tips for efficiency?

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lilnoelle

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Does anyone have advice on how to pick up speed with the H/P? I know its relatively normal to be slow as a new third year student, but I am quite a bit slower than my peers. I'm trying to pick up speed and it just doesn't seem to be working. Part of it is that I enjoy talking to people. Im also not exactly sure of what a focused H/P is supposed to include for various complaints. I have been working on these aspects and I am still much slower than my classmates.
 
As a medical student it is expected that your H&Ps will take longer. Not only will they take longer, but they will be far more thorough than "necessary." The point of this exercise is to teach you how to figure out what areas of the interview are truly needed and which ones are not. You are entirely correct when you say it's normal to be slow at the start of third year. On my first rotation (IM) it generally took me about and hour and a half to do a full admission work-up. Now my medicine H&Ps take me about 20 minutes and I do pre-op H&Ps in about 5-10 minutes. It's the nature of the learning curve.
 
They take me a long time as well. Part of the problem is that when I try to expedite the interview and writeup I am criticized as not being thorough enough. So there is no way out as of now.
 
I know its normal to be slow, but I am quite a but slower than my classmates, even after changing some things. I think I will probably always be a little slow because I really like spending a lot of time with my patients. Even if that's the case, I have to figure out how to pick up speed so I can keep up (or at least be close) with my classmates.
 
There's always half-assing it and making things up. That works sometimes.
 
Does anyone have advice on how to pick up speed with the H/P? I know its relatively normal to be slow as a new third year student, but I am quite a bit slower than my peers. I'm trying to pick up speed and it just doesn't seem to be working. Part of it is that I enjoy talking to people. Im also not exactly sure of what a focused H/P is supposed to include for various complaints. I have been working on these aspects and I am still much slower than my classmates.

1) You will become faster as you begin to develop a routine for how you do your H&Ps. It's probably taking you a bit of time to remember what to do next in your physical exam.

2) Nothing wrong with chatting with your patients....but it DOES take up a lot of time. You could try doing your H&P without letting yourself get distracted by conversation, but coming by later in the day (when you're done all your work) for a quick chat.

3) You'll learn what to include in your focused H&P as you do more of them. Don't stress too much about missing something - your H&Ps will get more comprehensive as you get more experienced.
 
You may find doing some things simultaneously helpful. For example, rather than doing an ROS and THEN the PE, while you are examining their abdomen, ask them about the usual ROS complaints, and so on. Obviously you can't have them talking when your listening for things, but you'll develop a system to get around that.

May I ask how you know you are slower than your classmates? Are they telling you how fast they are (if so I'd take that with a grain of salt)?

You will get faster as you learn a system which works for you and what things are more important (ie, asking about rare symptoms is probably not worthwhile except in the case of diagnostic dilemmas).
 
May I ask how you know you are slower than your classmates? Are they telling you how fast they are (if so I'd take that with a grain of salt)?

By comparing how many patients my classmates (in the same clinic) see to how many I see.
We also have recently had a S/P in which we were given 20 minutes for H/P and 10 minutes for writeup. I wasn't even close to being done with either H/P or writeup on the first one, did a little better on the second but still needed another five minutes for the second physical and another two for the writeup.
The following clinic I was determined to be better and had a timer go off every 10 minutes (vibrate) in order to keep track of time and I still only saw 2 patients when the other two gals saw 3. Don't think I'm being to hard on myself about this. I know there are a great many things I do well and know that I will improve substantially in the next year. Its not so much that I feel that I feel I am doing a bad job as it is that I are this as a real thing I need to work on in order to improve (and also to see more patients cuz ~4 per day doesn't add up real fast)
 
With a focused physical do you check out all the systems even those not involved in the complaint? For instance do you always listen to the heart and lungs?
My "typical" physical involves eyes, mouth, neck, listening to the heart and lungs, abdomen, and checking lower extremities for edema. I would also focus on anything specific to the complaint (although that doesn't take much time because I tend to forget the additional parts of the specific exams.)
Perhaps its pertinent to mention that I'm planning on doing family practice.
 
