Thoughts on MDO and MDA.

[DrZed]

Before I get my head chewed off, hear me out. I've read through other topics about this on SDN already, and I'm just curious to see the current opinions now that it looks like the medical field will be changing soon.


We have the ACA that will lead to a higher need for primary care physicians as well as the AOA and ACGME residencies merging. The common folk need doctors. Perhaps its time both degrees work together to meet the needs of the people. Both MD and DO's would change their degree titles to the following.
MD -> MDA Medical Doctor of Allopathy
DO -> MDO Medical Doctor of Osteopathy
This way, both degrees will be able to keep their heritage and titles separate, but there would no longer be any confusion about whether a DO is a "medical doctor".

The Osteopathic degree is special. I personally feel that both degrees should remain separate. Allopathic schools look for gunners. Those with the best grades, best scores, and the ability to lead. They know what they want to do with their life at a young age and do all they can to pursue that dream. Osteopathic schools realize that some people develop a passion later in life. Many of us stumble at some point. You can easily see this by the admissions requirement. One allows grade replacement while the other doesn't.


This is my argument for these similar, but separate degree changes. For those that want the DO degree to remain DO forever, please comment. I would like to see what your reasoning is.

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[calvinhobbes]

Never going to happen. Sorry.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Premise: Need more PCPs + Fields need to work together.
Evidence: DO degree is confusing(?)
Outcome: Transform both degrees to similar name will solve the above

Special note: the population applying to DO is significantly different than the population applying to MD.

 

[GlowInTheDark]

I'd say this is the most logical suggestion I've seen on here.

But still, "we can't changgggggggggeeeeeeeeeee!!!"

 

[K31]

I suggest you review the history and connotations of the term "allopathic" and then explain to the class why we MDs should ever accept a derogatory term as our degree title.

For extra credit, you can learn what "MD" actually stands for.

 

[babdoc]

(Edit: K31, 👍 I probably should have gone with something like that rather that typing it all out.)

Oh my, where to begin...

We have the ACA that will lead to a higher need for primary care physicians as well as the AOA and ACGME residencies merging. The common folk need doctors.

Common folk? I don't think that's fair. It implies a lot and is not the mindset that a physician should have. To discuss socioeconomic status and how it affects one's health is one thing, but to peg patients as common and thus imply a lower status is inappropriate.

Perhaps its time both degrees work together to meet the needs of the people.

The two sides of the medical profession do not work together? I am sorry if you have had experience in a clinical setting where MDs and DOs do not work together, consult for each other, partner in practices, etc. However, in the vast majority of hospitals, they do work closely to meet patients' needs.

Both MD and DO's would change their degree titles to the following.
MD -> MDA Medical Doctor of Allopathy
DO -> MDO Medical Doctor of Osteopathy
This way, both degrees will be able to keep their heritage and titles separate, but there would no longer be any confusion about whether a DO is a "medical doctor".

History lesson time. Allopathy was not coined to as a comparison to osteopathy, as is often assumed these days. Allopathy was coined by Samuel Hahnemann, the inventor/creator/whatever of homeopathy, as a contrast with his own hypotheses (perpetuated as delusions) that the best way to cure disease is to treat it with something that would also cause the symptoms (but in impossibly small amounts). The word allo-pathy breaks down to treating disease with opposites, which really has nothing to do with mainstream medicine. Treating by doing the opposite thing is a gross oversimplification. It is also not actually an accepted term by mainstream medicine, though it, as we all know, is used by DOs at times.

Therefore, changing the degree granted by "MD institutions" to MDA would and should not occur because the "A" is neither accepted nor does it have anything to do with the actual practice of medicine.

I view the MD and DO as analogous to the BS and BA: they are different routes to get to the same end. During undergrad, two students might take different coursework and would thus be awarded a different bachelor's degree. However, they arrive at essentially the same end. MDs and DOs take slightly different coursework yet arrive at the same end: they are physicians.

The Osteopathic degree is special. I personally feel that both degrees should remain separate.

Maybe it's because I am coming down off of a graduation high. Maybe it is because I am happy to have had the chance to get a solid medical education. Either way, I kind of agree. There is history behind the DO degree, and there is a tight knit community of physicians that share its common tie. So I guess that does make it special, in a way. Why totally change it? We have the same privileges. What do the letters really mean? You're still a physician.

Allopathic schools look for gunners. Those with the best grades, best scores, and the ability to lead. They know what they want to do with their life at a young age and do all they can to pursue that dream. Osteopathic schools realize that some people develop a passion later in life. Many of us stumble at some point. You can easily see this by the admissions requirement. One allows grade replacement while the other doesn't.

False dichotomy. While you're right that DO schools probably are more forgiving with grades and are more open to non-traditional students, they also want the best students they can get. Sure, call those students gunners (I did), but it doesn't change that every school--MD and DO--wants students that will work hard and excel.

