This makes a lot of sense

[urge]

---

Members do not see this ad.

[YOUTUBE]_jAGFTmAl3o[/YOUTUBE]

I think it should be the people who pay taxes only, but this is way better than the current system.

 

[yappy]

People like the guy in the video scare the s**t out of me.

 

[Stank811]

But those with millions in stocks vote for the person who says they will not tax dividends or capital gains just as the person who is getting paid by the govt votes for the person who will continue to send them a check. The problem is how easy it has become to do better with govt assistance financially compared to working. Govt assistance should not make you middle class...it should give you just enough to survive so those that are dependent on it want to get off of the govt plan.

 

[urge]

But those with millions in stocks vote for the person who says they will not tax dividends or capital gains

I'm ok with that.

The company already paid taxes on its earnings. With the current system the earnings get double taxed when they get distributed to the shareholders. There should be no taxes on dividends.

 

[yappy]

I just don't like the idea of silencing peoples votes because they're the working poor who take CHIP assistance or free lunch program etc. It strikes me as wrong. Is it not a power grab?

So the poor don't have any economic voice and now the rich & middle class are advocating taking away their vote? That doesn't seem wrong to you?

 

[periopdoc]

Wouldn't term limits help constrain abuse on both ends of the spectrum of this issue?

- pod

 

[urge]

I just don't like the idea of silencing peoples votes because they're the working poor who take CHIP assistance or free lunch program etc. It strikes me as wrong. Is it not a power grab?

So the poor don't have any economic voice and now the rich & middle class are advocating taking away their vote? That doesn't seem wrong to you?

No. It's like in a family. The one who brings the bacon calls the shots.

 

[urge]

Wouldn't term limits help constrain abuse on both ends of the spectrum of this issue?

- pod

No.

There is no term limit on reproduction of non productive people.

Once a critical mass of people in assistance is reached, there is no way out of the hole. They will just vote for more assistance.

 

[hoyden]

I just don't like the idea of silencing peoples votes because they're the working poor who take CHIP assistance or free lunch program etc. It strikes me as wrong. Is it not a power grab?

So the poor don't have any economic voice and now the rich & middle class are advocating taking away their vote? That doesn't seem wrong to you?

No, it is only logical and essential for self preservation as a nation

 

[deleted126335]

No, it is only logical and essential for self preservation as a nation

If we actually got something akin to what you are proposing, we would then start down a path that would most likely lead to violent revolution. Try reading some history.

Better to be on the losing side of nonviolent revolution.

 

[cchoukal]

So this would be a Plutocracy rather than a Democracy?

Does the person in the family who brings home the bacon really call the shots? Your wife can't withhold sex to get what she wants? Or just miserably sublimate her rage when you pull the "I bring home the bacon" card and make a decision she disagrees with? Is that the path to familial accord? And millions of disenfranchised poor can't buy guns and come after the wealthy oppressors?

I mean, I get the point: you don't want your taxes to support people you perceive to be lazy, or who made bad choices. Nobody does. I'm just not sure that disenfranchising an ever-increasing group of the poor will bring the kind of peaceful monied bliss you predict (see my point above about the guns).

 

[hoyden]

If we actually got something akin to what you are proposing, we would then start down a path that would most likely lead to violent revolution. Try reading some history.

Better to be on the losing side of nonviolent revolution.

Try your own advice about reading some history first, ok?

I lived through some of that history - on the very end of it.

Wealth redistribution does not work and i have yet to learn about the revolutions over voting rights among let's say convicts or mentally ill.

 

[countingdays]

Balanced Budget Amendment

Right now, dems can buy votes with entitlement programs while avoiding losing votes from the middle class by funding entitlements with borrowing instead of taxes. Deficit spending lets them have their cake and eat it too. Our children will pay some day, but they don't have the right to vote.

A balanced budget amendment would force people with the right to vote to pay for the welfare state, and they'd move right hard.

 

[BLADEMDA]

The constitutional restrictions on voting (as they were written) should have been replaced, not eliminated. I won't speculate on what criteria should be applied, but real standards need to be set.

