Thinking ahead about funding

[lenap3]

Hi all,

I'm sure someone has posted a similar question to this somewhere, but I wanted to also ask myself and get some input because I know a lot of financial aid applications for med schools require previous years' tax returns etc.

I am a triplet and my parents do reasonably well for themselves financially. They are currently paying 2 tuitions and cost of living for all three students in college (one of my siblings has a full ride to our home state school, so tuition is covered but cost of living is still paid for by my parents) and they have paid for four years for each of us at a rigorous east coast prep school where the price tag wasn't cheap. And they've been able to do all of this with a relatively comfortable lifestyle so long as they both made sure savings were strictly allocated for retirement and our educational funds etc. It certaintly hasn't been a walk in the park like some families making millions, but my mom is a finance executive so she has been extremely cautious to make sure we can graduate without debt. My sibling who is on a full scholarship will have her graduate studies funded by my parents (a MS+Dietetics internship program) because, comparatively, they paid significantly less for her (like 55k-60k less per year). For my other sibling and myself, however, they will not fund medical school. Neither of us have any qualms with that decision, after 4 years of private secondary education and 4 years at two of the most expensive private colleges in the US, we both feel guilty every semester when the tuition bill rolls in. So, we've agreed that their plan to not cover med school makes a ton of sense.

However, while looking through many financial aid websites, I noticed that many schools require your parents' tax returns. Having gone through 3 years of filing FAFSAs in hopes that a school may agree to provide some aid and being repeatedly denied, I don't have much hope that med school fin aid will be any different if my parents are involved. I know that due to my plan to take a gap year or two before med school that I will be able to claim independent status when filing my own FAFSA and taxes etc, but I'm still concerned schools will hone in on my parents' finances and I will be denied. Any tips on how to deal with this? And yes I'm aware this is a few years down the line, but I always like to be prepared and, again, I know that a lot of the fin aid applications rely on the information of prior years' returns etc.

I also know about the turn towards tuition free med schools and plan to apply to NYU, Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine, Wash U, and Mayo, which all have free or significantly reduced tuition, but I'm also aware those are all incredibly hard to get into.

Thank you!

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[Cornfed101]

FAFSA for professional school doesn’t require your parents info. Some schools require it for need based aid. My parents make too much so I didn’t include their info and I don’t plan to. Are you concerned about being denied a scholarship or the ability to take out loans? Your parents could make $100 mil a year and you would still be able to get full COA in loans

 

[wysdoc]

@lenap3 , Although schools might ask you to fill out a FAFSA, as a grad student you will be considered independent of those parental finances and can take out your med school loans on your own, without a co-signer.

Here is a great thread where @HomeSkool, an admissions committee member & doctor, tells us all about it:

HomeSkool's Guide to Financing Your Medical Education

You got into medical school! Now how do you pay for it? You already sold a kidney and your grandma disinherited you after your last arrest. What options are left? In this guide, I’ll provide a rundown of some basic options for funding medical school. This subject is very complex and my...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[KnightDoc]

Hi all,

I'm sure someone has posted a similar question to this somewhere, but I wanted to also ask myself and get some input because I know a lot of financial aid applications for med schools require previous years' tax returns etc.

I am a triplet and my parents do reasonably well for themselves financially. They are currently paying 2 tuitions and cost of living for all three students in college (one of my siblings has a full ride to our home state school, so tuition is covered but cost of living is still paid for by my parents) and they have paid for four years for each of us at a rigorous east coast prep school where the price tag wasn't cheap. And they've been able to do all of this with a relatively comfortable lifestyle so long as they both made sure savings were strictly allocated for retirement and our educational funds etc. It certaintly hasn't been a walk in the park like some families making millions, but my mom is a finance executive so she has been extremely cautious to make sure we can graduate without debt. My sibling who is on a full scholarship will have her graduate studies funded by my parents (a MS+Dietetics internship program) because, comparatively, they paid significantly less for her (like 55k-60k less per year). For my other sibling and myself, however, they will not fund medical school. Neither of us have any qualms with that decision, after 4 years of private secondary education and 4 years at two of the most expensive private colleges in the US, we both feel guilty every semester when the tuition bill rolls in. So, we've agreed that their plan to not cover med school makes a ton of sense.

