Thoughts on how to approach an anti-vax sibling

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Ed Tom Bell

Ed Tom Bell

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So, I have a very anti-vax sibling. She got caught up in the anti-vax movement shortly after her youngest daughter started showing signs of autism. Thankfully, her daughter is doing quite well now, but her concerns about vaccines persist and I suspect that some of her children do not have some standard vaccinations. I want to broach this subject with her, and we are very close, but I can tell she is terrified of vaccines and I honestly do not know how to begin a dialog. If anybody has any thoughts on how to approach this subject, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for specific medical advice, just any thoughts on how you might begin such a dialog.
 
Ed Tom Bell said:
So, I have a very anti-vax sibling. She got caught up in the anti-vax movement shortly after her youngest daughter started showing signs of autism. Thankfully, her daughter is doing quite well now, but her concerns about vaccines persist and I suspect that some of her children do not have some standard vaccinations. I want to broach this subject with her, and we are very close, but I can tell she is terrified of vaccines and I honestly do not know how to begin a dialog. If anybody has any thoughts on how to approach this subject, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for specific medical advice, just any thoughts on how you might begin such a dialog.
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Does she know how to read? Toss a bunch of literature at her.
 
I think a major problem is that people don't realize how serious a lot of these diseases can be. They've never seen them in action because vaccinations have stifled their prevalence in recent times. To many people these are mystical phantom diseases, you know, stuff that only happens to "other people" in the third world, but not to her little Johnny. Show her what a little kid with pertussis or measles actually looks like and what they go through, and if that doesn't make her reconsider then she is probably hopeless.

To be completely honest though, childhood vaccinations should simply be government-mandated. When a parent's *****ic choice can affect a child's health, or worse, other children's health, it goes well beyond the parent exercising their right to make a personal choice. If Jehovah's witnesses cannot legally withhold life-saving blood transfusions from their children on religious grounds, then an anti-vaccine parent should not be allowed to legally withhold potentially lifesaving vaccines from their children on the grounds of scientific illiteracy.
 
Don't bother. Once they're on either side of this fence, they aren't going to move. Love the things about her that you love, and lose some respect for her for this. It's actually been shown that increasing the info you give these people only solidifies their belief. It's sort of like how Christians think anything that challenges the idea of God existing is a test. Arguing will only corkscrew her into her position more firmly. Just leave it alone.
 
A stiff slap followed by ( in Vito corrleone's voice), "whassa matter with you"
 
Pacna said:
Don't bother. Once they're on either side of this fence, they aren't going to move. Love the things about her that you love, and lose some respect for her for this. It's actually been shown that increasing the info you give these people only solidifies their belief. It's sort of like how Christians think anything that challenges the idea of God existing is a test. Arguing will only corkscrew her into her position more firmly. Just leave it alone.
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This is exactly my concern. I guess, though, it's worth a shot because I probably can't make it worse.
 
Thanks, all. You've given me a few good ideas. I appreciate your feedback. Here goes nothing.
 
Ed Tom Bell said:
This is exactly my concern. I guess, though, it's worth a shot because I probably can't make it worse.
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I said specifically that you will make it less likely for her to remain malleable on the subject if you try to convince her of the errors of her ways. That said, I think there's some therapeutic benefit for yourself by broaching this with her to be able to say that you tried your best.
 
Pacna said:
I said specifically that you will make it less likely for her to remain malleable on the subject if you try to convince her of the errors of her ways. That said, I think there's some therapeutic benefit for yourself by broaching this with her to be able to say that you tried your best.
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Right, I understand. My thought is that, if there's even a small chance that she might listen, it's worth a shot. In the event I just polarize her more, constructively speaking it's not much different than if I said nothing at all.
 
I stand by my idea.
"hey sis, heres some literature you should read about vaccinations"

I DONT CARE VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM ZOMG

"okay sis, you wont be seeing me, nor will my children be interacting with your children, until you handle this situation"

*storms off*
 
More than anything, I'd say to make sure she knows it's her choice and don't let her feel like she's being a bad mother either way. People don't like be told they're wrong. Ask her why she's against it and listen to her, I mean REALLY listen, and let her know that you understand her concerns (even if they are completely ridiculous and wrong). When people believe you understand their position or what they're going through, they're more likely to take what you have to say seriously and not just as a lecture. Especially if she thinks you're an advocate to her who is really trying to help her do what's right for her kids and not just shove some treatment in her face.

