This feels so slimy

[kelminak]

https://www.drnuzum.com/dr-nuzum/

I found this naturopathic quackazoid exists in my state and claims to have a DO degree. In his "credentials", he studied at National University of Medical Sciences, which is a school that offers a DO degree online? Why is this possible? What can he actually do with this "degree"? It feels like it shouldn't even be legal to claim he's a DO. What do you all think?

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[femmegoblue]

This is a Spanish "DO" degree, so I assume anyone coming here would have to repeat medical school anyway.

 

[kelminak]

This is a Spanish "DO" degree, so I assume anyone coming here would have to repeat medical school anyway.

Can they even do anything with this kind of degree in the US? I found him on Facebook on a post about the new ICOM acting like he's a real DO. God I hate naturopathic **** SO MUCH.

 

[CastleG8]

Can they even do anything with this kind of degree in the US? I found him on Facebook on a post about the new ICOM acting like he's a real DO. God I hate naturopathic **** SO MUCH.

It looks like he makes his money selling his supplements online. Snake oil salesman? I have seen youtube videos of a guy named Dr. Glidden that has a book called "Fire your MD"
There is a small force of ND that seem to lobbying across the nation and at the same time demonizing MD and saying physicians are being controlled by "big pharma",

 

[hurtem&healem]

First, my understanding is that the US is the only place that DO = physician. In most of the world, osteopaths operate essentially within the same scope as chiropractors.

Second, even if it this "doctor" were truly a physician in his country, he could not legally practice medicine in the United States without going through several years worth of hoops, including, iirc, going through a full residency.

As for the ND part... who knows. It's totally dependent upon the state. He could, potentially, be a PCP and use OMT on his patients. Legally, again, his scope would be relatively limited. What he does in practice, of course, is anybody's guess.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

First, my understanding is that the US is the only place that DO = physician. In most of the world, osteopaths operate essentially within the same scope as chiropractors.

Second, even if it this "doctor" were truly a physician in his country, he could not legally practice medicine in the United States without going through several years worth of hoops, including, iirc, going through a full residency.

As for the ND part... who knows. It's totally dependent upon the state. He could, potentially, be a PCP and use OMT on his patients. Legally, again, his scope would be relatively limited. What he does in practice, of course, is anybody's guess.

Not necessarily true. US trained DOs are fully recognized physicians in most first world countries aside from Japan and France if I remember correctly.

As for the ND bs, they should really be banned in the US. It's quackery that feeds off of the whole "California anti-vaxxer organic vegan hippie crap". Like being largely benign like chiropractors is one thing, but these people literally lead the stupid and misinformed astray and put their health at risk by feeding off of the big pharma fears and Naturopathy BS that is favored by the millennial crowd.


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[kelminak]

First, my understanding is that the US is the only place that DO = physician. In most of the world, osteopaths operate essentially within the same scope as chiropractors.

Second, even if it this "doctor" were truly a physician in his country, he could not legally practice medicine in the United States without going through several years worth of hoops, including, iirc, going through a full residency.

As for the ND part... who knows. It's totally dependent upon the state. He could, potentially, be a PCP and use OMT on his patients. Legally, again, his scope would be relatively limited. What he does in practice, of course, is anybody's guess.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx

 

[lnguyen1412]

US is the only country that trained DO to become a physician atm.

 

[kelminak]

US is the only country that trained DO to become a physician atm.

So can I go to some osteopathic "school" in Spain and claim to be a DO in the US? Isn't there something wrong about that?

 

[ATPsynthase123]

US is the only country that trained DO to become a physician atm.

Thanks to good ole A.T. Still. However, a US trained DO can practice in almost every first world countries except Sweden?, France and Japan.


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[lnguyen1412]

Thanks to good ole A.T. Still. However, a US trained DO can practice in almost every first world countries except Sweden?, France and Japan.


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Yeah. As long as you can obtain license from that country. DO is treated like physician at those country list in AOA list.