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My routine for a focused physical is to start with a screening exam:
HEENT: just look (to be able to write AT/NC, anicteric)
Listen to heart (4 positions), lungs (just at bilateral bases in an ambulatory patient, anteriorly only in an in patient), abdomen (observe if distended, then press once in each of four quadrants)
Feel both feet (to write "warm and well perfused")... also so you don't fail to notice the bilateral above the knee amputations or anything like that 😉

Then I do whatever more detailed exam I need to to given the complaint, or given any abnormalities on the screening exam.

It takes about two minutes to do a physical exam assuming you don't need to do any specialized maneuvers like measure a pulsus paradoxus or something.

As far as enjoying talking to patients, this is like chatting with customers in any other line of work -- it's necessary to some extent to keep business going, but you can't let it dominate the way you spend your time. You have work to do. The good news is, at some point you will realize that you can either get 20 minutes of sleep or chat it up with your patients, and you'll optimize that way.

That said, I strongly disagree with the emphasis on third year medical students being efficient -- I think the emphasis should be on being thorough, learning what is normal and what is not. Part of this is by doing "nonrequired" parts of the physical exam so you learn what normal is.

Anka
 
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If this is on real patients in the hospital, if possible, pull their old H&P's from previous stays.

It's much easier to say "You were here in January, what's changed since?" and "is this list of medicines up to date?" Then to start from scratch. Patients appreciate it too, actually. If they don't have any previous stuff then usually they're pretty healthy and it should be short. Every once in a while you do get caught when Uncle Elmer from Kentucky is visiting his niece in Washington and he's got every health problem under the sun and has never been seen at your hospital.

Also, if they're struggling with details of their history (what drugs they take, what surgeries they've had etc.) sometimes it's just best to caught their losses and say "I'll contact your primary care physician". Attendings understand that this is legitimate and don't view this as you "cheating". Just be sure to ask about the "big ones" that could be a big problem like steroids, insulin, etc.
 
I don't doubt for a minute lilnoelle that you are thorough and doing a wonderful job. And as noted above, I'm not so sure that as a young medical student that you need to be focusing on efficiency...after all, you need to get the basics down first. But since you asked, here are some additional thoughts:

- a focused exam is just that; unless the patient has H&N symptoms/complaints or obvious signs, I would not do anything more than look for icterus, extraocular movement impairment, etc. (now in my practice I DO examine the neck, but that's because of the high possibility of nodal disease)

- its easy to listen to the heart and lungs at the same time and most patients won't need provocative exercises, percussion, etc. Obviously if this is their system of complaint you spend more time here.

- abdomen; well as a surgeon I often am dismayed at the lack of attention to this system, particularly exams which seem to involve not actually LOOKING at the belly. Patient do forget what surgeries they've had...while it sounds like an urban legend its not rare to find a patient who says he's got no medical problems and find a median sternotomy scar or midline laparotomy scar. If the patient presents with abdominal symptoms, it will help your differential a lot if you see a scar which might represent lack of an appendix or gallbladder.

- extremities; a quick look (to make sure they're there), and feel for warmth is fine, unless the patient is a vasculopath, then you might want to check for pulses (but again, if this is not the system involved, then you are going beyond the focused exam)

So the basics I would consider are:

- overall appearance; does the patient look sick? Are there any outstanding findings - scleral icterus, smell of tobacco, tremor?
- heart and lungs; standard examination. Expand if this is the system of complaint.
abdomen - look for scars, palpate the quadrants; listening for bowel sounds is not necessary unless this system is involved
- ext; as above, look for their presence or absence; warmth, signs of chronic vascular disease

Expand your examination as you see fit based on patient complaints and your findings.

Where do you think you are slower - examination or ROS? The list of ROS questions can be quite lengthy and you have to learn to separate out what is likely and what isn't. Doing the ROS simulataneous with your examination will save some time.

The suggestion above about looking through the patient's old chart is an excellent one; it can help you guide the conversation. Finally, a good skill is to be able to lead patients back to the problem at hand. Its hard to interrupt people but frankly some patients will start to tell you about their childhood medical history which has no relation to their acute problem or will go on and on about a family member.

