Timing of science classes

[jmugele]

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I've been out of school for 9 years, which means it's been 11 years since I've taken a science class. I'm a quick study, however, and I was able to score a 40 on the MCAT last August. How important is it to have recent science education when applying to a school? Does it matter that I haven't taken a course in a decade?

I know from Duke's website that prerequisites must have been taken in the past 7 years. Does anyone know if other schools have similar restrictions?

 

[run_4ever]

I've been out of school for 9 years, which means it's been 11 years since I've taken a science class. I'm a quick study, however, and I was able to score a 40 on the MCAT last August. How important is it to have recent science education when applying to a school? Does it matter that I haven't taken a course in a decade?

I know from Duke's website that prerequisites must have been taken in the past 7 years. Does anyone know if other schools have similar restrictions?

Congratulations on your 40.

I think requiring prerequisites within a certain timeframe varies by school. Since you mentioned Duke, yes they do want to see more recent work. However, I just looked into this with UNC. According to their admissions department, it does not matter to them as long as you have covered the requirements. I have a Biology class from 1991 on my transcript, and they said it is absolutely not a problem. I would recommend that you get in touch with the schools you have an interest in and just make sure you are giving them what they want. With that high score on the MCAT, I would be surprised if it makes a difference to most. Clearly you retained what you needed to do well.

One other thought...what is your GPA from 9 years ago? If it is less than stellar, you will need to take some courses to pull it up. I will be surprised if you are in that situation (with a 40 on the MCAT!).Best of luck.

 

[jmugele]

Congratulations on your 40.

I think requiring prerequisites within a certain timeframe varies by school. Since you mentioned Duke, yes they do want to see more recent work. However, I just looked into this with UNC. According to their admissions department, it does not matter to them as long as you have covered the requirements. I have a Biology class from 1991 on my transcript, and they said it is absolutely not a problem. I would recommend that you get in touch with the schools you have an interest in and just make sure you are giving them what they want. With that high score on the MCAT, I would be surprised if it makes a difference to most. Clearly you retained what you needed to do well.

One other thought...what is your GPA from 9 years ago? If it is less than stellar, you will need to take some courses to pull it up. I will be surprised if you are in that situation (with a 40 on the MCAT!).Best of luck.

Yeah, I was pretty surprised by my score since I hadn't been in school for a while. My GPA back then was pretty good, so it probably won't be an issue.

It's unfortunate, though, that some schools consider this a factor. Before I started researching this in depth, Duke had been near the top of my list.

 

[efex101]

I would call ALL medical schools that you will be applying to and get the info from them. Some *do* want proof of recent coursework (not necessarily the pre-reqs but maybe upper level bio/chem/math) but some will not care with your great MCAT score.

 

[QofQuimica]

I am in a very similar position to you, and I actually called some of the schools I was interested in and asked them. (Maybe my situtation is even a little worse, since not only are my undergrad science classes ten years old, but every single one of them is also pass/fail!) I am not even going to try applying to schools like Duke that have strict requirements about grades and recency of pre-requisites. But, there are plenty of schools that don't care, or that are willing to take my graduate school grades instead. Having an MCAT score like yours can reassure them that you have a good background in your basic sciences. When you talk to the schools, you will get a good idea of how they feel about your application; my responses ranged the gamut from lukewarm to very encouraging about my candidacy. So my advice would be to ask each school, and then apply to the places that tell you that they want you. 😀

On a somewhat different note, I'm sick of hearing this idiotic rumor that non-traditional students don't do as well on the MCAT as traditionals. WTG on the 40, jmugele!

 

[jmugele]

I've been out of school for 9 years, which means it's been 11 years since I've taken a science class. I'm a quick study, however, and I was able to score a 40 on the MCAT last August. How important is it to have recent science education when applying to a school? Does it matter that I haven't taken a course in a decade?

