Thomas is coming, start your questions!

[fuegorama]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Yep it's that time of year when the AOA sends out the prez. to meet all the new donors. President Thomas will sonn be coming to a school in your locale...Maybe Yours!!

Last year I was privy to get a close up seat when wizard Beehler showed up. 👎
He was treated with kid gloves during question/answer time. This year the AOA needs some vibe of the dissent we see spraying these forums.

Some repetitive questioning on the topics that bug us most might just get some attention. (BTW questioning is more effective when respectful and non-shrill)
I'll start:
1. Why did you withdraw the AOA from the combined match?
2. With the continued opening of new "branch" schools, do you believe there is a bottom to the barrel? In other words, as the applicant pool shrinks, will Osteo. schools take anyone with a pulse and a wallet?
3. Along these same lines, why is the AOA incapable of pulling accreditation on these new campuses? The LCME doesn't have this problem. If you can't do it, can we ask them?
4. Would you consider a move to allow DOs to choose b/t COMLEX and USMLE + an OMM component.
5. What was the price tag of the "See a DO on TV" campaign?
This should be quickly followed by- What is the total AOA research budget dedicated to the centers planned for New England and Texas?

Alright, there's a start. Let's hear some more.

 

[mrm1682]

your questions seem a little harsh for a public Q/A session. i think they are totally legit "ideas" but you should consider wording it a little better. on the other hand, asking him in that manner could also show our disgust in the AOA.

a question i would ask is what the AOA will do to open more residency programs so that they don't loose students every year to the ACGME programs because there aren't enough slots available for the graduating DOs.

 

[jhug]

what is the AOA doing to update the antiquated laws requiring a DO to do an AOA internship for lisencure the famous 5 states?

What is the process of developing policy regarding an issue facing the AOA/osteopathic physicians as a whole?
(followed by: why are you to unprofessional to actually follow the due process regarding the joint match, but instead bypass all legitimacy and send out a letter you and your chummies conjure up?)

Why is leadership within the AOA not elected as is done in every other governing body of remote importance in this nation? Do you feel that this prevents the AOA from developing new ideas as to how to better serve our profession?

How do we stop the malignant growth of DO schools?
What active steps is the AOA taking to remedy the grossly inadequate and imbalanced geographic distribution of post graduate opportunities?

 

[Doc 2b]

what is the AOA doing to update the antiquated laws requiring a DO to do an AOA internship for lisencure the famous 5 states?


Why is leadership within the AOA not elected as is done in every other governing body of remote importance in this nation? Do you feel that this prevents the AOA from developing new ideas as to how to better serve our profession?

How do we stop the malignant growth of DO schools?
What active steps is the AOA taking to remedy the grossly inadequate and imbalanced geographic distribution of post graduate opportunities?

AMEN Reverend!

 

[delicatefade]

Those are state laws that I don't think the AOA can realistically have much influence over. I do agree that they should be abolished, however.

 

[jhug]

Those are state laws that I don't think the AOA can realistically have much influence over

that's what the last guy said...but isn't the AOA a political body that is funded to influence legislators to be physician friendly in their lawmaking?
I think the AOA wants to keep those 5 states around as something to hang over our heads...how many times have you heard "you better do an AOA-approved internship or else..."?

Doc2b...i am no stranger to sarcasm 🙂🙂
though i will admit i do need to work on my tone🙂

 

[Robz]

I unfortunatly missed my chance to meet him and talk to him. He came to NSUCOM last November and I missed that day (it was a monday) cause I was flying back from my Thanksgiving vacation. I had a few of those exact questions that i was going to ask him. I have asked many people (including my dean) about the multiple school issues and no residencies to fill and I got a we'll figure it out when we get there answer....either that or no answer at all.

 

[JohnDO]

your questions seem a little harsh for a public Q/A session.

I agree they are harsh, but I think they need to be held accountable. You're not likely to get a response except in a situation in which they must respond.

chalk me up for asking jhug's question, "How do we stop the malignant growth of DO schools? What active steps is the AOA taking to remedy the grossly inadequate and imbalanced geographic distribution of post graduate opportunities?"

It goes unstated, but we really need some people with some balls at each school to actually ask these questions. Perhaps if they heard these questions at more than a few schools, they'd realize that there is a general consensus on these issues.

 

[Robz]

oh I believe he needs the questions in an open forum. They may seem harsh but they are the reality. If you look at it there were 3 schools opened or opening this last fall and this coming fall. Minimal..75 new DO's a pop...for about 225 new physicians at the least. Mark this with more AOA residencies closing (ala TCOM) and where does that leave the state of medical care? Hmmmm. Sounds to me like there is a significant problem there and by all means should be addressed by the AOA president.

 

[TCOM-2006]

Yep it's that time of year when the AOA sends out the prez. to meet all the new donors. President Thomas will sonn be coming to a school in your locale...Maybe Yours!!

Last year I was privy to get a close up seat when wizard Beehler showed up. 👎
He was treated with kid gloves during question/answer time. This year the AOA needs some vibe of the dissent we see spraying these forums.

