Third year interested in Rad Onc...

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pbrocks15

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Hi all,

I've been entertaining the thought of going into Rad Onc recently and would like some input from you all.

Some reasons I'm learning more towards it are the patient population, life style, the fact that it's a research heavy field and the pay.

Reasons I'm a little worried about going into it are: I'm not the strongest applicant in the world and will likely not be going to a top 10 or 20 residency. I also want to stay in the North East due to family.

Is the doom that this thread recently portrayed real and should I change?

Not sure what to think.

Thank you everyone

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Some reasons I'm learning more towards it are the patient population, life style, the fact that it's a research heavy field and the pay.

They told me that rad onc would be a 9-5 job. I mis-heard, it's really 5 - 9. I'm just kidding. Sort of.

Reasons I'm a little worried about going into it are: I'm not the strongest applicant in the world and will likely not be going to a top 10 or 20 residency. I also want to stay in the North East due to family.

Is the doom that this thread recently portrayed real and should I change?

You'll probably find a job somewhere in the northeast. If you're flexible enough to take any job in the northeast, there you go. Picking a city or state is more challenging.
 
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Research is better in heme-onc if you want to stick with the patient population and add research in your career. Lifestyle is okay but the residents I've spoken with work 55 - 70 hours a week. Lifestyle is better as an attending but the lifestyle jobs are not in big cities. Compensation is good but not in big cities. Where in the Northeast would you be comfortable living? Augusta ME, Springfield MA, Burlington VT?
 
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You're probably going to get extreme responses on sdn - take all the advice you receive here into consideration but I would also encourage you to reach out to residents/attendings you can talk to directly in person or via email.

I work ~50 hours a week as a resident, love what I do every day, and have amazing colleagues. I went into the field because I make an impact in the lives of cancer patients, I love how evidence-driven the field is, and yes because of lifestyle/pay as well. That being said, if I was absolutely certain I wanted to be in NYC or Boston immediately after graduation, wanted my pick of job (private/academic/4 days a week if I wanted), starting salary 350k+, etc - I would have picked derm (or ortho or even radiology). The fact is there are just more of those specialists needed in each city.

But if you love rad onc because of the same reasons I do, I still think its the best field in medicine. And yes, the PGY-5s in my program this year (not a top 10 program) have interviewed for jobs in Boston and the NYC metro area. I think you can expect a job in Northeast, but as above posters said, it may not be your #1 location. If you will be absolutely devastated if you get a job in the Northeast 1-2 hours away from a big city your first year out of residency AND you have another specialty in mind that you love, its absolutely reasonable to pick that other specialty as well.
 
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You're probably going to get extreme responses on sdn - take all the advice you receive here into consideration but I would also encourage you to reach out to residents/attendings you can talk to directly in person or via email.

I work ~50 hours a week as a resident, love what I do every day, and have amazing colleagues. I went into the field because I make an impact in the lives of cancer patients, I love how evidence-driven the field is, and yes because of lifestyle/pay as well. That being said, if I was absolutely certain I wanted to be in NYC or Boston immediately after graduation, wanted my pick of job (private/academic/4 days a week if I wanted), starting salary 350k+, etc - I would have picked derm (or ortho or even radiology). The fact is there are just more of those specialists needed in each city.

But if you love rad onc because of the same reasons I do, I still think its the best field in medicine. And yes, the PGY-5s in my program this year (not a top 10 program) have interviewed for jobs in Boston and the NYC metro area. I think you can expect a job in Northeast, but as above posters said, it may not be your #1 location. If you will be absolutely devastated if you get a job in the Northeast 1-2 hours away from a big city your first year out of residency AND you have another specialty in mind that you love, its absolutely reasonable to pick that other specialty as well.

I think this is a relatively balanced outlook on it. I agree with everything, including the average of approx. 50 hours a week as a resident.
Something significantly more than 60 hours/week would be rare, IMO.

The bolded is the biggest determination of whether you want to apply to Rad Onc or not.
 
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They told me that rad onc would be a 9-5 job. I mis-heard, it's really 5 - 9. I'm just kidding. Sort of.

You'll probably find a job somewhere in the northeast. If you're flexible enough to take any job in the northeast, there you go. Picking a city or state is more challenging.