I know from Duke's website that prerequisites must have been taken in the past 7 years. Does anyone know if other schools have similar restrictions?

I'll start contacting schools and posting their responses to this question in this thread. If anyone has contacted any schools about this or similar issues, I'd appreciate the post here.

 

[efex101]

I think that the statement about non-trads not doing as well on the MCAT is not a rumor....it comes from the aamc website...I will try to dig that out. Obviously this is not true for ALL non-trads as we see with the above poster.

 

[efex101]

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/sum2004.pdf

 

[jmugele]

I'll start contacting schools and posting their responses to this question in this thread. If anyone has contacted any schools about this or similar issues, I'd appreciate the post here.

Here's the statement from the University of Rochester:

"As long as you have met all of our premed requirements, it does not matter
how long ago you completed them. "

 

[jmugele]

I'll start contacting schools and posting their responses to this question in this thread. If anyone has contacted any schools about this or similar issues, I'd appreciate the post here.

Posting from Stanford:

Stanford is not concerned about when you took your requirements. Your
current MCAT scores and your undergrad GPA are very important.

 

[jmugele]

I'll start contacting schools and posting their responses to this question in this thread. If anyone has contacted any schools about this or similar issues, I'd appreciate the post here.

UCSF States:

UCSF does not have a time limit on completion of the premedical requirements. It will not negatively affect your application in any way to have completed your classes nine years ago.

 

[jmugele]

I'll start contacting schools and posting their responses to this question in this thread. If anyone has contacted any schools about this or similar issues, I'd appreciate the post here.

Here's the statement from Washington U:

"Generally applicants should have taken some course work within the two years before applying. I suggest that you consider taking a more contemporary genetics or biochemistry course before your apply.

Thank you for your interest in Washington University School of Medicine."

I guess that rules that out.

There are other posts in this forum about schools that are friendly or not to non-trads. Doesn't this kind of policy by default limit the number of non-trads that apply?

 

[Law2Doc]

Here's the statement from Washington U:

"Generally applicants should have taken some course work within the two years before applying. I suggest that you consider taking a more contemporary genetics or biochemistry course before your apply.

Thank you for your interest in Washington University School of Medicine."

I guess that rules that out.

There are other posts in this forum about schools that are friendly or not to non-trads. Doesn't this kind of policy by default limit the number of non-trads that apply?

Not those of us non-trads who retook the sciences. For what it's worth, when starting my post-bacc, my program director advised me to retake all the prereqs as for many schools they would be deemed "expired". In general schools like to see that you had some success in science courses of recent vintage. (Probably less of an issue for folks who worked in the sciences rather than the humanities, though).

 

[efex101]

Some schools also have a vested interest in accepting students that will be able to handle the rigors of 32cr/semester/block/whatever. This is best demonstrated via proof of recent science coursework (not meaning that you cannot handle it, but with 1000's of applications pouring in..) I would also be interested to know if you were to pose the same question but with a lower MCAT score what the answer would be....(of course this means nothing if you are not letting schools know your awesome score..) I think that the answer may be different if your score was a 25 and contacting schools about having no recent coursework and is that okay versus with a 40 but I could be completely off base here.

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't think you are off base, efex. The schools I have spoken to wanted to know that I have a solid grounding in the sciences, and they wanted to know that I can handle the rigor of med school, as you said. A 40 MCAT score suggests (at least to me!) that the student does not really need to repeat his science classes in terms of having a poor science background. Now I know that some schools still will require this, because after all, a rule is a rule, but in that case, perhaps those schools are not the best fit for someone in this situation. I also found that the schools felt better about my having taken graduate courses, and several agreed that those grades could count as my "pre-reqs". So doing some graduate work in the sciences is also an option.

 

[QofQuimica]

Well, I guess I have to stand corrected; thanks for the link, efex. But at the same time, it's kind of food for thought, because there aren't very many older testtakers relative to younger ones. I'd have thought one or two 40s would skew the average! Maybe what happens is that older students tend to score closer to the extremes (really high or really low) rather than distributing at the average? The SD is also larger, though not by much.