Our founding fathers were brilliant. They took the selfishness in human nature and, through capitalism and private property, harnessed it so as to do the greatest public good for the greatest number of people. We should listen closely to everything they said. After all, this experiment we call the United States of America has produced the greatest country in the history of mankind.

 

[asdf4321]

The constitutional restrictions on voting (as they were written) should have been replaced, not eliminated. I won't speculate on what criteria should be applied, but real standards need to be set.

Our founding fathers were brilliant. They took the selfishness in human nature and, through capitalism and private property, harnessed it so as to do the greatest public good for the greatest number of people. We should listen closely to everything they said. After all, this experiment we call the United States of America has produced the greatest country in the history of mankind.

I hate to chime in, but your assertion that this is the greatest nation known to mankind is some serious "patriotic" and partisan bullcrap. Listening to everything the founders bring? Their disagreements formed our constitution, from slavery, to congressional representation, to the divide between a federal and state government! Hell, only a land owning minority were even allowed to vote! Do you seriously want to go back to that?

Sent from my Droid using SDN Mobile

 

[countingdays]

Limited power and separation of powers is what we need to get back to. Not having an oppressive federal government does not in any way equate to a return of slavery.

 

[deleted126335]

Maybe you'd like to bring back literacy tests and poll taxes?

I don't like the outcome of the election. But I would rather that we ended up looking like western europe than say France pre french revolution. Or Tsarist Russia pre Bolshevik revolution. The problem very simply is that The republicans fail to acknowledge (or do anything about) the corrosive effects that income and wealth distribution among fewer and fewer have. The lack of social mobility, especially for those that do everything right and follow the rules breeds resentment.

I don't have any good republican solutions to fix these problems. The democratic cures are worse than the disease and won't fix the problem. But I understand the resentment that is out there.

California's proposition 30 passed. That is a preview on what is to come. The reponse to the Ayn Rand devotees will be:
"Feel free to leave Mr. Gault, Just where are you going to go and what are you going to go when you get there?"

 

[dotcb]

http://samuel-warde.com/2012/11/cry-babies-and-sore-losers/

http://whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/

http://www.ericgarland.co/2012/11/0...republican-strategist-regarding-white-people/

 

[hoyden]

I hate to chime in, but your assertion that this is the greatest nation known to mankind is some serious "patriotic" and partisan bullcrap. Listening to everything the founders bring? Their disagreements formed our constitution, from slavery, to congressional representation, to the divide between a federal and state government! Hell, only a land owning minority were even allowed to vote! Do you seriously want to go back to that?

Sent from my Droid using SDN Mobile

and what is wrong with that?🙄

 

[hoyden]

Maybe you'd like to bring back literacy tests and poll taxes?

I don't like the outcome of the election. But I would rather that we ended up looking like western europe than say France pre french revolution. Or Tsarist Russia pre Bolshevik revolution.
The problem very simply is that

No, it is not. You clearly have no idea at all about the real revolution in 1917 and a distinction between revolution and bolshevik's coup

The republicans fail to acknowledge (or do anything about) the corrosive effects that income and wealth distribution among fewer and fewer have. The lack of social mobility, especially for those that do everything right]and follow the rules breeds resentment.

I am sorry, but this is a bunch of baloney. I am myself a direct example of clear upward mobility from the very bottom as an immigrant without clear status ( though not illegal) to a physician - maybe it was possible because I was relying ONLY on myself and had absolutely NO government assistance, so I never got lazy and uninterested? On the other hand I know plenty of people who have come to this country as "refugees" and since they were on government assistance from the very beginning they are still there and never moved even an inch - so not the lack of possibility but no need in working hard is a reason for not moving from one level to the other

 

[hoyden]

Limited power and separation of powers is what we need to get back to. Not having an oppressive federal government does not in any way equate to a return of slavery.

exactly

 

[asdf4321]

No, it is not. You clearly have no idea at all about the real revolution in 1917 and a distinction between revolution and bolshevik's coup


I am sorry, but this is a bunch of baloney. I am myself a direct example of clear upward mobility from the very bottom as an immigrant without clear status ( though not illegal) to a physician - maybe it was possible because I was relying ONLY on myself and had absolutely NO government assistance, so I never got lazy and uninterested? On the other hand I know plenty of people who have come to this country as "refugees" and since they were on government assistance from the very beginning they are still there and never moved even an inch - so not the lack of possibility but no need in working hard is a reason for not moving from one level to the other

As a poor immigrant from Russia, I can tell you that yes, upward mobility is possible. However, we are the exception, not the rule. Not everyone wants to become a doctor, so we can't use our education as proof that we are better than others.