 

[lnguyen1412]

So can I go to some osteopathic "school" in Spain and claim to be a DO in the US? Isn't there something wrong about that?

You won't be recognized to practice in US. Same thing as FMGs that have MD. They need to go through residency . But in case of DO, I think you need to start over since DO is only trained in the US.

 

[hurtem&healem]

US trained DOs are fully recognized physicians in most first world countries

The person in question is not US trained. Hence, he is not a physician. The United States is the only country in which DOs are trained as physicians. The actual degree isn't even the same. Internationally, DO is Doctor of Osteopathy. In the US, DO is Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.


I hope that clears up any semantic uncertainty.

 

[hurtem&healem]

Yeah. As long as you can obtain license from that country. DO is treated like physician at those country list in AOA list.

No. As long as you obtain a DO from the USA, you can practice as a physician in those other countries on the list. Although, to be precise, I don't know that means you can become licensed in those countries. For example, a US MD moving to Canada must practice under the supervision of a Canadian physician for a year or two, and may have to practice in a rural setting for some time depending on the province (not 100% on that part). I have no idea if Canada would ever license a DO, and even less of a clue about countries further removed from American influence.

A person who obtained a DO in any country besides the USA cannot practice as a physician anywhere in the world.



[quote uid=445525 name="kelminak" post=18163709]So can I go to some osteopathic "school" in Spain and claim to be a DO in the US? Isn't there something wrong about that?[/quote]

There is indeed something wrong with that in spirit, but the legality is highly variable dependent upon the state. They may be able to say they are an osteopath/they practice osteopathy (idk if that's actually true anywhere, just saying it may be). I'm certain they absolutely can't say they are an osteopathic physician/practice osteopathic medicine. Some manipulation is within the scope of naturopathic medicine, so he may be able to do it under that license. Again, this is dependent upon the state as to what level of manipulation that license will cover. As for actually using the DO title... I have no idea legally, but if he holds a doctorate degree in osteopathy, then he is technically a DO... of sorts. Just like a chiropractor is, technically, a doctor, just not of the physician variety.

 

[kelminak]

The person in question is not US trained. Hence, he is not a physician. The United States is the only country in which DOs are trained as physicians. The actual degree isn't even the same. Internationally, DO is Doctor of Osteopathy. In the US, DO is Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.


I hope that clears up any semantic uncertainty.

I know you're not responding to me, but this is definitely something I understand. What I don't feel should be possible is to even say you're a DO in the United States when you weren't trained here. It's misleading because DOs are expected to be physicians here, and to be otherwise is misleading to the patients.

 

[Geo16]

This is weird. Same abbreviation "DO" .... this is ultimately misleading!
It's Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) in Spain.
However, it's Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) in US.

Can other countries do this kind of thing?
Like making a degree that is misleading with other certified degrees in U.S.?
For example, make a degree called "MBA" and call it "Master of Basketball Administration."
So that a person who earned "MBA" by shooting some hoops somewhere .. are falsely qualified to lead a company in U.S.? Later, amaze them stockholders with intense knowledge in basketball rules.

This is so confusing. What is going on?

 

[group_theory]

https://www.drnuzum.com/dr-nuzum/

I found this naturopathic quackazoid exists in my state and claims to have a DO degree. In his "credentials", he studied at National University of Medical Sciences, which is a school that offers a DO degree online? Why is this possible? What can he actually do with this "degree"? It feels like it shouldn't even be legal to claim he's a DO. What do you all think?

The title "DO" and "osteopathic medicine" is a protected title, just like MD and "medical doctor" and claiming to be an osteopath or osteopathic physician in most state is actually illegal.

His clinic is in Idaho, and the relevant state law is as follows

54-1804. UNLICENSED PRACTICE -- PENALTIES AND REMEDIES RELATING TO UNLICENSED PRACTICE.