Some repetitive questioning on the topics that bug us most might just get some attention. (BTW questioning is more effective when respectful and non-shrill)
I'll start:
1. Why did you withdraw the AOA from the combined match?
2. With the continued opening of new "branch" schools, do you believe there is a bottom to the barrel? In other words, as the applicant pool shrinks, will Osteo. schools take anyone with a pulse and a wallet?
3. Along these same lines, why is the AOA incapable of pulling accreditation on these new campuses? The LCME doesn't have this problem. If you can't do it, can we ask them?
4. Would you consider a move to allow DOs to choose b/t COMLEX and USMLE + an OMM component.
5. What was the price tag of the "See a DO on TV" campaign?
This should be quickly followed by- What is the total AOA research budget dedicated to the centers planned for New England and Texas?

Alright, there's a start. Let's hear some more.

--i really want to thank fueg. for starting this thread - questioning our leadership is both our right and responsibility as members. brainstormingabout questions will allow us to identify important issues. however, as has been said, it's very important that anyone be respectful when asking the question. you can craft the question in a respectful way that still addresses legitimate concerns on a sensitive/controversial topic. it's also important to 'do your homework' before asking questions so you don't state something factually incorrect that he can easily dismiss as incorrect.

--regarding some of the questions stated above - i would consider changing the way that some of them are worded.

for question #1: Dr. Thomas did not withdraw the AOA from the combined match. he did send a letter to the AMA, asking the AMA not to adopt a resolution which supported the combined match. as i have stated on a previous thread - this resolution was withdrawn from the author (an osteopathic student who supports the combined match) before any knowledge of Dr. Thomas' letter for reasons that i have explained. neither the AMA or AOA house of delegates (the policy making body of the organizations) has voted on this issue - so it's really not accurate to say that the AOA or AMA is for or against this issue, since they have not had a chance to fully study, and vote on it. here's the link to my previous explination:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=166249&page=6

--i would instead phrase the question like:

"Dr. Thomas: Thanks for being here today. Only 49% of DO graduates matched with an AOA residency in 2003 - the large majority of those that did not matched with an ACGME residency. There are many DO students who would like to consider AOA programs, but decide to apply only to ACGME programs because there is more choices in georgaphic locations and specialties. Therefore - many students support a combined residency match as a means to allow increased student choice while enlarging the applicant pool for DO programs. Where does the AOA stand on this issue?"

--if he says that the AOA opposes this, then follow up with:

"Dr. Thomas, i know that the AOA-HOD referred a resolution supporting a combined match for study, but has not voted on it yet. What body of the AOA has decided that the AOA is against it? Can you give me the policy language?"

--and so on... you have to know your facts.

--i have some comments on other questions posted, but will have to follow up with another message later. keep checking this website - as i will soon post some information re: the combined match (i'm doing all the research - so you don't have to - and i'll list all references).

thanks, and keep up the good discussion.

There are many Osteopathic students that support a combined residency match program, because they feel like it will give opportunity to apply to AOA programs that would not have otherwise done so.

 

[TCOM-2006]

by the way - when someone from any DO school knows *when* Dr. T will be visiting - please send out that date ... please attend the meeting and consider asking some of these questions on important topics ... and then please report responses to this thread so we can keep track of all this. and again - please be respectful in all your posts (even if you are frustrated), 🙂

 

[fuegorama]

Thanks for the critique TCOM. Your point is spot-on correct. Having a foundation for this questioning is essential. I appreciate your research efforts.

The T-dawg will be at UNECOM on Feb. 10. I'm hoping our peeps will not sit there like so many well-meaning, chronically cold, nice folks. The Q&A will hopefully be respectful, and informative. But this will only happen if we ask those questions.
F

 

[delicatefade]

I'm not saying that the osteopathic internship shouldn't be abolished, and I'm not saying that the AOA has no influence over state legislatures. I just think that, in this case, the AOA may not have enough influence to get things changed even if they wanted to. Imagine the AOA goes to West Virginia and starts lobbying the state legislature to abolish the osteopathic internship. Well, some of these states have good incentive to keep the osteopathic internship alive. By having DO's complete an osteopathic internship in one of their institutions, statistically they are more likely to continue on to residency and practice in that state. And the state keeps a supply of physicians who have historically been great primary care providers, especially in underserved areas.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

jhug,

Do you know if they'll be coming to AZCOM this year?

When Beehler and Thomas came to AZCOM last year, they were pretty callous about several issues. Several questions were fairly contentiously handled too. Later on, at a national conference, students from other schools had heard about "what happened at AZCOM". They asked me about it (I didn't bring it up), and obviously they had been given a somewhat biased account of what actually happened. Moral of the story: if you stand up for yourselves with these guys, you'll be a thorn in their side to the point that they can't gloss over you as a single disgruntled student.

If they come to AZCOM this year jhug, we need to have several people ready with several of these questions. And we need the people asking to not allow platitudes and non-answers to suffice. Of course we need to be respectful, but we need to stand our ground too.

Also, it may be interesting to present them publicly with our petitions about the combined match and a freeze on new DO schools. It needs to be public, as I stringly suspect that we'll need to somewhat embarrass these guys if we're going to even get them to realize how students really feel.

 

[Azmedstudent]

👍 I agree.

 

[Gibby Haynes]

I'm not saying that the osteopathic internship shouldn't be abolished, and I'm not saying that the AOA has no influence over state legislatures. I just think that, in this case, the AOA may not have enough influence to get things changed even if they wanted to. Imagine the AOA goes to West Virginia and starts lobbying the state legislature to abolish the osteopathic internship. Well, some of these states have good incentive to keep the osteopathic internship alive. By having DO's complete an osteopathic internship in one of their institutions, statistically they are more likely to continue on to residency and practice in that state. And the state keeps a supply of physicians who have historically been great primary care providers, especially in underserved areas.

