Third year with good stats- how important is research for competitive specialties? (Optho, Uro, Derm, IR, ENT, others)

[statlin98]

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STEP1- 253
COMLEX- 655

I have some interest in pursuing IM+GI but I’d prefer to not be in training for six years. The “competitive” specialties all sound appealing to me, however my CV is totally deficient in research sans some wet bench work in undergrad with no publications.

Am I competitive for any of these specialties if I don’t have any research come application time? Do any of these specialties value research less than others?

 

[drplzz]

they'd be important even if you were an MD student. hop on it!

 

[Lawpy]

Research is necessary for derm and other surgical sub specialties.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Research is important to all of them.

 

[deleted898021]

STEP1- 253
COMLEX- 655

I have some interest in pursuing IM+GI but I’d prefer to not be in training for six years. The “competitive” specialties all sound appealing to me, however my CV is totally deficient in research sans some wet bench work in undergrad with no publications.

Am I competitive for any of these specialties if I don’t have any research come application time? Do any of these specialties value research less than others?

Get some research or take a research year, you will substantially increase your chances in those specialties, even for a solid IM program you will need research.

 

[Ho0v-man]

These are all stupid competitive as an MD. Even with a perfect app, they’re very very difficult for a DO. You can’t cut any corners going for this stuff just because you scored well on step 1.

TLDR; no. You’re not competitive for any of those specialties without research.

 

[AlteredScale]

STEP1- 253
COMLEX- 655

I have some interest in pursuing IM+GI but I’d prefer to not be in training for six years. The “competitive” specialties all sound appealing to me, however my CV is totally deficient in research sans some wet bench work in undergrad with no publications.

Am I competitive for any of these specialties if I don’t have any research come application time? Do any of these specialties value research less than others?

I’m not sure if you are aware but IM to GI is 6 years of training. And it Is one of the few that you truly need some very good scholarly output. As mentioned above reseaech is important in all the IM fellowships but def more so GI and cards given their competitive nature. Pulm crit you need some but not an insane amount from what I’ve seen.

Get as much research done as you can in medical school.

Are there exceptions in which you can’t get in without a lot of research? Sure, but the rest of your app needs to be close to gold.

Subspecialty specific research does not matter as much in the way of getting into IM residency. Get into the best academic program you can (with your step scores I’m sure you won’t have any issues with this). This makes things so much easier in the way of resources, in house fellowships, etc.

 

[Meowster007]

Random Q so pardon my ignorance- For IM+GI, would taking COMLEX only suffice or would it be best to take both USMLE and COMLEX? (Same Q but for derm? I know many MD derm programs don't exactly take DO's so there a bit more of gunning at AOA programs so thats why I ask)

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Random Q so pardon my ignorance- For IM+GI, would taking COMLEX only suffice or would it be best to take both USMLE and COMLEX? (Same Q but for derm? I know many MD derm programs don't exactly take DO's so there a bit more of gunning at AOA programs so thats why I ask)

Take USMLE. You should only take COMLEX only if you are failing USMLE practice tests.

 

[Meowster007]

Take USMLE. You should only take COMLEX only if you are failing USMLE practice tests.

Thank you for sharing the wisdom!

 

[Deecee2DO]

Get some research or take a research year, you will substantially increase your chances in those specialties, even for a solid IM program you will need research.

Top 25 academic IM yes. Solid Midtier Academic IM programs not really if the rest of app is competitive (high scores, honors M3 grades, strong letters etc) if youre a DO student

 

[Meowster007]

This might be a silly Q but as for research- If OP or anyone was going for GI, is it a MUST to get research within the field of GI in med school or can it be just general IM related or something else?

 

[AlteredScale]

This might be a silly Q but as for research- If OP or anyone was going for GI, is it a MUST to get research within the field of GI in med school or can it be just general IM related or something else?

Do whatever research in Med school. But getting started in GI reseaech gets you ahead the earlier you do it

 

[Meowster007]

Do whatever research in Med school. But getting started in GI reseaech gets you ahead the earlier you do it

Thank you for the info! Would GI research help get into an IM program or would separate research be needed?

 

[Deecee2DO]

How important is it to have Step 2 CS scored for when ERAS is submitted? Do academic programs care? Or is it more of just a requirement to graduate since its P/F

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How important is it to have Step 2 CS scored for when ERAS is submitted? Do academic programs care? Or is it more of just a requirement to graduate since its P/F

In a normal year it’s important, and a requirement to be ranked. This year and next year? Not important.

The NBOME is delusional if they think they are giving PE to both class of 2021 and 2022 this year

 

[Neopolymath]

How important is it to have Step 2 CS scored for when ERAS is submitted? Do academic programs care? Or is it more of just a requirement to graduate since its P/F

So just for clarity, you would take comlex level 2 PE not usmle step 2 CS.

