This is what happens when you don't do your research before applying

[ReformedKys]

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This girl basically did 0 research about medical schools and blindly applied to a Caribbean school that wasn't even one of the "Big 4". She goes on to say how her school isn't even accredited in many states but she wants to practice in California one day.

She also doesn't realize how nearly impossible it will be for her to get a US residency.

I'm not sure if I should feel sorry for her or if she deserves it for being so ignorant.

 

[dramatrauma]

This girl basically did 0 research about medical schools and blindly applied to a Caribbean school that wasn't even one of the "Big 4". She goes on to say how her school isn't even accredited in many states but she wants to practice in California one day.

She also doesn't realize how nearly impossible it will be for her to get a US residency.

I'm not sure if I should feel sorry for her or if she deserves it for being so ignorant.

It's great that she's trying to prevent others from making the same mistakes she made. But even after doing her "research," she's still delusional. Couldn't bear to finish the video; it's difficult to watch someone carelessly throw their dreams away.

 

[foxydocy]

On her blog she said that she was going to take the Step 1. Doesn't her school need to be accredited before she can take the USMLE?

She sounds like a very nice person tho.

 

[Holmwood]

I can only wish her the best.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Her medical school doesn't need prerequisites or an MCAT score. Shouldn't that have rung some alarm bells?

https://www.sjsm.org

 

[Holmwood]

Her medical school doesn't need prerequisites or an MCAT score. Shouldn't that have rung some alarm bells?

https://www.sjsm.org

You're right in that it should have set off all sorts of flags. But I guess not if you're desperate.

 

[CloverBale]

omg how sad 🙁 her parents must have been so proud when she got accepted, and image their despair when she had to explain that she wasted all that time/money!

 

[Moose A Moose]

Darwinism.

 

[Mansamusa]

Poor girl. She should have researched it more, but the problem is that there are so many Carib grads practicing in the US that it seems like a legit thing to do. She probably didn't realize that she had reasons to question the school and received advice from a friend of a friend who was a Carib grad that it was a good option for her

 

[TBV]

Can't feel bad for her its not 1970 you have internet and the google machine. I know this cause you found a medical school in bumf*ck nowhere.

 

[occams_razor]

Poor girl. She should have researched it more, but the problem is that there are so many Carib grads practicing in the US that it seems like a legit thing to do. She probably didn't realize that she had reasons to question the school and received advice from a friend of a friend who was a Carib grad that it was a good option for her

There are also pre-med advisors out there who tell students to go to carib med schools.


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[redferrari]

I literally got a headache watching that video. Perhaps she can still marry a doctor...

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

poor girl

There are also pre-med advisors out there who tell students to go to carib med schools.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

truly advice that can ruin lives.

 

[salemstein]

Another victim of the ridiculous series of hoops and barriers to becoming a doctor in America.

 

[redferrari]

Another victim of the ridiculous series of hoops and barriers to becoming a doctor in America.

Want to be a doctor in America? Go to med school in America. That usually works.

Doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.

 

[Mansamusa]

Another victim of the ridiculous series of hoops and barriers to becoming a doctor in America.

lol I never understood why everyone always complains about how the US doesn't allow just anyone to become a doctor. My career goals were always to work for an international health organization, but US med school debt would prevent that. I speak a bunch of languages and have a lot of countries in which I could possibly attend school so I looked into going abroad to get cheaper schooling, but guess what? They have huge barriers to people going to their schools too. Do you know hard it is to practice in Italy as a non-Italy med school grad? Every 1st world country has a competitive process to become a doctor- because you don't want just anyone to do it! Go to school in the country you want to practice- and if you CHOOSE to go outside of the country then you are not a victim; you made a choice (well, maybe a victim of false advertising).

The US is actually one of the easiest and least competitive countries in which to become a doctor. We have a 46% MD acceptance rate and then have a bunch of DO schools- that is mind-blowingly more easy than other countries- over 50% of applicants can get into a school in the US. In France, 90% of med students aren't allowed to pass to the 2nd yr and then after 6 yrs they take a test and their ranking determines the order in which they get to choose their specialization (and if surgery runs out, you aren't a surgeon and some of the specialties are things like physical therapy - which doctors don't do here. And sometimes they run out of spots and people don't get anything. Carib grads don't get a chance to that test in France). Educate yo'self before you wreck yo'self. The ridiculous hoop in the US is just the additional focus on research and the crazy tuition.

This poor student is a victim of misinformation and not fully understanding what she was doing- she was not a victim of the system /end rant

 

[salemstein]

Want to be a doctor in America? Go to med school in America. That usually works.

Doesn't seem that ridiculous to me.

Its the "Go to med school in America" part that cause people problems. More hoops are required, i.e. low acceptance rates (OK I know its nothing compared to France or something, but for a vast majority of the world, its easier), the loans you gotta take out, going through UG, just to name a few. Heck, you can even go to med school right after HS in some European countries.

 

[Lannister]

lol I
The US is actually one of the easiest and least competitive countries in which to become a doctor. We have a 46% MD acceptance rate and then have a bunch of DO schools- that is mind-blowingly more easy than other countries- over 50% of applicants can get into a school in the US. In France, 90% of med students aren't allowed to pass to the 2nd yr and then after 6 yrs they take a test and their ranking determines the order in which they get to choose their specialization (and if surgery runs out, you aren't a surgeon and some of the specialties are things like physical therapy - which doctors don't do here. And sometimes they run out of spots and people don't get anything. Carib grads don't get a chance to that test in France). Educate yo'self before you wreck yo'self. The ridiculous hoop in the US is just the additional focus on research and the crazy tuition.

I was under the impression that the United States was one of the most competitive countries for medical admissions. In many other countries, it's relatively easy to get into medical school, and that's reflected in higher fail rates.



