this year vs. last years match

[clipperfan]

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Can anyone from the inside rate this years applicant class to last years? I remember last year was very difficult? Is this year as competitive as last year?
thanks (i am very anxious...)

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Can anyone from the inside rate this years applicant class to last years? I remember last year was very difficult? Is this year as competitive as last year?
thanks (i am very anxious...)

At least from where I sit (community program in midwest), this year is MORE competitive than last.

Sorry if that does nothing for your anxiety... 🙁

 

[pingumd]

I am not on the "inside" but various chief residents on selection panels kept saying "man, I would not want to be applying this year, you guys are competitive". Also several program directors joked that they would not have matched into their own program this year. Also seems like an unusual number of MD/PhDs this year. However, it does seem like even the most competitive applicants set up more interviews than normal. I met some great candidates who went to 12-15 and I was thinking "if they are going to 12-15, I should be going to 20-25".

So maybe it looks like more applicants than normal because people applied to more places and schools may go further down the list to match.
oh well, we will see when the stats are out.

How this impacts me is that I will be ranking every program I interviewed at whereas in previous years I might have left a few off (or done fewer interviews).

 

[CaMD]

I matched last year so I have no insight into what most applicants looked like at that time, but this year, all the applicants I have interviewed had ridiculously strong applications.

 

[igottaquestion]

So is this a fluke (random variation) or a trend?

 

[NJWxMan]

It's a trend. A number of the residents graduating from my program this year are reporting starting salary offers in the low $200K! Plus, lifestyle.

 

[sideways]

no one can call it a trend without, well, a trend.

it still had a high % of IMGs matching (more than most, if not all, specialties) which i think is more an indicator of competitiveness (or lack thereof) than people's stories of "wow we had a lot of really solid applicants." if the latter is an honest indicator, it doesn't explain the former.

now maybe being choosy about location may not be as rosy, but to not match at all, a la ortho or something, i just don't see it (provided you have a coherent application strategy).

are any of you predicting radiology-level competitiveness on the horizon? if so, timeline? it just seems to me that psych is a unique field in that most med student types just don't gel with it.

 

[Sneezing]

It's coming. I think it will supplant EM and anesthesia. First, anesthesia reimbursement will have to plummet, then it will. EM will fall as a result of the decaying system putting way too much pressure on the ER. People will start have shorter shelf lives in that specialty and as the angry attendings flog their students, they'll get the message and realize shift work sucks. Psych will see itself emerge in 5 years as the new above average desired specialty.

 

[strangeglove]

It seems to me that psychiatry is becoming rather more competitive at the upper echelons, where there are a lot of highly qualified, academically focused applicants, many of whom are MD-PhD's. I think this has to do with the explosion of neuroscience research in psychiatry, and the realization among young physician-neuroscientists that neurology is pretty boring, from a neuroscience point of view.

I think there is also some increased competitiveness at lower tier programs, too. I think this has to do with the fact that many people who look for the "lifestyle" are finding psychiatry to pay quite well in terms of dollars per hour. There is also going to be an explosion of demand, as mental health parity comes into play and a large number of baby-boomer psychiatrists start to retire.

 

[whopper]

It's a trend. A number of the residents graduating from my program this year are reporting starting salary offers in the low $200K! Plus, lifestyle.

Ah, but factor in you're in NJ where the cost of living is high! Though it is also true that the state hospital system is offering about 200K/year plus great benefits.

I think this has to do with the explosion of neuroscience research in psychiatry, and the realization among young physician-neuroscientists that neurology is pretty boring, from a neuroscience point of view.

Possibly, but from last year's numbers, the # of applicants from US schools did not go up. The increased competitiveness is from a dramatic increase in the # of FMGs applying for psychiatry.

I don't know why the FMGs are being drawn to psychiatry. In most other countries where I see FMGs come from (several from the middle east, eastern Asia) mental health is not as high a priority as physical health. In fact it's often times shunned. Another thing I don't understand is psychiatry is the one profession where you must be very fluent in the language you practice, which if anything IMHO push non-native English speakers away from psychiatry.

In any case, it is what it is.

 

[psychotrope]

no one can call it a trend without, well, a trend.

it still had a high % of IMGs matching (more than most, if not all, specialties) which i think is more an indicator of competitiveness (or lack thereof) .

excellent post.....for starters, whether psych has 1 unfilled spot in the match in a month or 40 doesn't really speak to the "competitiveness" of psych. The best measure of competitiveness is still img%, the second best is still average step1 score....psych was still, by those standards, very noncompetitive last year........

5 years ago there was a debate between carrib grads(and mediocre carrib grads at that) whether psych was more or less competitive than family medicine. Now it's clear that psych is *more competitive* than family medicine, but thats a low standard.

As for programs that say it is "even more competitive" than last year, well I think part of that is that decent/mediocre US applicants are going on 12-14 interviews instead of 6-8 because they saw the # of unfilled spots last year......and programs *should* account for that. Meaning if they had to go down to 25 on their list last year to fill maybe this year it's more like 40......