This is my argument for these similar, but separate degree changes. For those that want the DO degree to remain DO forever, please comment. I would like to see what your reasoning is.

Again, my counter is: why? Why make them similar? After school, you see that in practice--outside the insulated bounds of the school--a physician is a physician. Work hard for your patient. Work well with your colleagues. And, at the end of the day, you'll have made a difference. That's all that it's about.

 

[SurgeDO]

Honestly, why do you people care about this so much? If you want an MD...and are only thinking DO because you couldn't get into an MD...take a year off, study for your MCAT, and apply again. MDA and MDO are going to just be as equally confusing.

Lock this thread before the MD derms at mass gen begin ranting.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Its still going to Cause confusion unfortunately. Education of the public about the DO degree is the best chance to gain more recognition.

 

[SurgeDO]

Allopathic schools look for gunners. Those with the best grades, best scores, and the ability to lead. They know what they want to do with their life at a young age and do all they can to pursue that dream. Osteopathic schools realize that some people develop a passion later in life. Many of us stumble at some point. You can easily see this by the admissions requirement. One allows grade replacement while the other doesn't.

You are joking, right?

Alarm the MD vs. DO debate squads!

 

[Ost3oclast]

Allopathic schools look for gunners. Those with the best grades, best scores, and the ability to lead. They know what they want to do with their life at a young age

Thats a broad generalization.

 

[DrZed]

I do realize that Allopathic medicine was coined as a derogatory term as well as MD standing for Medicinae Doctor aka Doctor of Medicine. In the US though, if you ask anyone, 90% of the response will probably just be "Medical Doctor."

I am aware that this would be an annoyance for MDs to have to change to MDA. However, it seems to me that now-a-days MDs recognize themselves as Allopathic physicians. The seperation between the two forums here on SDN is Allopathic and Osteopathic after all, but I do see how MDA might not work. Of course, I never said this would be an easy problem to solve.

For the "common folk" comment, I apologize, but I am from the south. I've always heard it being used for normal. everyday people vs the fancy smart folks that go on to colleges and university. I do concede that it can easily be taken as a derogatory term and do so apologize.

In profession, yes MDs and DOs work together. I meant more the politics and organization side that there always seems to be head butting. Hence separate exams, residencies, and application dates. Instead of working together to make a uniformed system, there's basically two versions of everything.


The BS/BA comparison is similar, but still not quite the same as MD/DO. A BS isn't going to be able to do all the jobs a BA can and vice versa. While it might work in some cases such as people that get the Bachelor's degree for a promotion, MD and DO basically do the same thing job-wise.

The letters are important because we live in a world that loves shorthand. In a world of LOL, TTYL, BBL etc. The letter change isn't for you or for me. It's for the people we serve. I have family that use to avoid DOs and PAs simply because they have no clue what it is. For those that want to work in rural and underserved areas, I would think this is even more important.

I agree that both schools want the best students they can get.

As per your final point. I sort of agree. You're right that at the end of the day. The two little letters behind your name doesn't matter. As long as you've worked hard and helped your patient, you've done well.

What the DO profession needs is mainstream exposure. Toss in a DO in Grey's Anatomy or whatever medical tv drama show is left and watch the recognition of DOs rise.




Edit: It seems that my comment regarding MDs preferring gunners and DOs life experience is incorrect? My bad, that was just based on my experience when I applied. I noticed most of the people i interviewed with at MD schools were younger and were more the "gunner" type. On the other hand, I got along well with other interviewees at DO schools who were older and had more interesting life stories. Not saying it was a 100% spread. There are definitely MD schools that prefer non-gunners, compassionate people with strong life experiences. I apologize if my own experiences aren't correct. It happens.

Edit2: Please don't start a MD vs DO debate... I just wanted to see what others thought about merging titles, but keeping degrees separate. It's not even the stigma of the degree, it's just a majority of people have no clue what a DO is. But If this topic gets out of hand please close it. Remember, please don't start an MD vs DO debate... I hate those.

 

[Ost3oclast]

What the DO profession needs is mainstream exposure. Toss in a DO in Grey's Anatomy or whatever medical tv drama show is left and watch the recognition of DOs rise.

This. Its kind of unfortunate though. Especially in some of these shows (House) when your internal med guy can also do interventional cardiology, neurology and cardiothoracic surgery. What did you go to school for 30 years? Hahaha

Seriously though, the general public does pay attention to this stuff.

 

[mehc012]

The BS/BA comparison is similar, but still not quite the same as MD/DO. A BS isn't going to be able to do all the jobs a BA can and vice versa. While it might work in some cases such as people that get the Bachelor's degree for a promotion, MD and DO basically do the same thing job-wise.

I'm sorry, and I know it's a side note, but this is just not how BS/BA works. Both are 4yr, Bachelor's degrees. At SOME schools, it is set up more like the previous poster hinted at: you can have the same major and yet be awarded a BA vs a BS depending on the coursework you completed. For these institutions, both students end college with a bachelor's degree in biology, for example, though the BA student took fewer labs and/or science courses. Non-science majors get BAs.