Btw, your K-12 education was... you guessed it, Government assistance. So are the roads, laws, and regulation of medical education standards that allow you to claim that you are an expert in your chosen field. Anecdotal evidence means little...

Sent from my GT-P7510 using SDN Mobile

 

[deleted126335]

47 million people on food stamps.

Eligibility criteria:
http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm

Right or wrong the Republicans have been painted as not caring about these individuals. The initial post on this thread certainly gives credence to that statement.

The distribution of wealth and income has been going nowhere but up for the top few percent. At best Republicans have been paitned as not caring about this phenomenon. At worst, mostly responsible.

 

[hoyden]

As a poor immigrant from Russia, I can tell you that yes, upward mobility is possible. However, we are the exception, not the rule. Not everyone wants to become a doctor, so we can't use our education as proof that we are better than others.

Btw, your K-12 education was... you guessed it, Government assistance. So are the roads, laws, and regulation of medical education standards that allow you to claim that you are an expert in your chosen field. Anecdotal evidence means little...

Sent from my GT-P7510 using SDN Mobile

No, my education was NOT government assistance, my education was paid for by my parents, my grandparents and myself( and so were the bridges, the roads etc. - government does not pay for anything, people, paying taxes do) - I've worked the necessary 3 years in underserved area to pay it back ( you don' t even know what it is) . On the other hand my home education was actually useless - in order to be able to pass the USMLEs one has to start from the scratch , so that so-called education is questionable at best )))

BTW there is no free cheese except in the mouse trap - I am sure you know the proverb . And as usual, it is true - the ones who voted for obama in order to continue to get their "free" stuff and thought that it is going to be the wealthy to pay the price will find their mouse trap as the wealthy pass on their increased taxes to the envious "masses" by means not only of decreased jobs opportunities but decreased wages as well . How - I suppose that ian intelligent educated person can figure it out. Hint - I already did it . Yes , I am also a job creator at least for three different people.

 

[ED50]

No, my education was NOT government assistance, my education was paid for by my parents, my grandparents and myself( and so were the bridges, the roads etc. - government does not pay for anything, people, paying taxes do) - I've worked the necessary 3 years in underserved area to pay it back ( you don' t even know what it is) . On the other hand my home education was actually useless - in order to be able to pass the USMLEs one has to start from the scratch , so that so-called education is questionable at best )))

BTW there is no free cheese except in the mouse trap - I am sure you know the proverb . And as usual, it is true - the ones who voted for obama in order to continue to get their "free" stuff and thought that it is going to be the wealthy to pay the price will find their mouse trap as the wealthy pass on their increased taxes to the envious "masses" by means not only of decreased jobs opportunities but decreased wages as well . How - I suppose that ian intelligent educated person can figure it out. Hint - I already did it . Yes , I am also a job creator at least for three different people.

So, you had plenty of help then? Good for you. Some of us have to pay for our education 100% by ourselves and simply can not do it without assistance. Low interest government loans have been critical to me pursuing this dream. Something you seem to not be able to wrap your mind around is the fact that intelligent job creators and hard working Americans voted for a democrat. Personally, I believe when you take care of the most vulnerable members of society when they are down and out you strengthen the country as a whole. Your degree I reckon largely shielded you from the full effect of this recession, middle class America took a beating the last few years. People lost everything and had to start over. I felt Obama would be better then Romney in strengthening the middle class.

 

[Perrotfish]

I'm ok with that.

The company already paid taxes on its earnings. With the current system the earnings get double taxed when they get distributed to the shareholders. There should be no taxes on dividends.

