Third Time Applicant Help

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Your stats, and everything else, look good but I have noticed you applied to very competitive schools. Do you have the MSAR? I think you should have bought it after being rejected the first time to gauge a healthy combo between reach schools, schools you are confident in getting in to, and safety schools.

I hope this doesn't make a difference but what about the 9 in verbal? Also does your school offer mock interviews at their career center? Because even though you get interviews, you might come off shaky/not confident or you don't seem humble or compassionate in medicine. I am not trying to be rude but some people do think they deserve medicine more than anything and come off as snobbish.

I can't think of anything else. I know CA applicants need to have killer apps and you definitely have it. I noticed you applied more of "in the coasts" and would recommend even in mid-US states. You just never know. It is just a matter of preference but what about D.O. schools? If you don't want to, that's your choice. But at least have safety schools in your fourth time around if you haven't heard from temple, drexel, etc.
 
Waiting for Cat's input on this. I don't see anything wrong with your application. Perhaps you just chose very competitive schools.
 
Hmmm.. any actual lab or clinical research? Is the EMT work your only source of steady patient interaction (I don't really count the disaster relief work because, while impressive, your role seems more regulatory/administrative rather than hands-on with patients)? And are these descriptions copied word for word from your AMCAS application? Because if so, it paints a picture of very strong leadership experiences but comparatively little clinical work. You have EMT up there but barely described what you do or what you've learned from the experience.

Yea I know I'm asking nit-picky questions, but that's because I see nothing else that's really off about your application.
 
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MiniMoo said:
Hmmm.. any actual lab or clinical research? Is the EMT work your only source of steady patient interaction (I don't really count the disaster relief work because, while impressive, your role seems more regulatory/administrative rather than hands-on with patients)? And are these descriptions copied word for word from your AMCAS application? Because if so, it paints a picture of very strong leadership experiences but comparatively little clinical work. You have EMT up there but barely described what you do or what you've learned from the experience.

Yea I know I'm asking nit-picky questions, but that's because I see nothing else that's really off about your application.
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Fair questions. The red cross work is actually all hands on. I assess patients, determine if they are healthy enough to stay in the shelter, assess sick evacuees, give basic meds. Think school nurse for hurricane evacuees.

Also, ems was 22 hrs/wk for three years
 
Your leadership appears to be so outstanding you should probably be on one of the president's task forces as an advisor. Your community service is strong too.

It looks like you have clinical patient experience, but no clinical environment experience in a hospital or clinic where doctors are working. And you mention no shadowing.

Other possible red flags: PS that exudes a sense of entitlement, has poor grammar/construction/doesn't match the quality of the Secondary essays. LORs raising concerns. Applied late. Recent downward grade trend. Lots of Ws. Didn't pass a background check.

What was the research you got the prize for and how long were you involved in the research? Was it original or rehashing others' work? Was it publishable?

I'd agree that you have too many highly-selective schools for your stats. But there's some in the range that should be your niche too, so that isn't the only probelm, obviously.
 
ucladoc2b said:
Rejected: UCSF, UCLA, UCI, UCD, USC, UChicago, GWU, UMD, UWisc, U of I
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I'd call U of Ill, UWisc, GWU, as well as your home institution, make an appointment to speak with a dean by phone, and when you get the right person, ask for feedback on what you can do to make your application better. This is a good way to get a hint about a hidden problem, like bad LOR, PS problem, or a totally overlooked but essential EC (shadowing).
 
Catalystik said:
Your leadership appears to be so outstanding you should probably be on one of the president's task forces as an advisor. Your community service is strong too.

It looks like you have clinical patient experience, but no clinical environment experience in a hospital or clinic where doctors are working. And you mention no shadowing.

Other possible red flags: PS that exudes a sense of entitlement, has poor grammar/construction/doesn't match the quality of the Secondary essays. LORs raising concerns. Applied late. Recent downward grade trend. Lots of Ws. Didn't pass a background check.

What was the research you got the prize for and how long were you involved in the research? Was it original or rehashing others' work? Was it publishable?