Other schools, such as liberal arts colleges or technical colleges, only award one or the other, no matter which courses or majors you take. So a student graduating from a liberal arts college will have a BA in biology, even if 80% of their courses were lab sciences.

The only difference between a BA and a BS is that if you went to a school which grants both, sometimes employers will prefer to see the BS because they worry that the BA student took the minimum number of courses for the major, and therefore have less of an academic background in that area.

Other than that, they are identical and can be earned at the same school in the same major in the same amount of time.

 

[Didierdrogba]

The BS/BA comparison is similar, but still not quite the same as MD/DO. A BS isn't going to be able to do all the jobs a BA can and vice versa. While it might work in some cases such as people that get the Bachelor's degree for a promotion, MD and DO basically do the same thing job-wise.
.

It's more like a DDS/DMD comparison.

To OP: MD's will not change their degree name, why should they anyways?

Patients cant even tell between a PA and a doctor half the time, I don't think they'd care for the most part. An equally ridiculous topic on the MD thread is that they are discussing whether medical students should be called student doctors or what not. PATIENTS DONT CARE. GET OVER IT. (if they do, they are a**holes)

 

[ToldYouSo]

Of course, I never said this would be an easy problem to solve.

You're assuming it's a problem?

In profession, yes MDs and DOs work together. I meant more the politics and organization side that there always seems to be head butting. Hence separate exams, residencies, and application dates. Instead of working together to make a uniformed system, there's basically two versions of everything.

All residencies are going to be ACGME

The BS/BA comparison is similar, but still not quite the same as MD/DO. A BS isn't going to be able to do all the jobs a BA can and vice versa.

This is just flat out wrong

 

[babdoc]

For the "common folk" comment, I apologize, but I am from the south. I've always heard it being used for normal. everyday people vs the fancy smart folks that go on to colleges and university. I do concede that it can easily be taken as a derogatory term and do so apologize.

Kudos to you for that first bit. I didn't think that it might be a regional/colloquial use. It's good that you recognize that this might not be taken well elsewhere. Bravo.

All residencies are going to be ACGME

Yes. He she said that in the OP. But the AOA will still be the DO professional orgnization/lobbying group/union. They will be accrediting the schools, requiring and administering the COMLEX as the test for DO licensure, etc. So the OP is right, there will still be a separation politically in the professional organizations.

 

[DrZed]

I'm sorry, and I know it's a side note, but this is just not how BS/BA works. Both are 4yr, Bachelor's degrees. At SOME schools, it is set up more like the previous poster hinted at: you can have the same major and yet be awarded a BA vs a BS depending on the coursework you completed. For these institutions, both students end college with a bachelor's degree in biology, for example, though the BA student took fewer labs and/or science courses. Non-science majors get BAs.

Other schools, such as liberal arts colleges or technical colleges, only award one or the other, no matter which courses or majors you take. So a student graduating from a liberal arts college will have a BA in biology, even if 80% of their courses were lab sciences.

The only difference between a BA and a BS is that if you went to a school which grants both, sometimes employers will prefer to see the BS because they worry that the BA student took the minimum number of courses for the major, and therefore have less of an academic background in that area.

Other than that, they are identical and can be earned at the same school in the same major in the same amount of time.

Interesting, I never knew that. At my undergrad, the title I think was Bachelor of Arts and Sciences, but the BS went to the science majors and BA to liberal arts. Learn something new everyday. 🙂


I suppose it would be a lot to ask MDs to change their title. I only suggested it since the past topics on this usually talked about how DOs didn't feel like they should be the only ones that needs to change their title. I thought if both professions edited their titles, it would be more like both sides conceding a little. That was why I had originally suggested it.

 

[docnotsopc]

I view the MD and DO as analogous to the BS and BA: they are different routes to get to the same end. During undergrad, two students might take different coursework and would thus be awarded a different bachelor's degree. However, they arrive at essentially the same end. MDs and DOs take slightly different coursework yet arrive at the same end: they are physicians.

haha but BS is not the same BA. BA students took easier courses and have less job prospects. Im upset we got compared to BAs in this example

Im kidding

Dont get me wrong if I could pay $50 to turn my DO into an MD I would (as would many), but its never going to happen and thats something i've accepted as time has gone on in medical school. Also, me turning my DO into an MD is more of a personal thing (that I would explain but it would reveal who I am to anyone in my class who reads SDN. I realize that makes no sense and im ok with that) than it is about me concerned the odd patient will get confused about my initials

 

[survivordo]

haha but BS is not the same BA. BA students took easier courses and have less job prospects. Im upset we got compared to BAs in this example

Im kidding

Dont get me wrong if I could pay $50 to turn my DO into an MD I would (as would many), but its never going to happen and thats something i've accepted as time has gone on in medical school. Also, me turning my DO into an MD is more of a personal thing (that I would explain but it would reveal who I am to anyone in my class who reads SDN. I realize that makes no sense and im ok with that) than it is about me concerned the odd patient will get confused about my initials