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[Mansamusa]

Its the "Go to med school in America" part that cause people problems. More hoops are required, i.e. low acceptance rates (OK I know its nothing compared to France or something, but for a vast majority of the world, its easier), the loans you gotta take out, going through UG, just to name a few. Heck, you can even go to med school right after HS in some European countries.

http://mindonmed.com/2012/07/medical-school-in-denmark.html

Two things to note here. "Very competitive. The number of applications far exceed the number of places. At the moment, it’s the most sought after university degree in the country." "Entrance is granted through application. You take finals from “gymnasium” (roughly equivalent to last year of high school and first two years of college in the US)."

To be frank, our high schools are crap. We probably start med school with the same level of knowledge that these Europeans straight-out-of high school students have, hahaha. The grass is always greener. And it really is competitive everywhere. Can any Canadians tell me how many 3.3 GPA students got into a Canadian med school?

Plus, Americans always have a second chance/underdog mentality. "Yes, I got a 2.0 gpa, but I know I could do well in med school if you let me try. I deserve the chance to prove it." And medicine is the one field in the US that doesn't buy that and wants you to prove yourself first, so it runs counter that American sentiment and that angers some people.

(http://mindonmed.com/2011/05/medical-school-in-greece.html On this site, all European countries say it is very competitive while the US guy says relatively competitive. There are no numbers- which makes it difficult to actually gauge competitiveness- except Belgium says you need to be in the top 25%, which still, we have 50th percentile MCATs getting into our schools so we are easier)

 

[mpdoc2]

Its the "Go to med school in America" part that cause people problems. More hoops are required, i.e. low acceptance rates (OK I know its nothing compared to France or something, but for a vast majority of the world, its easier), the loans you gotta take out, going through UG, just to name a few. Heck, you can even go to med school right after HS in some European countries.

Those are seen as BS reasons by residency admission committees when applying. For my specialty people who went to Caribbean schools aren't even considered. If nothing else it's because it'll make our residency program look bad that we've accepted an IMG.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Another victim of the ridiculous series of hoops and barriers to becoming a doctor in America.

It shouldn't be easy to get into medical school; I don't want any regular Joe being my doc, or taking care of my family.. I want a brilliant person to do it, the finest of the fine. Such a person must of course be academically excellent, and excellent in many other ways.

Anyways, no sympathy for this girl... Basic 5 minute google would lead one to SDN and all sorts of other informative websites
If you can't do 5 minutes of research, you can't be a doctor.

When I decided pre-med, I researched the topic..
Average GPA, average ECs, average MCAT
So I deduced to be competitive one should have 3.7 minimum gpa, 518+ MCAT, 500 clinical, and 500 non-clinical volunteer hours which show consistency(you do a lot of work for homeless, or animals, elderly, blah blah blah), and at least 1 1/2 years rearch, preferably 2. Also a niche, a niche is key to make you stand out.. (americorp, veteran, division 1 athlete, musician, etc).. and the most important part is you'd do something similar even if you weren't going to med school, so being genuine is the glue that pieces it together.

That took me about a week to piece together.. and I'm building my app based on those core standards.
I mapped out my entire goal and seked a volunteer position starting the 1st week out of HS.. I spent my summer volunteering instead of vacationing

NOT HARD, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

 

[mpdoc2]

It shouldn't be easy to get into medical school; I don't want any regular Joe being my doc, or taking care of my family.. I want a brilliant person to do it, the finest of the fine. Such a person must of course be academically excellent, and excellent in many other ways.

Anyways, no sympathy for this girl... Basic 5 minute google would lead one to SDN and all sorts of other informative websites
If you can't do 5 minutes of research, you can't be a doctor.

When I decided pre-med, I researched the topic..
Average GPA, average ECs, average MCAT
So I deduced to be competitive one should have 3.7 minimum gpa, 518+ MCAT, 500 clinical, and 500 non-clinical volunteer hours which show consistency(you do a lot of work for homeless, or animals, elderly, blah blah blah), and at least 1 1/2 years rearch, preferably 2. Also a niche, a niche is key to make you stand out.. (americorp, veteran, division 1 athlete, musician, etc).. and the most important part is you'd do something similar even if you weren't going to med school, so being genuine is the glue that pieces it together.

That took me about a week to piece together.. and I'm building my app based on those core standards.
I mapped out my entire goal and seked a volunteer position starting the 1st week out of HS.. I spent my summer volunteering instead of vacationing

NOT HARD, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

It's interesting that you spent half as much time studying for the MCAT as you did volunteering. Your MCAT score is significantly more important than any volunteering hours you've done. A lot of my classmates admitted (in private) during orientation week that they added a zero to the number of hours they volunteered (and I went to a top 10 about 10 years ago).

 

[jaxon]

This video reminds me of a friend of mine who went through undergrad clueless, graduated, then decided he wanted to be a lawyer and thought "hm. well I can coach rowing at Georgetown and then I'll get law school paid for at Georgetown." (not how that works?) I asked him when he was taking the LSAT. "The L-what?"

I honestly don't know how people don't think to just Google "how to get into law school" or "how to get into med school." I really do feel for this girl though. It's a real crap situation to be in.

 

[JMULZ]

It shouldn't be easy to get into medical school; I don't want any regular Joe being my doc, or taking care of my family.. I want a brilliant person to do it, the finest of the fine. Such a person must of course be academically excellent, and excellent in many other ways.

Anyways, no sympathy for this girl... Basic 5 minute google would lead one to SDN and all sorts of other informative websites
If you can't do 5 minutes of research, you can't be a doctor.

When I decided pre-med, I researched the topic..
Average GPA, average ECs, average MCAT
So I deduced to be competitive one should have 3.7 minimum gpa, 518+ MCAT, 500 clinical, and 500 non-clinical volunteer hours which show consistency(you do a lot of work for homeless, or animals, elderly, blah blah blah), and at least 1 1/2 years rearch, preferably 2. Also a niche, a niche is key to make you stand out.. (americorp, veteran, division 1 athlete, musician, etc).. and the most important part is you'd do something similar even if you weren't going to med school, so being genuine is the glue that pieces it together.