I'd agree that you have too many highly-selective schools for your stats. But there's some in the range that should be your niche too, so that isn't the only probelm, obviously.
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Thanks for looking at my app. I don't know that I am cut out quite yet to be an advisor to Obama. Maybe one day.

To address these criticisms:

I have worked in clinics (Dr offices) off and on for about 10 years. Also, my dad is a doc.

My EMR job actually requires me to work with clinicians. Building an EMR system requires that I duplicate doctor/nurse/other clinician work in the computer. Basically, if the computer doesn't reflect what the clinicians do on a daily basis, they won't use it (this is why EMRs have a relativelty high failure rate). Therefore, I shadow doctors, nurses, other care workers pretty frequently as part of my job. I have become pretty familiar with the ins and outs of how hospitals work.

My honor's thesis was an original study (about as much as the question can scientifically assessed). I worked on it for around one year. (about 20 hrs/week). It would take a bit of work, but it could be publishable.

I do have a downward grade trend; I had a 3.72 BCPM my JR AMCAS year (my sophomore year). I got a B+ in my summer school genetics class, which was my only BCPM class my senior AMCAS year (3.3 for 3.3 hrs). I hope this is not what is killing me.

I applied first day AMCAS opened. All secondaries were completed within two weeks.

I did ask about LORs when I had a couple of deans of admissions look at my app. Never any comments about them. I saw two of the letters. Both were positive.

I had one W my entire academic career. Lowest college grade I ever recieved was a B.

My only criminal offenses were parking tickets. I was pulled over once for going 78 in a 75 zone. No ticket issued.

If anyone wants to review my PS, I could pm it to you. I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks for your feedback everyone.

Sorry forgot to address MiniMoo's comment: Yes, I did copy these out of my AMCAS, but left out some of the details present in the app.
 
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What did you write your PS about? How did you explain why you know you HAVE to be a doctor. I ask because your most impressive activities and major show someone with a lot of potential in a more health administrative, political, or managerial field. Adcoms might not be convinced that you truly desire to be a clinician, dealing with illness and patients day in and day out.
 
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To the OP: I truly hope you get in. Your stellar application would win me over if i was a dean of a medical school. I don't sense the tone of arrogance or entitlement in your posts and hope this is also reflected in both of your interviews and your essays.

I will strongly suggest to give it one more shot if you don't end up making the cut this time. Life can be unfair at times. If you decided to re-apply, I would focus more on bottom tier schools. I would add Utah, Buffalo, Hostra (this is a brand new school in NYC; first class will start next year: http://medicine.hofstra.edu/), toledo, West Virginia and some other schools. You need to diversify...

It pains me that people like you don't get in since it seems that you have everything's working for you!
 
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Thanks for your support.

I applied to schools most in line with my MCAT, GPA, and career interests. I am a CA resident, and unfortunatly, all of my schools will be competitive (each recieves about 5000 applicants).

Well, I guess the season is not over yet.
 
mediterranean said:
... It is just a matter of preference but what about D.O. schools? If you don't want to, that's your choice....
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I'm going to second this question. If this is your third cycle with no success, have you considered DO or are you completely against that idea?
 
csmittyB said:
I'm going to second this question. If this is your third cycle with no success, have you considered DO or are you completely against that idea?
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I am not against DO's at all (and will not turn this thread into a flame war). I just feel I might lose out on several oportunities by attending a DO school (for example, not as much research, no linking with a business school, et cetera).

Btw, would anyone be willing to look over my PS?
 
You can find research on your own.

For example, if your DO school is in a city and there are nearby MD schools - you can still do research there.
 
OP, I would be happy to look over your statement. PM it to me.
 
I'll also take a look at your PS. You're mcat is the same as mine, so there's probably red flags in other areas. Consider looking at my school list and perhaps get a new set of LOR.
 
I would guess you have a bad letter or PS. I agree that you should get a new set of letters and completely re-write your PS.
 
Catalystik said:
Your leadership appears to be so outstanding you should probably be on one of the president's task forces as an advisor. Your community service is strong too.