I saw people at some programs that were considered "mid tier" university programs that had absolutely no intention of ranking them in their top 8. And with 2 of these programs I was at they only interviewed about 8-9 applicants per position. So if they're interviewing people who are interviewing at 4-5 "top" places, and lets be honest a good number of those people are going to match those places....well, they are going to have to go *far* down their match list to complete their slots......

And at the programs I interviewed at their were "less desirable"(for some) programs, it was still pretty much all img, with a few bad do candidates scattered in.........and trust me, that is *not* the case at any very competitive field for example. You do an interview for ent at at (pick your undesirable location/program) and you can damn be sure it won't be mostly imgs and bad do's.....

 

[NJWxMan]

Ah, but factor in you're in NJ where the cost of living is high! Though it is also true that the state hospital system is offering about 200K/year plus great benefits.



Possibly, but from last year's numbers, the # of applicants from US schools did not go up. The increased competitiveness is from a dramatic increase in the # of FMGs applying for psychiatry.

I don't know why the FMGs are being drawn to psychiatry. In most other countries where I see FMGs come from (several from the middle east, eastern Asia) mental health is not as high a priority as physical health. In fact it's often times shunned. Another thing I don't understand is psychiatry is the one profession where you must be very fluent in the language you practice, which if anything IMHO push non-native English speakers away from psychiatry.

In any case, it is what it is.

I was born and raised in Central NJ and moved out only four years ago. 🙄

 

[igottaquestion]

%IMG may be a good indicator of overall competitiveness, but throw an extra 30 AOAs or MD/PhDs into the applicant pool and things get a lot more competitive at the "top" programs (without much change in the %IMG stat).

 

[235750]

Wow, this thread is making me nauseous. I was getting my hopes up after the "how do I deal with the bias?" thread...

For the sake of me and every other med student who has a genuine interest in psychiatry (separate from the pay/lifestyle), I hope this trend at least tappers off a bit. Otherwise it seems in 3 years when I match, I think the candidate selection process will look more like this:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XQbBxIHbHQ[/YOUTUBE]

I think Spock would have a step score somewhere around 99 don't you think?

 

[trophyhusband]

I think Spock would have a step score somewhere around 99 don't you think?

Yeah, but I think Kirk would be the better interviewee. Less wooden, more empathetic... 😀

 

[notdeadyet]

For the sake of me and every other med student who has a genuine interest in psychiatry (separate from the pay/lifestyle), I hope this trend at least tappers off a bit.

I wouldn't get too worked up about it.

The number of programs folks applied to in Psych has been going up the last couple of years. The average Step 1 score has gone up too.

Personally, I think it's happening (and will keep happening) due mostly to two main factors:

1. Folks are more and more interested in the lifestyle specialties. This has been the case for years for things like the ROAD specialties. Then EM. And finally Psych. I don't think it will ever get as bad for Psych as the other lifestyle specialties because Psych is going to self-select for those who want to focus on mental illness rather than physical illness, which is a tough compromise for many.

2. Med schools were allowed to start increasing enrollments as of a few years ago, but residency programs have not increased sizes comparably. So we're seeing a squeeze in all the specialties. It's going to be more pronounced in the less competitive specialties.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

I think another factor may be that we are all now becoming aware of just how miserable it is to be a PCP. And how little time they really get to spend with their patients.

I know several of my classmates who ended up going psych (14/155) had originally wanted to be PCPs, and part of their decision was that factor.

 

[notdeadyet]

I think another factor may be that we are all now becoming aware of just how miserable it is to be a PCP. And how little time they really get to spend with their patients.

Or only recently did it really become miserable to become a PCP, largely because of how little time they're allocated for patients. Most PCP's I talk to say it was a very different field five and ten years ago. Much more satisfying for many.

 

[Sneezing]

I think another factor may be that we are all now becoming aware of just how miserable it is to be a PCP. And how little time they really get to spend with their patients.

I know several of my classmates who ended up going psych (14/155) had originally wanted to be PCPs, and part of their decision was that factor.

Correction: How most PCPs are practicing medicine. There are many ways to have the practice that makes money, delivers quality, and spends adequate time with patients. People just need to do more research before assuming they have to practice just like the miserable attending they just worked with.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Yeah, but I think Kirk would be the better interviewee. Less wooden, more empathetic... 😀

...and more likely to end up in a "boundaries violation" with his patient, or having to justify unusual treatment methods to a medical board, or willfully violating residency policies. No thank you. I've seen this guy's track record, and I can promise you--we'll be better off with Spock.

 

[trophyhusband]

...and more likely to end up in a "boundaries violation" with his patient, or having to justify unusual treatment methods to a medical board, or willfully violating residency policies. No thank you. I've seen this guy's track record, and I can promise you--we'll be better off with Spock.