(3) Except as provided in subsections (1)(a), (1)(b), and (1)(c) above, it is unlawful for any person to assume or use the title or designation "medical doctor," "medical physician," "osteopathic doctor," "osteopathic physician," "M.D." or "D.O." or any other title, designation, words, letters, abbreviation, sign, card, or device to indicate to the public that such person is licensed to practice medicine pursuant to this chapter unless such person is so licensed, and upon conviction thereof, such person shall be imprisoned not to exceed one (1) year, or shall be fined not more than three thousand dollars ($3,000), or shall be punished by both fine and imprisonment.

However, his clinic also appears to be located on an Indian Reservation, and he claims to be licensed through "Turtle Island Provider Network" ... since I'm not a lawyer, I do not know what extent his "credentials" are in relationship to state laws, federal laws, and tribal laws.

 

[group_theory]

This is weird. Same abbreviation "DO" .... this is ultimately misleading!
It's Doctor of Osteopathy (DO) in Spain.
However, it's Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) in US.

Can other countries do this kind of thing?
Like making a degree that is misleading with other certified degrees in U.S.?
For example, make a degree called "MBA" and call it "Master of Basketball Administration."
So that a person who earned "MBA" by shooting some hoops somewhere .. are falsely qualified to lead a company in U.S.? Later, amaze them stockholders with intense knowledge in basketball rules.

This is so confusing. What is going on?

Most legitimate osteopathy schools outside the US don't award "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" ... DO actually stands for "Diploma of Osteopathy"

The British College of Osteopathic Medicine (BCOM/UK) offers the Diploma of Osteopathy, and their academic degrees is the BSc (Hons) and Master of Osteopathy (validated by Plymouth University)

The European School of Osteopathy (ESO) also offers the Diploma of Osteopathy and their academic degree is the Master of Osteopathy

There are only a handful of "schools" that would try to confuse the picture by offering the Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree ... I'll let you decide/imagine what the purposes of those non-AOA (and non-US) institutions are by offering such "degrees"

 

[Geo16]

DO actually stands for "Diploma of Osteopathy"

This school actually uses "Doctor of Osteopathy" as the title of their degree. Not Diploma of Osteopathy.
http://www.numss.com/DO.html
This is why it's scary. Can they make misleading degrees like this? Wouldn't it cause some dispute between two countries and therefore, leading to loss of accreditation of this school? Can AOA order cease and desist order to protect actual U.S. DOs? So that people can't use the title "DO" to mislead other people.

Don't get me wrong, @group_theory , I get your point. There are other countries that award respectful and certified Osteopathic Medicine degrees. However, calling it flat-out "Doctor of Osteopathy" should be illegal even outside the U.S. Because of the cases just like this.

 

[group_theory]

This school actually uses "Doctor of Osteopathy" as the title of their degree. Not Diploma of Osteopathy.
http://www.numss.com/DO.html
This is why it's scary. Can they make misleading degrees like this? Wouldn't it cause some dispute between two countries and therefore, leading to loss of accreditation of this school? Can AOA order cease and desist order to protect actual U.S. DOs? So that people can't use the title "DO" to mislead other people.

Don't get me wrong, @group_theory , I get your point. There are other countries that award respectful and certified Osteopathic Medicine degrees. However, calling it flat-out "Doctor of Osteopathy" should be illegal even outside the U.S. Because of the cases just like this.

Hence the phrase "legitimate" school.

As for whether the title D.O. or osteopath is protected depends on the country and whether DOs are regulated.

For example - in the UK, DOs (UK/European trained osteopaths) is a recognized profession and is regulated by the General Osteopathic Council (GOC). For US trained DOs (as well as all IMGs as well as UK trained physicians), they go through the General Medical Council (GMC). Someone not certified by the GOC in the UK cannot claim and cannot practice as an osteopath.

