Tier system for DO schools?

[phinphan83]

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Is there a tier system for ranking the DO schools? If so, in what tier would Nova and Lecom Bradenton be considered. Thanks for any feedback.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Is there a tier system for ranking the DO schools? If so, in what tier would Nova and Lecom Bradenton be considered. Thanks for any feedback.

Technically no. I personally think 3/4 year clinicals put DO schools into different 'tiers.' However, it's hard to compare Nova and LECOM-B because LECOM-B is a strict PBL curriculum, Nova is not. It's apples and oranges in my opinion. As far as being well established, solid 3/4 years, etc, probably Nova ... but I think LECOM-B is doing some good things.

 

[BobBarker]

Nova and Lecom are generally thought of as being pretty good schools. Nova is older, more established. Both LECOM's are relatively new campuses but they don't overcharge their students, and they perform extraordinarily well on boards. Nova gets the nod over Lecom because it isn't a branch campus of an already new school.

 

[Siggy]

Nova gets the nod over Lecom because it isn't a branch campus of an already new school.

You know... I've never gotten the big deal over branch campuses. It's not exactly like UCI, UCLA, UCSD, UCD, and UCSF are bad allopathic schools because they're all branch campuses of the University of California. A bad school is a bad school regardless of if it's a branch campus or not.

 

[phinphan83]

Thanks for the feedback. I am glad to hear that both schools are regarded as good schools. As always, your medical education and career is what you make of it, but its good to know where you stand based on things like a school's reputation.

 

[JasonS]

A DO is a DO in the eyes of non-osteopathic folks. People just don't take the time to determine which osteopathic school is "top notch" because they simply don't care. PCOM = TCOM = RVU.

 

[DrMidlife]

You know... I've never gotten the big deal over branch campuses. It's not exactly like UCI, UCLA, UCSD, UCD, and UCSF are bad allopathic schools because they're all branch campuses of the University of California. A bad school is a bad school regardless of if it's a branch campus or not.

Comparing the UC system to LECOM or ATSU is not valid. Each UC campus, with the exception of UCSF, is a standalone university offering a vast number of fields of study, from archaeology to zoology, not to mention football. There's no mother ship in the UC system, other than an uber-board of regents that argues for how state funds are spent. The branch campuses of DO schools (PCOM, CCOM, LECOM, ATSU), by contrast, are all completely dependent on the mother ship school for their basic existence. Take away Berkeley and Irvine is still a UC and a med school. Take away PCOM Philly and PCOM-GA is gone too. What the DO branch campuses have to do that the UC campuses do not is figure out cross-state-line licensing issues, which is not insignificant.

 

[JaggerPlate]

A DO is a DO in the eyes of non-osteopathic folks. People just don't take the time to determine which osteopathic school is "top notch" because they simply don't care. PCOM = TCOM = RVU.

How long have you been a PD??

 

[Siggy]

The branch campuses of DO schools (PCOM, CCOM, LECOM, ATSU), by contrast, are all completely dependent on the mother ship school for their basic existence. Take away Berkeley and Irvine is still a UC and a med school. Take away PCOM Philly and PCOM-GA is gone too. What the DO branch campuses have to do that the UC campuses do not is figure out cross-state-line licensing issues, which is not insignificant.

Maybe at first, but once the schools get going I still don't see why they can't stand on their own. There are plenty of DO schools that are single campus and only offer a limited number of programs or even started as stand alone schools of medicine. If you deconsolidated the top leadership of PCOM, the structures and people who make the campus a school are still there. Of course none of this explains the wharrgarbl over branch campuses being bad.

 

[JasonS]

How long have you been a PD??

Look if you go to RVU, I'm not trying to bash on the school. My point is that PDs will simply take the best DO candidate. They won't pick a student based on which osteopathic school he/she went to. The OP should pick the school that is the best fit personally, and NOT because of perceived reputation.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Look if you go to RVU, I'm not trying to bash on the school. My point is that PDs will simply take the best DO candidate. They won't pick a student based on which osteopathic school he/she went to. The OP should pick the school that is the best fit personally, and NOT because of perceived reputation.

I don't go to RVU ...