It did happen... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States#1962.2C_California

Don't you youngins learn anything nowadays? 😉

Survivor DO

 

[mehc012]

haha but BS is not the same BA. BA students took easier courses and have less job prospects. Im upset we got compared to BAs in this example

Im kidding

Hey there ho there! I went to a LAC, so I have a BA in chemistry 🙁 I'm upset that it looks like I took the easy route when I actually averaged ~17 credits/semester!
Maybe I'll blame my unemployment on that instead of my laziness in submitting apps...😉

 

[Hemorrage]

The whole degree thing won't be a problem within the next 10-20 years. By 2020, 20% of medical students will be at DO schools so by the time these students become practicing doctors across the nation the whole DO thing won't be a big deal. If anything the best that could have happen to DO schools is the physician shortage problem

 

[NeuroLAX]

The whole degree thing won't be a problem within the next 10-20 years. By 2020, 20% of medical students will be at DO schools so by the time these students become practicing doctors across the nation the whole DO thing won't be a big deal. If anything the best that could have happen to DO schools is the physician shortage problem

Just fyi but according to AACOM more than 20% of medical students in the U.S. are training to become DO as of today.

 

[Hemorrage]

Just fyi but according to AACOM more than 20% of medical students in the U.S. are training to become DO as of today.

Oh wow! Yeah my facts were from an article I read a few years ago

 

[Textbookversion]

because DO's want to add pretend time content to their degree MD's should change their degree name? wtf? how about instead OMM disappears, DO schools get LCME accredited (which would take all of 5 minutes for most of them) and everyone is an MD.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Listen. MD? DO? Who really cares? You want to be respected by your peers, you want to be a good person in life, you want to wake up every morning saying, "Wow, I really love my life. There's more to life than my career." And you want to go to bed every night thinking, "Wow, what a good day I had. I helped people. I got to play with my kids, or my friends, or my dog. I just had awesome sex (not all necessarily in that order)."

If you go to bed every night regretting the two initials next to your name, well sorry pal, you'll be miserable, because that's NOT what life is about. If you get crap for being a DO at the place you work, well, sorry, but that's your problem because either a) you're a bitch who can't man up and defend yourself, b) you care too much about what others think, or c) are too caught up with proving your self-worth or prestige rather than to actually go work at a place where you feel COMFORTABLE. You shouldn't have to constantly prove yourself to others, that's not what life is about, it should naturally show through your work. And guess what, if you still feel bad about being a DO, then change your environment! It really is your own undoing if you constantly care about what others think. Hate to break it to you, but in case you didn't know, we all bleed the same blood and we all die at some point.

So, the second you quit worrying about such trivial crap such as two letters next to your name, when, in fact, YOU ARE A PHYSICIAN EITHER WAY, the better the quality of your life becomes. Patient's won't care. And the one's that do? Well there's a million more waiting at your doorstep. You will be JUDGED based on your character and your work ethic. Honestly people. There's more to life than a career. Go and save lives, make people healthy, enjoy the profession--but for crying out loud, live! You need to respect YOURSELF first and foremost, and the rest will all fall into place.

 

[sylvanthus]

because DO's want to add pretend time content to their degree MD's should change their degree name? wtf? how about instead OMM disappears, DO schools get LCME accredited (which would take all of 5 minutes for most of them) and everyone is an MD.

This but open up OMM as an optional course that any med student interested could take.

 

[DrZed]

I have a BS in Literature. At my school, to get a BS in Literature one would need to take more coursework in that Department, whereas a BA in Literature had more room for electives. Both signify you're a college graduate , with one having that extra chip on the shoulder, and in the real world, both mean absolutely nothing. If I did not go to med school, I'm sure employers couldn't give a rats ass if I had a BS or a BA degree (seeing as some schools don't even offer a BS in Literature). It all comes down to your interview, your personality, the job skills you bring, etc.

Listen. MD? DO? Who really cares? You want to be respected by your peers, you want to be a good person in life, you want to wake up every morning saying, "Wow, I really love my life. There's more to life than my career." And you want to go to bed every night thinking, "Wow, what a good day I had. I helped people. I got to play with my kids, or my friends, or my dog. I just had awesome sex (not all necessarily in that order)."

If you go to bed every night regretting the two initials next to your name, well sorry pal, you'll be miserable, because that's NOT what life is about. If you get crap for being a DO at the place you work, well, sorry, but that's your problem because either a) you're a bitch who can't man up and defend yourself, b) you care too much about what others think, or c) are too caught up with proving your self-worth or prestige rather than to actually go work at a place where you feel COMFORTABLE. You shouldn't have to constantly prove yourself to others, that's not what life is about, it should naturally show through your work. And guess what, if you still feel bad about being a DO, then change your environment! It really is your own undoing if you constantly care about what others think. Hate to break it to you, but in case you didn't know, we all bleed the same blood and we all die at some point.