I've found the best way to deal with people like that is to concede that they could be right (even when you know they're 100% wrong) and then weigh the pros and cons with them. It's all about tweaking their perspective just enough for them to doubt their beliefs into wanting to learn more for themselves. Then you just have to make sure they look at legitimate info and not vaxxinations-are-the-antichrist.com
 
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Stagg737 said:
More than anything, I'd say to make sure she knows it's her choice and don't let her feel like she's being a bad mother either way. People don't like be told they're wrong. Ask her why she's against it and listen to her, I mean REALLY listen, and let her know that you understand her concerns (even if they are completely ridiculous and wrong). When people believe you understand their position or what they're going through, they're more likely to take what you have to say seriously and not just as a lecture. Especially if she thinks you're an advocate to her who is really trying to help her do what's right for her kids and not just shove some treatment in their face.

I've found the best way to deal with people like that is to concede that they could be right (even when you know they're 100% wrong) and then weigh the pros and cons with them. It's all about tweaking their perspective just enough for them to doubt their beliefs into wanting to learn more for themselves. Then you just have to make sure they look at legitimate info and not vaxxinations-are-the-antichrist.com
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Strong motivational interviewing techniques.
 
Honestly if I wasnt trying to be a drama queen bitch, I would probably question her beliefs in a way that makes her realize that shes being dense and silly.
 
Ed Tom Bell said:
So, I have a very anti-vax sibling. She got caught up in the anti-vax movement shortly after her youngest daughter started showing signs of autism. Thankfully, her daughter is doing quite well now, but her concerns about vaccines persist and I suspect that some of her children do not have some standard vaccinations. I want to broach this subject with her, and we are very close, but I can tell she is terrified of vaccines and I honestly do not know how to begin a dialog. If anybody has any thoughts on how to approach this subject, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for specific medical advice, just any thoughts on how you might begin such a dialog.
Click to expand...

I think it helps to start by acknowledging that medicine doesn't know everything and can't predict everything. Admit that ANY medicine can have an idiosyncratic reaction, especially one that is designed to work directly on the immune system. And YES there have been reactions to vaccines, some even serious. With all that said anything in medicine is a risk versus benefit analysis. The benefit to children of a not getting certain infections seems quite high when balanced against the really really low significant side effects that have been seen and documented. Reactions to vaccines, when they happen, are the uncommon exception not the rule.

That's how you approach the subject. If you are condescending, belittling, or marginalizing in any way, you will actually only further imprint her opinion.
 
fancymylotus said:
Honestly if I wasnt trying to be a drama queen bitch, I would probably question her beliefs in a way that makes her realize that shes being dense and silly.
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You have to honor people's concerns. If it's not safe emotionally, you won't see change.

And I wasn't really giving you a hard time, you just got quote.

Too many people think if there are big enough douches about their correct position it will inspire change. Except. It doesn't happen. So. Instead of trying to ram the square peg repeatedly through the round hole - bang bang bang - try something different.
 
jdh71 said:
You have to honor people's concerns. If it's not safe emotionally, you won't see change.

And I wasn't really giving you a hard time, you just got quote.

Too many people think if there are big enough douches about their correct position it will inspire change. Except. It doesn't happen. So. Instead of trying to ram the square peg repeatedly through the round hole - bang bang bang - try something different.
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Thanks. And, yes, I couldn't agree more that the in-your-face approach (while i completely understand the justified urge among some to take this route) will never produce the outcome I hope to. It's finding a way to approach the subject in a way that draws the person out that is elusive, though I've gotten a number of very good suggestions here. Thanks all.
 
Depends on her intelligence. Most people functions on emotions not facts. This is how presidents get elected, commercials work, and people win arguments.

I'd argue less intelligent people rely more on emotion to make decisions and opinions. If this is the case with your sister then you will need to present an argument that makes her 'feel good about vaccines' instead of actual objective science.

