Thoughts on these programs?

[tucktuckfry]

Best friend and I are trying to finish up making my program list for applications (sept is coming up soon!), have the middle and bottom of my list done (I'm applying middle heavy) and want to narrow my top programs. Anyone have any general thoughts or impressions (strengths, weaknesses, malignancy, word on the interview trail, residents, attendings who have worked with graduates from these progs) on the following general surgery programs? Trying to get a feel for what the vibe is. Btw I have a 230 Step 1 (rest of app is great) so if you guys know if any of these programs screen at >230 please let me know. Friend applying in gen surg as well has a 264 Step 1 so assuming screens won't affect her. Go to a "top 5" med school on east coast, although I don't know if that even matters. Interested in eventually applying for a vascular fellowship.

Michigan
Wisconsin
Northwestern
BWH
NYU

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[doc05]

Best friend and I are trying to finish up making my program list for applications (sept is coming up soon!), have the middle and bottom of my list done (I'm applying middle heavy) and want to narrow my top programs. Anyone have any general thoughts or impressions (strengths, weaknesses, malignancy, word on the interview trail, residents, attendings who have worked with graduates from these progs) on the following general surgery programs? Trying to get a feel for what the vibe is. Btw I have a 230 Step 1 (rest of app is great) so if you guys know if any of these programs screen at >230 please let me know. Friend applying in gen surg as well has a 264 Step 1 so assuming screens won't affect her. Go to a "top 5" med school on east coast, although I don't know if that even matters. Interested in eventually applying for a vascular fellowship.

Michigan
Wisconsin
Northwestern
BWH
NYU

Apply to all of them. And if you're really at a top 5, then have your surgery mentor make some phone calls.

 

[swoopyswoop]

Do you have any research experience? Northwestern is very research heavy (so are some of the others, but I only have experience interviewing at NW).

 

[mimelim]

If you are interested in vascular surgery, why would you apply to general surgery and not integrated vascular?

 

[tucktuckfry]

Do you have any research experience? Northwestern is very research heavy (so are some of the others, but I only have experience interviewing at NW).

Wisconsin is extremely research heavy, it's a 7 year prog. Michigan is also research heavy, though I don't know if it's mandatory 7 years I think can do just 5 if you want. Wisconsin and mich sound like they love research way more than NW.
I have a lot of research, over 10 years worth.

If you are interested in vascular surgery, why would you apply to general surgery and not integrated vascular?

I've been told my step 1 won't cut it for vascular programs. I don't know if it will cut it for top tier gen surg either but I figured I would try anyways.

 

[mimelim]

Wisconsin is extremely research heavy, it's a 7 year prog. Michigan is also research heavy, though I don't know if it's mandatory 7 years I think can do just 5 if you want. Wisconsin and mich sound like they love research way more than NW.
I have a lot of research, over 10 years worth.



I've been told my step 1 won't cut it for vascular programs. I don't know if it will cut it for top tier gen surg either but I figured I would try anyways.

A 230 with good research/LOR will get you looked at at some vascular integrated programs. Certainly you will miss out on some that screen 230+, but that is no different than high end GS programs. By that standard I wouldn't bother applying to BWH or Northwestern. I don't know if they have actual hard cut-offs, but knowing a fair number of people in their recent graduating classes and their scores, it is hard to imagine that you wouldn't be at the bottom of the list strictly from a step 1 perspective. IVS is very competitive, but it is small and there is a premium placed on people who are committed to it early. Something to consider. (also, will you be at SVS this year? If so, we should meet up and talk at the residency fair.)

 

[VincentAdultman]

I've been told my step 1 won't cut it for vascular programs. I don't know if it will cut it for top tier gen surg either but I figured I would try anyways.

“Losers always whine about their Step One score. Winners go home and —— the Prom Queen.”

Sean Connery (not really)

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Best friend and I are trying to finish up making my program list for applications (sept is coming up soon!), have the middle and bottom of my list done (I'm applying middle heavy) and want to narrow my top programs. Anyone have any general thoughts or impressions (strengths, weaknesses, malignancy, word on the interview trail, residents, attendings who have worked with graduates from these progs) on the following general surgery programs? Trying to get a feel for what the vibe is. Btw I have a 230 Step 1 (rest of app is great) so if you guys know if any of these programs screen at >230 please let me know. Friend applying in gen surg as well has a 264 Step 1 so assuming screens won't affect her. Go to a "top 5" med school on east coast, although I don't know if that even matters. Interested in eventually applying for a vascular fellowship.