That took me about a week to piece together.. and I'm building my app based on those core standards.
I mapped out my entire goal and seked a volunteer position starting the 1st week out of HS.. I spent my summer volunteering instead of vacationing

NOT HARD, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

Also interesting that you don't believe it to be hard, given that you haven't done it yet. But criticism of your attitude aside, I have some good news.... you're a little off the mark in your assessment of what it takes. 518+ and 500/500 volunteer hours are in fact VERY hard, but fortunately unnecessary. The more the merrier on both fronts, but I would if I were to do it all over again, I would like my chances with a 3.7, 510, and a few hundred volunteer hours.

By the way, when I point out that you haven't done it, it's nothing personal and I do NOT intend to suggest any doubt that you can accomplish it.... just that when you do, you will see a lot of smart, talented, capable people around you who do not get an acceptance. Then it will sink in just how competitive it is. On another note, it might make you think differently about the entire theme of this thread.... there are a lot of competent people out there who dream of being a doctor, would probably make a great physician, and yet never get that chance. And this at a time when there is a well-documented physician shortage. When I look at some of my peers from undergrad who were not admitted, I ask myself if I would trust them with my health or that of my family, and in several instances the answer is yes. I agree that standards of admittance must be strenuously upheld, but I wonder if we've missed the mark when we are denying perfectly capable people the opportunity to be doctors. To me, the solution is simple.... we need a LOT more seats in US medical schools. That way we can begin to address the physician shortage while lessening our health system's dependence on this Caribbean pipeline that is clearly not in the best interest of medical students, as evidenced by this SOL girl above, whose speech I honestly did not watch a second of because IDGAF.

 

[Mansamusa]

Also interesting that you don't believe it to be hard, given that you haven't done it yet. But criticism of your attitude aside, I have some good news.... you're a little off the mark in your assessment of what it takes. 518+ and 500/500 volunteer hours are in fact VERY hard, but fortunately unnecessary. The more the merrier on both fronts, but I would if I were to do it all over again, I would like my chances with a 3.7, 510, and a few hundred volunteer hours.

By the way, when I point out that you haven't done it, it's nothing personal and I do NOT intend to suggest any doubt that you can accomplish it.... just that when you do, you will see a lot of smart, talented, capable people around you who do not get an acceptance. Then it will sink in just how competitive it is. On another note, it might make you think differently about the entire theme of this thread.... there are a lot of competent people out there who dream of being a doctor, would probably make a great physician, and yet never get that chance. And this at a time when there is a well-documented physician shortage. When I look at some of my peers from undergrad who were not admitted, I ask myself if I would trust them with my health or that of my family, and in several instances the answer is yes. I agree that standards of admittance must be strenuously upheld, but I wonder if we've missed the mark when we are denying perfectly capable people the opportunity to be doctors. To me, the solution is simple.... we need a LOT more seats in US medical schools. That way we can begin to address the physician shortage while lessening our health system's dependence on this Caribbean pipeline that is clearly not in the best interest of medical students, as evidenced by this SOL girl above, whose speech I honestly did not watch a second of because IDGAF.

The reason it isn't good to go to the Carib is that we do not depend on this pipeline- and since we have already had enough med school expansion, the gap has already been closed. By 2022, at least, there will likely be as many or more US grads than there are residencies. We have enough students to fill our residencies. There is not a shortage of physicians, but rather a maldistribution of doctors.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/35/3/388.full.pdf This article (if you have access to the journal) has a nice map that shows physician distribution. There are 4 times the density of physicians in the northeast than many other areas (I don't remember the exact number- I read this article at work, emailed it to myself because I liked that map, and now I don't have access to the journal at home).

And trusting someone doesn't mean they will be a good doctor. Admissions directors have said multiple times that half of MD applicants have no business applying. That leaves 4% of applicants who are qualified, but left in limbo. They can reapply and get in and have DO schools as options.

(http://web.stanford.edu/group/ruralwest/cgi-bin/drupal/content/rural-health-care this is also an interesting read, and you could see that the per capita number of physicians has more than doubled since the 1960s so there has been a large increase in physicians. They congregate in big cities though and the west does not have major cities in close proximity as the east does so they have limited access out there)


Edit: Awww, yeah. I realized I now have off-campus access to journals through the med school I'm going to this year. So the map showed that in the Northeast region, there is a per capita density of physicians of over 300 per 100,000 (over 400 in some areas), while other parts vary from under 175 up to 300. It is a very striking map when you see how concentrated the oversaturated physician areas are

 

[osckey]

Its the "Go to med school in America" part that cause people problems. More hoops are required, i.e. low acceptance rates (OK I know its nothing compared to France or something, but for a vast majority of the world, its easier), the loans you gotta take out, going through UG, just to name a few. Heck, you can even go to med school right after HS in some European countries.

Buddy, the hoops weren't that many and I know plenty of shady people freshman year who said they wanted to be doctors and got weeded out. Thank GOD ALMIGHTY that those people will never touch a patient. The standard exists for a reason. The profession isn't a game.

 

[JMULZ]

The reason it isn't good to go to the Carib is that we do not depend on this pipeline- and since we have already had enough med school expansion, the gap has already been closed. By 2022, at least, there will likely be as many or more US grads than there are residencies. We have enough students to fill our residencies. There is not a shortage of physicians, but rather a maldistribution of doctors.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/35/3/388.full.pdf This article (if you have access to the journal) has a nice map that shows physician distribution. There are 4 times the density of physicians in the northeast than everywhere else (I don't remember the exact number- I read this article at work, emailed it to myself because I liked that map, and now I don't have access to the journal at home).

And trusting someone doesn't mean they will be a good doctor. Admissions directors have said multiple time that half of MD applicants have no business applying. That leaves 4% of applicants who are qualified, but left in limbo. They can reapply and get in and have DO schools as options.