I have to disagree with this. First off, to my knowledge, West Virginia is not a state where you have compete an AOA approved intership. The states that do require it are MI, OH, OK, PA, and FL , unless there has been a change in the laws in WV that I'm not aware of. Secondly, those states requiring a AOA approved internship are prohibiting DOs to practice there that did not meet this requirement. If what TCOM2006 states is correct, you are potentially loosing half of the profession each year and this number will only increase with new DO schools popping up like Starbucks. The point is, that this is an outdated policy dictated by only five states. Imagine if every state had this policy and everyone had to complete an AOA internship. How would the AOA in its infinite wisdom provide every graduate an AOA internship?! The profession would sink and you would have unemployed DOs b/c the AOA isn't smart enough to realize that in order to provide "appropriate" training you can't just open new schools and say "good luck" without providing any post graduate training. 😡

 

[delicatefade]

I have to disagree with this. First off, to my knowledge, West Virginia is not a state where you have compete an AOA approved intership. The states that do require it are MI, OH, OK, PA, and FL , unless there has been a change in the laws in WV that I'm not aware of. Secondly, those states requiring a AOA approved internship are prohibiting DOs to practice there that did not meet this requirement. If what TCOM2006 states is correct, you are potentially loosing half of the profession each year and this number will only increase with new DO schools popping up like Starbucks. The point is, that this is an outdated policy dictated by only five states. Imagine if every state had this policy and everyone had to complete an AOA internship. How would the AOA in its infinite wisdom provide every graduate an AOA internship?! The profession would sink and you would have unemployed DOs b/c the AOA isn't smart enough to realize that in order to provide "appropriate" training you can't just open new schools and say "good luck" without providing any post graduate training. 😡

Check your sources. WV is an AOA internship requiring state. OH is not. As far as your other points, it would certainly become a problem if all 50 states started requiring an osteopathic internship but that isn't going to happen and the AOA is not pushing for that as far as I know. All I'm saying is that there may actually be some incentive for the 5 states to keep the laws the way they are. That has nothing to do with the AOA and whether or not they are holding this over our heads, and it certainly has nothing to do with the proliferation of DO schools (which I agree is a problem).

 

[Shinken]

I honestly don't know what the big deal is with Dr. Thomas visiting schools and answering questions. It's like Barbara Walters interviewing Michael Jackson. What do you expect? Do you expect M.J. to say "Yes, Barbara! I'm a pedophile! I molested all those children! There, I've said it!"

You're going to ask Dr. Thomas a series of questions, and he'll answer them. The answers are not going to be what you want to hear.

It's not like Dr. Thomas is going to say, "Yes, the AOA doesn't care about its students. As a matter of fact, we couldn't care less how many schools open. All we want is your membership money. Thank you. Any other questions? Yes, you in the back...OK, good question. As a matter of fact, we spent way too much money on that letter campaign, but that was the best we could do. Any other questions? Yes, the young lady over there..."

His answers will not satisfy you, especially if you already go into it with a particular "they-against-us" mindset. Don't expect the secrets of the DO Universe to be revealed to you.

Also, when you talk to Dr. Thomas, don't even bother comparing the DO world with the MD world, because that will not fly at all. Dr. Thomas will not agree that changing the degree to MDO is a good idea, DO schools and residencies have nothing to do with the LCME or the ACGME, and the AMA and the AOA are two completely separate entities.

I'm just preparing you for meeting with him. It will be like talking to Condy Rice about Iraq. You're going to get the political spin, not the honest truth.

 

[jhug]

new DO schools popping up like Starbucks

Shinken...i don't doubt what you say at all...Thomas will give answers rivaling the ignorancy of beuler...or whatever his name was...
do i expect the "the secrets of the DO Universe to be revealed to me"???
no, because more and more i'm learning that there aren't any!!! We have an awesome skill that is of great benefit to our patients...that for some reason the leaders of our profession want to keep hidden in the 1800's (that's a whole other discussion)

but there is a look in people's eye...the look of realizing that others finally understand you are a complete fool who wouldn't know how to run an organization if it was handed to you...there is a look of recognizing that the people you are addressing REALLY DO THINK FOR THEMSELVES, and don't buy all this "just trust me it will work out...just be true to your profession" crap...that's the moment in which he realizes that we will demand more than mediocracy...no...more than utter failure from our leadership...
that is why i want to, professionally and respectfully, ask him what he is doing as the head of my profession.

I take great respect and honor in knowing I will be a DO...and that very respect i give to my degree is what drives me to see it improve...and as long as we have this type of leadership in the AOA, i fear for the integrity of our profession...


now i'm getting off my soap-box🙂🙂🙂

 

[Docgeorge]

How do they elect the president of the AOA?

 

[Docgeorge]

Is'nt it ironic that the only reason that DO are growing so fast is due to the AMA and the ACGME for allowing us to participate in their GME?

 

[Elysium]

Just wondering why everyone is so categorically against new DO schools opening. Is it just because of the lack of residency positions that are available in the AOA world? I happen to go to one of these Starbucks schools and it kinda gets lame to hear everyone clowning on our school(s) all the time. It sure as hell doesn't feel like I'm at a diploma mill, especially when we're all getting our ass kicked 24/7. Our OMM faculty is top notch, so that can't be the problem. Why all the hate? I don't understand how having more DOs in this country is such a bad thing. Also, as far as having a wallet and a pulse is concerned, I can assure you that the stats of the class we're currently accepting are around the national average for all DO schools. People with 19's on the MCAT don't get accepted. Neither do people with below 3.0 GPAs. I think it's crap that you guys choose to turn on each other instead of working for the greater good of our profession.

