Tired of reading that pharmacists "don't make much money"

[PositivePharmD]

I've been reading the SDN forums for a while now and just felt compelled to create a thread concerning what I have been reading consistently in several threads- that is, the claim that "pharmacists don't make much money."

I graduated in 2011, work for a chain, and live in South Florida [Miami]. I am a 26 y/o guy and want to say that even though I owe $160,000, I have plenty of money to live a nice and comfortable lifestyle. I live in a high rise waterfront condominium with fitness center, pool, spa, and other amenities and pay nearly $1,800 per month for rent. I am also leasing a Lexus. The point here is that I am living very comfortably and within my means as a pharmacist.

I feel that the only reason those of you pharmacists on this forum make the claim that pharmacist pay is "not much" are saying this is because you are slaving yourself away to pay off a six figure debt. I read a post somewhere that one pharmacist is paying 2,500 per month and is worried and complaining that such a payment doesn't leave much room for more. Well, guess what? NO ONE is telling you, commanding you, or forcing you to pay off your hefty student loans in ten years. NO ONE. The only reason you guys are not seeing how much money you're truly making is because you have tied yourself in chains.

There is no need to pay exorbitant sums of money per month in order to pay off that loan in ten years. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do it. I am taking my time and will certainly take well over ten years to pay off my current debt. I am limiting myself to paying no more than a thousand dollars per month. Sure, in the end, I'm perfectly aware that I'll be paying a lot more money in interest, but you know what? I'd rather pay more money in interest rather than having to sacrifice god knows how many more years in order to rush to pay off the loan before I can finally enjoy the fruits of my hard work in school.

I guess the point of this thread is that NO ONE is forcing us pharmacists to sacrifice ourselves and pay off these loans in ten years or less. NO ONE is forcing you to live like a pauper, move back in with parents, and take other measures. Remember, you are young only once. Make sure to pat yourself on the back, reward yourself by yourself a nice place, car, take a vacation, etc... and to hell with Sallie Mae because in the end, they don't care about you.

Personally, I feel I've sacrificed enough just by being in school for eight years after high school and that it is time for me to enjoy living well. I understand those of you pharmacists with financial obligations such as children and that your circumstances may be different. But I feel my points present a fresh and valid perspective.

If you continue to sacrifice and delay personal gratification, you will be older before you know it and wonder why you postponed your material/lifestyle dreams all in the name of a loan. So, final words: Pay your loan little by little, live the lifestyle you want as long as you can afford it, and always remember, if for some reason you die or become disabled and the loan has still not been paid off, screw it: The loan dies or will become nullified upon your death or disability.

Always remember the US owes trillions and this country is in no rush to pay off its debts. Enough said.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rph3664]

I'm glad you're doing well, but truthfully, there's a LOT to be said about being debt-free. Do you plan to have children? If you do, you NEED to get those student loans paid off before you have them. What if you lose your job, for whatever reason? What if you want to buy a house?

etc.

 

[vasilisa]

Where is the "like" button?

 

[SWSF]

I graduated in 2011, work for a chain, and live in South Florida [Miami]. I am a 26 y/o guy and want to say that even though I owe $160,000

Assuming the standard 6.7% interest rate, you can pay $1840/month for 10 years ($61,000 in interest) or $1040/month for 30 years ($215,500 in interest). You decide.

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

remember the US owes trillions and this country is in no rush to pay off its debts. Enough said.

Seriously?

 

[jasonkido]

I guess to each his own. My brother and I are pharmacist and we elected to pay our student loans in under a year which we both were able to since our debt was not quite six figures. My sister on the other hand had slightly higher debt and decided to pay it off slowly. She spends more a lot more money and goes on more vacations, goes out with friends, nice car and nice house. Theres not a wrong choice. Depends on what you want to do.

 

[rxmommy7]

My guess is you are single with no kids.

 

[PositivePharmD]

My guess is you are single with no kids.

I'm not single, I have a girlfriend. Of course, no kids though. Why is it that people with children have to be financially strapped and have no money for living a comfortable life? Then they complain of no money lol. There are plenty of young married professionals in my building with children. Eh, makes me not want to even have children in the future if I won't be able to live comfortably.