Michigan
Wisconsin
Northwestern
BWH
NYU

You're going to be on the borderline with a 230 at (at least) BWH, Michigan and Northwestern. You may not get screened, but absent some other things on your application to make it stands out you likely won't get an interview. If you have mentors willing to make calls, may not be a bad thing for the top tier places you are really interested in.

 

[ncrassa]

With a hefty research background, you will be invited to interview at many top academic places regardless of your choice of training pathway. Fewer institutions screen than you think, the bar is lower than you'd imagine, and institutions also individually review candidates who fell below the screening bar to ensure otherwise outstanding prospects are not discarded. Surgery is a smaller world than medicine and other specialties, and each application gets more holistic scrutiny in my experience. Don't be discouraged by your Step 1 score.

PM me if you'd like to discuss further.

 

[kindoflostandsad]

You're going to be on the borderline with a 230 at (at least) BWH, Michigan and Northwestern. You may not get screened, but absent some other things on your application to make it stands out you likely won't get an interview. If you have mentors willing to make calls, may not be a bad thing for the top tier places you are really interested in.

I disagree. I interviewed at most of these programs with a 225. My classmate interviewed at all and didn't have a stellar score either. I had a serious personal problem come up during boards study time (actually towards the end of second year but it was significant enough that I had a hard time shaking it off) that completely threw me off. I thought I wouldn't get a single interview and was extremely depressed but I not only interviewed really well I was also told that my application (research) and outreach activities were extremely impressive. Don't put yourself down like I did, it turned out that all the worry and stress was for nothing. Have your research mentors reach out to surgeons at these progs. A lot of the surg research people are really well connected to each other from conferences and collaboration so their word means a lot, more than a Step 1 score anyway. And ultimately programs aren't looking to match someone with the highest score, but rather decent and good human beings who won't lie about some stupid thing on the daily.

Mich, Wisconsin, BWH have top notch research so plenty of people know each other from these progs. NW as well from their quality research circuit. A lot of people at NYU trained all over the place (many of my interviewers trained under my mentors) so they are all well connected too.

The prog I didn't interview at was Michigan-screens at a 250 per prog coordinator. But I've heard multiple times through the grapevine (a very short grapevine) that their candidate selection has been poor over the years. They choose people who have super high scores and they end up dropping out of residency because they feel too smart to be putting themselves through the hell that is a gen surg residency. If you look at their match in the past many years, tons of prelims and unmatched candidates (probably way better and dedicated than those 250+ drop outs) getting categorical spots. Progs would rather take a dedicated 230 over a noncommittal 250+ IMO.

Bottom line: just apply and have mentors reach out.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

I was also told that my application (research) and outreach activities were extremely impressive.

What do you disagree with? Your story reinforces my point. I didn't say a 230 excludes someone. I said it means the other parts of the application to be strong in order to get interviewed.

 

[kindoflostandsad]

What do you disagree with? Your story reinforces my point. I didn't say a 230 excludes someone. I said it means the other parts of the application to be strong in order to get interviewed.

Just the part about being borderline with a 230. I think having a 230 isn't as bad as most people think, score-wise. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[tucktuckfry]

Interesting. What do you guys think about life in Madison vs. Chicago vs. Ann Arbor? I'm from the midwest so applying to almost all of the midwest programs.

 

[thedrjojo]

Not sure if nyu will interview at that score. Being in nyc adds competition that inflates the step score over the quality of programs. If you don't absolutely have to be in nyc, I'd definitely have nyu at the bottom of those 5

 

[dynx]

I disagree. I interviewed at most of these programs with a 225. My classmate interviewed at all and didn't have a stellar score either. I had a serious personal problem come up during boards study time (actually towards the end of second year but it was significant enough that I had a hard time shaking it off) that completely threw me off. I thought I wouldn't get a single interview and was extremely depressed but I not only interviewed really well I was also told that my application (research) and outreach activities were extremely impressive. Don't put yourself down like I did, it turned out that all the worry and stress was for nothing. Have your research mentors reach out to surgeons at these progs. A lot of the surg research people are really well connected to each other from conferences and collaboration so their word means a lot, more than a Step 1 score anyway. And ultimately programs aren't looking to match someone with the highest score, but rather decent and good human beings who won't lie about some stupid thing on the daily.

Mich, Wisconsin, BWH have top notch research so plenty of people know each other from these progs. NW as well from their quality research circuit. A lot of people at NYU trained all over the place (many of my interviewers trained under my mentors) so they are all well connected too.