However, the perceived reputation of DO school is actually fairly important, maybe not in the way you are thinking where a PD will say 'Oh, X student went to KCOM where Y student went to RVU, so we will take the student from KCOM,' but the perception does mean a lot in terms of quality. Namely, the 3/4 year clinical rotations. DO schools are not all created equal (which is much more common in the MD world), and your ability to rotate in big, academic hospitals, not spend too much time and effort setting up rotations all over the place, etc, can really alter an application come residency time. Not only have I heard people on SDN say PDs asked them specific questions about their rotations - ie have you been in big hospitals opposed to preceptor based type deals (meaning they want people who understand the way things work and know what they are doing), but also if you have spent all your time working in small clinics, doing a lot of preceptor work, etc, and then you go to do a rotation at a big, ACGME hospital for a residency spot and look like you don't know what the hell you're doing because you've had little experience in such a big environment ... well, my guess is that this is going to count and affect the decision. A lot of the older, more 'prestigious' DO schools usually give you a better shot at these bigger rotation opportunities (in my limited experience/opinion).

(Note - I'm not bagging on preceptor based rotations. I've actually heard a lot of good things about them, simply using it in an example here).

 

[Dr Skeptismo]

Look if you go to RVU, I'm not trying to bash on the school. My point is that PDs will simply take the best DO candidate. They won't pick a student based on which osteopathic school he/she went to. The OP should pick the school that is the best fit personally, and NOT because of perceived reputation.

I don't think they go to RVU, you may have missed their point. In most cases, as with PCOM, a "perceived reputation" isn't arbitrary. Some DO schools, like PCOM, have a longer tradition, more alum, more established rotation sites, etc. Their reputation is better than other schools because for those who weigh these criteria, these schools are better. Along with any benefit of having a well known school on your degree, attending these schools will also give you opportunities other schools might not be able to provide. I'm sure a PD will look for the best candidate, but having greater opportunities makes it easier to be the best. I also think an AOA PD will certainly have an idea about differences, subjective or otherwise, between the quality of education at different DO schools.

 

[DrMidlife]

Maybe at first, but once the schools get going I still don't see why they can't stand on their own. There are plenty of DO schools that are single campus and only offer a limited number of programs or even started as stand alone schools of medicine. If you deconsolidated the top leadership of PCOM, the structures and people who make the campus a school are still there. Of course none of this explains the wharrgarbl over branch campuses being bad.

I'm not looking to be pedantic or to bash the DO branch campus movement - I loved LECOM-Bradenton and was heartbroken to not get in. Branching can't be blamed, per se, for the poor ratio of med school seats to residency spots, which I understand to be the usual complaint.

But: yes PCOM-GA would be gone if PCOM Philly went away. The whole branching phenomenon is due to an inability of the main campus to add seats on the main campus, and/or due to speed. COCA will accredit a branch campus MUCH faster than it will accredit a new school, with many assumptions made about the contribution of the main campus to the branch. Take away the main campus and you lose the branch.

 

[Dr Skeptismo]

Argh, you type fast

 

[JaggerPlate]

Argh, you type fast

Hahaha, if that was directed at me ... we essentially said the same things ! 👍

 

[Dr Skeptismo]

Hahaha, if that was directed at me ... we essentially said the same things ! 👍

Great minds think alike

 

[Black Adder]

A DO is a DO in the eyes of non-osteopathic folks. People just don't take the time to determine which osteopathic school is "top notch" because they simply don't care. PCOM = TCOM = RVU.

I get the same impression. I'll be starting at Western this summer, I doubt the majority of MD PD's out there (outside of a few in california I suppose..) would have even heard of the place. But I don't think that matters much, as long as my rotations for third and fourth year are at decent hospitals, my board scores are decent, I'm able to procure good LORs from the right people, and I learn what I need to learn to be successful in residency... I'll be fine. It's more important to find a school that you're comfortable in, and is the cheapest (...Western is probably not a good example for this point..), not the perceived name recognition of said school that you feel exists out there..... because 9 times out of 10, no one will have ever heard of your school... it doesn't matter if you go to "AT Still", or "PCOM", or "TCOM"... outside of the DO world, hardly anyone will have even heard of these places.

 

[TeamZissou]

Not to derail the thread but but as a current student I feel this belongs in the Pre-DO section. I doubt many current students feel like debating the "tiers" of schools. While I think there has been some good insight into differences between schools in this thread, it is really more of a pre-med topic as it doesn't pertain to the issues that exist once you start school.

 

[DrMom]

You're correct. This is a thread that has to do with applying to medical school, so off to pre-osteo...

 

[ChiDO]

I'm not looking to be pedantic or to bash the DO branch campus movement - I loved LECOM-Bradenton and was heartbroken to not get in. Branching can't be blamed, per se, for the poor ratio of med school seats to residency spots, which I understand to be the usual complaint.