(http://web.stanford.edu/group/ruralwest/cgi-bin/drupal/content/rural-health-care this is also an interesting read, and you could see that the per capita number of physicians has more than doubled since the 1960s so there has been a large increase in physicians. They congregate in big cities though and the west does not have major cities in close proximity as the east does so they have limited access out there)

Lol where to begin... Yes, of course there is an element of spatial misallocation from the standpoint of public good, i.e. where doctors are most needed. But unless your solution is to tell people where they have to practice, that is equivalent to a shortage, because labor markets obey supply and demand, and that does not equate to public good. All your map demonstrates is that an insufficient quantity of physicians are geographically concentrated in one area.... it does not speak to whether that existing number of physicians is adequate to meet existing needs. If 10 people in the NE have 10 whoppers and 50 people in the NW have 25 whoppers, redistribution won't fix the problem... people gonna get hangry no matter what you do with your 35 whoppers.
Ultimately, if healthcare consumers can sustain the concentration of providers in the northeast, and physicians still choose to practice there, then the market is not in fact oversaturated. It is more or less in equilibrium, with 10 whoppers for 10 people. If it weren't, physicians would be unemployed and would move west until equilibrium is reached. But if the NE DOES support that concentration of doctors, then what is called for is not a reallocation, but an increase in supply. The problem is that there is an artificial shortage, and that shortage is maintained by the AMA, which essentially acts as a labor union would (only far more successfully) by controlling supply. The AMA, as we all know, has a great deal to say about the number of residencies by wielding influence when it comes to federal funding. Which brings us to your point about grads vs. residencies. Who cares if we have enough students to fill our residencies? Who cares whether the limiting factor is medical school seats or residency seats? It's still an artificial shortage. If I have 20 whoppers and 20 plates, there are enough plates for all my whoppers, but if I have 40 people to feed, who gives a damn what the ratio of plates to whoppers is? Likewise, who cares if there are enough students to fill existing residencies? When it comes to the fact that people lack access to a doctor, no one cares about residencies vs. seats. We need more of both. You can't make a doctor relocate to Gallup, New Mexico, but when salaries dwindle and jobs dry up in Manhattan and Boston, they'll go of their own accord.
Still, the AMA is not just controlling supply for the sake of physician salaries, of course, but also to uphold standards of care. Taking for granted that ~50% of applicants are inadequate, it's still well-known that admissions is a really, really random process (I speak from experience on this one, with some insane disparities between acceptances and rejections) and there are thousands of unfortunate applicants out there who are identical to or even more qualified than the bottom tier of accepted applicants. Nothing separates the final 10% from the first 10% out, and we are kidding ourselves if we say that by barring them from medical school we are simply upholding standards.
But as you mentioned, trusting someone doesn't mean they'd make a good doctor.... well no ****. I trust that they would make GOOD DOCTORS based on what I know of their intellect and skills, not because I trust them to keep an eye on my dog or something dumb like that. I mean, you don't have to be a genius to practice FM.... if the bottom 10% of current classes can do it, so can the next 10-15% without any appreciable drop-off in quality. So up the seats, up the residencies (only in primary care specialties)

 

[Dr.Sticks]

It's interesting that you spent half as much time studying for the MCAT as you did volunteering. Your MCAT score is significantly more important than any volunteering hours you've done. A lot of my classmates admitted (in private) during orientation week that they added a zero to the number of hours they volunteered (and I went to a top 10 about 10 years ago).

I haven't started yet
I'll start next summer and take it in spring probably
However currently I'm unsure if I want to take a gap year or not.. I'd like to do more research

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Also interesting that you don't believe it to be hard, given that you haven't done it yet. But criticism of your attitude aside, I have some good news.... you're a little off the mark in your assessment of what it takes. 518+ and 500/500 volunteer hours are in fact VERY hard, but fortunately unnecessary. The more the merrier on both fronts, but I would if I were to do it all over again, I would like my chances with a 3.7, 510, and a few hundred volunteer hours.

By the way, when I point out that you haven't done it, it's nothing personal and I do NOT intend to suggest any doubt that you can accomplish it.... just that when you do, you will see a lot of smart, talented, capable people around you who do not get an acceptance. Then it will sink in just how competitive it is. On another note, it might make you think differently about the entire theme of this thread.... there are a lot of competent people out there who dream of being a doctor, would probably make a great physician, and yet never get that chance. And this at a time when there is a well-documented physician shortage. When I look at some of my peers from undergrad who were not admitted, I ask myself if I would trust them with my health or that of my family, and in several instances the answer is yes. I agree that standards of admittance must be strenuously upheld, but I wonder if we've missed the mark when we are denying perfectly capable people the opportunity to be doctors. To me, the solution is simple.... we need a LOT more seats in US medical schools. That way we can begin to address the physician shortage while lessening our health system's dependence on this Caribbean pipeline that is clearly not in the best interest of medical students, as evidenced by this SOL girlo above, whose speech I honestly did not watch a second of because IDGAF.

The 518+ might be very hard, but the 1000 combined volunteer hours isn't really
If you have a free weekend just once a week, you're solid

I'm almost at 200.. by the end of the summer I should be at 400

We have a crisis in rural health care, yes.. It's sad, and I don't think we'll ever fix the shortage. Using midlevel providers seems to be the best hope to cover those in very rural areas.

 

[Mansamusa]