What do you mean by "Its really 5-9"?? Are the hours really that long? Are you in an academic or PP setting? The life style is a large factor as to why I am starting to lean towards rad onc.

I do think that I would PREFER to be in the tristate area and Boston, but being in the general NE is fine with me (for the most part). I also really would like to stay in academics.

Thanks for the input btw
 
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Research is better in heme-onc if you want to stick with the patient population and add research in your career. Lifestyle is okay but the residents I've spoken with work 55 - 70 hours a week. Lifestyle is better as an attending but the lifestyle jobs are not in big cities. Compensation is good but not in big cities. Where in the Northeast would you be comfortable living? Augusta ME, Springfield MA, Burlington VT?

Is research really better in heme-onc? I felt like RO was much more research oriented and also allowed you to have dedicated time in research as well. I want research to be part of my career, most likely around 20% or so (if that is possible?).

Thanks for the response.

Also, when you say compensation is not good in big cities, what is the general ball park. I don't really want to practice in a big city but my dilemma with the NE is that most good academic institutions are in cities.

Also, by the areas you mentioned in bold do you mean that overall there will be somewhere in the NE to practice but it might not be in the best of places in the NE? I don't know those areas that you mentioned specifically.
 
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You're probably going to get extreme responses on sdn - take all the advice you receive here into consideration but I would also encourage you to reach out to residents/attendings you can talk to directly in person or via email.

I work ~50 hours a week as a resident, love what I do every day, and have amazing colleagues. I went into the field because I make an impact in the lives of cancer patients, I love how evidence-driven the field is, and yes because of lifestyle/pay as well. That being said, if I was absolutely certain I wanted to be in NYC or Boston immediately after graduation, wanted my pick of job (private/academic/4 days a week if I wanted), starting salary 350k+, etc - I would have picked derm (or ortho or even radiology). The fact is there are just more of those specialists needed in each city.

But if you love rad onc because of the same reasons I do, I still think its the best field in medicine. And yes, the PGY-5s in my program this year (not a top 10 program) have interviewed for jobs in Boston and the NYC metro area. I think you can expect a job in Northeast, but as above posters said, it may not be your #1 location. If you will be absolutely devastated if you get a job in the Northeast 1-2 hours away from a big city your first year out of residency AND you have another specialty in mind that you love, its absolutely reasonable to pick that other specialty as well.

Thanks for the response.

I have been around on the site long enough to see that you're very right and there have been SO many extremes on this site. Appreciate that notion again though.

That sounds like a great residency in my opinion. I have a few close friends in surgery and surgical subspecialties that are getting absolutely crushed working easily over 80 hours.

I personally don't need to be in a big city post residency and perhaps not even in the long run do I need to be in those areas. HOWEVER, I am stuck with the dilemma I mentioned just a few posts ago that I think that I would like to stay in academia, do research, help educate residents etc but those academic centers are really only in big cities. NJ has only one residency... Again, one to two hours away from a large city would be great for me, I wouldn't mind that at all.
 
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What do you mean by "Its really 5-9"?? Are the hours really that long? Are you in an academic or PP setting? The life style is a large factor as to why I am starting to lean towards rad onc.

I do think that I would PREFER to be in the tristate area and Boston, but being in the general NE is fine with me (for the most part). I also really would like to stay in academics.

He's kidding. No rad onc dept starts at 5am. 7am start more likely, might have to work occasionally until 8 or 9pm.

Wanting to stay in academics in the NE is certainly very risky and not at ALL guaranteed if that's what you're set on. You might be able to get a satellite of a well known institution.
 
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I think this is a relatively balanced outlook on it. I agree with everything, including the average of approx. 50 hours a week as a resident.
Something significantly more than 60 hours/week would be rare, IMO.

The bolded is the biggest determination of whether you want to apply to Rad Onc or not.

He's kidding. No rad onc dept starts at 5am. 7am start more likely, might have to work occasionally until 8 or 9pm.

Wanting to stay in academics in the NE is certainly very risky and not at ALL guaranteed if that's what you're set on. You might be able to get a satellite of a well known institution.

Thanks for the input.

Is it possible to go into PP in the NE while still doing research? Or is that sort of unheard of?

What is the reason for so many ROs wanting to go into academics? I can think of a few off the top of my head (such as that its a PhD heavy field, a lot of ROs are interested in research compared to other specalities) but am i missing something?
 