Spain does not recognize osteopathy as a profession, so the titles aren't protected. In the US, the ND degree is state dependent - some states recognized ND from certain schools and only NDs from those school can call themselves naturopaths. Other states don't recognize NDs so anyone (whether from a known ND school, or a fly-by-night online ND school) can call themselves naturopaths.

In Ontario, only a member of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario can use the title “osteopath”

To be honest, I'm not even sure if this school is recognized by the government of Spain to give academic degrees (I couldn't find information on their website, and they claim that their DO program is accredited by the Council of Manual Osteopathy Education)

 

[hallowmann]

So can I go to some osteopathic "school" in Spain and claim to be a DO in the US? Isn't there something wrong about that?

No. In all states, its governed by the state licensing body, but the use of "DO" and "MD" is protected, so just because someone has a degree from a foreign medical school doesn't mean they can advertise themselves as a physician.

This guy is an "ND", making him a naturopathic doctor, which is likely the degree under which he is licensed and advertises.

No. As long as you obtain a DO from the USA, you can practice as a physician in those other countries on the list. Although, to be precise, I don't know that means you can become licensed in those countries. For example, a US MD moving to Canada must practice under the supervision of a Canadian physician for a year or two, and may have to practice in a rural setting for some time depending on the province (not 100% on that part). I have no idea if Canada would ever license a DO, and even less of a clue about countries further removed from American influence.

A person who obtained a DO in any country besides the USA cannot practice as a physician anywhere in the world.


There is indeed something wrong with that in spirit, but the legality is highly variable dependent upon the state. They may be able to say they are an osteopath/they practice osteopathy (idk if that's actually true anywhere, just saying it may be). I'm certain they absolutely can't say they are an osteopathic physician/practice osteopathic medicine. Some manipulation is within the scope of naturopathic medicine, so he may be able to do it under that license. Again, this is dependent upon the state as to what level of manipulation that license will cover. As for actually using the DO title... I have no idea legally, but if he holds a doctorate degree in osteopathy, then he is technically a DO... of sorts. Just like a chiropractor is, technically, a doctor, just not of the physician variety.

You have to be licensed in most countries to practice independently. The only time this wouldn't be the case would be through aid organizations, in which case you have to be licensed in your home country (e.g. if you as a US DO/MD wanted to work for DWB/MSF you'd have to be licensed in the US).

Canada does license DOs in the same way that it licenses any foreign physicians. They need to have the LMCC (complete Canadian exams and 12 mos acceptable/equivalent training), complete appropriate residency for their field/province, and be certified by the CFPC, RCPSC, or CMQ.

 

[kelminak]

No. In all states, its governed by the state licensing body, but the use of "DO" and "MD" is protected, so just because someone has a degree from a foreign medical school doesn't mean they can advertise themselves as a physician.

This guy is an "ND", making him a naturopathic doctor, which is likely the degree under which he is licensed and advertises.



You have to be licensed in most countries to practice independently. The only time this wouldn't be the case would be through aid organizations, in which case you have to be licensed in your home country (e.g. if you as a US DO/MD wanted to work for DWB/MSF you'd have to be licensed in the US).

Canada does license DOs in the same way that it licenses any foreign physicians. They need to have the LMCC (complete Canadian exams and 12 mos acceptable/equivalent training), complete appropriate residency for their field/province, and be certified by the CFPC, RCPSC, or CMQ.

He refers to himself specifically this way: "He is also a licensed Tribal Practitioner with and counsel licensed Doctor of Natural Medicine and an Osteopathic Doctor". He also uses DO as one of the credentials after his name. Isn't that blatant enough to be against the law? @group_theory posted this (thanks btw):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"54-1804. UNLICENSED PRACTICE -- PENALTIES AND REMEDIES RELATING TO UNLICENSED PRACTICE.