So, the second you quit worrying about such trivial crap such as two letters next to your name, when, in fact, YOU ARE A PHYSICIAN EITHER WAY, the better the quality of your life becomes. Patient's won't care. And the one's that do? Well there's a million more waiting at your doorstep. You will be JUDGED based on your character and your work ethic. Honestly people. There's more to life than a career. Go and save lives, make people healthy, enjoy the profession--but for crying out loud, live! You need to respect YOURSELF first and foremost, and the rest will all fall into place.

I agree with what you are saying, but this suggestion of the name change isn't about either side caring about the two letters, but more just to make things more stream-lined and convenient for the patient population. Yes there will be ignorant folks, but why let them go away when more education or a small letter change could fix that. That seems more prideful than the alternative.

I'd be perfectly happy if DOs just get more acknowledgement out there. After 100 years, I'd guess 50% of the American population realizes DOs are physicians. One option is for a quick letter change to make it happen quicker. The other is through education and awareness through media which would take longer.

 

[babdoc]

Maybe the AOA should take some of the $$$ they require members to pay and get a TV producer to put a DO on TV....though it'd probably end up as Dr. House chastising the DO for doing cranial

 

[calvinhobbes]

The AOA is what makes DOs look bad. They preach that DOs use a whole body approach and focus on prevention in addition to all the same practices MDs do...but....umm... I have many friends in MD school, and they all learn EXACTLY the same stuff we do, they are constantly told to also treat the whole patient, they are taught the same social contemporary issues DO students do, they are taught to consider musculoskeletal problems, etc. The MD schools of today aren't the MD schools of 50 years ago. Heck, look at the new one opening in CT this fall (Quinippiac or something), they have DO's as clinical staff members and the MD school even likens themselves to a DO school by promoting holistic health and prevention that, you know, we all learn, regardless of whether you go to DO or MD school.

The reason why I had said earlier that the titles will never change is because the AOA wants to preserve their ego, their $$$. They want to sell the fact that DOs learn OMM and that we offer something extra, when in fact, how many DOs actually use OMM in practice? What's stopping an MD from learning OMM, or other physical therapy techniques?

Point is, the AOA has isolated themselves so much that even DO physicians don't want anything to do with them because it has come to the level where they believe they are superior to MDs because they have been trained to "think differently"... when in reality, they are segregating themselves. The new merger will hopefully destroy the notion that DOs are distinct, because really, there is nothing special about being a DO as opposed to being an MD. You can't teach empathy, you can't teach someone to want to be treat the whole person...because a) all schools do that, and b) doctors either will or they won't. The only real solution is to get rid of the DO title all-together and just have everyone be an MD, but that will never happen unless AOA gives up their power, which they won't. That is why, at the end of the day, none of this actually matters. It's all a moot point, irrelevant.

What it REALLY comes down to is EGO. People within the MD world do it to themselves, too (MD radiologist thinking they are better than MD family med docs), when in reality, it all comes down to patient outcomes, and if someone really gives a flying crap of what other people think.

You want to know why people still don't know who DOs are? It's because we all practice medicine. End of story. Majority of patients don't care, they don't go digging for differences, all they know is that they see a teeth doctor, a foot doctor, an internal med. doctor. The patient's don't care what the letters are, they want to be helped and that's it. And the doctors, if professional, won't say "Oh, well he's dentist, and I'm a medical doctor, and that's a podiatrist, our schooling and standards are better than their's because....etc." No, not going to happen, because patients don't care about your ego, they want your medical expertise, and that's that. If patient's want to explore the differences between DO and MD schools, good for them, but they will soon realize none of that matters, just like seeking out a doctor from Harvard may not necessarily make a patient happier as opposed to a doctor from a DO school, it all is personal preference--for those that even realize there is a difference.

And trust me, if a huge ad campaign actually does occur in the media about DOs being "better" than MDs, believe me patients will be the first to realize it's all a bunch of bullcrap because it's all doctor dependent, not title dependent.

 

[docnotsopc]

The AOA is what makes DOs look bad. They preach that DOs use a whole body approach and focus on prevention in addition to all the same practices MDs do...but....umm... I have many friends in MD school, and they all learn EXACTLY the same stuff we do, they are constantly told to also treat the whole patient, they are taught the same social contemporary issues DO students do, they are taught to consider musculoskeletal problems, etc. The MD schools of today aren't the MD schools of 50 years ago. Heck, look at the new one opening in CT this fall (Quinippiac or something), they have DO's as clinical staff members and the MD school even likens themselves to a DO school by promoting holistic health and prevention that, you know, we all learn, regardless of whether you go to DO or MD school.

The reason why I had said earlier that the titles will never change is because the AOA wants to preserve their ego, their $$$. They want to sell the fact that DOs learn OMM and that we offer something extra, when in fact, how many DOs actually use OMM in practice? What's stopping an MD from learning OMM, or other physical therapy techniques?