 

[jmugele]

Some schools also have a vested interest in accepting students that will be able to handle the rigors of 32cr/semester/block/whatever. This is best demonstrated via proof of recent science coursework (not meaning that you cannot handle it, but with 1000's of applications pouring in..) I would also be interested to know if you were to pose the same question but with a lower MCAT score what the answer would be....(of course this means nothing if you are not letting schools know your awesome score..) I think that the answer may be different if your score was a 25 and contacting schools about having no recent coursework and is that okay versus with a 40 but I could be completely off base here.

You're right, I did send them my scores when asking the question. It does raise the question of what they would say to someone with lower scores.

This whole thread makes me wonder about the difficulty of courses in medical school. How up to date on recent science does the new med student have to be? If we've been out of it for a while, is it easy enough to play catch up on background material (as I did for the MCAT)? I guess my question is, how much background knowledge do the classes require?

 

[Law2Doc]

You're right, I did send them my scores when asking the question. It does raise the question of what they would say to someone with lower scores.

This whole thread makes me wonder about the difficulty of courses in medical school. How up to date on recent science does the new med student have to be? If we've been out of it for a while, is it easy enough to play catch up on background material (as I did for the MCAT)? I guess my question is, how much background knowledge do the classes require?

From what I've heard, the prereqs are really just a hurdle, and you barely need any prereq info as background knowlege. I've been told by recent med grads that med school is very good about teaching you everything they expect you to know, and what overlap there is from bio and orgo can quickly be refreshed on your own. It might pay to keep any basic science texts handy if you still have them and they were any good, but otherwise I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[efex101]

Although background knowledge is by no means "essential" it will help you a lot when wading through hundreds of slides at the speed of light for just one class. A good working knowledge of cell and molecular biology will come pretty handy IMHO but you can easily pick this up by reading The Cell (the book IMHO for cell/molec bio) on your own or keeping it handy. Medical school is not intrinsically difficult but it is the speed and the amount of material that makes it hard.

 

[jmugele]

Although background knowledge is by no means "essential" it will help you a lot when wading through hundreds of slides at the speed of light for just one class. A good working knowledge of cell and molecular biology will come pretty handy IMHO but you can easily pick this up by reading The Cell (the book IMHO for cell/molec bio) on your own or keeping it handy. Medical school is not intrinsically difficult but it is the speed and the amount of material that makes it hard.

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely check out the book recommendation.

 

[jmugele]

I'll start contacting schools and posting their responses to this question in this thread. If anyone has contacted any schools about this or similar issues, I'd appreciate the post here.

I just spoke to an admissions person at Michigan (my local school) about this. Before I even mentioned my MCAT score, she said that the age of the prerequisites didn't matter at all.

However, when it came to volunteer activities she stressed that it was very important to have recent activities in place.

 

[QofQuimica]

I just spoke to an admissions person at Michigan (my local school) about this. Before I even mentioned my MCAT score, she said that the age of the prerequisites didn't matter at all.

However, when it came to volunteer activities she stressed that it was very important to have recent activities in place.

I was given the same advice. In fact, I will be getting up at 5AM tomorrow so that I can go volunteer in the hospital. lol. I actually do have quite a bit of medical volunteering experience from college, and even a couple of medically related jobs (one in a doctor's office, one for Easter Seal Society), but they are not RECENT.

 

[jmugele]

I was given the same advice. In fact, I will be getting up at 5AM tomorrow so that I can go volunteer in the hospital. lol. I actually do have quite a bit of medical volunteering experience from college, and even a couple of medically related jobs (one in a doctor's office, one for Easter Seal Society), but they are not RECENT.