 

[Eichhoernchen]

You're living my ideal life, PositivePharmD. And yes, I am single with no kids and planning to stay that way. The no kids part, at least.

 

[PositivePharmD]

You're living my ideal life, PositivePharmD. And yes, I am single with no kids and planning to stay that way. The no kids part, at least.

I think kids are alright once you have enjoyed your life first. Once you have finished splurging and gotten this out of your system, go ahead and waste money on diapers, baby formula, live in a shtty apartment or house, be sleep deprived, drive a mediocre mini-van, and all the other works. Remember, if you don't do the above, you are considered selfish.

So, just enjoy your salary. Please remember that people everywhere will always complain of their salary. No amount of money is ever enough. I can't believe people making 100k have the audacity to cry out it's not much money. Even if they were making 200 k, it still wouldn't be enough. Ask yourself this question: If most pharmacists on SDN state their salary isn't much, how is that the average joe in America, making thirty grand a year, makes it? We're all better off and can afford much more than most Americans. Just some people are more frugal than others and some like to spend more. I am part of the latter group.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I'm not single, I have a girlfriend. Of course, no kids though. Why is it that people with children have to be financially strapped and have no money for living a comfortable life? Then they complain of no money lol. There are plenty of young married professionals in my building with children. Eh, makes me not want to even have children in the future if I won't be able to live comfortably.

You have have children and live comfortably.

 

[WhiteSnows]

What if you lose your job tomorrow?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

What if you lose your job tomorrow?

What if you get hit by a bus tomorrow? what's your point?

 

[joetrisman]

I think a lot of it is misperception. Having enough money can't make you happy, but not having enough can make you sad. You must live within your means. But more importantly, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, once your basics are taken care of, you must strive for more out of your job than a paycheck to be happy. I know if I end up where I want to be in pharmacy, I couldn't honestly care less if they paid me 80k or 130k, I'd still be happy as a clam.

 

[Ackj]

What if you get hit by a bus tomorrow? what's your point?

No loans to repay. That's the ultimate repayment plan there.


To the original topic: aside from loans, I don't really know what I'll do with a salary that is literally 5-6 times what I'm currently making. I don't think I'm living the stereotypical "poor college student" life either. Hell, my parents combined make something like $60k and I'd say we've always had a pretty decent life.

 

[SuperDuperSuper]

I agree with the title of the OP, but not with his methods or even his basic concept.
In fact, you couldn't be more wrong, OP. Just because you pay less per month on your debt, doesn't mean that you're paying less. I wonder how surprised you'd be if you actually calculated how much more you'll end up paying the minimum on your debt, instead of (quite literally) paying as much of it off as early as you can. Those pay-it-off-in-ten-years pharmacists are right, and you're wrong, plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, those of us that don't like debt are not trying to tell you what to do. They say ignorance is bliss for a reason, and if being ignorant of your true debt makes you happy, then go for it.

I think what a lot of people don't realize is that it's not about how much you make. It is about what you do with the money you make.
You can make $250K/year, and still be no better off than a new grad making $90K.

We had a financial speaker present at one of our student forum presentations, and it amazed me how not everyone was aware of basic financial concepts.

 

[Shnurek]

No loans to repay. That's the ultimate repayment plan there.


To the original topic: aside from loans, I don't really know what I'll do with a salary that is literally 5-6 times what I'm currently making. I don't think I'm living the stereotypical "poor college student" life either. Hell, my parents combined make something like $60k and I'd say we've always had a pretty decent life.

Same here my combined parents income is also around 60k and I live with them (separate entrance though - connected studio). I drive a 2011 car, I live in NYC, I go on ~2 vacations a year and my school is $18,000 in-state tuition. Its about finding loopholes (legal ones) and being prudent with your money.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Good old affluenza.

I'm glad the op is out there. The more people that are wasting money on overpriced status items, the better the economy does and the better my job security is. I am all about letting stupid people be stupid for my own indirect benefit. I encourage all of you to do what this guy does. Except buying the Japanese car. That's just lame. Buy a car made in the US, instead.

 

[TemSirolimus]

I think the basic tenet of this thread is the let pharmacists know that they should quit whining about their salaries.