But: yes PCOM-GA would be gone if PCOM Philly went away. The whole branching phenomenon is due to an inability of the main campus to add seats on the main campus, and/or due to speed. COCA will accredit a branch campus MUCH faster than it will accredit a new school, with many assumptions made about the contribution of the main campus to the branch. Take away the main campus and you lose the branch.

I don't believe this is true at all. Each school has their own dean, admissions, rotations, match list, ect; thus I would assume they are their own entity. If you'd like to provide a link in regards to this, I'd be interested to read it. 😕

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't believe this is true at all. Each school has their own dean, admissions, rotations, match list, ect; thus I would assume they are their own entity. If you'd like to provide a link in regards to this, I'd be interested to read it. 😕

Oh for the love of all that's holy I'm not attacking your school. Go ask your school administration. You'll find that that there are ways in which a branch is independent, and ways in which it is not. From an accreditation standpoint a branch campus is not independent.

Google "coca accreditation" and you get lots of stuff, including the actual accreditation standards: http://www.osteopathic.org/pdf/SB03-Standards of Accreditation July 2009.pdf. Search for "branch" in that PDF and you'll see how branch campus accreditation is tied to main campus accreditation.

I'll back away from my "branch campus dies" statement because nobody's talking about campuses dying. But I stand by my premise that a branch campus is NOT independent from the main school. Accreditation is one of the ties; there are plenty more.

 

[MSmentor018]

A lot of the older, more 'prestigious' DO schools usually give you a better shot at these bigger rotation opportunities (in my limited experience/opinion).

actually it's the opposite....LECOM-B has 3 unrestricted electives in the 3yr and all in the 4th except for EM. I am extremely happy I wasn't told where and what hospital to rotate at so that gave me the chance to hit all the MD residencies that I wanted during interview season

 

[scpod]

....My point is that PDs will simply take the best DO candidate. They won't pick a student based on which osteopathic school he/she went to....

That's not entirely true. I can give you a case in point. Lecom wanted more residency spots for its graduates in Florida so it "found the funds" to start up a new residency at a hospital that was lacking the dollars to do so. All they asked was that the hospital take medcal students for rotations. However, the hospital wanted to make sure that Lecom was compensated in other ways, apparently. Even though more Nova students applied than Lecom students, there was a HUGE difference in how many residents came from each school.

Now, before you say it is just a coincidence in the match, let me tell you about a little-known thing that goes on in the match. A PD can decide that they want some, most or all of their spots to come from one particular school if they want to. They can submit multiple lists in the match.

Here's a quote from the directions for program directors:

Most programs will need to submit only one Rank Order List for the Match, in order to match with the most desirable applicants to the program. However, some programs may have special requirements that can only be satisfied by submitting more than one Rank Order List for a single program.

For example, it is possible within the match process to attempt to recruit a particular "mix" or distribution of applicants for a program based on specific applicant characteristics, such as school attended or location of residence. To accomplish this, a program must divide the program's available positions into separate categories, designate how many positions are to be allocated to each category, and submit separate Rank Order Lists for each category of position.

So, there are actually cases where going to a particular school could possibly help you.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think that there isnt a tier system as much as.. There is a big divide amount the older schools such as Kcumb,kcom,Pcom,Ccom and newer ones like Rvu. I would say that the older schools stand in the highest level and then you have the mid levels like Lecom and nova and then you have the lower ones (Rvu).

This is a personal ranking though. I mean If you get into Pcom and get into touro then like hell you should be packing for Philli.

 

[JaggerPlate]

actually it's the opposite....LECOM-B has 3 unrestricted electives in the 3yr and all in the 4th except for EM. I am extremely happy I wasn't told where and what hospital to rotate at so that gave me the chance to hit all the MD residencies that I wanted during interview season

Yeah, they do have a nice amount of freedom for electives. Sorry if I offended or seemed ignorant towards the subject ... I made some blanket claims (which I hate doing) simply to illustrate a point.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Great minds think alike

Just what I was thinking 😉

 

[PureMotivation]

Can i get some opinions oo DMU? I know this school is older and more established such as PCOM and CCOM...thoughts?