Lol where to begin... Yes, of course there is an element of spatial misallocation from the standpoint of public good, i.e. where doctors are most needed. But unless your solution is to tell people where they have to practice, that is equivalent to a shortage, because labor markets obey supply and demand, and that does not equate to public good. All your map demonstrates is that an insufficient quantity of physicians are geographically concentrated in one area.... it does not speak to whether that existing number of physicians is adequate to meet existing needs. If 10 people in the NE have 10 whoppers and 50 people in the NW have 25 whoppers, redistribution won't fix the problem... people gonna get hangry no matter what you do with your 35 whoppers.
Ultimately, if healthcare consumers can sustain the concentration of providers in the northeast, and physicians still choose to practice there, then the market is not in fact oversaturated. It is more or less in equilibrium, with 10 whoppers for 10 people. If it weren't, physicians would be unemployed and would move west until equilibrium is reached. But if the NE DOES support that concentration of doctors, then what is called for is not a reallocation, but an increase in supply. The problem is that there is an artificial shortage, and that shortage is maintained by the AMA, which essentially acts as a labor union would (only far more successfully) by controlling supply. The AMA, as we all know, has a great deal to say about the number of residencies by wielding influence when it comes to federal funding. Which brings us to your point about grads vs. residencies. Who cares if we have enough students to fill our residencies? Who cares whether the limiting factor is medical school seats or residency seats? It's still an artificial shortage. If I have 20 whoppers and 20 plates, there are enough plates for all my whoppers, but if I have 40 people to feed, who gives a damn what the ratio of plates to whoppers is? Likewise, who cares if there are enough students to fill existing residencies? When it comes to the fact that people lack access to a doctor, no one cares about residencies vs. seats. We need more of both. You can't make a doctor relocate to Gallup, New Mexico, but when salaries dwindle and jobs dry up in Manhattan and Boston, they'll go of their own accord.
Still, the AMA is not just controlling supply for the sake of physician salaries, of course, but also to uphold standards of care. Taking for granted that ~50% of applicants are inadequate, it's still well-known that admissions is a really, really random process (I speak from experience on this one, with some insane disparities between acceptances and rejections) and there are thousands of unfortunate applicants out there who are identical to or even more qualified than the bottom tier of accepted applicants. Nothing separates the final 10% from the first 10% out, and we are kidding ourselves if we say that by barring them from medical school we are simply upholding standards.
But as you mentioned, trusting someone doesn't mean they'd make a good doctor.... well no ****. I trust that they would make GOOD DOCTORS based on what I know of their intellect and skills, not because I trust them to keep an eye on my dog or something dumb like that. I mean, you don't have to be a genius to practice FM.... if the bottom 10% of current classes can do it, so can the next 10-15% without any appreciable drop-off in quality. So up the seats, up the residencies (only in primary care specialties)

You glossed over the fact where I said that the bottom who has bad luck, but is qualified, will then have DO as an option and reapplying.

It is also not a simple case of supply and demand. If you saturate the market so much that people have to start moving to locations that they find undesireable, what would happen? They will find non-clinical jobs rather than move. They aren't going to pick up and relocate. Look at NYC where starting salaries are so much less than everywhere else and taxes are higher than any other location, but people still flock there and refuse to leave- same for California. Which is why it would be more efficient to instead learn to identify the people most likely to serve these underserved areas and provide them with the resources to get there- using the resourxes we already have. Hell, NPs were even supposed to flood the primary care market and move their way into these underserved areas, but they didn't want to go. NP are following supply and demand, and as a New Yorker, I know that the NPs who don't find jobs fall back into RN positions rather than leave. Plus, there are many rural areas that don't produce enough demand for physicians, but they still need physicians. Supply and demand is not a good way to look at this problem

And there hasn't been an agreement as to whether or not our current number of physicians is adequate (even that Stanford paper that advocates for rual communities mentioned that it is debatable) and you haven't provided any resources to suggest that the number of physicians we have isn't adequate. It is hard to quantify physician need. The artificial shortage you speak of is not unique to the US- every country limits its physicians and limits specialization according to its needs and the funding available. It would be a huge waste of money to train a physician who couldn't then get a job and who isn't needed, which is part of the reason why its done like that. Not to mention, if you make it so that jobs are hard to get on the other end of training, then no one would give up the 14 yrs of their lives just for the chance to compete in the job market. Many of the quality applicants would turn towards other fields. Flooding the market probably won't do anything but make becoming a physician a less desireable career.

"Who cares if there are enough students to fill existing residencies?" You do, that's why you expressed anger over the Carib pipeline dependence. I was saying that since expansion has already occurred, the room for these students will be less and less. Plus primary care residencies have been expanding and graduates are still doing everything they can, including not matching, to avoid them.

All you have to do is look at new DO schools to know that continuing to expand means accepting people who aren't academically qualified. Like I said, it is already easier to get into med school in the US than anywhere else expanding even more will bring it to the point where really just anyone can choose to go to med school.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...30imOskoIsSq_QP8Q&sig2=XcCNGInySyhca3B1BbWGWw One quarter of DO matriculants have a science GPA under 3.19 and 60% have a MCAT in the 50-60th percentiles and 20% are below the 50th percentile. You can't expand more without compromising quality

 

[Lucca]

The 518+ might be very hard, but the 1000 combined volunteer hours isn't really
If you have a free weekend just once a week, you're solid

I'm almost at 200.. by the end of the summer I should be at 400

We have a crisis in rural health care, yes.. It's sad, and I don't think we'll ever fix the shortage. Using midlevel providers seems to be the best hope to cover those in very rural areas.

U definitely don't need a 518+ to be competitive. You don't need to be in the 99th percentile to get into an MD school lol.

510+ and you are fine, scoring at least that much isn't that hard.

 

[Ad2b]

I couldn't get past the chimes going off in background.

 

[mellie0]

"Some of the profs don't have a background in the specialty that they're teaching." (@11:55) 😱

 

[Monkey.King]

It shouldn't be easy to get into medical school; I don't want any regular Joe being my doc, or taking care of my family.. I want a brilliant person to do it, the finest of the fine. Such a person must of course be academically excellent, and excellent in many other ways.

Anyways, no sympathy for this girl... Basic 5 minute google would lead one to SDN and all sorts of other informative websites
If you can't do 5 minutes of research, you can't be a doctor.

When I decided pre-med, I researched the topic..
Average GPA, average ECs, average MCAT
So I deduced to be competitive one should have 3.7 minimum gpa, 518+ MCAT, 500 clinical, and 500 non-clinical volunteer hours which show consistency(you do a lot of work for homeless, or animals, elderly, blah blah blah), and at least 1 1/2 years rearch, preferably 2. Also a niche, a niche is key to make you stand out.. (americorp, veteran, division 1 athlete, musician, etc).. and the most important part is you'd do something similar even if you weren't going to med school, so being genuine is the glue that pieces it together.

That took me about a week to piece together.. and I'm building my app based on those core standards.
I mapped out my entire goal and seked a volunteer position starting the 1st week out of HS.. I spent my summer volunteering instead of vacationing

NOT HARD, DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

I agree. I am planning to do the same when I graduate. And I do feel sorry for her, but did it not occur to her even once to google something? I found out Caribbean schools were a no no the first day I started researching how to get into med school.