I am also a 2011 graduate, single, no kids just breaking six figures and I could swear my dopamine levels are constantly at a high. Having lived a sucky life for the past 6 or so years ( work while going to school plus I really hated pharmacy school), I can say that life is much much better now.

In fact, I feel guilty that I make so much let millions of people cannot even afford basic necessities of life. I have truly discovered the joys of giving back. That said, I am a minimalist and lavishly live under $1400 a month (all expenses).

 

[awval999]

Hope you're at least maxing your 401k. You are right, it's your money and do with it what you want. However, there's nothing wrong with being able to sleep at night because you have an emergency fund, maxing your 401k for old age (or early forced retirement), and knowing your loans will be done in <10 years.

Just realize that everything you are currently renting/leasing can be taken away from you.The real world sucks. That's the way it is. Better to save in times of bounty so you can be prepared in times of scarcity.

Yes, there needs to be balance, but leasing and renting things when your security and retirement needs aren't met just isn't smart.

ps: i have/am doing all of the things in bold, yet i've been to hawaii, carribean, miami, boston, new orleans, and toronto in the past 18 months since graduation. then again, i'm still driving my 2002 hyundai beater and renting a modest place.

 

[Dr Wario]

I do not want to be a slave so that others can become rich at my expense. As I have always said, if we really want to fix the profession of pharmacy, the first thing we need to do is become financially literate and strong so that our employers do not have power over us. Otherwise I suppose I can take the position of WVU and simply get rich while the rest struggle.

You can work for the man
You can be the man
Or you can own the man - not my quote and not sure where it came from

 

[awval999]

I do not want to be a slave so that others can become rich at my expense. As I have always said, if we really want to fix the profession of pharmacy, the first thing we need to do is become financially literate and strong so that our employers do not have power over us. Otherwise I suppose I can take the position of WVU and simply get rich while the rest struggle.

You can work for the man
You can be the man
Or you can own the man - not my quote and not sure where it came from

Wario is right. The loans will always make you a slave. OP you are a slave and in shackles.

Proverbs 22:7
Just as the rich rules over the poor, the borrower is the slave of the lender

 

[PharmDstudent]

We don't make much money.

 

[Sparda29]

Good old affluenza.

I'm glad the op is out there. The more people that are wasting money on overpriced status items, the better the economy does and the better my job security is. I am all about letting stupid people be stupid for my own indirect benefit. I encourage all of you to do what this guy does. Except buying the Japanese car. That's just lame. Buy a car made in Germany, instead.

Fixed.

 

[BenJammin]

What if you lose your job tomorrow?

I plan on setting up and FU fund in case that happens. Every pharmacist shoud have one of those.

 

[PositivePharmD]

Awval, I never stated I am not saving for retirement or that I have no money set aside for periods of financial hardship. Of course, I am I did not decide to rent a nice place and lease a good car as soon as I graduated. I was living in a room paying under 500 dollars per month for several months after graduation in order to save some money. So, don't be so quick to judge when you don't know the facts.

Apparently, some people on this forum think living well and saving for the future is mutually exclusive. Here's one advantage I have: I DON'T depend on credit cards. I have ZERO credit card debt. If I cannot pay something fully in cash, I am of the mentality that I simply cannot afford the "object" of my desire. Simple as that.

With respect to WVU, if I'm not mistaken he used to or currently lives in a trailer [very little associated expenses] and at least used to drive an old car. You know what? That's fine- I respect those decisions. But, WVU, please keep in mind that not everyone is used to living under such circumstances. My parents are both professionals and we used to live well and within our means. If you can afford a nice apartment, car, or a vacation and can save money as I am doing, then I don't see the problem with my choices.

The reality is that people go to school to get ahead in life financially, contribute to society, and PROSPER. Why should I bust my you know what for eight years and then live as a student for more years to come or live a quality of life/standard of life well below what I can reasonably have? The definition of prosperity takes on a different meaning for everyone. For some people, to prosper means having a large sum of money in a bank account. For others, it means having zero debt. And then there are others who feel that having a nice pad, being able to take a vacation, etc... is characteristic of prosperity as long as you can afford it.