Hi all,

I've been entertaining the thought of going into Rad Onc recently and would like some input from you all.

Some reasons I'm learning more towards it are the patient population, life style, the fact that it's a research heavy field and the pay.

Reasons I'm a little worried about going into it are: I'm not the strongest applicant in the world and will likely not be going to a top 10 or 20 residency. I also want to stay in the North East due to family.

Is the doom that this thread recently portrayed real and should I change?

Not sure what to think.

Thank you everyone

If the pay and life style were not what you were expecting (worse), would you change your mind about the field? If the answer is yes, consider another field.
 
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If the pay and life style were not what you were expecting (worse), would you change your mind about the field? If the answer is yes, consider another field.

I would answer yes to this in almost every aspect of medicine. I am/was gearing mostly towards ortho, and I have research in the field, connections with my home program and have been gunning for it day one almost.

I recently found I really think I like oncology more. I found rad onc. I found it interesting. Still waiting to do an elective in it shortly.

If you told me that instead of making north of 400k and that i would have to work 90 hours as an attending I dont think I would do ortho anymore.

Now I dont mind working longer hours (70s) in RadOnc for a lower pay in an area with my family in the NE.

Does my response make sense? not sure if I really sent the right message across
 
I would answer yes to this in almost every aspect of medicine. I am/was gearing mostly towards ortho, and I have research in the field, connections with my home program and have been gunning for it day one almost.

I recently found I really think I like oncology more. I found rad onc. I found it interesting. Still waiting to do an elective in it shortly.

If you told me that instead of making north of 400k and that i would have to work 90 hours as an attending I dont think I would do ortho anymore.

Now I dont mind working longer hours (70s) in RadOnc for a lower pay in an area with my family in the NE.

Does my response make sense? not sure if I really sent the right message across

sounds reasonable to me. If you were really gunning ortho, I would be surprised if you really like rad onc. Your rotation will let you know.
 
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Thanks for the input.

Is it possible to go into PP in the NE while still doing research? Or is that sort of unheard of?

What is the reason for so many ROs wanting to go into academics? I can think of a few off the top of my head (such as that its a PhD heavy field, a lot of ROs are interested in research compared to other specalities) but am i missing something?

Because a lot of them are PHDs, or people that get into Rad Onc only by doing oodles of research and thus feel like they want to do research and be the best superstar who leads the whole field. A lot of medical students (yourself included) feel that way about rad onc, before realizing that most rad oncs are not in academic situations.

You can do PP and be involved in research with collaboration with your local academic institution, but you likely won't be designing the trials or being first author on the paper, b/c of the politics and networking required to become 'lead PI of whatever RTOG/NRG study'.

The shortage of academic jobs is more because there are much fewer true academic jobs than there are anything else. Supply and Demand.
 
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sounds reasonable to me. If you were really gunning ortho, I would be surprised if you really like rad onc. Your rotation will let you know.

I'm too eager to really find out and am going to drop by the department the next few days. My rotation is for a week at the end of the month and I dont think I could wait that long with how eager I am to know what I want to do with my life. I will obviously know better after that rotation but I think going in this week and next week a few times after my rotation might help also give me an idea.

I shadowed a little in my first year, I had it as a thought but wasnt sure if I really would do it. It felt SO beyound me and I couldnt even understand in the slightest what he was talking about. This was my first semester first year. I remember things like CyberKnife, whole brain radiation etc but I dont think I gave it a fair assessment at that time.
 
Lifestyle: It's not 9-5, it's not as good as derm, there can be pretty huge variation between different residency programs and different employment situations. On average though lifestyle is definitely on the nicer side of specialties and a plus of the field.

Research: Rad onc is a bad field to go into if you care about research or being in academics. Academic jobs are scarce. Meaningful research is scarce. Agreed with others that if this is what's really important for you, then consider med onc or other fields.

Location: It's a big issue. Depending on where your family is, you likely won't be able to guarantee that you'll be near them. But if you just want to be anywhere in the northeast, you should be fine. Keep in mind though that you might feel differently about this in the future if you have a partner who needs a specific type of job, kids you want to send to a good school, etc.
 