And a question. Why do you need to stand out? Sure, it might make you a interesting and unique person, but where does that fit in med school? It's not like people are there to socialize (unless med school has clubs and stuff?) and with everything going on there it's not like you'll have the time to do those hobbies or sports on a regular basis. It doesn't seem like it's like UG, where they don't just choose applicants who will academically succeed, but students who will enrich their campus by joining clubs and continuing a tradition of what that specific UG is famous for.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I agree. I am planning to do the same when I graduate. And I do feel sorry for her, but did it not occur to her even once to google something? I found out Caribbean schools were a no no the first day I started researching how to get into med school.

And a question. Why do you need to stand out? Sure, it might make you a interesting and unique person, but where does that fit in med school? It's not like people are there to socialize (unless med school has clubs and stuff?) and with everything going on there it's not like you'll have the time to do those hobbies or sports on a regular basis. It doesn't seem like it's like UG, where they don't just choose applicants who will academically succeed, but students who will enrich their campus by joining clubs and continuing a tradition of what that specific UG is famous for.

Because if in a sea of blue you wear red your chances increase of being noticed..
I may be wrong, maybe an adcoms could correct me.

U definitely don't need a 518+ to be competitive. You don't need to be in the 99th percentile to get into an MD school lol.

510+ and you are fine, scoring at least that much isn't that hard.

Yeah, but I'd like to get into a nice med school. My state med school is getting more competitive as time goes forward, I wouldn't be surprised if it made it to the top 30s... it's almost there anyways

 

[JMULZ]

you haven't provided any resources to suggest that the number of physicians we have isn't adequate. It is hard to quantify physician need.

Don't need resources.... unemployment among physicians is negligible and there are still people who can't get a doctor. Sounds like a shortage to me. If your response to that is that theoretically there are enough doctors but they're not well-allocated, then unless you think someone's going to start telling them where to work, that is simply theoretical. In the real world, yes, there is a shortage. I know some premeds have never left the burbs and can't imagine the types of places where this shortage exists, so I suppose only numbers will do. If you insist, here ya go:
https://www.aamc.org/download/426260/data/physiciansupplyanddemandthrough2025keyfindings.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/426242/data/ihsreportdownload.pdf

A shortage of 90,000 physicians by 2025.... yikes!

I think you're right that one of the best ways to meet needs in underserved areas is to train people from those communities, but changing the demographic doesn't address the shortage. You're also right that supply and demand won't fix the problem on their own. Personally I don't think anything short a national, single-payer health plan will, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. But regardless, it has to be accompanied by an increase in school seats and residencies.

The artificial shortage you speak of is not unique to the US- every country limits its physicians and limits specialization according to its needs and the funding available. It would be a huge waste of money to train a physician who couldn't then get a job and who isn't needed, which is part of the reason why its done like that. Not to mention, if you make it so that jobs are hard to get on the other end of training, then no one would give up the 14 yrs of their lives just for the chance to compete in the job market.

Yeah I am pretty sure they could ease up on restricting supply without making us fight tooth and nail over available jobs. They ARE needed. It will just change the equation.... if you're one of those people who will only consider NYC, LA, or Chicago (like the girl at one of my interviews who referred to my state as a "flyover") then you might have more competition for a job, and if that scares you, go be a lawyer. Oh... wait.... no don't be a lawyer if you don't want to compete for jobs. Go be a..... I don't know. Point is, there is absolutely 0 danger of "flooding the market" to the point where jobs are hard to come by. By the way, "flooding the market" implies and overabundance, which will never, ever happen while the AMA and AAMC are still breathing.

"Who cares if there are enough students to fill existing residencies?" You do, that's why you expressed anger over the Carib pipeline dependence.

No, I don't care. You made the point that there are enough students to fill existing residencies, and I'd like to mention that that is irrelevant. What is important is whether there are enough students, and residencies, to address the need for physicians. And I'm really not angry about the Caribbean pipeline. Maybe I should be, but I just don't care because I'm not stuck in one of them. I'm simply of the detached opinion that if they're so bad, it would be OK to see them go when US-based schools inevitably expand to train more doctors.

Plus primary care residencies have been expanding and graduates are still doing everything they can, including not matching, to avoid them.

Give them a year of floundering under debt.... they'll take the primary care residency.

All you have to do is look at new DO schools to know that continuing to expand means accepting people who aren't academically qualified. Like I said, it is already easier to get into med school in the US than anywhere else expanding even more will bring it to the point where really just anyone can choose to go to med school.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...30imOskoIsSq_QP8Q&sig2=XcCNGInySyhca3B1BbWGWw One quarter of DO matriculants have a science GPA under 3.19 and 60% have a MCAT in the 50-60th percentiles and 20% are below the 50th percentile. You can't expand more without compromising quality

You might be right that schools can't expand without sacrificing some quality at the bottom..... oh well. A doctor who got a B in organic chemistry is better than no doctor at all. If for whatever reason you're worried about US standards keeping up with those of other countries, then turn to primary, secondary, and undergrad education to prepare a more competitive field of applicants. Maintaining this threshold that chokes off an adequate supply of doctors is not the answer. We have to let more people in, and some of them aren't going to be 4.0, 520+ all-stars. As long as they know when to defer to a specialist, they'll do.

 

[Mansamusa]

Don't need resources.... unemployment among physicians is negligible and there are still people who can't get a doctor. Sounds like a shortage to me. If your response to that is that theoretically there are enough doctors but they're not well-allocated, then unless you think someone's going to start telling them where to work, that is simply theoretical. In the real world, yes, there is a shortage. I know some premeds have never left the burbs and can't imagine the types of places where this shortage exists, so I suppose only numbers will do. If you insist, here ya go:
https://www.aamc.org/download/426260/data/physiciansupplyanddemandthrough2025keyfindings.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/426242/data/ihsreportdownload.pdf

A shortage of 90,000 physicians by 2025.... yikes!