Everyone's income was, at some point, someone else's earnings. My income was taxed at the corporate level when my employer got the money from their customer. Money which was, for that matter, already taxed at the personal income level when their customer's earned it. Money gets taxed when it changes hands, that's how most of our taxes work. So why is it 'double taxation' when you sit on your ass and earn money on a dubious financial product that you invested in but its fine that you get taxed three times as much on the money you earn helping the sick? Why would we want to tax working more than not working? Doesn't that seem to encourage the wrong thing?

 

[Perrotfish]

Wouldn't term limits help constrain abuse on both ends of the spectrum of this issue?

- pod

Lots of states have term limits on their congressmen, senators, and governors. Its hasn't fixed corruption, arguably it actually increases it. After all if you only have a few years in office you can promise the moon to voters and latch on to every fad to get your job, and then sell their state out from under them in exchange for your next job in the private sector. On the other hand if you plan to keep your congressional seat for life you need to avoid extremist fads that will be used against you when their stars fade, and deliver the promises you make to your electorate.

 

[countingdays]

Everyone's income was, at some point, someone else's earnings. My income was taxed at the corporate level when my employer got the money from their customer. Money which was, for that matter, already taxed at the personal income level when their customer's earned it. Money gets taxed when it changes hands, that's how most of our taxes work. So why is it 'double taxation' when you sit on your ass and earn money on a dubious financial product that you invested in but its fine that you get taxed three times as much on the money you earn helping the sick? Why would we want to tax working more than not working? Doesn't that seem to encourage the wrong thing?

It's tough to raise taxes on dividends and capital gains without discouraging savings and investment. Maybe people who receive greater than a certain percent of income as capital gains or stock options should be taxed at the AMT rate. It IS b s that you pay less tax if your business pays you with stock options than if you get paid in cash. It sucks that professional investors pay less tax than everyone else. You don't want a cure that's worse than the disease.

I'm largely a dividend investor and it wouldn't be worthwhile to invest at all after taxes and inflation if dividend tax rates went much higher.

"I'd tax all foreigners living abroad."

 

[Perrotfish]

It's tough to raise taxes on dividends and capital gains without discouraging savings and investment. Maybe people who receive greater than a certain percent of income as capital gains or stock options should be taxed at the AMT rate. It IS b s that you pay less tax if your business pays you with stock options than if you get paid in cash. It sucks that professional investors pay less tax than everyone else. You don't want a cure that's worse than the disease.

I'm largely a dividend investor and it wouldn't be worthwhile to invest at all after taxes and inflation if dividend tax rates went much higher.

"I'd tax all foreigners living abroad."

Really I think capital gains should just be income and count towards you income tax, or be its own progressive tax. It honestly makes much more sense as a progressive tax than income does. After all you want encourage the poorer half of America to save (low capital gains) and the richer half of America to spend and drive the economy (high capital gains tax). There is no income bracket where you want to discourage working (high income tax)

 

[countingdays]

Really I think capital gains should just be income and count towards you income tax, or be its own progressive tax. It honestly makes much more sense as a progressive tax than income does. After all you want encourage the poorer half of America to save (low capital gains) and the richer half of America to spend and drive the economy (high capital gains tax). There is no income bracket where you want to discourage working (high income tax)

Well taxing consumption makes the most sense. It captures income from all sources, and taxes imports as much as domestic production. It takes away a major source of government power/corruption though, giving tax breaks to their donors, so I don't see it happening.
A fair tax prebate keeps the system progressive.

 

[urge]

Everyone's income was, at some point, someone else's earnings. My income was taxed at the corporate level when my employer got the money from their customer.

Your employer pays taxes on all the money it gets in?

Is this true? Why is there threads on this site talking about creating corporations? People love to be double taxed?

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

 

[urge]

Really I think capital gains should just be income and count towards you income tax,

I don't think there should be any capital gains tax. If you have an asset it does not get any better in time.

Let's say a house. 100 yrs later it is still the same house (except for the fact that you had to pretty much replace everything costing you a fortune).

The increase in "value" is due to inflation of currency.

So, when you sell it, the tax man will take a chunk of your house for the only reason that the Fed decided to inflate the currency. As far as I'm concerned this is theft.