It looks like you have clinical patient experience, but no clinical environment experience in a hospital or clinic where doctors are working. And you mention no shadowing.

Other possible red flags: PS that exudes a sense of entitlement, has poor grammar/construction/doesn't match the quality of the Secondary essays. LORs raising concerns. Applied late. Recent downward grade trend. Lots of Ws. Didn't pass a background check.

What was the research you got the prize for and how long were you involved in the research? Was it original or rehashing others' work? Was it publishable?

I'd agree that you have too many highly-selective schools for your stats. But there's some in the range that should be your niche too, so that isn't the only probelm, obviously.
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just curious, if you graduate from a some what low tier medical school, will u be considered by hospitals as not as good of a physician as, lets say, some one who graduated from a much higher tier?
 
Residency and board certification are what's important when it comes to hospital privileges.
 
Cleavername said:
just curious, if you graduate from a some what low tier medical school, will u be considered by hospitals as not as good of a physician as, lets say, some one who graduated from a much higher tier?
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Your medical school has zero impact on being granted hospital privileges. As Morsetlis said, you will need to complete a residency so as to be board eligible and eventually become board certified (I think you get seven years and up to three tries, but this may be board dependent). You also need to pass all three tests in the licensing sequence. For allopathic docs that would be USMLE Step I, II, and III. The last of those tests is taken after the first year of residency but before completion of the residency. If you don't pass them, you cannot get a state license anywhere. As long as your residency is accredited (and all in the US are) and you demonstrate that you have malpractice coverage you can get hospital privileges.
 
Your stats are good but see if you can get residency in another state such as Texas
 
OP I hope u get in, u're app seems solid and well rounded. Please clarify if
1. U've ever received interviews/waitlists in the 2 app cycles, if so how many.
2. Did u use the same LORs for both cycles? How about PS, was the substantially the same?

There is a SPECIFIC reason(s) these disparate schools r reaching the same conclusion about ur app. It's not ur grades, or ECs, I like others suspect ur PS or LOR(s) since u're not even clearing prelim reviews for interviews.

I'll gladly read ur PS n comment on it, u've seen 2 of ur LORs how about the rest, can u envision anyone writing a lackluster LOR for u???

Finally what did the 2 Deans say about ur app?? Why didn't it deserve an interview??

By all means don't give up, its frustrating without question but if u ID the problem with ur app, u'll get in this time. Broaden ur schools too!!!
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that many schools do not even review LORs until after the interview and that preliminary screening and decision to give out interview invitations are based mainly on stats, ECs, and PS.
 
MiniMoo said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that many schools do not even review LORs until after the interview and that preliminary screening and decision to give out interview invitations are based mainly on stats, ECs, and PS.
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No, (almost uniformly) they consider LORs for interview decisions. However, LORs are normally not considered from secondary decisions (for the schools that screen). For interviews, all ur essays, grades, ECs and LORs are considered.
 
Catalystik said:
I thought the opposite. Why waste an interview spot on someone with red flags in their letters?
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Sure, makes sense. I've always thought LORs played a role, but have read more than once on these forums that schools don't always read LORs in much detail until after interviews are completed. Wasn't sure which to believe.
 
Wow...lot of activity on here.

I rewrote my PS every year. I did my best to weave together my experiences with my motivations and my future goals in medicine. Thanks to everyone who volunteered to read it.

I have to imagine I am doing something right. I got an interview at UCSD this year (denied me presecondary the last two years) and NYMC (denied me post secondary last year). Go figure.

Interviews Year 1: Wash U, UCI
Interviews Year 2: Wash U

I spoke to a few deans (Dr Dodson at Wash U, Dr Wofsy at UCSF). Both of them had a tough time advising me. Dr Dodson suggested that maybe pursuing a masters and getting a 3.9 would have made me more competitive at Wash U. Dr Wofsy told me that the big task is always to "stand out." I really tried to do that this year, and it worked at some places. I specifically asked both about my LORs. They assured me that there was nothing negative in any of them.