I think you're right that one of the best ways to meet needs in underserved areas is to train people from those communities, but changing the demographic doesn't address the shortage. You're also right that supply and demand won't fix the problem on their own. Personally I don't think anything short a national, single-payer health plan will, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. But regardless, it has to be accompanied by an increase in school seats and residencies.



Yeah I am pretty sure they could ease up on restricting supply without making us fight tooth and nail over available jobs. They ARE needed. It will just change the equation.... if you're one of those people who will only consider NYC, LA, or Chicago (like the girl at one of my interviews who referred to my state as a "flyover") then you might have more competition for a job, and if that scares you, go be a lawyer. Oh... wait.... no don't be a lawyer if you don't want to compete for jobs. Go be a..... I don't know. Point is, there is absolutely 0 danger of "flooding the market" to the point where jobs are hard to come by. By the way, "flooding the market" implies and overabundance, which will never, ever happen while the AMA and AAMC are still breathing.



No, I don't care. You made the point that there are enough students to fill existing residencies, and I'd like to mention that that is irrelevant. What is important is whether there are enough students, and residencies, to address the need for physicians. And I'm really not angry about the Caribbean pipeline. Maybe I should be, but I just don't care because I'm not stuck in one of them. I'm simply of the detached opinion that if they're so bad, it would be OK to see them go when US-based schools inevitably expand to train more doctors already.



Give them a year of floundering under debt.... they'll take the primary care residency.



You might be right that schools can't expand without sacrificing some quality at the bottom..... oh well. A doctor who got a B in organic chemistry is better than no doctor at all. If for whatever reason you're worried about US standards keeping up with those of other countries, then turn to primary, secondary, and undergrad education to prepare a more competitive field of applicants. Maintaining this threshold that chokes off an adequate supply of doctors is not the answer. We have to let more people in, and some of them aren't going to be 4.0, 520+ all-stars. As long as they know when to defer to a specialist, they'll do.

I don't see how single payer healthcare would address a shortage (and it would almost definitely make it worse in terms of physician supply for the first couple decades after it is established). And the AAMC is an organization that benefits from the expansion of schools so 1) they aren't fighting to restrict supply 2) they are biased.

And then that long link said that they revised their predicted shortage estimates to: 12K in primary care and 28K in specialists (they say about 46K overall), with surgeons having the greatest shortage because of "the lack of ability to augment staffing with other types of clinicians." So primary care isn't even their major concern. They then say that there are uncertainties regarding how emerging care models and change in practices and economics will affect the actual physician supply and demand outcome. And there is also the concern about the rate of physician retirement based on economic factors and work satisfaction. If retirement increases because of these factors, you will also have trouble getting people to continue wanting to be doctors. The fact that each new study the projected shortage gets drastically smaller suggest that 1) their predictions aren't too accurate and don't incorporate all the changes that have been happening, 2) what we've been doing has been working or a combo of the 2

There was actually a medscape article recently where academic centers are trying to get "volume laws" going, at least in their centers, where surgeons can't perform surgeries if they didn't perform X number in the past year. That is to ensure quality care. If this becomes widespread, that would mean rural surgical patients will be sent to larger hospital centers for major non-emergent surgeries (small middle of nowhere hospitals won't be able to provide surgeons with X number of certain procedures) and this would also be a strike against private practices, which would reduce the demand for surgeons in rural areas and shift that demand to large hospitals that have a good supply of doctors. Thereby even starting to address surgical shortages


And I absolutely disagree that we should lower standards in order to increase the supply of doctors. Many NP and PA schools have higher standards then new DO schools, so I would prefer we use them (NPs and PAs) on a team with a doctor rather than lower our standards for doctors. Not to mention, going to a doctor doesn't mean jack if the doctor isn't of a good quality. Not be treated is better than seeing a physician who doesn't know what they are doing (my aunt just had to get her colon removed because of a mistake of a rural doctor with poor training- the problem was entirely caused by the doctor; if anything we should be increasing standards because there are a lot of poorly trained doctors out there)

Edit: Don't forget that more low quality doctors--> more malpractice suits--> doctors represent a higher liability and malpractice premiums increase by a lot--> more healthcare costs

But I don't think we'll agree on this

 

[jqueb29]

500 clinical, and 500 non-clinical volunteer hours which show consistency(you do a lot of work for homeless, or animals, elderly, blah blah blah), and at least 1 1/2 years rearch

Yeeesh those hour estimates are crazy high lol. Maybe it's gone up in the past couple years but I had no problem competing with nowhere near that many hours

 

[salemstein]

Damn, too many gunners these days. But I can't blame you guys at all. Admissions are trending more and more competitive. I learned the hard way to overshoot rather than undershoot/go for average. Guess that's what it takes to get into med.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Damn, too many gunners these days. But I can't blame you guys at all. Admissions are trending more and more competitive. I learned the hard way to overshoot rather than undershoot/go for average. Guess that's what it takes to get into med.

Average person who gets into med school has a 31 mcat, and an overall average 3.7 gpa... (3.77 non science avg, and 3.65 something science)
That is the person who gets in on average..
If you're not gunning for the best possible, and the top of the end ECs, you're hurting your chances
I can only imagine it getting more and more competitive

Yeeesh those hour estimates are crazy high lol. Maybe it's gone up in the past couple years but I had no problem competing with nowhere near that many hours

I like to go above and beyond.. Of course my gpa is first priority

 

[gyngyn]

Because if in a sea of blue you wear red your chances increase of being noticed..
I may be wrong, maybe an adcoms could correct me.

You don't need to stand out as much as you need to stand in. That is, remind us of other wonderful students we've taught, sharing their personal qualities and attitude.

 

[Giovanotto]

I didn't read everything on here cause it got crazy, but as far as I know (knew?) every student in france can more or less enter medical school, but after the 1st year you take a test and only those who pass move on to 2nd year. In Italy, admissions is ONLY determined by one exam (now, it varies year by year, oh and you have to have gone to a "scientific" high school). If that's not easy I don't know what is. You can retake it as well.