Good call! I'd rather have Picard than either of them... I feel like such a dork right now I think I'll stop typing

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Good call! I'd rather have Picard than either of them... I feel like such a dork right now I think I'll stop typing

Eh--Picard would just rely on his psychologist for backup.

Of course that's better than Janeway--she just referred to a computer program!

 

[Sneezing]

Absolutely Spock! He can also mind meld with patients to detect malingering. He can even transfer his own experiences/memories which could be useful in providing insight. He can also do the Vulcan pinch thing if there is ever an aggressive patient. Who needs psychotherapy when you can just mind meld? He'll stick to evidence based medicine the most, because it would illogical to not use it!

 

[masterofmonkeys]

NDY, agree. Sneezing, I assume you're talking about concierge or retainer medicine. I agree. Turned a few of my classmates onto the idea.

 

[babel]

Absolutely Spock! He can also mind meld with patients to detect malingering. He can even transfer his own experiences/memories which could be useful in providing insight. He can also do the Vulcan pinch thing if there is ever an aggressive patient. Who needs psychotherapy when you can just mind meld? He'll stick to evidence based medicine the most, because it would illogical to not use it!

As a long time Spock fan, I completely agree. 😍

 

[Psychelle]

I <3 Spock, but I'd never want to be able to mind meld with some of our patients....

 

[sideways]

Someone has to step in here and stop this madness. Enough Star Trek.

 

[trophyhusband]

Someone has to step in here and stop this madness. Enough Star Trek.

Fine, how about Star Wars then?

Better psychiatrist: Yoda vs. Luke Skywalker

You gotta go with Yoda here right?

 

[sideways]

Fine, how about Star Wars then?

Better psychiatrist: Yoda vs. Luke Skywalker

You gotta go with Yoda here right?

Anything's better than Star Trek.

Yes, Yoda.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Anything's better than Star Trek.

Yes, Yoda.

The jedi were idiots. Any decent psychiatrist could have seen that Palapatine was pulling a fast one, and that Anakin had *major* issues that should've precluded him having that much access to the guy.

Obi Wan should've called Galactic Child Protection the minute he met Anakin.

 

[trophyhusband]

The jedi were idiots. Any decent psychiatrist could have seen that Palapatine was pulling a fast one, and that Anakin had *major* issues that should've precluded him having that much access to the guy.

Obi Wan should've called Galactic Child Protection the minute he met Anakin.

Gotta disagree here, you have to remember that in the original story Obi Wan met Anakin when he was already "a great fighter pilot." So that would put him around the same age as Luke when he started his training.

You can't blame the Jedi because George Lucas can't remember his own story line...

So sometimes you win some (Luke) and sometimes you lose some (Anakin/Vader)... and sometimes they're just really really greedy (Lucas).

Yes, I am offically the nerdiest person ever... *sigh*

 

[beezley]

All the nerdy references aside, reading this it makes me happy and whenever I hear the 'you aren't weird enough to be psychiatrist' I just think quietly myself that in 10 years lots of ridiculously busy PCPs and burnt out ER docs would rather be doing what I doing, for better hours and more money. Fascinating medicine, time with patients, good lifestyle, pretty hard to beat.

 

[Sneezing]

Out of pure speculation and arguments sake, I predict that this year will not have any unfilled spots after the match.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Out of pure speculation and arguments sake, I predict that this year will not have any unfilled spots after the match.

I certainly would not bet any money against that.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Guess Spock better hope for a prematch, being as how he's an IMG--interplanetary medical grad...

 

[Sneezing]

So he didn't go to the Universe Services University of the Health Sciences (USUHS) at Star Fleet?

 

[billypilgrim37]

Spock did not graduate from medical school. I guess he's just going to have to move to Oregon, where anybody with a graduate degree can now prescribe Romulean Klonopin.

 

[whopper]

Gotta disagree here, you have to remember that in the original story Obi Wan met Anakin when he was already "a great fighter pilot."

The novels (which I haven't read, but I read the synopsis and have too many geek friends telling me all about them) detailed that Palpatine used the Force and exploited an imbalance in it to achieve his success.

The novels also pointed out several other issues such as the Jedi were losing their ability to see into the future and several other abilities because of the imbalance in the Force.

All in all, the novels actually had a lot of great backstories that would've made the prequels better, but these backstories were not in the movies.

I just think quietly myself that in 10 years lots of ridiculously busy PCPs and burnt out ER docs would rather be doing what I doing, for better hours and more money.

I agree. I also did not like how in IM and several other medical fields, the tradition of pimping, humiliating and demeaning the residents and medstudents went on and on. It did not seem as much in psychiatry (at least for me), IMHO because psychiatrists would just look like idiots showing such easily identifiable traits of a personality disorder.

I went into medical school specifically to be a psychiatrist. I was a psychology major. The more I learned about medicine, the more I respected it. The more, however, I did IM, the more I couldn't stand the blisters on my feet, the scramble for charts (hours a day), etc.