timeline in Ireland

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canucker

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Hi everyone,

I'm a longtime reader, first time poster. I'm a Canadian student looking abroad and I'm interested in going to school in Ireland. I have a couple of questions:

1) What's the "typical" timeline that NA students, who wish to return to NA, will follow? I've read in previous threads that most will write Step 1 in the summer of 3rd year; however, I recall seeing another thread that said that a NA grad would lose a year after graduation because of the scheduling of the later tests? Is there any truth to this? That would be really disadvantageous because of the huge amount of loans that are collecting interest.

2) When does the school year run? I've tried looking for that info but couldn't find it; how much time off do you get for the summer, do most people go back every year or do they stay in Ireland?

3) How does the clerkship phase compare to NA schools? Is there overnight call, etc.? I've been researching Australian schools as well and from what I gather the clerkship phase in Australia is not as rigorous or demanding as in NA and I was wondering if it was the same in Ireland.

Thanks for any help that you can offer me; I'm sure I'll come up with more questions later on!

Canucker

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Hi, just thought of a couple more questions:

1) I understand that the tests have negative marking (marks deducted for wrong MC); does this result in many students failing particular subjects? Is there any sort of remedial work, does the administration try to help you out, or are you basically on your own in this regard and you have to retake an entire subject?

2) Connected to this, what is the attrition rate at Irish schools? That's one of the concerns I had about Caribbean schools: that the attrition rate was relatively high.

Thanks again.
 
1) For those with degrees, it's a 5 year program (either in a new integrated 5 yr. program, or as a direct entrant into 2nd year). A lot take the USMLE summer of 4th year (your 3rd year here), or winter/summer of 5th year (the 4th year here). People who do it summer of 4th year won't lose a year after graduation, and few who return to the US right after graduation have difficulty with the time schedule. There are probably a few who didn't get their act together and don't apply in time, and some choose to spend their intern year here. But those who aim to get back to the US straight after graduation don't have trouble.


2) It depends what school you go to. I think UCD and RCSI start in late August/early-mid September, Trinity starts late September/early October and end in mid-June. Your summer time off depends what year you are and probably what school. 1st & 2nd years usually get 3+ months off depending when exams finish, 3rd years get about 3 months give or take a couple weeks, 4th & 5th years do electives so it depends how many electives you do and what you set up. You could have 1 month off, or 0 months, or 2 or whatever.

3) Not as demanding as NA. A few over-eager consultants may request that you go on call with them when they're on call, but they can't force you to. If you want to go on call, there's not a problem with it (like a lot of people like to do it if they get an A&E rotation), but there's not obligation. And to be honest, a lot of us don't even stay the entire day during rotations. I personally like it this way.
 
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Thanks for your replies leorl, they're much appreciated.
I have another question: how is the curriculum delivered? Is it didactic, PBL or a mixture of the two? Also, since the preclinical portion is learned over 3 years, rather than 2, I'm assuming that it's not 8-5 each day? Is this correct? How's a "typical" day look like? I tried looking for this info but wasn't able to find it.
Thanks again!
 
Again, it varies... some days you might have a really busy 9-5 if you have lectures in the morning then labs in the afternoon, but it won't be 9-5 every single day. Some years/terms you might get lucky and have like a half day on Friday or something like that. And it can also depend if you have classes/tutorials depending what group you're split up into. You can pretty much guarantee having a 9 am start every day, or every other day. Some courses run for two or 1.5 years, hence the "extra" pre-clinical year, but some of them are the same course you had the previous year, just taught in a different way. At least at my univ - it's kind of cool that way...you learn the material the first time around, then the 2nd time around it's taught in a more systems-based way and reinforces your knowledge (which was most likely forgotten over the summer anyway).

The programs are becoming more PBL... this is an area I don't have much experience in because my year in my university was the last to have traditional didactic teaching. They tried PBL for the year(s) below us, and it seems they're still having a couple teething problems, but it appears to be getting better. So in other words, there's a mix between PBL and didactic teaching, much like some of the US schools (i.e. not either strictly PBL or strictly traditional). There is much more focus on integration of coursework, which is good in concept, but the problems come when things get disorganized and disjointed.

Hope this helps
 
Hey Leorl,

I was wondering what you guys are doing upon graduation? I'm assuming you graduate around may-june, but if you're not ecfmg certified before match day you can't be ranked by the programs. So what do Irish grads wanting to come back to the US do for a year?
 
If you do well in school and have good board scores most Americans (not sure about Canadians) leave to come back to the US immediatly after their last year. If you don't match some people work or just take a year off.

I'm writing step 1 this summer (summer of third) and writing step 2 CS/CK in September 2006 since my school is adding pediatrics to fourth year and we won't have to study it independantly anymore.
 