 

[Mansamusa]

I didn't read everything on here cause it got crazy, but as far as I know (knew?) every student in france can more or less enter medical school, but after the 1st year you take a test and only those who pass move on to 2nd year. In Italy, admissions is ONLY determined by one exam (now, it varies year by year, oh and you have to have gone to a "scientific" high school). If that's not easy I don't know what is. You can retake it as well.

I don't that much about the competitiveness of Italian med school admissions, but I know it is very hard to get a job as a physician in Italy if you are not Italian and that entrance exam is ranked. For France, it isn't just passing the test. About 1,000-2,000 students take the test and only the top 100 scorers get to move on to yr 2 (you take the test to compete for yr 2 spots). So for MD admissions, that would be like 200,000-400,000 students take the MCAT and then the top 20,000 get in.

(And, yes, the competition for yr 2 French spots is against your classmates. So Paris med schools are the most cutthroat and the schools in more rural areas are less competitive)

 

[redferrari]

I don't that much about the competitiveness of Italian med school admissions, but I know it is very hard to get a job as a physician in Italy if you are not Italian and that entrance exam is ranked. For France, it isn't just passing the test. About 1,000-2,000 students take the test and only the top 100 scorers get to move on to yr 2 (you take the test to compete for yr 2 spots). So for MD admissions, that would be like 200,000-400,000 students take the MCAT and then the top 20,000 get in.

I'm sure about 200,000-400,000 start college as pre-med every year. After four years, the top 20,000 get to continue.

 

[jaxon]

I'm sure about 200,000-400,000 start college as pre-med every year. After four years, the top 20,000 get to continue.

my school went from 500ish to now fewer than 30 who are either going straight to med school or at least still plan to after one or more gap years. And I don't think that's anywhere out of the ordinary honestly.

 

[Mansamusa]

I'm sure about 200,000-400,000 start college as pre-med every year. After four years, the top 20,000 get to continue.

Not exactly. In France, you take a specialized track in high school. If you want to do sciences, you take and pass the bac S track. This includes a 30 page research thesis (and oral presentation). The terminal exam includes all subject (including a 2nd and 3rd language). Then the individual science tests are all 3-4 hrs and include lab components (I just did a quick add up and their final test for their high school degree is 38hrs of testing + optional exams)

So students starting med school in France have a much stronger science base and they know that this is what they want to do. They aren't exploring like our students do. And they know that they can do well in sciences, so it's not like here where pre-meds discover that they can't learn chemistry during the 1st semester

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I'm sure about 200,000-400,000 start college as pre-med every year. After four years, the top 20,000 get to continue.

According to the stats over 50k apply, somewhat around 20k get in

 

[Mansamusa]

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMclde1513948#t=article

If anyone is interested in the volume pledge for ensuring quality surgery, here is a NEJM article where physicians weigh in

 

[Mansamusa]

Don't need resources.... unemployment among physicians is negligible and there are still people who can't get a doctor. Sounds like a shortage to me. If your response to that is that theoretically there are enough doctors but they're not well-allocated, then unless you think someone's going to start telling them where to work, that is simply theoretical. In the real world, yes, there is a shortage. I know some premeds have never left the burbs and can't imagine the types of places where this shortage exists, so I suppose only numbers will do. If you insist, here ya go:
https://www.aamc.org/download/426260/data/physiciansupplyanddemandthrough2025keyfindings.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/426242/data/ihsreportdownload.pdf

A shortage of 90,000 physicians by 2025.... yikes!

I think you're right that one of the best ways to meet needs in underserved areas is to train people from those communities, but changing the demographic doesn't address the shortage. You're also right that supply and demand won't fix the problem on their own. Personally I don't think anything short a national, single-payer health plan will, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. But regardless, it has to be accompanied by an increase in school seats and residencies.



Yeah I am pretty sure they could ease up on restricting supply without making us fight tooth and nail over available jobs. They ARE needed. It will just change the equation.... if you're one of those people who will only consider NYC, LA, or Chicago (like the girl at one of my interviews who referred to my state as a "flyover") then you might have more competition for a job, and if that scares you, go be a lawyer. Oh... wait.... no don't be a lawyer if you don't want to compete for jobs. Go be a..... I don't know. Point is, there is absolutely 0 danger of "flooding the market" to the point where jobs are hard to come by. By the way, "flooding the market" implies and overabundance, which will never, ever happen while the AMA and AAMC are still breathing.



No, I don't care. You made the point that there are enough students to fill existing residencies, and I'd like to mention that that is irrelevant. What is important is whether there are enough students, and residencies, to address the need for physicians. And I'm really not angry about the Caribbean pipeline. Maybe I should be, but I just don't care because I'm not stuck in one of them. I'm simply of the detached opinion that if they're so bad, it would be OK to see them go when US-based schools inevitably expand to train more doctors.



Give them a year of floundering under debt.... they'll take the primary care residency.



You might be right that schools can't expand without sacrificing some quality at the bottom..... oh well. A doctor who got a B in organic chemistry is better than no doctor at all. If for whatever reason you're worried about US standards keeping up with those of other countries, then turn to primary, secondary, and undergrad education to prepare a more competitive field of applicants. Maintaining this threshold that chokes off an adequate supply of doctors is not the answer. We have to let more people in, and some of them aren't going to be 4.0, 520+ all-stars. As long as they know when to defer to a specialist, they'll do.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811430_5

This is an interesting article that serves as a warning for those who sincerely believe that there is a shortage and that this shortage is quantifiable. It also touches upon some supply/demand stuff that explains one of the reasons why AAMC's shortage predictions keep getting smaller and smaller and is not very accurate

 

[TheZaLord]

This girl basically did 0 research about medical schools and blindly applied to a Caribbean school that wasn't even one of the "Big 4". She goes on to say how her school isn't even accredited in many states but she wants to practice in California one day.

She also doesn't realize how nearly impossible it will be for her to get a US residency.

I'm not sure if I should feel sorry for her or if she deserves it for being so ignorant.

That bummed me out. You have here a girl who seems very sweet, and is very cute- if she had taken the time to research and do her pre-requisites, assuming she did well in her communications degree, she probably would have made a great impression on her professors, etc...

I hope she defies the odds.