However, while looking through many financial aid websites, I noticed that many schools require your parents' tax returns. Having gone through 3 years of filing FAFSAs in hopes that a school may agree to provide some aid and being repeatedly denied, I don't have much hope that med school fin aid will be any different if my parents are involved. I know that due to my plan to take a gap year or two before med school that I will be able to claim independent status when filing my own FAFSA and taxes etc, but I'm still concerned schools will hone in on my parents' finances and I will be denied. Any tips on how to deal with this? And yes I'm aware this is a few years down the line, but I always like to be prepared and, again, I know that a lot of the fin aid applications rely on the information of prior years' returns etc.

I also know about the turn towards tuition free med schools and plan to apply to NYU, Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine, Wash U, and Mayo, which all have free or significantly reduced tuition, but I'm also aware those are all incredibly hard to get into.

Thank you!

Merit scholarships are always an option, but we'd all be eligible for financial aid if it was as easy as applying as a 23-25 year old "independent," since around 2/3 of all first year med students have taken at least one gap year. Unfortunately, this means you will not be getting need-based aid if your parents' income is high, so you're looking at loans (federal, private, maybe school funded), which will be available to you up to the cost of attendance, less any scholarships you happen to score.

You WILL be considered independent for FAFSA, but that will merely make you eligible for federal loans, since there are no federal need-based scholarships for medical school. The schools understand 25 year-olds are poor, and they all (to the best of my knowledge) look at parents' financial resources when doling out need-based grant aid, which I think is what you are really asking. Sorry!!

 

[Rachapkis]

The bottom line is that you will not get need-based aid from your medical school, you will be able to get federal/commercial loans to cover tuition, and (like everyone else) you will be eligible for merit-based aid.

 

[Rachapkis]

I would not be so quick to rule that out. Some medical schools will take into account the impact of tuition being paid for other siblings as they consider the parental income

Based on OP'S explanation, I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that if parental income were considered, which it would be for need-based from the school, that the parental income would be high enough to rule out such aid.

 

[KnightDoc]

depends; I had someone who's sister was in PT school and that helped getting her some aid as it adjusted the parent's income lower. Also, since medical schools base on the previous year's income tax, all three triplets would have been in school, thus a large adjustment lower.

For Example Weill Cornell (WCMC) says
STUDENT/PARENT CONTRIBUTION
We review a student’s income and assets as part of the need analysis. A minimum contribution of $1,000 from earnings is expected of1st year students. The parent contribution takes into consideration parental income and assets, ageof household members, number of dependents, taxes, retirement needs,and medical expenses. Verification of siblings in school is required and will be done in the fall of each school year.

Yeah, but OP stated that he has had multiple siblings in multiple private schools since high school, and he has never been eligible for any need-based aid, so, based on that, it sounds like parents' income is off the charts and the fact that he has siblings in school isn't going to help him here!

 

[82Scout]

You should always apply for all aid regardless of your situation. The precise reason why you should do this is your exact logic. Every year people don't apply because they think they won't qualify and every year some scholarships and funding goes unused because of it. You never know if they will have excess unused funding they can give to you, hell even if its only a couple hundred.

Most schools want to lower the average graduating debt of their classes so work with your financial aid department to apply for everything you can. Remember the worst they can say is no and nothing changes.

 

[deleted1011020]

I would not be so quick to rule that out. Some medical schools will take into account the impact of tuition being paid for other siblings as they consider the parental income

In general, would this be something noted through the tax information or something the financial office would need to be notified on behalf of the student?

 

[wysdoc]

In general, would this be something noted through the tax information or something the financial office would need to be notified on behalf of the student?

Once you submit your FAFSA you would mark your school as a recipient so their financial aid office can consider the information. You can just select the schools which accepted you or those which interviewed you if you’re still waiting for news.

 

[KnightDoc]

As in medical practice, here in medical school funding and aid, never assume

I didn't think I was assuming; I was just reading OP and taking it at face value.

OP is part of a set of triplets who has filed 3 FAFSAs, spent 4 years in an expensive private school (along with his siblings) and has never been eligible for a penny in need-based aid. ASSUMING his parents' income doesn't fall off a cliff, what is going to change in med school that is going to make him eligible?

The parents have been paying multiple tuitions all along, and have been able to do so without any help. What med school is going to step up and offer need-based grant aid where the UGs didn't, particularly when the parents were paying 2 tuitions for UG and they are only going to be paying one going forward?