 

[fuegorama]

Just wondering why everyone is so categorically against new DO schools opening. Is it just because of the lack of residency positions that are available in the AOA world?

"Just because??" We have a growing number of DO graduates and a shrinking number of post-grad training programs. This situation places us at the mercy of the ACGME.
The AOA's piss-poor management of PG sites has left physician training programs with a pretty crummy legacy. Crappy locations, low patient census, and near non-existent didactics do not make for a high grade applicant pool. (this is a generalization, there are several AOA/combined programs that provide good training)
Couple this with a growing number of ACGME programs giving DOs the Heisman, and you have a worrisome situation. In my hoped-for field, my top three programs publicly say they will not take DOs. This is not discrimination, and I cannot blame them.
Their web sites will simply say "only applicants from LCME schools accepted".

If all of us had a giant huff-party, and decided to collectively go AOA, there would not be enough slots for us. When the glue ran out and we turned to the ACGME, they could easily shut the door. We then would be a bunch of highly educated, badly hung-over, untrained, unemployed, sad people.
There should not be another school opened until enough quality spots are available to all of us who want to stay DO.

I happen to go to one of these Starbucks schools and it kinda gets lame to hear everyone clowning on our school(s) all the time. It sure as hell doesn't feel like I'm at a diploma mill, especially when we're all getting our ass kicked 24/7. Our OMM faculty is top notch, so that can't be the problem. Why all the hate? I don't understand how having more DOs in this country is such a bad thing. Also, as far as having a wallet and a pulse is concerned, I can assure you that the stats of the class we're currently accepting are around the national average for all DO schools. People with 19's on the MCAT don't get accepted. Neither do people with below 3.0 GPAs. I think it's crap that you guys choose to turn on each other instead of working for the greater good of our profession.

Elysium-
I apologize for insulting you or your school in my earlier post. You should be proud of your acceptance and I sincerely hope you get the education you are paying for. My feelings stem from observations of my own program and the osteo. crowd in general.

I feel that I am at one of the better medical schools in the country. I didn't say DO school. I said medical school. I have had one great lecture after another. We have an anatomy program that is second only to Columbia in number of scheduled hours and faculty time. Our OMM department is headed by a leader in the field and author of the most quoted article in this forum. (the use of OMM for AOM) We have research initiatives that involve every department hosted by the program. There is a biomedical research center slated for construction in the near future. My education is expensive, but I feel that I am getting the foundation I will need to progress through residency into a competent physician.

With that said, as I start my board prep. I realize there are ragged, gaping holes in my understanding of some fundamentals. I have not been prepared for some of what will be required for the USMLE (another topic altogether).

My school has a three decade history. We have good relationships with surrounding hospitals and clinics. We have faculty that are dedicated to the school and its location. Occasionally, things still do not flow smoothly.

How can a new school, without this history put it together?
Is there a need for more DOS at this time?
If a body of inspectors, a la Flexner, examined every DO school tomorrow, would they be allowed to continue functioning?
The applicant pool has been shrinking for the past three years. There has been a huge drop in applicants since 1995. Reported acceptance stats have declined. Last year saw one of the lowest national COMLEX I scores on record. Is this due to the difficulty of the test, or is it a weakness in the pool?
I have classmates and colleagues at other programs who were accepted with poor stats, but the "right attitude" who now profess that they were not prepared for the rigors of medical education. They are now stuck with debt, struggling to keep their heads out of the water, and caught in the "I hate what I'll be doing-but this is my career world". The MCAT and GPA requirements are there for a reason.
I hope you are correct about the stats at your school. I KNOW from my own interview experiences the desperation for apps at some schools. (E.G. being offered a slot while in the interview ) Hopefully your program has a more thorough decision process.
If these new schools do not, we will be seeing a crop of DOs unable to meet the demands of medicine. As a minority, we are dependent on the accumen and skill of our fellow DOs. The opinion of the public is made one interaction at a time.
Recall the jab-"An MD makes a mistake...he's human. A DO makes a mistake...he's a DO".

My .02.

 

[JohnDO]

Which is why I say ask away. I forgot to mention this earlier but phrase the questions so that they demand an answer. Also mention some data in them if you can, so that he can spin the answer less. For example, if you say something about the match, he'll likely quote the bit about the unfilled osteopathic slot, while neglecting the fact that many of these are unfunded.

 

[EMTLizzy]

How can a new school, without this history put it together?
Is there a need for more DOS at this time?

My .02.

I didn't want to repost the whole thing, but that was an awesome answer!

 

[jhug]

Elysium...i too would never want to offend you or a classmate at a new DO school...my sincere apologies if i have.

an example that i think is applicable is in the market...Krispy Kreme makes a great donut...they cought on, people were interested, upper management decided to take an aggresive expansion approach...Krispy Kreme stock soared to over $50/share. They soon realized that there was no way to A) sustain the malignant growth that had already taken place and B) they were now unable to sustain any new growth in areas where they may have had success. KK stock now trades at just over $8/share...