Fair enough but that's besides the point, you can finish all the exams but you can't be ECFMG certified until after graduation and from programs I've talked to whether you're American or not, they won't rank you without ECFMG certification. Just wondering...
 
The Pill Counter said:
Fair enough but that's besides the point, you can finish all the exams but you can't be ECFMG certified until after graduation and from programs I've talked to whether you're American or not, they won't rank you without ECFMG certification. Just wondering...
You can apply without the ECFMG cert. If they see you're qualified to place in their program there should be no reason for you not to graduate in time. (RCSI's grad day this year is May 23)
 
NIQ said:
You can apply without the ECFMG cert. If they see you're qualified to place in their program there should be no reason for you not to graduate in time. (RCSI's grad day this year is May 23)


I've spoken to Mich State, SUNY Buffalo, Beth Israel NY and a handful of others, and while they will interview you without ECFMG certification, each one stated they will not rank students without ECFMG certification already in possession which means the student must have graduated. I've learned that a small proportion of programs won't even interview without certification, but if you're aware of programs that will rank you before you're certified, I'd certainly like to know who they are.

Not flaming, just posting food for thought, as I'm gearing up for 2006 match from australia and sharing some things I'm learning.
 
Some people are going to write step 3 in summer after third year, try to get an intern spot here in Ireland (I hear it's getting easier), write step 2 during that or just before, and then apply for the next year's match.

Cons: Was hard to get an Intern spot here and one more year before you're finished your residency

Pros: My friend made 65,000 Euros last year as an intern because of the mandatory pay for overtime from the european working directive. Can help cut into the student loans! Only him and another North American were offered a intern spot though.

As it stands now, you'd have to do some extra study to make up what you cover last half of final year so you can write step 2 in time to apply for a residency spot starting right after you graduate.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Sage880: You mean write Step 1 summer after third year, correct?

So, from what I gather, a year may be lost after graduation due to ECFMG certification. I checked the ECFMG site and your diploma has to be verified before you can take the requisite tests (meaning you have to graduate first) etc., and that will take some time. So how are some Irish grads able to start residency right after graduation? NIQ mentioned that some grads started residency right away without certification; is this residency and location dependent? As of now, I'm not really interested in competitive specialties and am looking primarily at FM. Would FM residencies take Irish grads who haven't been ECFMG certified?

I really appreciate your replies; as you can imagine going abroad is a very tough decision and I'm trying to inform myself the best I can. Cheers.
 
Sage880 said:
Some people are going to write step 3 in summer after third year, try to get an intern spot here in Ireland (I hear it's getting easier), write step 2 during that or just before, and then apply for the next year's match.

Cons: Was hard to get an Intern spot here and one more year before you're finished your residency

Pros: My friend made 65,000 Euros last year as an intern because of the mandatory pay for overtime from the european working directive. Can help cut into the student loans! Only him and another North American were offered a intern spot though.

As it stands now, you'd have to do some extra study to make up what you cover last half of final year so you can write step 2 in time to apply for a residency spot starting right after you graduate.

Your 'pro' is very short sighted. You are comparing your intern year salary to the salary of a first year US resident (approx. 40K USD). Your wopping 65K EUR salary seems like a lot from this perspective. However, what in fact you should be comparing the intern salary to is your lost earnings at the tail end of your career. By staying here one extra year, you delay completion of your US residency by one year, meaning that you will be earning a 'real' salary for one less year of your career.

With regards to the ECFMG certification, you don't need your ECFMG certificate to interview, be ranked, or even match. You only need the ECFMG certificate by your residency start date (usually July 1). What you do need by 'rank day' (around mid-February) is to be deemed eligible by ECFMG to participate in the match. To be eligible you must have passed Step 1, Step 2CK and Step 2CS. Results may take up to 6 weeks to be released, so that means you have to take these tests before the end of December.
 
Jammer said:
Your 'pro' is very short sighted.

Maybe not. Would you rush to take Step 2 in final year if it ment a bad score and a second choice residency spot because of it? Maybe taking a year here might make you more competitive and get you the spot you want (and the salary you want).

Regardless, obviously people want to get started with their residency. My point wasn't that staying for an intern year was some secret money making scheme. My point was that you can make decent money while taking the time to write step 2 if you feel that writing it in December of final year is rushing it.

From now on I will use the term "not negative" instead of "pro" if you think that is more accurate.

I think that's my current plan right now - do an intern year here if possible. I guess I'll see what happens to the years above me every year as they graduate. But my end goal is to take time to get good scores and end up in something I like instead of trying to rush into something just so I can gobble up all the money I can hungry, hungry hippo style.

Canucker: From what I can tell from the people who graduated last year, about half are doing a residency in the US now. I'd say you wouldn't have to wait a year if you had good scores and were applying to a FM program. I definetly have heard of people who have done it from here.
 
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