However, here are the facts summed up pretty well, if you think she can objectively look at the facts:

vaccines-and-autism-copy.jpg
 
Give her Jenny McCarthy's contact information. Oh wait... we're trying to not be sarcastic and insulting.
 
fancymylotus said:
Yes darling, we're trying to *not* be like you at baseline 😛
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I like how she now has backtracked and says that she was never anti-vaccine, when her comments show otherwise.

They should just pass a law that says unless u have a medical exception signed off by your child's pediatrician, you must get the vaccine. If not, your kid doesn't go to school. No religious exceptions.
 
charmiedermie said:
I like how she now has backtracked and says that she was never anti-vaccine, when her comments show otherwise.

They should just pass a law that says unless u have a medical exception signed off by your child's pediatrician, you must get the vaccine. If not, your kid doesn't go to school. No religious exceptions.
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Agreed. And we can call it the "fancy and charmie anti-idiocy law" better known as "get your ****ing kids vaccinated you fools!"
 
link2swim06 said:
Depends on her intelligence. Most people functions on emotions not facts. This is how presidents get elected, commercials work, and people win arguments.

I'd argue less intelligent people rely more on emotion to make decisions and opinions. If this is the case with your sister then you will need to present an argument that makes her 'feel good about vaccines' instead of actual objective science.
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^^^This is why it's so important to show them you're on their side. Negate those negative emotions and usually people actually start listening to reason. *Usually*.
 
charmiedermie said:
I like how she now has backtracked and says that she was never anti-vaccine, when her comments show otherwise.
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Not according to google:
Jennifer Ann "Jenny" McCarthy is an American model, television host, comedic actress, author, and anti-vaccine activist.
Click to expand...

And google never lies.
 
fancymylotus said:
Agreed. And we can call it the "fancy and charmie anti-idiocy law" better known as "get your ****ing kids vaccinated you fools!"
Click to expand...
I don't know why certain states have religious exceptions for vaccines for school. If a child has leukemia then your decision to not vaccinate impacts them regardless of reason. There are books with collection of letters and pictures from parents on their dead child bc of not vaccinating so @Ed Tom Bell I would buy it, give to your sister, and let her read it.
 
Ed Tom Bell said:
If anybody has any thoughts on how to approach this subject, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for specific medical advice, just any thoughts on how you might begin such a dialog.
Click to expand...


If you have access to scientific/medical databases, collect information. Try to objectively demonstrate or highlight pros versus cons in the papers with a highlighter. Tell her that if she has any questions, she can email you on them. Let as much of the information speak for itself and be open for questions, and then go on with your life.

I believe McCarthy's most recent stance is that she isn't against vaccines necessarily, it's just that she doesn't believe in piling many on at once. I made special appointments for my children for this--depending on what the vaccines were, how many were to be given at that time, and if my child has been recently ill.

People need objective information and objective elucidation of what the research may or may not mean. Once they have that, they will be in a better position to make the decision.
 
Kaustikos said:
Not according to google:


And google never lies.
Click to expand...
This was her quote from her Op-Ed:
"My beautiful son, Evan, inspired this mother to question the “one size fits all” philosophy of the recommended vaccine schedule. I embarked on this quest not only for myself and my family, but for countless parents who shared my desire for knowledge that could lead to options and alternate schedules, but never to eliminate the vaccines.

Blatantly inaccurate blog posts about my position have been accepted as truth by the public at large as well as media outlets (legitimate and otherwise), who have taken those false stories and repeatedly turned them into headlines. What happened to critical thinking? What happened to asking questions because every child is different?

For my child, I asked for a schedule that would allow one shot per visit instead of the multiple shots they were and still are giving infants."

She did not only question the vaccine schedule and giving multiple shots at once.
 
charmiedermie said:
This was her quote from her Op-Ed:
"My beautiful son, Evan, inspired this mother to question the “one size fits all” philosophy of the recommended vaccine schedule. I embarked on this quest not only for myself and my family, but for countless parents who shared my desire for knowledge that could lead to options and alternate schedules, but never to eliminate the vaccines.

Blatantly inaccurate blog posts about my position have been accepted as truth by the public at large as well as media outlets (legitimate and otherwise), who have taken those false stories and repeatedly turned them into headlines. What happened to critical thinking? What happened to asking questions because every child is different?

For my child, I asked for a schedule that would allow one shot per visit instead of the multiple shots they were and still are giving infants."