 

[Septo Shock]

That's not entirely true. I can give you a case in point. Lecom wanted more residency spots for its graduates in Florida so it "found the funds" to start up a new residency at a hospital that was lacking the dollars to do so. All they asked was that the hospital take medcal students for rotations. However, the hospital wanted to make sure that Lecom was compensated in other ways, apparently. Even though more Nova students applied than Lecom students, there was a HUGE difference in how many residents came from each school.

Now, before you say it is just a coincidence in the match, let me tell you about a little-known thing that goes on in the match. A PD can decide that they want some, most or all of their spots to come from one particular school if they want to. They can submit multiple lists in the match.

Here's a quote from the directions for program directors:



So, there are actually cases where going to a particular school could possibly help you.

To add to this, I think it depends on the location of the residency program that you are trying to match into. For example, programs in the northeast will tend to be more familiar of the reputation of the DO schools on the east. Programs on the west coast will be more familiar with the DO schools on the west coast and etc. If you're trying to go into a residency within a certain region, the reputation of the school within the regions will be important.

For example, I did a summer research at an allopathic residency program on the west coast and the PD told me he has heard some good things about my school (PCOM) but not much. He did say that there's one DO school on the west that he would be very hesitant to take any students in the future due to previous bad experiences with working with their students.

Even though there is no national recognition of which schools are the best, the education in 1st/2nd yr and clinical training in 3rd/4th yr can vary a lot; therefore one cannot say School A=School B=School C

 

[MSmentor018]

Sorry if I offended or seemed ignorant towards the subject ... I made some blanket claims (which I hate doing) simply to illustrate a point.

don't sweat it, no offense at all. we're all just chatting

 

[MSmentor018]

For example, it is possible within the match process to attempt to recruit a particular "mix" or distribution of applicants for a program based on specific applicant characteristics, such as school attended or location of residence. To accomplish this, a program must divide the program's available positions into separate categories, designate how many positions are to be allocated to each category, and submit separate Rank Order Lists for each category of position..

after looking for the past couple of years at the programs alumni classes, I've definitely noticed similiar correlations. so many from their own school, so many DO, so many from foreign countries....etc.

 

[digitlnoize]

OP: Don't get too hung up on this idea of "tiers." Honestly, that's something invented to sell magazines.

The right school is the one that's right for you. Make your own rankings. I will say that I love life at LECOM-B, and that our Step 1 scores are phenomenal (#1 in the country this year, #2 for the last 2 years), it's a great area, great weather, tons of stuff to do, etc, etc.

When I was applying, I was looking mostly at my state MD schools and east coast DO schools. The "official" tiering system looked like this:

#1 State University A
#2 State University B
#3 State Random School
#4 LECOM-B

MY ranking looked like this:

#1 State Random School
#2 LECOM-B
#3 State Univ. A
#4 State Univ. B

Turns out, we're much happier at LECOM-B than we would've been at Random state school, so I had those wrong on my list apparently, but the key is to notice that my list is way different than the "official" one.

You should rank schools based on how good a fit it is for YOU and your situation...not based on reputation, or what some magazine or website tells you.

 

[marke]

i always wondered about the same question, howcome MD schools are tiered, but DO are not. does anyone know how MD school tier their schools??? and why can't DO schools be tiered?

 

[Morsetlis]

Comparing the UC system to LECOM or ATSU is not valid. Each UC campus, with the exception of UCSF, is a standalone university offering a vast number of fields of study, from archaeology to zoology, not to mention football. There's no mother ship in the UC system, other than an uber-board of regents that argues for how state funds are spent. The branch campuses of DO schools (PCOM, CCOM, LECOM, ATSU), by contrast, are all completely dependent on the mother ship school for their basic existence. Take away Berkeley and Irvine is still a UC and a med school. Take away PCOM Philly and PCOM-GA is gone too. What the DO branch campuses have to do that the UC campuses do not is figure out cross-state-line licensing issues, which is not insignificant.

UCSD doesn't have football. Our license plate blurb is "the smart ones".

 

[ChiDO]

i always wondered about the same question, howcome MD schools are tiered, but DO are not. does anyone know how MD school tier their schools??? and why can't DO schools be tiered?

There are no "official" tiers. Most people quote the US-News rankings as the "tier" system, even though basically the order of the list is dependent on NIH funding, which has no bearing on your medical education (a third of the score).

A true assessment of medical schools would be if an official independent agency that calculated gpa, mcats, acceptance rates, step 1 scores, clinical rotation options, residency placement (how many people got the specialty they wanted and their choice position). I say independent because schools skew the data and way they want (ie. all medical schools have "above average" step 1 scores). Just as they skew step 1 scores, I bet GPA/MCAT scores are also skewed how they want it to be...