If living the same quality of life that a person making forty thousand dollars per year is living is the "responsible" choice, then what was the purpose of going to pharmacy school and making more money? Not every M.D., Pharm.D., DDS, JD, etc.. wants to live the same quality of life they had before going to school. Like I said above, people usually go to school to ENHANCE their standard of living. Unfortunately, some of you make it seem like it's irresponsible living and make the assumption that I am not saving. Well, you guys are wrong. But read back to what I was saying: I have no credit cards, don't spend on frivolous things I don't need, etc.

And, WVU, I know what you think about people who drive nice cars such as Lexus, BMW, etc. If you want to think I'm driving a Lexus as a "status symbol" or because I am one of the douchebag individuals who drive these cars, then so be it. But don't judge. This is not "good old affluenza".

So, to sum things up: I live well, have zero credit debt and other obligations, and save money for retirement [but am not obsessed with the concept as I am also down to earth and my two feet are in the present as well].

 

[BrightLight]

Yesterday, a father came up to me and asked me if I could do her daughter. I was totally at loss on what to say.

 

[Chris co2012]

Me thinks that PositivePharmD and PharmDTop5 (guy who created the California thread) are the same person...

But I didn't really read either post because of TL: DR.

 

[timbutt2]

WVUPharm2007 -
Hhahahaha - I literally just watched that WIRE episode yesterday!

 

[SWSF]

So, to sum things up: I live well, have zero credit debt and other obligations, and save money for retirement [but am not obsessed with the concept as I am also down to earth and my two feet are in the present as well].

why even bother saving for retirement when you are paying 6.7% interest rate in student loan?

 

[timbutt2]

I definitely disagree with those who say a Pharm’s salary is not "a lot of money." In my opinion - it is not only ENOUGH money, but a lot. Of course my wife and I live on about 40K in a major city. On that salary, we have managed to pay 15K in Pharm tuition. And we remain debt free (with the exception of student loans), fund our 401Ks to the match, and fund a Roth IRA as well. So the 150k + we will be making upon graduation quite frankly blows my mind. What will I do with all that money? It’s a celebration, b*tches! Assuming the money is managed well, it’s certainly enough money to retire well, vacation well, drive decent cars, fund your children’s educations, have healthcare, life insurance etc, etc,

Personally, I have not decided how I want to pay off my loans. I might go ballz out and pay them off in 4 years, or stretch them out to 10, or even 30 – choosing instead to invest my money – after all time is our greatest asset when it comes to investing.

"why even bother saving for retirement when you are paying 6.7% interest rate in student loan? "

Assuming you are not a complete '****, you will earn much more than 6.7% over 40-50 years of investing.

 

[SWSF]

Assuming you are not a complete '****, you will earn much more than 6.7% over 40-50 years of investing.

Tell that to the people who are retiring. The DOW is at the same level as 10 years ago. You will lucky if you get annual 6.7% return in your investment nowadays. Let me also remind you that student loan interest rate gets compounded to the principal.

 

[kys2000]

Good old affluenza.

I'm glad the op is out there. The more people that are wasting money on overpriced status items, the better the economy does and the better my job security is. I am all about letting stupid people be stupid for my own indirect benefit. I encourage all of you to do what this guy does. Except buying the Japanese car. That's just lame. Buy a car made in the US, instead.

Why can't one buy a Japanese car and one that is made in the US together? For example, last time I checked, for the Ford F-series trucks, the domestic content is now 60% and for the Toyota Sequoia, the domestic content is now 80%.

 

[pinipig523]

I can symphatize with the OP - there's 2 camps to the whole loan payback thing - you can either take your time or be aggressive with it. The more aggressive you are, you will end up with a less affluent lifestyle.

Then there's also retirement and asset allocation - it's tough. Can you spare 20% or more of your pretax gross salaries to retirement funds and other vehicles for investment?

It's easy to say - I make 100K, I'm set for life.

Some calculations:

With 100K, you're looking at 68K post taxes (and post IL state TX).

That's with no 401K withholdings. Let's say you do the max 15% withholding so you can retire someday.