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Lifestyle: It's not 9-5, it's not as good as derm, there can be pretty huge variation between different residency programs and different employment situations. On average though lifestyle is definitely on the nicer side of specialties and a plus of the field.

Research: Rad onc is a bad field to go into if you care about research or being in academics. Academic jobs are scarce. Meaningful research is scarce. Agreed with others that if this is what's really important for you, then consider med onc or other fields.

Location: It's a big issue. Depending on where your family is, you likely won't be able to guarantee that you'll be near them. But if you just want to be anywhere in the northeast, you should be fine. Keep in mind though that you might feel differently about this in the future if you have a partner who needs a specific type of job, kids you want to send to a good school, etc.


So those who really go into the field must really love it, be willing to give up family, friends, pay etc...??

Hmm...
 
So those who really go into the field must really love it, be willing to give up family, friends, pay etc...??

Hmm...
Job satisfaction/quality, pay and location. Used to be you would take a hit on one to get the other two. Now it's more getting one at the expense of the other two, esp when a desirable location takes priority
 
So those who really go into the field must really love it, be willing to give up family, friends, pay etc...??

Hmm...
I would say for current applicants yes, someone applying to this field should do it if they can't see themselves doing something else.
 
He's kidding. No rad onc dept starts at 5am. 7am start more likely, might have to work occasionally until 8 or 9pm.

Yes I was kidding. I work 7-7 most days. I usually put in some weekend hours as well.


hat is the reason for so many ROs wanting to go into academics? I can think of a few off the top of my head (such as that its a PhD heavy field, a lot of ROs are interested in research compared to other specalities) but am i missing something?

Most academic jobs nowadays just expect PP or near PP workloads. People take the jobs because they're often the only things available in many markets. Also, plenty of PP jobs suck too... I've seen PP jobs paying less than their academic counterparts nearby with no opportunity for technical partnership
 
Like many have already said, the field is awesome. In comparison to many other fields the level of intellectual stimulation, pay, work life balance, and not to forget time with the patients cannot be beat. I do agree with other here that the compensation and the allure of PP of the field is going down, but much like you, I never experienced those things so it doesn't bother me too much. I have been told I could make $100-200k more, but honestly I am very comfortable with what I am making. Money should not be a major determining factor after $250k. Someone once told me that any doctor making over $400k is working HARD to make that kind of cash. I am very pleased with my non-Coast work situation.

On the flip side, it is true that it is very difficult to live in major cities or on the coast. If your family needs to be in LA, NYC, or DC it is not going to be good for you. Here is the catch, for many other fields it is the same thing. So unless you are thinking IM, OBGYN, or other PCP then it will be tough to get a good job in a major city anywhere (ENT, Urology, etc...). If your child needs to be by a pediatric specialist (my friends in a super specialized field in this situation) they had to move from their midwest home to another place. The other thing I don't like about this field is that we are really on the way bottom of the totem pole, but I just accept that for the lifestyle perks. If you can't do inpatient, night float, or need to work on the weekends, don't be surprised when your referring partners who have to rotate weekend rounds, inpatient shifts, or stand in the OR for 8 hours don't feel sorry for you as you are making just as much $$$ or more then them,while you are sitting at home enjoying life with your family.

Finally, RESEARCH SUCKS FOR RAD ONC. Listen to me carefully, you are in the ivory tower daze. You will likely NOT DO ANY MEANINGFUL RESEARCH AT ALL. You can do retrospective reviews (I do) and participate in clinical trials, but really rad oncs are good at knowing the clinical data and doing retrospective reviews, but there is a reason we get something like <5% of all NCI funding. For the rad oncs who actually do great research, they suck up all the funding (and they should b/c they are the ones who are proving they can move this field and give me job security - let's go OligoGOMEZ), and for you to try to break in this little teeny weeny field of real rad onc researchers overpopulated and saturated by MD PhDs - don't do it. Med Onc has WAY more REAL research opportunities and funding (think pharma for better or worse).

Don't confuse the JV competition between radiation oncology residents vs med onc fellows. I say we win that battle much more often then not in terms of average med student scores, publications, and trial knowledge, but the real researchers who play in the NCI, NIH, SWOG, / big boy leagues are dominated by med onc. I have absolutely ZERO intention of writing a grant or working in academia and probability wise you will not either, so the fact I am "not doing research" does not bother me at all.
 
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