My fear is that i see that kind of poor management in the AOA...expanisve growth without any type of plan/structure to sustain it. If for whatever reason the ACGME decided to no longer accept DO's, what would the solution be to the 600 and exponentially growing DO graduates? Almost 200K in debt with a doctorate and UNEMPLOYED! That to me is a total failure on the part of the AOA and, as is done in the buisness world, those who put our profession in this foolish, totally avoidable hole should step aside...

i wouldn't want to be a part of a profession who's stock value is next to nothing...

 

[Docgeorge]

Who wants to write a resolution stateing that we should change the current way AOA presidents are elected? The way I understad it is that we need to present this to our state chapter which if adopted would then be presented at the national meeting.

Any takers? TCOM-2006?

 

[jhug]

docG,
i sent you a PM...

 

[Docgeorge]

Jhug I pm'ed you back.

The hardest part about this is that if you want to make a change you must stay and work in the system, but if you dont tote the party line you are pretty much excluded from attaining any position where you might be able to actually effect a change.

 

[Docgeorge]

Hey jhug you got that reolution for me?

 

[jhug]

DocG...
i'm sorry, i never got your pm and this is the first i've looked on here for a while...i'll pm it to you today.

 

[TCOM-2006]

Who wants to write a resolution stateing that we should change the current way AOA presidents are elected? The way I understad it is that we need to present this to our state chapter which if adopted would then be presented at the national meeting.

Any takers? TCOM-2006?

--there are a lot of good topics raised on this thread - let me start by replying to this one, since my name was called. as you know - i have posted on this issue before (from: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=151601 - see post #6):

"i am also, quite frankly, concerned with the potential for an organization that falls away from the majority DO view because the leadership of the organization is not necessarily elected in a fair and democratic way.

for example - it's my understanding that there has not been a contested race for president-elect of the AOA since the 80s, and the single candidate is actually decided upon in closed-door meetings that students are not invited to attend. The AOA president has a great deal of authority on who get appointed to committees, bureaus, etc - which do a great deal of work of the organization.

Open and contested races are good for our organization because they allows our "representative democracy" (ie - the AOA house of delegates, which includes student representation) to make a choice that is fitting with the mainstream DO view and it requires a serious debate about this important issues that we really care about. I would really like to hear the perspective of the existing leadership on this issue."

--now - what i have posted in my understanding based on conversations with a credible source that i have no reason to doubt, but it's not the absolute truth - so if someone knows the current situation better, please post.

--i would support an effort to ensure that the AOA leadership is more sincerely representative of its members (not just one extreme or the other). so, my suggestion are the following:

1--research current policy - you can find current AOA bylaws at:
http://do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm?PageID=aoa_main

2--try to get a better understanding of the election practices (talk with your DO leadership, student leadership, call the AOA member services, and ask them if they have data from the number of candidates for past elections)

3--find some sources (ie - check robert's rules) that discuss fair practices in elections, and representative organizations

4--look into how other organizations hold elections (ie - compare to AMA, osteopathic specialty societies, etc). from my direct observation and experience - the AMA has had *contested* president-elect and BOT races for at least the past 2 years, and the HOD directly elects many of the council members.

5--try and find out if there is any change on the horizon (it's my understanding that more progressive AOA presidents are aprox 5 years away... yes, this implies that the president-elect of the AOA is pretty much known for the next few years).

6--evaluate what policy changes could be made to address this issue.

7--develop a resolution out of this for submission to the HOD

if you are serious about wanting to make a difference (and i hope you are), i would be happy to consult on the project as needed.

 

[TCOM-2006]

Check your sources. WV is an AOA internship requiring state. OH is not. As far as your other points, it would certainly become a problem if all 50 states started requiring an osteopathic internship but that isn't going to happen and the AOA is not pushing for that as far as I know. All I'm saying is that there may actually be some incentive for the 5 states to keep the laws the way they are. That has nothing to do with the AOA and whether or not they are holding this over our heads, and it certainly has nothing to do with the proliferation of DO schools (which I agree is a problem).

good discussion on this important issue: requiring an AOA approved internship for licensure in 5 states. i would suggest the following (and i include myself here):

1> learn about the licensure process, and the overall purpose of licensure. see:
http://www.fsmb.org/ (see > fsmb facts, then > about us)
http://www.nbome.org/
http://www.nbme.org/

2> ask yourself the question: is the requirement that these 5 states have consistent with the purpose of licensure? some might suggest that the key purpose of licensure is to protect the public. does completion of an osteopathic internship by DO graduates mean that the public is better protected? read and answer for yourself.

3> see if you can find the rationale for this (check the magic 5's state osteopathic boards - find contact info from the fsmb website > click "state medical board info", then click "board directory".

4> check AOA policy for any position on this issue:
http://do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm?PageID=aoa_main
> click position papers

5> consider the option of writing a resolution (either to the AOAHOD or to the osteopathic state society).

 

[Malph]

Hello Everyone,

I just want to drop a note here to get ALL D.O. Students to visit the current MATCH Survey thread--we only have a total of ten days from 4 feb 2005 to collect everyone's input.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/sho...181#post2261181

We all talk about change on these threads, and now you have a chance to actually affect it. Please visit the thread and if you have not already done so, take 2 minutes and fill out the small 9 question survey. This is literally 2 min that can change the future of how we distribute students to programs.

Thanks so much for your time and I love reading the threads here on SDN.