At this point, it would be hard (impossible) impossible to get new academic letters since I have been out of school nearly four years. But, based on the interviews this year, I would seriously doubt they were bad.

Thanks everyone for your help.
 
Did you apply just as broadly Year 1 and Year 2? What were your ECs and grades like at that time? Any multiple retakes on the MCAT?

I think your GPA combined with your MCAT makes it difficult for top schools to accept you. Your extracurriculars are great--no question about it--but there will be a good number of applicants with ECs of similar quality at those schools. But since you're at the 10th percentile or below in both categories, you're fighting majorly uphill.

I'm a bit puzzled for the rest of the schools. The only thing I can think of is that being a third time reapplicant has probably hurt your chances considerably this year. A lot of schools don't view that positively. Have you withdrawn from any of those schools in the past? Basically if you withdraw they won't interview you again is what I've heard.
 
The only schools I applied to three times were the UCs and USC. Some were applied to twice, and this is my first time applying to some of the schools.

Ironically, I got my interviews at the places were I was a reapplicant.
 
Do you believe you interview well? Ever do a mock interview or something and gotten responses about your interview style?

It seems strange that WashU invited you twice and rejected you twice, if I'm not reading it incorrectly. While it's certainly odd that you aren't getting many interviews, it's also weird that you'd make it to the interview stage twice at a school and get rejected twice.

And yes, I agree with somebody above who said your interests seem to lean a little more toward political/management/public health directions. Your PS would have to sufficiently balance this out by describing your passions in the patient-care areas.
 
student113 said:
Do you believe you interview well? Ever do a mock interview or something and gotten responses about your interview style?

It seems strange that WashU invited you twice and rejected you twice, if I'm not reading it incorrectly. While it's certainly odd that you aren't getting many interviews, it's also weird that you'd make it to the interview stage twice at a school and get rejected twice.

And yes, I agree with somebody above who said your interests seem to lean a little more toward political/management/public health directions. Your PS would have to sufficiently balance this out by describing your passions in the patient-care areas.
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I got a legacy invite to wash u.
 
I am thinking about applying to these schools this year. Anyone have any feedback? Note, I have submitted my AMCAS already (to one school) and have been verified.

UC Irvine
UC Davis
UCSD
UCSF
UCLA
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Tulane
U of Southern California
Stony Brook
GWU
EVMS
SUNY Upstate
Virginia Commonwealth
Drexel
Boston
Georgetown
Creighton
U of Vermont
U at Buffalo
NYMC
UTMB
NYU
Indiana U
Ohio State
U of Rochester
SUNY Downstate
UT Southwestern
Einstein
U of Iowa
UT Houston
UT San Antonio
 
I actually really looked into the Texas schools. They interview a fairly good percentage of their OOS applicants as a whole. While I am sure the schools consider "Texas ties" when offering their interviews (and some schools look at this more than others), I cannot imagine it is the only factor that they consider when granting an interview to an OOS applicant. I know that conventional wisdom on SDN encourages me not to apply to Texas; however, the monitary risk with my TMDSAS application ($150 for the four schools) was pretty low.
 
I would add penn state, Temple, commonwealth Pennsylvania, 2 schools in Wisconsin, all in virginia including that new virginia tech one, hofsra ( new school in NY), st loise, loyola, rosalind frankin and many more. If you want, PM me and I can find more schools for you. These are just schools from top of my head that low/mid tier schools that are good schools for oos to apply to. I might miss some but I have that MSAR literally memorized in my head when I was trying to find right schools for me.

I would be smart this time and apply to couple DOs.

GL
 
ownage said:
I would add penn state, Temple, commonwealth Pennsylvania, 2 schools in Wisconsin, all in virginia including that new virginia tech one, hofsra ( new school in NY), st loise, loyola, rosalind frankin and many more. If you want, PM me and I can find more schools for you. These are just schools from top of my head that low/mid tier schools that are good schools for oos to apply to. I might miss some but I have that MSAR literally memorized in my head when I was trying to find right schools for me.