She did not only question the vaccine schedule and giving multiple shots at once.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And also to the bolded:
mjl.gif
 
It pains me to say it, but Ed might have found one of the greatest possible MMI questions. I think there was a question like this on each of my 4 MMIs this cycle. So really, for your dream school, how would you handle this question?
 
Listen and connect with the patient. Ensure them that you're an advocate, not just a lecturer/authority figure, talk to them about pros and cons using legitimate data and not medicalbull****.org. Explain (politely in a non-condescending manner) why some of the research they've seen is weak.

Realistically, how I would approach them depends on what specialty I end up in. I'd be much more likely to treat anti-vaccine people (at all) if I end up in something like sports med or PMR than if I go into peds or oncology.
 
fancymylotus said:
I stand by my idea.
"hey sis, heres some literature you should read about vaccinations"

I DONT CARE VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM ZOMG

"okay sis, you wont be seeing me, nor will my children be interacting with your children, until you handle this situation"

*storms off*
Click to expand...

Sis: "Alright. See ya later. :hello:"

*sister doesn't talk for you for 20 years*

You: "Maybe I shouldn't have been such a drama queen..."

*you die alone*
 
Stagg737 said:
Listen and connect with the patient. Ensure them that you're an advocate, not just a lecturer/authority figure, talk to them about pros and cons using legitimate data and not medicalbull****.org. Explain (politely in a non-condescending manner) why some of the research they've seen is weak.

Realistically, how I would approach them depends on what specialty I end up in. I'd be much more likely to treat anti-vaccine people (at all) if I end up in something like sports med or PMR than if I go into peds or oncology.
Click to expand...
The MMI Qs don't necessarily ask you to address the issue from the perspective of a physician. In fact, most of the time they don't. You be asked to explain your approach/point of view from the perspective of a patient suspecting (s)he has gonorrhea waiting in the ER to be seen, the family member of someone who is dying and needs to make end of life choices, the friend of someone who found out about a herbal remedy for diabetes, etc. Also, the interviewers will "talk back"--how do you "connect" with the patient/friend? what is an "advocate" in this scenario? how do you explain to a less educated person the difference between "legitimate" data and the "other kind"? My (only) point: if you are practicing for MMIs, think about Qs like this one. Admissions committees are choosing physicians that people like Ed's sister would not sue much.
 
While the natural reaction of most of us here (myself included) would be to beat them over the head with lectures and mockery and data points... don't do that. It won't work because she doesn't care about the data, and being a jerk about it will only cause her to dig in further.

Take a step back and listen to what she has to say, actually listen to her reasoning and validate her concerns. I know it's not fun to do when you fundamentally disagree with someone, but it's the most effective. Listen, validate, and then bring up your concerns in a manner that's loving and non judgemental. Way pros and cons, investigate what she sees as viable options, make sure she knows that it's her decision and you aren't pressuring her to do anything. If she thinks you are on her side and that your not out to make her feel like a bad mom, she's going to be more likely to listen to what you have to say, and not just shut you out. And if she doesn't automatically want to get on the vax train after talking to you once that's okay, people change their minds over long periods of time, and pushing her to do something you want right away is going to blow up in your face
 
scrublyfe21 said:
Pardon my input here as an ignorant premed but I have a question people seem to ignore regarding vaccines; everyone is so concerned with those who choose not to get vaccinated because they put their children at risk. With the concept of herd immunity, shouldn't everyone's children who DO get vaccinated be safe if the vaccinations are completely effective? Why don't we just let the anti-vaxers run their course and get weeded out with these diseases? Or is there something that I'm not getting here. (I get the part about children with compromised immune systems or who can not otherwise be vaccinated, but they themselves are also a very small percent of the population)
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Because it is children who are unnecessarily getting sick because their parents don't make good choices. The parents who got the vaccines (and didn't get sick and didn't get autism SHOCKER) won't get weeded out, but their innocent children will be. Also, these diseases aren't killing kids as much as they are making them very sick and potential for worse complications (things like SSPE or blindness in measles for one).
 