So let's take the $100K subtract $15K (401K) subtract taxes = $59K

Now, let say you have $100K in student loans - you want to pay it off in 10 years. That's approx $1K/month x 12 = $12K per year

So now you're at $59K - $12K (loans) = $47K

$47,000/12 = $3,916/mo

Other expenses:
- Car = you want a nice 2012 car? For $35K? You're probably looking at $625/mo x 60 months.
- Gas = $350/mo
- Utilities/cable/internet = $250/mo
- Shopping = $50/mo
- Travel (1-2 vacations per year, approx $3000/yr) = $250/mo
- Insurance (auto) = $100/mo
- Cell phone = $75/mo
- Food = $500/mo

Let's do the following also:
- You need disability insurance in case you get injured = $150/mo
- You will also need some life insurance while you're still young and able = $100/mo for term for 2M (don't get me started on the costs of whole life - $2000/mo for 2MIL)

We have not started talking about your house.
- $200K home will cost you approx $2000/month over 15 years (w/ property tax)

Total expenses = ~ $1500/mo + $250 for insurance (disability and life) + $2000 (home) = $3750

Your 100K salary has been wittled down to $3916 after 401K and student loans. Your expenses are $3750. You now have $166 left over every month after expenses.

There are a few in the expenses list that you can get rid of or do without, but this is my conservative estimate.

Now, keep in mind - you're not scraping the barrel here - you are doing quite well. I mean, you have all life's luxuries - you have a new car, a good house, you travel twice a year, you have cable/internet/cell phone, you are well covered - you are maxing your 401K, you are paying off your loans in 10 years, you are paying off your house in 15 years... you also have adequate insurance to cover you - life and disability.

However, we did not take into account kids.... that's your big curveball there.

At 100K, you can definitely do well - but the money slips away fast. This is probably why people say that pharmacists don't make enough.

But trust me, the same mantra applies to almost any economic situation. Even super high earners still feel the same. It's all because your tax bracket, your expenses, your retirement plans, your asset allocation ALL go up as you earn more.

 

[NJHatLFG]

My practice clientele consists of well over 100 pharmacists in 16 different states and I see the following problems over and over again:

1. Making large purchases (homes, cars, etc) without understanding the long term financial consequences early in ones career. Ex: 400k home and 35k car within first year of passing the boards just because they were approved for the loans when in fact it places them in a long term cycle of debt repayment coupled with the inability to save.

2. Ineffectively leveraging their income, employee benefits, and savings to pay off their debts while saving for retirement and other financial goals. Ex: have 2k per month in discretionary savings and put it all towards their student loans which have 4-6% interest rates instead of allocating some of their funds to a risk free investment strategy that would eventually enable them to pay off their loans at a faster rate.

3. Lack of focus on their long term financial goals. It is a fact that the longer you wait to save for retirement and other financial goals the harder (and larger amount of $ needed) it is to obtain the goals set. Would you rather change your standard of living earlier in your career or wait until age 50 and need to make drastic changes to your lifestyle to have a chance of meeting your long term cash flow needs in retirement?

The great thing about these 3 items is that you have complete control over them. All you have to do is commit to your long term financial success and find the most effective way to accomplish your goals rather than just thinking about them and never doing it. You may have to make changes to your current lifestyle but it is easier to do now rather than later.

 

[NJHatLFG]

I would not recommend contributing any more that the maximum match provision in your 401k. I track and allocate every major retail chains 401k plans and they all lack quality investment options.

Take advantage of other retirement savings plans that provide better investment options and preferred tax treatment.

I can symphatize with the OP - there's 2 camps to the whole loan payback thing - you can either take your time or be aggressive with it. The more aggressive you are, you will end up with a less affluent lifestyle.

Then there's also retirement and asset allocation - it's tough. Can you spare 20% or more of your pretax gross salaries to retirement funds and other vehicles for investment?

It's easy to say - I make 100K, I'm set for life.

Some calculations:

With 100K, you're looking at 68K post taxes (and post IL state TX).

That's with no 401K withholdings. Let's say you do the max 15% withholding so you can retire someday.