Point is, the AOA has isolated themselves so much that even DO physicians don't want anything to do with them because it has come to the level where they believe they are superior to MDs because they have been trained to "think differently"... when in reality, they are segregating themselves. The new merger will hopefully destroy the notion that DOs are distinct, because really, there is nothing special about being a DO as opposed to being an MD. You can't teach empathy, you can't teach someone to want to be treat the whole person...because a) all schools do that, and b) doctors either will or they won't. The only real solution is to get rid of the DO title all-together and just have everyone be an MD, but that will never happen unless AOA gives up their power, which they won't. That is why, at the end of the day, none of this actually matters. It's all a moot point, irrelevant.

What it REALLY comes down to is EGO. People within the MD world do it to themselves, too (MD radiologist thinking they are better than MD family med docs), when in reality, it all comes down to patient outcomes, and if someone really gives a flying crap of what other people think.

You want to know why people still don't know who DOs are? It's because we all practice medicine. End of story. Majority of patients don't care, they don't go digging for differences, all they know is that they see a teeth doctor, a foot doctor, an internal med. doctor. The patient's don't care what the letters are, they want to be helped and that's it. And the doctors, if professional, won't say "Oh, well he's dentist, and I'm a medical doctor, and that's a podiatrist, our schooling and standards are better than their's because....etc." No, not going to happen, because patients don't care about your ego, they want your medical expertise, and that's that. If patient's want to explore the differences between DO and MD schools, good for them, but they will soon realize none of that matters, just like seeking out a doctor from Harvard may not necessarily make a patient happier as opposed to a doctor from a DO school, it all is personal preference--for those that even realize there is a difference.

And trust me, if a huge ad campaign actually does occur in the media about DOs being "better" than MDs, believe me patients will be the first to realize it's all a bunch of bullcrap because it's all doctor dependent, not title dependent.

This is literally the best summary I have ever read on SDN about being the DO and what the AOA is about. Well said👍 If it wasn't so long i would quote it as a signature

Pre-meds need to read it a few times to drill it into their heads

 

[Ost3oclast]

This is literally the best summary I have ever read on SDN about being the DO and what the AOA is about. Well said👍 If it wasn't so long i would quote it as a signature

Pre-meds need to read it a few times to drill it into their heads

I agree.

 

[DocEspana]

This entire thing makes me think of MDMA

 

[DrZed]

This is literally the best summary I have ever read on SDN about being the DO and what the AOA is about. Well said👍 If it wasn't so long i would quote it as a signature

Pre-meds need to read it a few times to drill it into their heads

+2


I don't think DOs need to be portrayed as being "better" than their MD counterpart. I think they just need to be shown are just as competent. There just isn't a lot of exposure.

 

[235009]

I suppose it would be a lot to ask MDs to change their title. I only suggested it since the past topics on this usually talked about how DOs didn't feel like they should be the only ones that needs to change their title. I thought if both professions edited their titles, it would be more like both sides conceding a little. That was why I had originally suggested it.

MDs don't need to concede anything ...the starkest example of this is the upcoming merger where DOs were forced into conceding their protected residencies when the ACGME announced that it no longer wanted to allow AOA trained DOs into their fellowships. It's an MD world out there and it's really a wonder that they left a wide open back door to becoming a physician unscrutinized for so long: you can get accepted to medical school with a horrible GPA and laughable MCAT, not take a single USMLE exam, go to an AOA residency, do AOA board certification and practice medicine without having your education or training ever be scrutinized by the LCME or ACGME!

Neither degree title is going to change. What is going to happen though is the LCME and ACGME are going to continue trying to marginalize DOs (by taking over and opening up their residencies and adding more US MD schools and seats) as the DO leadership continues to marginalize themselves by claiming they are superior to MDs. The ultimate result will be that once the number of US MDs increases to the point that DO match rates have plummeted a few DO schools will be taken over by the LCME and the rest will close and the DO degree will cease to exist. This happens all the time with competing entities... the smaller entity either willfully gets bought out by the larger/stronger entity or the larger entity slowly pushes out the smaller entity, eventually forcing them into a buyout.

 

[235009]

also, this thread really makes me think that the MDs on SDN should petition to get the "Allopathic" forum renamed. the name is likely a result of the anti-MD bias of the founder of SDN (who is a DO) and it is obviously causing confusion among pre-meds and younger med students.

 

[Ost3oclast]

also, this thread really makes me think that the MDs on SDN should petition to get the "Allopathic" forum renamed. the name is likely a result of the anti-MD bias of the founder of SDN (who is a DO) and it is obviously causing confusion among pre-meds and younger med students.

Meh, I never really thought about that. I think it is useful to have the different forums though. What would you suggest allo be called?

 

[235009]

Meh, I never really thought about that. I think it is useful to have the different forums though. What would you suggest allo be called?

haven't really given it much thought but off the top of my head i would say that the forum should be called "Medical Students" and "Osteopathic" should be a subforum.