I would be smart this time and apply to couple DOs.

GL
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Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the help.

My goal with that list was to assemble a list of medical schools that interview a larger proportion of their applicant pool. After seeing this process a few times, I became convinced that applying to certain schools was just a waste of time and funds. I am wondering if this strategy will yield more interviews.

I applied to SLU and MCW twice with no interview. Won't apply again.

RFU, Loyola both get too many applicants and interview too few people (8000 and 400 for both). They are both recieve an excessive number of applicants. I think that they are both a waste of time and money due to their excessively long secondaries and high fees. Same with UWisc with ~150 interviews and 3000 apps for OOS.

Kind of the same story with Temple. Penn state is a maybe.

Hoftra is a maybe. VA Tech I am actually interested in. However, I haven't been able to uncover too much info about their program (mainly because it is so new).

Commonwealth and the DO schools wouldn't fit as strongly with my career goals and background. Most of them seem to be more focused on training primary care physicians and have less associated research.

Also, because of my EMR background, I applied to several schools in my GPA and MCAT range (and residency range) with a bioinformatics/clinical informatics department. Additionally, I included several schools with a HIMMS level 6 or higher (high level of IT in clinical ops, see http://www.himss.org/content/files/EMR053007.pdf) as I felt that they might be more receptive to my application, career intentions and "fitting the mission." I also hope ithat with hospitals and medical centers increasingly implementing these systems I will get a closer look (or at least they will understand my background more).

I also redid my activities and my PS. Same letters, but I did get a revised letter from my former boss and an additional letter from my Red Cross supervisor.

Any other suggestions? I do really appreciate the help.
 
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I think your stats and activities definitely warrant you into getting in somewhere.

Another thing you might consider is the way you present your application. They spend <10 minutes on your application most of the time, so it really is about the impression you have on your app. I'm not saying you're doing it wrong or what not, but there are definitely ok ways and very good ways to spin and present things. These often come down to really small things that you would think escape most people.

For example, say you're part of a team project. You spend your space talking about what your team did, etc. There's nothing wrong with it. A much more assertive manner would discuss how you led the team on certain aspects. what YOU did, how you advanced the team, etc.

I've gone through a handful of apps for people and believe me...the same activities depending on how you write and present it, makes the world of difference (esp. since it's all based on first impressions).

I hope that helps. Just something to consider.
 
NotAsking4Much said:
I think your stats and activities definitely warrant you into getting in somewhere.

Another thing you might consider is the way you present your application. They spend <10 minutes on your application most of the time, so it really is about the impression you have on your app. I'm not saying you're doing it wrong or what not, but there are definitely ok ways and very good ways to spin and present things. These often come down to really small things that you would think escape most people.

For example, say you're part of a team project. You spend your space talking about what your team did, etc. There's nothing wrong with it. A much more assertive manner would discuss how you led the team on certain aspects. what YOU did, how you advanced the team, etc.

I've gone through a handful of apps for people and believe me...the same activities depending on how you write and present it, makes the world of difference (esp. since it's all based on first impressions).

I hope that helps. Just something to consider.
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Thanks for the insight. I agree with you completely and tried (hopefully successfully) to do the same with my activities this year.
 
If you have decided to fill out the TMDSAS form go ahead an apply to all the schools including the DO school TCOM. It won't cost you much more since you are already filling out the application and TCOM is an excellent school
 
I have heard of old LORs being a red flag for schools. You did mention that yours were up to four years old. Just throwing that out there.
 
Unfortunatly, there is not much I can do about the LORs. I have been out of school for a few years, so the academic letters (2 sci, 1 non) were from professors I had then. However, I had a very strong relationship with each of my writers and high grades in the classes I took with them. Two of them were also research sponsors of mine.

I have a LOR from my former consulting boss. Getting a letter from my current employer could be very tricky (since it says I am likely going to leave in the future). However, based on my performance evals, raises, and promotions, I would likely get a strong letter.

The Red Cross letter is new and very strong (actually wrote part of it myself).
 
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