This would never happen as the data needed to do this undertaking would be enormous. The best thing would be for the NRMP to release all the data and match lists for each student in the match as a searchable database (ie. scores, grades, match lists); unfrotunately this would probably be viewed as an invasion of privacy as you probably could figure out who each person was...unless the data was held back 5 years or so. This way, you could look at each person for each school, their step1/grades and how far they went down their match list.....now that would be the best. This way, schools would not be able to "skew" their data as it would be the official ERAS/NRMP data that applicants applied with.

 

[Siggy]

A true assessment of medical schools would be if an official independent agency that calculated gpa, mcats, acceptance rates, step 1 scores, clinical rotation options, residency placement (how many people got the specialty they wanted and their choice position).

Out of those, the one true things you can compare off of is Step 1 and 2 scores and shelf exams for schools that use them (i.e. not all schools use the same shelf exams). Undergrad GPA, MCAT score, and acceptance rates only indicate how popular the school is and the population base that the school accepts applications from (e.g. state schools that only accept in state students). Medical school GPA is hard because of different scoring systems (grades v percents v P/F v H/P/F, etc), different curriculum styles (PBL v systems v traditional), and grade inflation/test difficulty. What type of rotations are better than others? Does Nova automatically lose points because some of their rotations are in rural rotations (actually, to be fair, Nova has a required rural rotation because of their missions statement)?

Residency placement is always the fun one. The difficult ones are always going to have a low acceptance rate. If they could accommodate everyone then they wouldn't be difficult to get into, and thus wouldn't be special. So if you have a lot of people gunning for derm, you're going to lose points because not everyone is going to get their first place derm spot? What if the stars align and everyone wants to go into FP? Do they get 100% when all of their students match high on their match list?

 

[JaggerPlate]

UCSD doesn't have football. Our license plate blurb is "the smart ones".

Hahaha, yeah ... bet all those dumb jocks at UCLA and Cal Berkeley agree 🙄

 

[ChiDO]

Out of those, the one true things you can compare off of is Step 1 and 2 scores and shelf exams for schools that use them (i.e. not all schools use the same shelf exams). Undergrad GPA, MCAT score, and acceptance rates only indicate how popular the school is and the population base that the school accepts applications from (e.g. state schools that only accept in state students). Medical school GPA is hard because of different scoring systems (grades v percents v P/F v H/P/F, etc), different curriculum styles (PBL v systems v traditional), and grade inflation/test difficulty. What type of rotations are better than others? Does Nova automatically lose points because some of their rotations are in rural rotations (actually, to be fair, Nova has a required rural rotation because of their missions statement)?

Residency placement is always the fun one. The difficult ones are always going to have a low acceptance rate. If they could accommodate everyone then they wouldn't be difficult to get into, and thus wouldn't be special. So if you have a lot of people gunning for derm, you're going to lose points because not everyone is going to get their first place derm spot? What if the stars align and everyone wants to go into FP? Do they get 100% when all of their students match high on their match list?

That is why I said the NRMP should just release all students match lists and results a few years later. If the entire class gets their #1 spot in FM, then I would call that a 100% match. I'm not one of those naive pre-meds who only think ROAD specialties are the "omg so awesome match" at "popular" name schools.

I do agree that grading systems vary between schools, but once again, if the NRMP/ERAS released match lists results and the general applicant info (GPA/Class Rank/Step 1), then the schools couldn't skew the data. Obviously, this is only wishful thinking because this will never happen...🙄

 

[MSmentor018]

That is why I said the NRMP should just release all students match lists and results a few years later. If the entire class gets their #1 spot in FM, then I would call that a 100% match. I'm not one of those naive pre-meds who only think ROAD specialties are the "omg so awesome match" at "popular" name schools.

I do agree that grading systems vary between schools, but once again, if the NRMP/ERAS released match lists results and the general applicant info (GPA/Class Rank/Step 1), then the schools couldn't skew the data. Obviously, this is only wishful thinking because this will never happen...🙄

I didn't even look at my own school's match list but I did read the NRMP stats for my specialty, mainly because I gave a lecture on it. the only thing that matters is what interviews you got and how well you did on them. the rank list/matching is very individualized with plenty of personal variables mixed in. unless a giant questionnaire was done, I don't think anyone will have the true stats on why someone matched where. I can't find the thread but we had a good discussion about this last week