 

[Ost3oclast]

haven't really given it much thought but off the top of my head i would say that the forum should be called "Medical Students" and "Osteopathic" should be a subforum.

I see....

 

[username456789]

Allopathic schools look for gunners. Those with the best grades, best scores, and the ability to lead.

It is clear you have no idea what a 'gunner' is.

 

[DrEnderW]

A BS isn't going to be able to do all the jobs a BA can and vice versa.

Haha what?? That is ridiculous.

It's very dependent on school...

At my liberal arts school, economics, physics, chem, math, bio, etc were BA.

Anthro, history, sociology, etc were BS.

No ones BA in the sciences, economics, engineering prevented them from PhD programs, wall street, or med school.

 

[DrEnderW]

Edit: It seems that my comment regarding MDs preferring gunners and DOs life experience is incorrect? My bad, that was just based on my experience when I applied. I noticed most of the people i interviewed with at MD schools were younger and were more the "gunner" type.

You saw students during an interview that would be clearly malicious against their fellow classmates?

Gunner means someone who would "gun down" or sabotage someone on their own team. For example, they are students that directly deceive or cheat their classmates.

It does NOT mean someone working hard in medical school... Why would that be a problem?

 

[calvinhobbes]

MDs don't need to concede anything ...the starkest example of this is the upcoming merger where DOs were forced into conceding their protected residencies when the ACGME announced that it no longer wanted to allow AOA trained DOs into their fellowships. It's an MD world out there and it's really a wonder that they left a wide open back door to becoming a physician unscrutinized for so long: you can get accepted to medical school with a horrible GPA and laughable MCAT, not take a single USMLE exam, go to an AOA residency, do AOA board certification and practice medicine without having your education or training ever be scrutinized by the LCME or ACGME!

Neither degree title is going to change. What is going to happen though is the LCME and ACGME are going to continue trying to marginalize DOs (by taking over and opening up their residencies and adding more US MD schools and seats) as the DO leadership continues to marginalize themselves by claiming they are superior to MDs. The ultimate result will be that once the number of US MDs increases to the point that DO match rates have plummeted a few DO schools will be taken over by the LCME and the rest will close and the DO degree will cease to exist. This happens all the time with competing entities... the smaller entity either willfully gets bought out by the larger/stronger entity or the larger entity slowly pushes out the smaller entity, eventually forcing them into a buyout.

👍👍👍 Yup. True story bro.

 

[DocEspana]

to this day I have never understood the people who want to make up fancy new degrees with a combination of M, D, and O's thrown around. (though the MOD degree is cool. it comes with ban powers). That is what we colloquially call "half-assing it."

You want to be an MD, do something to get in.

You want to be a DO, don't go bemoaning your initials.

You think DO doesn't have enough name brand recognition to be recognized as a physician, you are out of your mind. Stop being paranoid about problems that don't exist. 1) it barely ever happens, i acutally know not a single person outside of anecdotes on this forum to back it up as having ever happened. and I've asked. 2) Even if it does, you don't really care if you have to say "oh DO is just a different Degree you can get instead of MD. But they're both exactly the same". Its really the most nonchalant phrase in the world.

Know what inventing new degrees does? It erodes any name brand recognition was already had by the DO name by 1) changing what has been the mark of the profession for 140ish years 2) clearly admitting that there is no reason for MD to change, just for DO to be more like MD; I often have no problem with this, except this is simply done out of an inferiority complex, and 2.5) clearly trying to be the little brother desperate for attention by trying to make your name more similar to someone else's. No one likes that little brother. He gets swirlies in the men's locker room after gym. Don't go MDO or MD(o) or OMD or whatever completely terrible acronyms you want to try. They all suck and frankly you insult me by wanting to just turn two related fields into a contraction. Be more elegant and mature in your ideas.

If you said to me that they should all be one degree I would applaud your idea, but laugh at the impossibly steep mountain you just claimed you wanted to climb. Fighting the AOA which does not want to dissolve into irrelevance, courting the AAMC and ACGME which represents your economic competition (in both cases, but the former more than the latter), and fending off slings and arrows from the proud (as well as the "proud") graduates of the last 50 years who are still practicing and feel deeply attached to their degree and would accuse you of selling them out. DO's be hipsters, yo.

Don't do everyone a disservice by advocating for some smooshed up horribly named new degree. Its so easily shot down as a horrid idea, even by someone who is all for degree unification. Think of a way you can actually either make DO students be happy with who they are and realize their concerns are so massively overblown... or figure out a way to quietly slip propofol into the bloodstream of the entire AOA and allow a more complete merger of leadership to happen when they are snoozing on the michael jackson juice.