So let's take the $100K subtract $15K (401K) subtract taxes = $59K

Now, let say you have $100K in student loans - you want to pay it off in 10 years. That's approx $1K/month x 12 = $12K per year

So now you're at $59K - $12K (loans) = $47K

$47,000/12 = $3,916/mo

Other expenses:
- Car = you want a nice 2012 car? For $35K? You're probably looking at $625/mo x 60 months.
- Gas = $350/mo
- Utilities/cable/internet = $250/mo
- Shopping = $50/mo
- Travel (1-2 vacations per year, approx $3000/yr) = $250/mo
- Insurance (auto) = $100/mo
- Cell phone = $75/mo
- Food = $500/mo

Let's do the following also:
- You need disability insurance in case you get injured = $150/mo
- You will also need some life insurance while you're still young and able = $100/mo for term for 2M (don't get me started on the costs of whole life - $2000/mo for 2MIL)

We have not started talking about your house.
- $200K home will cost you approx $2000/month over 15 years (w/ property tax)

Total expenses = ~ $1500/mo + $250 for insurance (disability and life) + $2000 (home) = $3750

Your 100K salary has been wittled down to $3916 after 401K and student loans. Your expenses are $3750. You now have $166 left over every month after expenses.

There are a few in the expenses list that you can get rid of or do without, but this is my conservative estimate.

Now, keep in mind - you're not scraping the barrel here - you are doing quite well. I mean, you have all life's luxuries - you have a new car, a good house, you travel twice a year, you have cable/internet/cell phone, you are well covered - you are maxing your 401K, you are paying off your loans in 10 years, you are paying off your house in 15 years... you also have adequate insurance to cover you - life and disability.

However, we did not take into account kids.... that's your big curveball there.

At 100K, you can definitely do well - but the money slips away fast. This is probably why people say that pharmacists don't make enough.

But trust me, the same mantra applies to almost any economic situation. Even super high earners still feel the same. It's all because your tax bracket, your expenses, your retirement plans, your asset allocation ALL go up as you earn more.

 

[pinipig523]

I would not recommend contributing any more that the maximum match provision in your 401k. I track and allocate every major retail chains 401k plans and they all lack quality investment options.

Take advantage of other retirement savings plans that provide better investment options and preferred tax treatment.

You can do whatever you want, I agree, but I think that if you want to be able to retire at a decent age - you should be putting 15% of your gross income into some sort of retirement vehicle.

The max match contribution at Walgreens is only 2%.

 

[timbutt2]

Tell that to the people who are retiring. The DOW is at the same level as 10 years ago. You will lucky if you get annual 6.7% return in your investment nowadays. Let me also remind you that student loan interest rate gets compounded to the principal.

Yes, I am aware that it is compounded, and yes, I know what compounded means. Regardless, I completely disagree, but don't feel that this is the thread to delve (too much) further. I am not an alarmist when it comes to investing. Despite the crash of 2008, I still feel that the market is the best place for returns when looking on a long term scale - ie 40-50 years. I myself have managed 7.5% over the past 6 years with 100% of money in stocks. So the crash wasn't THAT detrimental for everyone. Not all of our portfolios follow the dow.

I would not recommend contributing any more that the maximum match provision in your 401k. I track and allocate every major retail chains 401k plans and they all lack quality investment options.

Take advantage of other retirement savings plans that provide better investment options and preferred tax treatment.

I 100% agree with you on this. That's why I...
1. Contribute to the match on the 401K
2. Max out the Roth.
3. I also have a pension
4. and employee stock - though this is a very SMALL percentage of the total.

 

[rph3664]

1. Making large purchases (homes, cars, etc) without understanding the long term financial consequences early in ones career. Ex: 400k home and 35k car within first year of passing the boards just because they were approved for the loans when in fact it places them in a long term cycle of debt repayment coupled with the inability to save.

There was a pharmacist at my previous job who, along with her then-husband, did that - the 5BR 4BA McMansion when it was just her and him. They later had two kids, and without giving away too many other details that could potentially identify her, they are now divorced. Of course, only they know what really happened, but I personally believe this kind of thing, plus the fact that they had those kids in the first place, was a major factor. People say kids don't cause divorces? In this case, they did and everybody knows it.

 

[NJHatLFG]

You can do whatever you want, I agree, but I think that if you want to be able to retire at a decent age - you should be putting 15% of your gross income into some sort of retirement vehicle.

The max match contribution at Walgreens is only 2%.