For Class of 22: no one can answer your question because no one knows what kind of **** ups NBOME has in store for 21 much less 22.

For future applicants after 22: Ideally, as a DO, you want step 2, level 2, and PE done before ERAS is submitted. It shows you are ready to go. Worst case you need PE in before rank lists for sure! Do not listen to specific MD advice on not needing step 2 for ERAS. That's not for DO students and will affect you negatively if you fall for that.

 

[Espressso]

Thank you for the info! Would GI research help get into an IM program or would separate research be needed?

No any research during med school will suffice, as the poster you quoted said. Once in IM residency, GI focused research leading to your GI fellowship app is a must.

 

[Espressso]

Is research only necessary if OP wants a mid+ tier IM residency or to live on the coasts. There's a low-tier IM program near me (nice midwest town) that's 50/50 DO and FMG/IMG (zero USMD) and ~80% of their GI and Cardio fellows are FMG/IMG (mostly FMG) with very little research (3-4 pubs).

Seeing how even many USMDs go unmatched for GI/Cardio, is this because they never apply to low-tier programs like this? I can't imagine this program ranking FMGs and IMGs over USMDs unless there's no interest.

That program is likely taking a few in house fellowship candidates and is notoriously FMG/IMG so most their apps are FMG/IMG, if I have to guess.

Research is necessary for top IM and really any university/academic IM program. That's a general rule of thumb. If you're set on fellowship you can target community IM programs that have in house fellowships or have a great track record of sending IM grads to fellowships. But it'll be an uphill battle getting a university/academic fellowship coming from a lowly community IM program. Either way, once in your IM program, regardless of where or which program, you'd be smart to try and knock out a lot of research during year 1 and 2, and getting a competitive app set up for fellowships. Assuming you're going for cards or GI or even heme/onc.

As for your last point, my guess is that most USMDs aren't applying to a lot of these IMG heavy fellowships. There's a saying that some are "IMG sweat shops", particularly in NYC and in the surrounding East coast region. These programs historically train IMGs which results in the majority of apps being IMG and that cycle continues.

 

[Deecee2DO]

That program is likely taking a few in house fellowship candidates and is notoriously FMG/IMG so most their apps are FMG/IMG, if I have to guess.

Research is necessary for top IM and really any university/academic IM program. That's a general rule of thumb. If you're set on fellowship you can target community IM programs that have in house fellowships or have a great track record of sending IM grads to fellowships. But it'll be an uphill battle getting a university/academic fellowship coming from a lowly community IM program. Either way, once in your IM program, regardless of where or which program, you'd be smart to try and knock out a lot of research during year 1 and 2, and getting a competitive app set up for fellowships. Assuming you're going for cards or GI or even heme/onc.

As for your last point, my guess is that most USMDs aren't applying to a lot of these IMG heavy fellowships. There's a saying that some are "IMG sweat shops", particularly in NYC and in the surrounding East coast region. These programs historically train IMGs which results in the majority of apps being IMG and that cycle continues.

Research is not required for “any academic IM program”. Not true at all. I have mentors(current residents) at many mid tier academic IM programs and only some had research. Low tier academic IM this is even less true. Rest of their app was strong. Top tier IM yes research is required

 

[Meowster007]

No any research during med school will suffice, as the poster you quoted said. Once in IM residency, GI focused research leading to your GI fellowship app is a must.

Thank you!!

 

[DokterMom]

Did I misread the question or have we gone off topic?... My read of the title/question is that the OP was most interested in Derm, Optho, Ent, Uro, and IR and that IM to GI was the fallback position in case the others are out of reach, and was research necessary for the preferred specialties.

If that's the case, despite the very strong STEP scores, the DO degree is the primary obstacle to matching into Derm, Optho, ENT, Uro, and IR. A boatload of productive research resulting in publications, in addition to networking and strong recommendations may be enough to flip the switch and gain entry to one of those highly-coveted fields, but it's a high-risk play with a potentially catastrophic consequence if it doesn't go well. If you don't have or can't establish solid networking connections, getting a foot in the door as a DO is a long shot. A few DOs manage it every year, but only a few.

Of the options you mention, only IM+GI is a 'safe' bet with a decent fallback, and research can get you into a substantially better residency program.