 

[CyrilFiggis]

OP, bottom line, you will never be denies federal loans for your tuition, but may be denied institutional aid. Regardless, apply. Just remember that at the end of the day, you have to be OK with the idea of having hundreds of thousands of dollars of loans that YOU will be responsible for.

 

[KnightDoc]

the assumption here is that consider getting aid will not happen BEFORE actually asking the specific school

Yes, yes, of course. I thought (assumed ) it was understood that we all apply for aid, hoping for the best and expecting nothing (unless past experience has conditioned us to expect something different).

My whole takeaway from OP's post was that he provided a very detailed story explaining how his parents are very well off financially, have been very generous with the triplets from secondary school through UG, and that OP wants (or is expected) to finance med school on his own. He then proceeded to explain that he planned on taking a few gap years, would truly establish financial independence from his parents, and was asking for tips on how to avoid having schools look at his parents financials under such circumstances to presumably establish eligibility for need-based grant aid.

Without making any assumptions, but just relying on the post as written, l merely advised that schools would not care about his newfound financial independence, because most of us take at least one gap year and would qualify for need-based aid under such circumstances, and that's just not how it works.

Am I wrong? Am I going to get a need-based full ride when I apply because I'm going to make around $30-40K the year before I apply, will be over 22 and living apart from my parents, and my income will drop to $0 while I attend med school full-time? If so, that's great unexpected news, and my parents will be thrilled beyond belief that they are finally done supporting me!!!! Please advise which schools allocate need-based aid in this manner.

Of course he should apply for aid. Based on the facts he laid out, the only aid he's going to get are loans or merit scholarships!

 

[Cornfed101]

Yes, yes, of course. I thought (assumed ) it was understood that we all apply for aid, hoping for the best and expecting nothing (unless past experience has conditioned us to expect something different).

My whole takeaway from OP's post was that he provided a very detailed story explaining how his parents are very well off financially, have been very generous with the triplets from secondary school through UG, and that OP wants (or is expected) to finance med school on his own. He then proceeded to explain that he planned on taking a few gap years, would truly establish financial independence from his parents, and was asking for tips on how to avoid having schools look at his parents financials under such circumstances to presumably establish eligibility for need-based grant aid.

Without making any assumptions, but just relying on the post as written, l merely advised that schools would not care about his newfound financial independence, because most of us take at least one gap year and would qualify for need-based aid under such circumstances, and that's just not how it works.

Am I wrong? Am I going to get a need-based full ride when I apply because I'm going to make around $30-40K the year before I apply, will be over 22 and living apart from my parents, and my income will drop to $0 while I attend med school full-time? If so, that's great unexpected news, and my parents will be thrilled beyond belief that they are finally done supporting me!!!! Please advise which schools allocate need-based aid in this manner.

Of course he should apply for aid. Based on the facts he laid out, the only aid he's going to get are loans or merit scholarships!

it depends on the school. Rush for example does not require parental income if you are over 30 for need based aid.

Doctor of Medicine (MD) Program | RUSH Medical College | RUSH University

The Doctor of Medicine program at RUSH Medical College develops empathic physician leaders dedicated to innovation, research and health equity. Students train at two of the area’s largest and most respected hospitals: RUSH University Medical Center John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital.

www.rushu.rush.edu

 

[KnightDoc]

it depends on the school. Rush for example does not require parental income if you are over 30 for need based aid.

Doctor of Medicine (MD) Program | RUSH Medical College | RUSH University

The Doctor of Medicine program at RUSH Medical College develops empathic physician leaders dedicated to innovation, research and health equity. Students train at two of the area’s largest and most respected hospitals: RUSH University Medical Center John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital.

www.rushu.rush.edu

I was kinda kidding just to see what @gonnif comes back with. 30+ is very non-trad, and, sure, at some point your parents shouldn't be expected to support you, so if you're willing to take the equivalent of 8+ gap years it's a totally different story from OP's!! Also, 30+ career changers shouldn't be forced to have to take out $300-400K in loans or have their near retirement parents buy them a MD degree.

 

[82Scout]

I was kinda kidding just to see what @gonnif comes back with. 30+ is very non-trad, and, sure, at some point your parents shouldn't be expected to support you, so if you're willing to take the equivalent of 8+ gap years it's a totally different story from OP's!! Also, 30+ career changers shouldn't be forced to have to take out $300-400K in loans or have their near retirement parents buy them a MD degree.