 

[jonb12997]

so yeah, Thomas just came to our school today (UNE)... did anyone else find that he completely side stepped basically all the "real" questions? He seemed like he really didn't know very much about what was going on. That he was just saying what the AOA tells him to say? The big issues to us (combined match, new schools, etc.) were seemed to be answered by something like: "here's what the AOA thinks on the issue, too bad if you don't agree"... I might be wrong, but I was pretty POed after it. 🙁 here's another question, to be active in the AOA (become elected to an office) don't you have to do an AOA residency? I guess that's going to eliminate a portion of the D.O.s from getting really involved... oh well

 

[jgrady]

Dr. Thomas is supposed to come to AZCOM in March; I have heard the 9th and 16th discussed.

As for questions, I have a couple to add:

1) When are DO residency programs going to be forced to only take as many interns as they have residency spots funded? I was EXTREMELY frustrated to learn recently that DO residencies will take, say, 7 interns and have them compete for 5 PGY-2 residencies. This isn't allowed in AMA programs. You shouldn't have to compete for residencies after the match, during PGY-1.

2) When is the AOA going to be more proactive getting AMA programs certified for AOA residencies? The AOA certainly isn't going to open new hospitals, so our best shot is piggy-backing allo residencies, especially in the short-term.

3) What is the AOA doing to establish programs in parts of the country without any DO residencies? The lack of West Coast programs is ridiculous. We've lost more slots than we've gained in the last year and now, with two hospital closures in the last year, we have nothing in the six or so states in the Northwest.

I really hadn't expected to be so pleased with a DO medical school and so disappointed in our national organization in my first year.

 

[fuegorama]

Well our big day just came and went. We got smacked with some snow so attendance was sub-par for the amount of vitriol that was ready to be spilled.
On the plus side, the folks that attended were informed, interested, and respectful. Thomas was clear that he ahs "been attacked" at most schools during this tour. I don't think that happened yesterday.

On to the report-
1) Thomas deserves a great deal more respect than his predecessor. Beehler was not only insulting, resistant and rude. He was also a dolt. I remember leaving the hall last year embarassed to be associated at all with this organization.

2)Thomas was forthright in his role as he sees it. "My job in this role is to uphold the policies of the AOA". He consistently deferred to the general counsel as the decision making body. He also was pretty good at professing the "AOA line". Which includes-No combined match, no way to stop new schools, no need to open AOA residencies to MDs, we are not medical students but OSTEOPATHIC medical students 🙄 , and the AMA is keepin' us down.

3) From earlier posts in this thread you can probably put it together that this doesn't sit well with me. T-dawg was very firm that no one can deliver a convincing argument for combining the match. When given examples including; those of us who will skip all AOA slots if not combined, the loss of osteo. slots when these go unfilled, the slow pressure of program closure to DOs in semi-competitive specialties (EM), and the positive aspects of selective pressure for quality positions he still said there was nothing to convince him.
BTW- the group to ping on is the interns/residents group who derailed the combined match motion last year

4) New schools. I learned an amazing thing yesterday. It takes $150 million dollars to open a new LCME (MD) school. It takes $5 million dollars to open a DO mill 😱 😱 😱 .
You can't sponsor a Nascar team for 5 large!! The faculty and staff salaries alone at my school exceed $5 million. That doesn't include the lights, building, maintenance, supplies, visiting lectures etc.
This is the barn door that is allowing the metasteses of new programs/branches. What needs to happen now. I MEAN RIGHT NOW!!! is for us to call up our state osteo. boards and demand an increase in the "seed money" requirement for new programs. When asked what accounts for the difference in costs, Thomas said "well the allopaths like to build their schools around big medical centers with lots of paid clinical faculty". 😡 Isn't this what medical schools should be built on?
I think the AOA is open to suggestions of an increase in required funding. George himself suggested maybe the amount should be increased to 20, 30 or 40 million dollars. I agree. (in the meantime if I spend more time on SDN and less time on board study, I might be opening 'Fueg's school of osteopathy and carburator repair)

5) The OMS thing. Who cares?? I am a medical student. I am a future DO. A nametag is not going to demonstrate any difference in my ability. I want my clinical performance to demonstrate the "DO difference" if there is any.
Thomas repeatedly said "you cannot get rid of the DO behind your name". It looks like Dr. Thomas did on the September '04 cover of "the DO". 'Nuf said.

The takeaway-
Get with your student reps. Find out who is on your state board and get to know them. Attend these talks and make your concerns known.
Is it frustrating to see you are not being represented? Yes. However, change comes gradually. When enough of us make enough noise to be heard, we will see this profession dragged kicking and screaming into the bright light of modern practice.
F

 

[fuegorama]

biddump

 

[jgrady]

<EDIT>

5) Thomas repeatedly said "you cannot get rid of the DO behind your name". It looks like Dr. Thomas did on the September '04 cover of "the DO". 'Nuf said.

I haven't even met the guy and he's got under my skin!

Does Mr. Thomas, DO (I wouldn't want to insult him with Dr., he might get confused with an MD) really think that having a DO behind my name is going to lock me into the AOA, his match or his way of thinking?

If so, he's sorely mistaken. This arrogant attitude is going to drive away many potential advocates of Osteopathy in the profession. I am first and foremost a future physician. Being an Osteopath is an OPTION that I intend to utilize, but not with any allegiance to the AOA.

Maybe when the AOA rethinks its position and sees itself as our servant vs. our ruler I'll reconsider.