 

[babdoc]

Neither degree title is going to change. What is going to happen though is the LCME and ACGME are going to continue trying to marginalize DOs

Don't think the they need to do anything. Wait 30 years until the majority of the baby boomers start passing. The US population is static or shrinking. This current large increase in med school spots may very well turn into a physician surplus. The DO schools, which %-wise, have had the largest increase will feel it the most. That need for med school graduates could easily go back down with population variation. That is if there is an AOA in 30 years...

I still think nothing will/should change degree wise. I would agree that medical education will be more standardized under one umbrella. However, I bet that schools that will have historically (i.e. currently) offered the DO degree will continue to do so, and they should. Schools and communities like to hold onto traditions. In the future, I imagine that the education and accreditation will be unified between schools while they continue to offer their historic degree.

After all, it is your GME training that makes the physician, not the letters after your name.

 

[calvinhobbes]

It's an MD world out there and it's really a wonder that they left a wide open back door to becoming a physician unscrutinized for so long: you can get accepted to medical school with a horrible GPA and laughable MCAT.

Just thought I'd mention that not all DO students have bad GPAs or MCAT scores (mine weren't). Some students choose DO school for many personal reasons, and many others may have had the same application stats as MD students but for whatever reason, couldn't get in to an MD program. I do agree about the USMLE, though...all DO students need to take that exam, it's just such a better written exam, it makes sense, and it holds so much weight...DO students who choose not to take the USMLE--especially in the near future--are setting themselves up for a lot of doors closing their way.

 

[DocVapor]

I've said it before that DO needs to stay DO. The best thing that DO's can do for themselves if they have this inferiority complex is to just be great physicians. Everything else will work itself out in time. Novel idea, I know.

Don't think the they need to do anything. Wait 30 years until the majority of the baby boomers start passing. The US population is static or shrinking. This current large increase in med school spots may very well turn into a physician surplus. The DO schools, which %-wise, have had the largest increase will feel it the most. That need for med school graduates could easily go back down with population variation. That is if there is an AOA in 30 years...

The census projections say otherwise up to at least 2060. The rates of growth decrease, but the population will still be growing, even if projected immigration comes to a standstill.

Source: http://www.census.gov/population/projections/files/summary/NP2012-T1.xls
From: http://www.census.gov/population/projections/data/national/2012/summarytables.html

Now will growth of medical school spots outpace population growth? Maybe. But both MD AND DO schools may feel the pressure if midlevels end up getting full practice rights everywhere. Lots of variables to consider.

 

[DocEspana]

I always like to bring this up.... the growth of Caribbean students outpaces US-MDs in net growth and DOs in percentage growth. Both in the last 10 years and in the upcoming 10 year projection. So since they represent some insane percent of the acgme match list, it should be interesting to see the interplay of the three "schools"

For those who missed the very well worded comment before, DOs will outgrow MDs as a percentage in the next decade or so. It was phrased that way because US MD schools outgrew DO schools by sheer number of new students for the last few years and are projected to blow out DO schools on the growth front in the next decade. But since they are 4x the size of the DO student population, DO numbers, percentage wise, are 4 times larger due to the smaller starting numbers.

 

[yoyostring]

I've said it before that DO needs to stay DO. The best thing that DO's can do for themselves if they have this inferiority complex is to just be great physicians. Everything else will work itself out in time. Novel idea, I know.



The census projections say otherwise up to at least 2060. The rates of growth decrease, but the population will still be growing, even if projected immigration comes to a standstill.

Source: http://www.census.gov/population/projections/files/summary/NP2012-T1.xls
From: http://www.census.gov/population/projections/data/national/2012/summarytables.html

Now will growth of medical school spots outpace population growth? Maybe. But both MD AND DO schools may feel the pressure if midlevels end up getting full practice rights everywhere. Lots of variables to consider.

👍👍
Only the DOs have issue with the MD/DO difference. I trained at a place where there were a lot of both. Patients don't notice, and don't care. MDs for the most part don't care. DOs perpetually feel like they have something to prove. (some anyway...)

In the end, if you're good at what you do, you'll get respect from patients and peers alike.I graduated an MD and I'm not changing to MDA because you have an inferiority complex.

 

[babdoc]

👍👍
Only the DOs have issue with the MD/DO difference. I trained at a place where there were a lot of both. Patients don't notice, and don't care. MDs for the most part don't care. DOs perpetually feel like they have something to prove. (some anyway...)

In the end, if you're good at what you do, you'll get respect from patients and peers alike.I graduated an MD and I'm not changing to MDA because you have an inferiority complex.

This. 👍 This nebulous discussion could only occur on SDN.

Neuro, thanks for the census stats. Interesting. At least it shouldn't affect any of our careers. 😉

España, well worded indeed. Though I like Precedex more: sedation/anxiolytic for the delegates, analgesia for us. Everyone wins.

 

[DocVapor]

Neuro, thanks for the census stats. Interesting. At least it shouldn't affect any of our careers. 😉

No problem. I certainly hope it doesn't affect us... but then the census can't predict what will happen to the population after a zombie apocalypse or if North Korea decides to get a little "frisky."