5 AM sounds like fun.

I mentioned my current volunteer activities at a walk-in clinic to this admissions counselor, but I explained that I was mainly doing front-office type of stuff. She literally scoffed at it. I'm now looking to doctor friends to see who will let me do some more shadowing.

It's frustrating that I'm having to volunteer or work with doctors for the wrong motives -- just to impress the adcom.

 

[QofQuimica]

5 AM sounds like fun.

I mentioned my current volunteer activities at a walk-in clinic to this admissions counselor, but I explained that I was mainly doing front-office type of stuff. She literally scoffed at it. I'm now looking to doctor friends to see who will let me do some more shadowing.

It's frustrating that I'm having to volunteer or work with doctors for the wrong motives -- just to impress the adcom.

I know what you mean. I can understand that they want to see some shadowing so that they know that you have some idea of what you're getting yourself into. I can understand that they want to see some volunteering so that they know that you are a caring and compassionate person. I can even understand that they want to see you do MEDICALLY RELATED volunteering because that does directly pertain to what you'll be doing as a physician (though this last requirement strikes me as being a bit nitpicky). But what I don't understand is why any of it only counts if you do it during the one year that you are actually applying to medical school.

 

[efex101]

I think that although it may only be one year it still will give you a "broad" view although not very realistic IMHO of what physicians are exposed to and what they do day to day. You would be surprised how many pre-meds have literally no clue of what medicine entails and base a lot of their knowledge from ER (this is not a joke either)...

 

[jmugele]

Here's Mayo's response:

"Mayo Medical School looks for students with excellent academic records in a breadth of educational experiences. It will not matter to the Committee how long ago you had taken the prerequisite course work, it is important that you have a good GPA and have taken the MCAT within the last three years."

 

[QofQuimica]

I think that although it may only be one year it still will give you a "broad" view although not very realistic IMHO of what physicians are exposed to and what they do day to day. You would be surprised how many pre-meds have literally no clue of what medicine entails and base a lot of their knowledge from ER (this is not a joke either)...

Yes, I understand that, and I know that's true first-hand; I've had several students who are just as you've described. So I'm not arguing against these requirements, not in the least. I just don't understand why so much importance is placed on them being RECENT, which I interpret to mean "within the last 12 months". But what if that one year is but a tiny fraction of one's experience with the medical field, and it's not even the most interesting fraction? What I want to understand is, why don't any earlier medically-related experiences seem to count as much as the candystriping that one does during the application year?

 

[efex101]

Hmmm, now *that* I do not understand either. I would assume that any experience would count but "maybe" due to the changing nature of medicine (it has changed a lot from let's say ten years ago) they want to know that you have been exposed to the way medicine is practiced now. Many folks may assume that physicians have tons of time to get to interview patients and interact with them and of course we know that this is incorrect. They may want to make sure that you would not be better suited for other health care related areas...but the bottom line is they just might want you to jump through X amount of hoops to see how much you really want this...although I hope this is not the case for the volunteering bit...

 

[jmugele]

Hmmm, now *that* I do not understand either. I would assume that any experience would count but "maybe" due to the changing nature of medicine (it has changed a lot from let's say ten years ago) they want to know that you have been exposed to the way medicine is practiced now. Many folks may assume that physicians have tons of time to get to interview patients and interact with them and of course we know that this is incorrect. They may want to make sure that you would not be better suited for other health care related areas...but the bottom line is they just might want you to jump through X amount of hoops to see how much you really want this...although I hope this is not the case for the volunteering bit...

I think it is very much the case for volunteering that they want you to jump through hoops. The couple of times I've talked with advisors, I explained that I had significant shadowing/volunteering experience earlier on (10 years ago), but nothing recently. They didn't ask the extent of it, the type it was or anything -- just flatly stated that the experience had to be recent.

I don't really mind jumping through the hoops -- you have to for anything you want in life. But I still like to complain about the irrationality of it all.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think it is very much the case for volunteering that they want you to jump through hoops. The couple of times I've talked with advisors, I explained that I had significant shadowing/volunteering experience earlier on (10 years ago), but nothing recently. They didn't ask the extent of it, the type it was or anything -- just flatly stated that the experience had to be recent.