MS-1 (not OMS-1 anytime soon), AZCOM

 

[jay5032]

Check out the latest edition of DO. Our fearless leader's white coat says "Dr." not "DO" after the name. Too interesting to pass up a chance to comment. Good thing we're all supposed to be "OMS" and not "MS." Ever hear of lead by example?

 

[TCOM-2006]

4) New schools. I learned an amazing thing yesterday. It takes $150 million dollars to open a new LCME (MD) school. It takes $5 million dollars to open a DO mill 😱 😱 😱 .F

fueg - great post overall!

this $5 vs. $150 million issue is not one that i have heard of before (can you list your source?). this is *definitely* something that should be researched as a possible resolution that could serve to curb the tremendous growth of new osteopathic schools (without appropriate growth of GME programs).

fueg - i really hope you will consider starting a seperate thread to develop this information and see where it goes (i - and others on the website will help you - so you don't have to end up repairing carburators) 🙂 find out when your state osteopathic assn HOD is, so we have a deadline to work for (Maine is the delegation that brought the joint match proposal forward, afterall). if this won't work - then SOMA meets at the same time as DO day on the hill - so perhaps you could present it to SOMA, who could then forward to the AOA-HOD meeting in july.

 

[fuegorama]

fueg - great post overall!

this $5 vs. $150 million issue is not one that i have heard of before (can you list your source?). this is *definitely* something that should be researched as a possible resolution that could serve to curb the tremendous growth of new osteopathic schools (without appropriate growth of GME programs).

fueg - i really hope you will consider starting a seperate thread to develop this information and see where it goes (i - and others on the website will help you - so you don't have to end up repairing carburators) 🙂 find out when your state osteopathic assn HOD is, so we have a deadline to work for (Maine is the delegation that brought the joint match proposal forward, afterall). if this won't work - then SOMA meets at the same time as DO day on the hill - so perhaps you could present it to SOMA, who could then forward to the AOA-HOD meeting in july.

The source was Thomas. It was part of his reply to: How can the LCME control new school proliferation where the AOA fails?

I'll fire up a thread as soon as I get over this next block .

Maine's state meeting was this past weekend. Missed opportunity.

I would appreciate some backup on Thomas's numbers. The combined match is a short term love, but the new-school-on-a-nickel has possible negative ramifications for the future of DOdom. It has moved into #1 on the "these things scare me must act NOW!" list.
F

 

[TCOM-2006]

The source was Thomas. It was part of his reply to: How can the LCME control new school proliferation where the AOA fails?

I'll fire up a thread as soon as I get over this next block .

Maine's state meeting was this past weekend. Missed opportunity.

I would appreciate some backup on Thomas's numbers. The combined match is a short term love, but the new-school-on-a-nickel has possible negative ramifications for the future of DOdom. It has moved into #1 on the "these things scare me must act NOW!" list.
F

sounds great fueg - i'll respond to your thread when you start it with some sources to check (iit would be good to compare the accred standards for LCME v. AOA schools).

 

[NotShorty]

My worst case, conspiracy theory scenario:

***All the top brass of the AOA has been secretly bought out by the AMA. With prescription drug scandals popping up every few months, the public is becoming wiser in the ways of non-medicinal treatment (Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy, and the like).

This should be a good thing for DO's right? It will be as long as MD's don't begin learning and practicing OMT.

"They'd never do that, how silly." Ya think?
Read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=163989&highlight=harvard+osteopathy
Or you can check out the article in the Nov. '04 issue of "The D.O."

So you've got MDs that can do everything DOs can, except they've got better MCAT scores, and the public already knows who they are...Plus you've got a bunch of unemployed Osteopaths because there aren't enough residencies.

Soon, ya gotta start closing Osteopathic schools, which MD institutions can buy for the change in their Italian leather sofas. DOs become nothing more than the dumb version of MDs (Playing devil's advocate. I don't believe the previous statement, this is just how the public may see us in my hypothetical situation).

And once again, the AMA would have an opportunity to extinguish DOs forever by selling them Allopathic accreditation just like they did in the 70's.***

>-Return to non-hypothetical-<

When Thomas was at my school, I raised my hand and asked him what happens if MD schools start teaching OMT. He replied that "well, you really couldn't stop them from doing so, we'd just have to make sure that we're teaching it better." 😕

Not very reassuring to me.

Time for South Park
-NS

 

[TCOM-2006]

My worst case, conspiracy theory scenario:

***All the top brass of the AOA has been secretly bought out by the AMA. With prescription drug scandals popping up every few months, the public is becoming wiser in the ways of non-medicinal treatment (Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy, and the like).

This should be a good thing for DO's right? It will be as long as MD's don't begin learning and practicing OMT.

"They'd never do that, how silly." Ya think?
Read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=163989&highlight=harvard+osteopathy
Or you can check out the article in the Nov. '04 issue of "The D.O."

So you've got MDs that can do everything DOs can, except they've got better MCAT scores, and the public already knows who they are...Plus you've got a bunch of unemployed Osteopaths because there aren't enough residencies.

Soon, ya gotta start closing Osteopathic schools, which MD institutions can buy for the change in their Italian leather sofas. DOs become nothing more than the dumb version of MDs (Playing devil's advocate. I don't believe the previous statement, this is just how the public may see us in my hypothetical situation).

And once again, the AMA would have an opportunity to extinguish DOs forever by selling them Allopathic accreditation just like they did in the 70's.***

>-Return to non-hypothetical-<

When Thomas was at my school, I raised my hand and asked him what happens if MD schools start teaching OMT. He replied that "well, you really couldn't stop them from doing so, we'd just have to make sure that we're teaching it better." 😕

Not very reassuring to me.