The prog I didn't interview at was Michigan-screens at a 250 per prog coordinator. But I've heard multiple times through the grapevine (a very short grapevine) that their candidate selection has been poor over the years. They choose people who have super high scores and they end up dropping out of residency because they feel too smart to be putting themselves through the hell that is a gen surg residency. If you look at their match in the past many years, tons of prelims and unmatched candidates (probably way better and dedicated than those 250+ drop outs) getting categorical spots. Progs would rather take a dedicated 230 over a noncommittal 250+ IMO.

Bottom line: just apply and have mentors reach out.

Your’re an exception or a fabricator (nice way to say liar). Thanks for posting your experience but realistically less competitive programs just dump applicants less than your board scores.
I’m way out of the process so maybe things have gotten less selective since I was on the selection committee but I doubt it.
I think some people may make themselves feel better posting alternative criteria but the reality is programs have a hard cutoff.
If you have someone that knows someone make a call for you that’s different...but no program is gonna take someone below a hard cutoff cause they have a compelling case. Nobody cares about that crap.

 

[littleturtle10]

Best friend and I are trying to finish up making my program list for applications (sept is coming up soon!), have the middle and bottom of my list done (I'm applying middle heavy) and want to narrow my top programs. Anyone have any general thoughts or impressions (strengths, weaknesses, malignancy, word on the interview trail, residents, attendings who have worked with graduates from these progs) on the following general surgery programs? Trying to get a feel for what the vibe is. Btw I have a 230 Step 1 (rest of app is great) so if you guys know if any of these programs screen at >230 please let me know. Friend applying in gen surg as well has a 264 Step 1 so assuming screens won't affect her. Go to a "top 5" med school on east coast, although I don't know if that even matters. Interested in eventually applying for a vascular fellowship.

Michigan
Wisconsin
Northwestern
BWH
NYU

Apply to all of them and let them do the narrowing down. For the middle tier of applicants, getting interviews at top places is a crap shoot- for all you know they like your PS, or mentor, or research interest, or think you're a great fit, but you have no idea until you send the application. For top applicants to top programs (w 264 step 1) interviews may be different days, time of year, fit with schedule, etc. That $15-$25 wont matter quite so much in 5-7 years- apply broadly.

 

[Skindoc83]

I realize that I’m not a general surgeon but as someone in Dermatology it has been my experience that cut offs rarely apply to people from top 5 schools. Programs don’t publish average board scores but most do publish where their residents are from

 

[kindoflostandsad]

Your’re an exception or a fabricator (nice way to say liar). Thanks for posting your experience but realistically less competitive programs just dump applicants less than your board scores.
I’m way out of the process so maybe things have gotten less selective since I was on the selection committee but I doubt it.
I think some people may make themselves feel better posting alternative criteria but the reality is programs have a hard cutoff.
If you have someone that knows someone make a call for you that’s different...but no program is gonna take someone below a hard cutoff cause they have a compelling case. Nobody cares about that crap.

I definitely had faculty advocating for me and felt very comfortable with how competitive/reputable my top 10 programs were. Ended up at (IMO) one of the best programs in the country so I am very happy with the way things turned out even though I had a bump in the road on the way here. It sounds like most PDs just want residents who are honest, good, and kind. The rest of our resume can speak to our intellectual capabilities-and that includes everything, not just board scores.

So I fully disagree that all programs have a hard cut off. This may be true at some institutions but in my experience it simply isn't.

Further, you will see when you interview at a lot of "top" programs in talking to the residents that not everyone has a 250+ board score. There are many extremely successful residents who have completed 1 or 2 prelim years after being unmatched at the most competitive programs in the country. Hard work and dedication >>>> a guy with a 260 who is annoying to deal with on a daily basis and cuts corners.

Bottom line: don't sell yourself short, believe in your ability, and trust that in surgery your drive and work ethic as well as your kindness and capacity to interact effectively with a broad range of personalities are the most important things.

 

[ChaseDO20]

Best friend and I are trying to finish up making my program list for applications (sept is coming up soon!), have the middle and bottom of my list done (I'm applying middle heavy) and want to narrow my top programs. Anyone have any general thoughts or impressions (strengths, weaknesses, malignancy, word on the interview trail, residents, attendings who have worked with graduates from these progs) on the following general surgery programs? Trying to get a feel for what the vibe is. Btw I have a 230 Step 1 (rest of app is great) so if you guys know if any of these programs screen at >230 please let me know. Friend applying in gen surg as well has a 264 Step 1 so assuming screens won't affect her. Go to a "top 5" med school on east coast, although I don't know if that even matters. Interested in eventually applying for a vascular fellowship.

Michigan
Wisconsin
Northwestern
BWH
NYU

Would you mind posting your program list when you are finished?

 

[NotaCop]

Would you mind posting your program list when you are finished?

+1 similar app would love to see what you have decided on across the board