At any rate, you will get faster as you gain more experience and I wouldn't worry about it right now unless your faculty has said something about it. Who's to know whether or not your classmates are doing a good job, just because they're faster than you?
 
The above advice has been very helpful. Thank you!

My history is definitely the lengthy part of my H/P. I think doing the ROS while doing the exam will make a big difference. Also, I probably spend more time on the HPI than I need to (asking for other concerns/associated symptoms is good, but not if it means I do three HPI's for three different concerns instead of just one).

I did get one poor eval last rotation and my slowness was part of it. As for the other three evals from last rotation, I haven't seen them yet, so I don't know how they look. Otherwise, no one has said anything about it, but it seems like we're always running behind in clinic and I'm generally seeing at least one fewer patient than the others or I'm the last person still doing a H/P and they're waiting on me. Like I said, no one has said anything, but I still feel the need to improve - besides, I've got two kiddos at home that keep me busy, its hard to find any time to read. I'm hoping as I speed up, I'll be able to find more time to read during the day or at least be able to get home earlier.
 
Also, I probably spend more time on the HPI than I need to (asking for other concerns/associated symptoms is good, but not if it means I do three HPI's for three different concerns instead of just one).

Ooohh. Yeah, that's definitely going to slow you down.

I think learning how not to get side tracked is really hard to learn, but important - and it will definitely help you speed up.

HPIs don't need to be HUGELY detailed either, particularly not for the more run-of-the-mill IM complaints - just location, duration, quality, associated sxs, exacerbating/relieving factors, and a basic sense of the chronology of the complaint. You don't need to go into exhaustive detail for a simple community acquired PNA or anything.
 
it's better to miss stuff and see more patients. You have no idea what is and is not important at this point, and you have crappy differentials. So just ask a few questions that you think might be relevant, and move on. When you present to the doc he will point out everything you did wrong and then you will do it correctly the next time. And don't let patients ramble. Just interrupt them. Or use the time they are rambling to think about your differential and what you want to ask next. Don't spend more than like 2 seconds on the social or family history. Please, do not draw out any geneology charts.
 
In outpatient clinic definitely don't ask "is there anything else you have been concerned about." They are not usually set up for this. That's probably what's holding you back at this point. Be complete with the complaint that brought the patient into the visit and unless it seems like a life threatening thing that the patient brings up on their own, have them set up another appointment to address it (you might mention it to the attending in case you don't know to be concerned). 15 minutes is not enough time for three chief complaints! Also, tricks like asking family history with the CC in mind can save time, like "are there any heart problems in your family?" as opposed to "any medical problems in your family?" ROS during the PE is a huge time saver. The point is not to be the best, most complete doctor they've ever seen and tease out everything they've been worrying about since they saw a doctor last, it's to address the problem that they've brought to you and get them out the door and back to their regular life with some sort of solution. They can come back again if needed!

As for knowing what to ask, you will likely ask too many things at first but also forget important ones. That's why we do clinical training. As you realize what questions your attendings and residents ask you, you will figure out what is needed for a complete history for each CC and start being more focused and efficient. You might think about asking your attendings for specific feedback too because they might be noticing what you are doing too much of and have ideas for improvement. And remember, it's like the second month of 3rd year. Give yourself a little bit of a break!

Just wanted to add that you might think about psych if you really like taking time to talk to your patients. Psychiatrists get to do this for money. Family practice physicians are paid NOT to spend this time. It's sad but true. Just something to think about as you progress through your 3rd year. Good luck!
 
Just wanted to add that you might think about psych if you really like taking time to talk to your patients. Psychiatrists get to do this for money. Family practice physicians are paid NOT to spend this time. It's sad but true. Just something to think about as you progress through your 3rd year. Good luck!
Yeah, Psych has always been on my list. However, what I've gathered from talking to Psych residents is that Psychiatrists do very little therapy anymore and basically don't spend a lot of time talking with their patients. I was thinking of maybe double boarding in FM/psych or just taking lots of psych electives in residency but then I wouldn't be able to do many procedures which will be useful in rural primary care. Oh well, I guess I just can't do it all.
 
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