Time for South Park
-NS

hmmm.... interesting comments, let me make a few quick responses (and i recognize that most of what you discuss is hypothetical, not actual):

--AMA would never spend money to "buy out" AOA leadership (by this i'm interpreting that you mean pay AOA leadership money to influence their decision making).

--AOA leadership would never accept money from the AMA for this reason.

--while i will grant you that the public expenditures on CAM (and i guess you can put OMT in the CAM catagory) have increased, and there are more MDs interested in learning OMT (eg - recent CME at Harvard), i don't think that MDs (or DOs for that matter) are trying to use OMT in their practice in any significant amount. a few MDs who want to learn and practice OMT does not really threaten the liveleyhood of DOs (a majority of which don't even use OMT to begin with).

plus - ask the question, would AT Still be opposed to MDs learning and practicing OMT? read more on his bio, and see what you think.

re: prescription drug scandals (eg - vioxx), i have not really seen any data that this makes patients less likely to choose 'traditional medicine' and more likely to choose 'alternative medicine' on this basis (although it would be an interesting study). even if there were data to suggest this - this seems like a bad thing to me (ie patients turning away from evidence-based traditional medicine and toward unproven/unresearched 'alternative medicine' as a substitute)

--osteopaths won't be unemployed for the reason of their not being enough osteopathic residencies (there are plenty of ACGME residencies). there is also a building physician shortage, so this lessens the unemployment risk for physicians in general.

--my guess is that the general public would not know what an MCAT score is and would not use this as a basis in selecting a physician... although i would agree that MDs to have better 'name recognition', although i'm not sure to what extent this plays a role in patient selection of their physician.

--i don't think there's really a strong reason to necessitate the closure of osteopathic schools, and infact - there are many factors leading to just the opposite, and i expect that they will continue to play a role. i don't expect that MD institutions have any incentives to 'but out' DO schools. DO school leadership would not go for this (even the more progressive deans would not go for this).

--the AMA does not currently desire to extinguish DOs (they have policy defining physician as MD or DO, DOs are members, and have leadership opportunity). the AMA is not the allopathic equivlent of the AOA - it is becoming an organization that represents all of medicine. click on my name, and see my other posts to learn more about this viewpoint.

--i hope my comments are helpful (we are all benifiting from this forum to learn more about these important issues of our profession)

 

[jhug]

with all the inbreeding that goes on within the leadership of the aoa,
i wouldn't be suprised to see some major teratogenic effects sometime in the future. You need new blood, new genes, new ideas to keep a growing, self-sustaining organization going. It seems that we are intent on keeping osteopathy in the 1800's

 

[NotShorty]

Thanks for the responses. I was afraid I had killed the thread for a minute there. 😀

It's all about freshness. I'm always happy to see colleagues bringing new viewpoints to a discussion. It makes me optimistic about the direction the world is heading.

NS

 

[Docgeorge]

I got bored and I was surfing the Net and I found this The whole thing is a good read but LCME standards are pretty well summed up starting on page 65.

http://med.fsu.edu/pdf/03_clin_training_of_phys.pdf

I also thought it was interesting that the LCME was formed in 1942 by the AAMC and The Council of Medical Education of the AMA to attest to the educational quality of accredated programs, directly serving interests the general public and and of the students enrolled.

Lately it feels the AOA is just not on the same page when it comes to it's students.

 

[daveyboy]

My worst case, conspiracy theory scenario:

***All the top brass of the AOA has been secretly bought out by the AMA. With prescription drug scandals popping up every few months, the public is becoming wiser in the ways of non-medicinal treatment (Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy, and the like).

This should be a good thing for DO's right? It will be as long as MD's don't begin learning and practicing OMT.

"They'd never do that, how silly." Ya think?
Read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=163989&highlight=harvard+osteopathy
Or you can check out the article in the Nov. '04 issue of "The D.O."

So you've got MDs that can do everything DOs can, except they've got better MCAT scores, and the public already knows who they are...Plus you've got a bunch of unemployed Osteopaths because there aren't enough residencies.

Soon, ya gotta start closing Osteopathic schools, which MD institutions can buy for the change in their Italian leather sofas. DOs become nothing more than the dumb version of MDs (Playing devil's advocate. I don't believe the previous statement, this is just how the public may see us in my hypothetical situation).

And once again, the AMA would have an opportunity to extinguish DOs forever by selling them Allopathic accreditation just like they did in the 70's.***

>-Return to non-hypothetical-<

When Thomas was at my school, I raised my hand and asked him what happens if MD schools start teaching OMT. He replied that "well, you really couldn't stop them from doing so, we'd just have to make sure that we're teaching it better." 😕

Not very reassuring to me.

Time for South Park
-NS

You need to throw in the Grey Aliens, JFK, and some Black Helicopters. Then we would have a winner!!!!

 

[NotShorty]

Just you wait. Tupac and Biggie are going to co-release an Easter album to announce that they faked their deaths...my theory won't seem so crazy then, will it?

Lately it feels the AOA is just not on the same page when it comes to it's students.

Very good point. I hate stagnant thinking. Youth and inexperience can actually be a good thing (with the appropriate checks and balances) because it brings ideas that age and wisdom often overlook.

I feel like the top dogs are all saying "we gotta do something, we gotta do something...ok, what do we do?"