They also aren’t forced to become doctors either though.

everyone should be required to release parents financial records if they want the need based aid imo, albeit those whose parents are deceased or those who can legally prove they are estranged excluded.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve never actually heard of hard rules or cutoffs regarding income when it comes to need based aid. From what I understand It is decided by a panel or equivalent on a case by case basis. So there’s no reason to believe OP is automatically excluded.

 

[KnightDoc]

They also aren’t forced to become doctors either though.

everyone should be required to release parents financial records if they want the need based aid imo, albeit those whose parents are deceased or those who can legally prove they are estranged excluded.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve never actually heard of hard rules or cutoffs regarding income when it comes to need based aid. From what I understand It is decided by a panel or equivalent on a case by case basis. So there’s no reason to believe OP is automatically excluded.

You are correct, nobody is forced to become a doctor, but there is a fairness argument to be made, in a system in which need-based aid is granted, that a 35 year old adult who has lived independently for 10+ years should not have to tap the retirement funds of wealthy parents to fund a medical school education to free up more grant aid for the 23 year old children of less well off parents, whose children also do not have to become doctors, and who are also capable of signing loan promissory notes.

You're not wrong, so I won't correct you, but nobody said OP is automatically excluded. It was just pointed out that OP has never before been eligible, and nothing has changed, so it is highly unlikely that he would suddenly become eligible, because med schools are so much more generous than UGs when it comes to need-based grant money, since MDs have a more difficult time repaying loans than UG philosophy majors.

 

[82Scout]

You are correct, nobody is forced to become a doctor, but there is a fairness argument to be made, in a system in which need-based aid is granted, that a 35 year old adult who has lived independently for 10+ years should not have to tap the retirement funds of wealthy parents to fund a medical school education to free up more grant aid for the 23 year old children of less well off parents, whose children also do not have to become doctors, and who are also capable of signing loan promissory notes.

You're not wrong, so I won't correct you, but nobody said OP is automatically excluded. It was just pointed out that OP has never before been eligible, and nothing has changed, so it is highly unlikely that he would suddenly become eligible, because med schools are so much more generous than UGs when it comes to need-based grant money, since MDs have a more difficult time repaying loans than UG philosophy majors.

I agree but in fairness both applicants parents are expected to contribute with the caveat being that one applicants parents can afford to contribute much more despite age differences, whether or not they feel obliged to shouldn't matter. It is not uncommon in american culture for parents to support their children well into the late stages of their life all the way until they are deceased in which case their assets are more than likely inherited by those same children. Hell i'm almost 30 and I know plenty of people who still either live with their parents or are financially reliable on them in some fashion.

The obvious difference is that one family has a choice and the other doesn't, that choice being whether or not they want to dip into their retirement funds to pay for a couple all inclusive trips or pay for little Timmy's medical schooling.

 

[Cornfed101]

The semantics don’t really matter a whole lot... just because it should be one way or the other doesn’t mean it is. If you want need based aid and you are old enough (like me) you can take advantage of not including your parents income to certain schools. If you would like to change that policy you can do so after you become a physician.

 

[KnightDoc]

I agree but in fairness both applicants parents are expected to contribute with the caveat being that one applicants parents can afford to contribute much more despite age differences, whether or not they feel obliged to shouldn't matter. It is not uncommon in american culture for parents to support their children well into the late stages of their life all the way until they are deceased in which case their assets are more than likely inherited by those same children. Hell i'm almost 30 and I know plenty of people who still either live with their parents or are financially reliable on them in some fashion.

The obvious difference is that one family has a choice and the other doesn't, that choice being whether or not they want to dip into their retirement funds to pay for a couple all inclusive trips or pay for little Timmy's medical schooling.

That's one obvious difference; another is that at some point, after some number of years of living and functioning as an independent adult, little Timmy isn't so little anymore, and his parents should be able to enjoy as many all inclusives as they can tolerate without having to worry about being financially responsible for little Timmy, at which point little Timmy should be as entitled to financial aid as the other family.

Where should it end? Rich grandparents? Aunts and uncles?? Hell, I know people who have rich grandparents who give lots of money to their families to allow them to live above their means. Does that mean schools should do a financial analysis of an applicant's entire family tree to see if there is any money before granting financial aid???