I don't really mind jumping through the hoops -- you have to for anything you want in life. But I still like to complain about the irrationality of it all.

I have been getting the same responses at the schools that I've been contacting. I'm not even really complaining about it, actually, but I am just wanting to UNDERSTAND the rationale behind it. Even if that rationale is as lousy as "it's just a hoop that you have to jump through....or else."

 

[efex101]

I guess that in their defense (being devil's advocate here) they want to accept folks that have that "altruistic" streak in them. They could literally fill all medical school classes with folks with great GPA/MCAT/LOR but they want more than that. They want folks that will be willing to give back to their communities in some fashion and recent volunteering proves this (in their eyes although we know that many volunteer to jump through that hoop). Volunteering from 10 years ago is great but does not prove to them what that you are "altruistic" now....I guess this is my take on it but I could be totally off base...

 

[QofQuimica]

Ok, I'll buy that argument in terms of why it's necessary to volunteer. Heck, I'll even go so far as to agree with the med schools that people who have an extended history of volunteering, up to and including the present, would be more likely to be altruistic and therefore would be more likely to have the qualities desirable in future physicians. But in that case, why must the "recent" volunteering specifically be candystriping? What is wrong with non-hospital volunteering, assuming that the person also has had some clinical experience at some point?

I don't know about jmugele, but in my case, I've been volunteering since I was a teenager....I even candystriped for several years in high school and college. I've tutored kids, cleaned kennels at the Humane Society, and helped foreigners learn English. Right now I mentor kids and train students in the lab....BUT, in my current volunteering, there is not a hospital involved, and therefore I was specifically told to start candystriping again. So I am now doing this candystriping on top of the volunteer work I had already been doing all along. I don't mind doing it, although I admit that I don't love having to wake up at 5AM. 😛 But I just don't understand why it is so important to the medical schools that I do it, given my history of volunteering and clinical experience (I've worked in two medical-field jobs and am involved with a clinical trial now).

 

[efex101]

I think that they require recent hospital type is to make sure that you know what you are getting into right *now* versus how medicine was ten years ago? although if you are involved in clinical trials it kind of makes no sense to ask for more IMHO...

 

[FireR1E4]

Hi, I have a couple quick questions:
As far as volunteering goes, do most schools still require it even if the applicant currently works in the medical field and gets clinical experience and has patient contact every day? Also, do schools want the prereqs to be taken all at once, on a full-time schedule? Or is it OK to take one or two classes at a time while working full-time?
Thanks!

 

[jmugele]

I think that they require recent hospital type is to make sure that you know what you are getting into right *now* versus how medicine was ten years ago? although if you are involved in clinical trials it kind of makes no sense to ask for more IMHO...

I guess the lesson I'm learning from this is that application screening is more formulaic and less holistic. The standard line medical schools give you is that they try to look at the whole person and numbers only mean so much. But because they try to pin your experiences down to a certain date range and a certain type, then it seems like they're trying to compare you to some template they have for the ideal candidate.

 

[jmugele]

Hi, I have a couple quick questions:
As far as volunteering goes, do most schools still require it even if the applicant currently works in the medical field and gets clinical experience and has patient contact every day? Also, do schools want the prereqs to be taken all at once, on a full-time schedule? Or is it OK to take one or two classes at a time while working full-time?
Thanks!

I'm by no means the expert, but here's how I understand it: it sounds like you have enough clinical/medical work that you don't need to do that type of volunteer work. However, you may want to still do other volunteer work to show your altruistic side.

Also, I don't think it matters if you take your prereqs all at once or spread out as long as you can show somewhere on your transcript that you can handle a rigorous workload. One of the things they look at from your old college transcripts is how many hours/semester you're taking.