(3) Except as provided in subsections (1)(a), (1)(b), and (1)(c) above, it is unlawful for any person to assume or use the title or designation "medical doctor," "medical physician," "osteopathic doctor," "osteopathic physician," "M.D." or "D.O." or any other title, designation, words, letters, abbreviation, sign, card, or device to indicate to the public that such person is licensed to practice medicine pursuant to this chapter unless such person is so licensed, and upon conviction thereof, such person shall be imprisoned not to exceed one (1) year, or shall be fined not more than three thousand dollars ($3,000), or shall be punished by both fine and imprisonment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Doesn't that pretty much consist of a title that indicates to the public he's licensed to practice medicine? Is it possible for me to report this person in some regard? I don't want this quackery nutzo using DO the way he is (and I just generally hate all psuedoscience crap).

 

[kelminak]

Gonna bumperino this because I still want to do something about this person. Would contacting the Idaho Board of Medicine be the right avenue?

 

[DrBowtie]

Gonna bumperino this because I still want to do something about this person. Would contacting the Idaho Board of Medicine be the right avenue?

They may not have jurisdiction on Indian land.

 

[grapples43]

They may not have jurisdiction on Indian land.

While his website talks a lot about tribal medicine, it looks like his practice is in Nampa and he claims to serve the entire Treasure Valley, none of which is on Indian land.

 

[DrBowtie]

The title "DO" and "osteopathic medicine" is a protected title, just like MD and "medical doctor" and claiming to be an osteopath or osteopathic physician in most state is actually illegal.

His clinic is in Idaho, and the relevant state law is as follows




However, his clinic also appears to be located on an Indian Reservation, and he claims to be licensed through "Turtle Island Provider Network" ... since I'm not a lawyer, I do not know what extent his "credentials" are in relationship to state laws, federal laws, and tribal laws.

While his website talks a lot about tribal medicine, it looks like his practice is in Nampa and he claims to serve the entire Treasure Valley, none of which is on Indian land.

Was just going off what was said above.

 

[kelminak]

Was just going off what was said above.

No harm at all, I appreciate all input.

While his website talks a lot about tribal medicine, it looks like his practice is in Nampa and he claims to serve the entire Treasure Valley, none of which is on Indian land.

That's what I was thinking too. Can't people go onto an Indian reservation? I just don't know who to report him to if anything can be done. Even if the person I report them too says there's nothing that can be done, I'd at least feel satisfied knowing I tried.

 

[Cawolf]

His Facebook lists him as a Ph.D and his videos list his name as DO, NMD - the order is intentional I am sure.

 

[kelminak]

His Facebook lists him as a Ph.D and his videos list his name as DO, NMD - the order is intentional I am sure.

Right?? Isn't that so frustrating? I just emailed the Idaho Board of Medicine, let's see how this plays out.

 

[velodork]

So can I go to some osteopathic "school" in Spain and claim to be a DO in the US? Isn't there something wrong about that?

You can go to an MD school anywhere and still legitimately claim to be a MD.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

You can go to an MD school anywhere and still legitimately claim to be a MD.

Osteopathic schools in America award a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree. Osteopathic schools everywhere else award a degree of osteopathy


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[Mad Jack]

Not necessarily true. US trained DOs are fully recognized physicians in most first world countries aside from Japan and France if I remember correctly.

As for the ND bs, they should really be banned in the US. It's quackery that feeds off of the whole "California anti-vaxxer organic vegan hippie crap". Like being largely benign like chiropractors is one thing, but these people literally lead the stupid and misinformed astray and put their health at risk by feeding off of the big pharma fears and Naturopathy BS that is favored by the millennial crowd.


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He was referring to foreign-granted DO degrees, not US-granted ones.

 

[kelminak]

You can go to an MD school anywhere and still legitimately claim to be a MD.

Osteopathic schools in America award a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree. Osteopathic schools everywhere else award a degree of osteopathy


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Bingo. A foreign-trained MD still has to complete a US residency to practice as an MD. Can these people still call themselves MD in the US and advertise their practice that way if they don't do so? I'm guessing not.