 

[Espressso]

Research is not required for “any academic IM program”. Not true at all. I have mentors(current residents) at many mid tier academic IM programs and only some had research. Low tier academic IM this is even less true. Rest of their app was strong. Top tier IM yes research is required

I don't disagree with you. It's likely not necessary but I guess the point I failed to make is that for academic programs it sure freakin' helps

Totally hypothetical Q. Would it be better for a DO to rank this program highly with hopes to match into their GI or Cardio fellowship later, or to match a "better" IM program and then shoot for fellowship at this community program.
- Like would this program ever rank an outsider applicant over their own in-house fellows if the outsider shows a lot of interest

I think your goal should be to get to the best IM program you can while also having it be a great fit for you. Knowing you can get great training, be happy, and make a competitive fellowship app. I don't think in house fellowships should be the only benchmark, but that's just my opinion and that opinion varies between people.
As for your last point/question. I'm pretty sure they will always still rank outside applicants. They need a full rank list. But often times they give brownie points to those from their in house IM program.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I don't disagree with you. It's likely not necessary but I guess the point I failed to make is that for academic programs it sure freakin' helps



I think your goal should be to get to the best IM program you can while also having it be a great fit for you. Knowing you can get great training, be happy, and make a competitive fellowship app. I don't think in house fellowships should be the only benchmark, but that's just my opinion and that opinion varies between people.
As for your last point/question. I'm pretty sure they will always still rank outside applicants. They need a full rank list. But often times they give brownie points to those from their in house IM program.

It 1000% helps i totally agree with you. I think my point was for low and mid tiers high Step scores/honors clerkship grades and faculty letters can help overcome lack of research when it comes to interviews and ranking. But for the top tiers (top 25-ish) there is no question research is required

 

[Solodyn]

Luck > connection > board scores > grades > research > passion

 

[Achnologiast]

Are there stats on what percentage of DOs who apply to derm don't match? And for diagnostic radiology?

 

[Espressso]

Are there stats on what percentage of DOs who apply to derm don't match? And for diagnostic radiology?

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2020_DO-Senior_final.pdf

Starting on page 44 for derm

 

[AlteredScale]

Random Q so pardon my ignorance- For IM+GI, would taking COMLEX only suffice or would it be best to take both USMLE and COMLEX? (Same Q but for derm? I know many MD derm programs don't exactly take DO's so there a bit more of gunning at AOA programs so thats why I ask)

You need USMLE to get into GI tbh as a DO. It makes the pathway tremendously more difficult without it

 

[deleted898021]

You need USMLE to get into GI tbh as a DO. It makes the pathway tremendously more difficult without it

Do fellowships really care that much about your step 1 score from when you were in second year of medical school over 6 years ago?(WOW lol if they do). If you can land a decent low tier university IM program, with many in house fellowships and research opportunities with just comlex, I don’t see why usmle step 1 is such a big factor, sure you will be limited to low tier university IM but there are plenty of such programs(places like UMMC, Unviersity of Missouri, University of Nebraska, VT-carillon, Louisville, come to mind). Many alumni at my school matched at such places with just a comlex score and are now in fellowships like GI, cards, heme onc, endocrinology etc, I know GI is the most competitive but I thought the type of program and research opportunities and letters in the field mattered more than your step score, if you want mid tier IM and above sure you need to do well on step 1 but low tier university IM not soo much, matching from a low tier university IM limits you from say MGH cards or GI but not for most other GI/cards/whatever specialty programs ... unless I am missing something and GI is the one fellowship where your step 1 score from like 6 years ago is actually is the most important aspect for getting ranked at a program? I haven’t heard of that being the case for any fellowship..

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do fellowships really care that much about your step 1 score from when you were in second year of medical school over 6 years ago?(WOW lol if they do). If you can land a decent low tier university IM program, with many in house fellowships and research opportunities with just comlex, I don’t see why usmle step 1 is such a big factor, sure you will be limited to low tier university IM but there are plenty of such programs(places like UMMC, Unviersity of Missouri, University of Nebraska, VT-carillon, Louisville, come to mind). Many alumni at my school matched at such places with just a comlex score and are now in fellowships like GI, cards, heme onc, endocrinology etc, I know GI is the most competitive but I thought the type of program and research opportunities and letters in the field mattered more than your step score, if you want mid tier IM and above sure you need to do well on step 1 but low tier university IM not soo much, matching from a low tier university IM limits you from say MGH cards or GI but not for most other GI/cards/whatever specialty programs ... unless I am missing something and GI is the one fellowship where your step 1 score from like 6 years ago is actually is the most important aspect for getting ranked at a program? I haven’t heard of that being the case for any fellowship..

It's not the score, it's having passed it.

It is considered the gold standard for a reason.

 

[deleted898021]

It's not the score, it's having passed it.

It is considered the gold standard for a reason.

Ohh yea I get that but I was specifically saying if your actual score matters like if you were below average, would it really impact your chances of matching fellowships?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Ohh yea I get that but I was specifically saying if your actual score matters like if you were below average, would it really impact your chances of matching fellowships?

Some fellowships care, and some don't. It's just going to depend.