Ed Tom Bell said:
So, I have a very anti-vax sibling. She got caught up in the anti-vax movement shortly after her youngest daughter started showing signs of autism. Thankfully, her daughter is doing quite well now, but her concerns about vaccines persist and I suspect that some of her children do not have some standard vaccinations. I want to broach this subject with her, and we are very close, but I can tell she is terrified of vaccines and I honestly do not know how to begin a dialog. If anybody has any thoughts on how to approach this subject, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for specific medical advice, just any thoughts on how you might begin such a dialog.
Click to expand...

Some of the large national autism organizations have prominent pages devoted to the vaccination issue and have recently become very vocal on the subject. I'd use the measles opener and follow up with a link to one of the autism sites. Find one that's short and respectful of her beliefs, and that does acknowledge the very small proportion of adverse reactions to vaccinations. If she's still on the fence, I'd then push for a modified vaccination schedule.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
Pardon my input here as an ignorant premed but I have a question people seem to ignore regarding vaccines; everyone is so concerned with those who choose not to get vaccinated because they put their children at risk. With the concept of herd immunity, shouldn't everyone's children who DO get vaccinated be safe if the vaccinations are completely effective? Why don't we just let the anti-vaxers run their course and get weeded out with these diseases? Or is there something that I'm not getting here. (I get the part about children with compromised immune systems or who can not otherwise be vaccinated, but they themselves are also a very small percent of the population)
Click to expand...
First, vaccines are not 100% effective. However, if everyone is vaccinated the number who don't respond to the vaccines doesn't really become an issue - herd immunity and all. The measles vaccine, for example, is between 95-97% effective depending on who you ask. Despite that, we HAD eliminated it from the US back when everyone still vaccinated.

Second, there are people who cannot be vaccinated - the largest group of which is young children who coincidentally are the ones at highest risk of complications should they get sick.

Third, you have people who were vaccinated but their immunity gets shot to hell - chemotherapy patients or those on biologics for autoimmune diseases being the most common.
 
agilevin said:
The MMI Qs don't necessarily ask you to address the issue from the perspective of a physician. In fact, most of the time they don't. You be asked to explain your approach/point of view from the perspective of a patient suspecting (s)he has gonorrhea waiting in the ER to be seen, the family member of someone who is dying and needs to make end of life choices, the friend of someone who found out about a herbal remedy for diabetes, etc. Also, the interviewers will "talk back"--how do you "connect" with the patient/friend? what is an "advocate" in this scenario? how do you explain to a less educated person the difference between "legitimate" data and the "other kind"? My (only) point: if you are practicing for MMIs, think about Qs like this one. Admissions committees are choosing physicians that people like Ed's sister would not sue much.
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure if you're trying to ask me a question or give me advice...I'm already in med school, so thanks for the latter but I don't really need to worry about MMIs anymore. If you had questions maybe clarify?

I really don't think getting sued has anything to do with how adcoms are selecting students. If they really think someone is the type of person that would frequently get sued, that candidate probably has some other blaring problems that will prevent them from being accepted long before the "is this person going to get sued" questions even arise. Besides, almost every doctor faces a lawsuit at some point in their career, that's just the reality of it.
 
Hank Green did a pretty good job of explaining the psychology behind anti-vaxers, it might help with having a better idea of where their mindset is

 
Stagg737 said:
I'm not really sure if you're trying to ask me a question or give me advice...I'm already in med school, so thanks for the latter but I don't really need to worry about MMIs anymore. If you had questions maybe clarify?

I really don't think getting sued has anything to do with how adcoms are selecting students. If they really think someone is the type of person that would frequently get sued, that candidate probably has some other blaring problems that will prevent them from being accepted long before the "is this person going to get sued" questions even arise. Besides, almost every doctor faces a lawsuit at some point in their career, that's just the reality of it.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was not talking to you specifically. The question itself resembled an MMI type one and I thought it could be useful practice to the random people thinking about such things (e.g. applicants for the next cycle). The "sued" part was just a figure of speech--a substitute for a personable, approachable, with great bedside manner (or potential for it), etc/
 
@Ed Tom Bell Would you mind letting us know how it goes? I'm now intensely curious how this is all going to play out.
 
Jabbed said:
@Ed Tom Bell Would you mind letting us know how it goes? I'm now intensely curious how this is all going to play out.
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Well, I chickened out on it today, mostly because it's our birthday (we're twins). But, I plan to visit her at the end of the month and the convo will be had. I will report back for sure.
 
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