely the main proximate factor by which IQ mediated socioeconomic status. I'm sure there may be other mechanisms, but this is a huge one. People with low IQs frequently do not graduate high school while it is not uncommon for people with high IQs to obtain graduate-level degrees.

As I said previously, "social intelligence" is not intelligence. For one, I think that this whole idea that more intelligent people are socially inept is a myth propagated to defend less intelligent people's egos by advancing the notion that smart people often have autistic tendencies. I think that the majority of med students are better adjusted than the average person, not the other way around. Of course some people have ****ty social skills, but this is the case for all strata of intelligence. Secondly, nobody thinks of intelligence in terms of being socially adept. This is its own adaptive personality trait but it is just that—a personality trait, not part of a person's underlying intellectual capability.

I think the experts in the field of psychology and reality would beg to differ. You are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. I agree there is a myth that more "intelligence" == more socially inept but I never made that statement, only you did. I have met plenty of people in many fields with little to no social skills while being in what you might call "smart" fields like chemistry, engineering, academia and law. I think it is likely due to the fact that people tend to venerate highly educated people and certain professions to such an extent due to their own lack of knowledge, they may be more surprised when the "smart" persons makes a mistake of a faux pas.

I would doubt as a population, med students are any more socially adjusted than any other professional group, perhaps less. I would argue Law students or perhaps business students would have to display much more interpersonal skill than your average med student, but that's just my theory.

Don't be so insecure, you are in medical school, which means you worked hard, and are smart. I hope to be there soon myself, but I don't think it makes me inherently smarter than everyone else. Have fun in school!🙂

 

[Psai]

I think the experts in the field of psychology and reality would beg to differ. You are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. I agree there is a myth that more "intelligence" == more socially inept but I never made that statement, only you did. I have met plenty of people in many fields with little to no social skills while being in what you might call "smart" fields like chemistry, engineering, academia and law. I think it is likely due to the fact that people tend to venerate highly educated people and certain professions to such an extent due to their own lack of knowledge, they may be more surprised when the "smart" persons makes a mistake of a faux pas.

I would doubt as a population, med students are any more socially adjusted than any other professional group, perhaps less. I would argue Law students or perhaps business students would have to display much more interpersonal skill than your average med student, but that's just my theory.

Don't be so insecure, you are in medical school, which means you worked hard, and are smart. I hope to be there soon myself, but I don't think it makes me inherently smarter than everyone else. Have fun in school!🙂

Don't think you've met many law students or business students

 

[Psai]

this is dumb; both groups think and cut. hell a family practitioner cut me in line the other day in the cafe because he was running late.

And you asserted your dominance by looking him dead in the eye and said "There's a line, jerk"

 

[sloop]

I think the experts in the field of psychology and reality would beg to differ.

First of all, this is not a psychological question—it is a philosophical one. Whether a psychologist develops some emotional aptitude metric and decides to call it some sort of "intelligence" is immaterial. Psychologists are not experts on what the nature of intelligence is, as much as they may be experts in the measurement of characteristics which they hope approximate intelligence.

Second of all, what the **** does it even mean to be an "expert in the field of reality?"

You are entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts.

Noted. I don't see the relevance of this as I did not make up "facts," but I will take this under advisement.

I agree there is a myth that more "intelligence" == more socially inept but I never made that statement, only you did. I have met plenty of people in many fields with little to no social skills while being in what you might call "smart" fields like chemistry, engineering, academia and law. I think it is likely due to the fact that people tend to venerate highly educated people and certain professions to such an extent due to their own lack of knowledge, they may be more surprised when the "smart" persons makes a mistake of a faux pas.

I don't find much of this statement particularly objectionable.

I would doubt as a population, med students are any more socially adjusted than any other professional group, perhaps less. I would argue Law students or perhaps business students would have to display much more interpersonal skill than your average med student, but that's just my theory.

I never said med students are better adjusted than law or business students. I said they are better adjusted than the average person. I find your allegations regarding law and business requiring more social aptitude than medicine quite specious, but whatever—that's pretty much beyond the scope of the present argument.

Don't be so insecure, you are in medical school, which means you worked hard, and are smart. I hope to be there soon myself, but I don't think it makes me inherently smarter than everyone else. Have fun in school!🙂

I don't think being a med student makes one inherently smarter. I think being a med student is a very good marker for someone being a smart person.

I don't fully understand how you've managed to do this, but you've mistaken being self-assured for being insecure.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

 

[andelJ94]

Don't think you've met many law students or business students

I know many, related to several as well. This is all anecdotal in the end so let's just agree to end this waste of our time and /thread. Toodles!