I agree, as a retail pharmacist salary you should be able to save at a minimum of 20k per year (this includes your 401k match).

No obviously if you have over 100k in student loan debt it is not that easy. That is where benefits-cost analysis comes into play. In general, most student loan interest rates are lower (on a tax adjusted basis) than that you can obtain in a low risk bond or dividend portfolio and should be utilized to maximize your savings while offering the opportunity to pay off large chunks of debt in the future.

 

[type b pharmD]

I can symphatize with the OP - there's 2 camps to the whole loan payback thing - you can either take your time or be aggressive with it. The more aggressive you are, you will end up with a less affluent lifestyle.

Then there's also retirement and asset allocation - it's tough. Can you spare 20% or more of your pretax gross salaries to retirement funds and other vehicles for investment?

It's easy to say - I make 100K, I'm set for life.

Some calculations:

With 100K, you're looking at 68K post taxes (and post IL state TX).

That's with no 401K withholdings. Let's say you do the max 15% withholding so you can retire someday.

So let's take the $100K subtract $15K (401K) subtract taxes = $59K

Now, let say you have $100K in student loans - you want to pay it off in 10 years. That's approx $1K/month x 12 = $12K per year

So now you're at $59K - $12K (loans) = $47K

$47,000/12 = $3,916/mo

Other expenses:
- Car = you want a nice 2012 car? For $35K? You're probably looking at $625/mo x 60 months.
- Gas = $350/mo
- Utilities/cable/internet = $250/mo
- Shopping = $50/mo
- Travel (1-2 vacations per year, approx $3000/yr) = $250/mo
- Insurance (auto) = $100/mo
- Cell phone = $75/mo
- Food = $500/mo

Let's do the following also:
- You need disability insurance in case you get injured = $150/mo
- You will also need some life insurance while you're still young and able = $100/mo for term for 2M (don't get me started on the costs of whole life - $2000/mo for 2MIL)

We have not started talking about your house.
- $200K home will cost you approx $2000/month over 15 years (w/ property tax)

Total expenses = ~ $1500/mo + $250 for insurance (disability and life) + $2000 (home) = $3750

Your 100K salary has been wittled down to $3916 after 401K and student loans. Your expenses are $3750. You now have $166 left over every month after expenses.

There are a few in the expenses list that you can get rid of or do without, but this is my conservative estimate.

Now, keep in mind - you're not scraping the barrel here - you are doing quite well. I mean, you have all life's luxuries - you have a new car, a good house, you travel twice a year, you have cable/internet/cell phone, you are well covered - you are maxing your 401K, you are paying off your loans in 10 years, you are paying off your house in 15 years... you also have adequate insurance to cover you - life and disability.

However, we did not take into account kids.... that's your big curveball there.

At 100K, you can definitely do well - but the money slips away fast. This is probably why people say that pharmacists don't make enough.

But trust me, the same mantra applies to almost any economic situation. Even super high earners still feel the same. It's all because your tax bracket, your expenses, your retirement plans, your asset allocation ALL go up as you earn more.

This post is making a few extravagant spending assumptions, for example: Home price 50% above median, with no downpayment, 15 year mortgage without including mortgage interest deductions, $500/month on food (personally I am a voracious eater and exercise-aholic , and I dont spend more than $100-150/month TOPS, so you are basically budgeting for someone who has food as a *hobby*, and as such should be treated as recreational expenses. Also, 35k car? Paying more than $5-10k for a car is basically throwing away money, as a slightly used but just as reliable and effective (ie taking you from one destination to another comfortably), for less than 1/3 the price of a new luxury car.

Also, $2 million life insurance policy? The only reason I see this as being necessary would be if you had kids who were depending on you to pay for their college education. Why not use your employers life insurance ?

Overall, you did a good job of making your point and your figures (calculation wise) seem pretty accurate, but you are overestimating expenses for many people.

Personally, my plan is to buy a used trailer or mobile home for cash with some loan grace period money, and I will NEVER be caught spending more than $10k on a car, or buying life insurance beyond what my employer offers. But to each his own.

I really appreciate that you noted that the expenses and spending you laid out really means you are buying a luxury lifestyle , in contrast to the many posters on here who would lay out a similar spending/expenses explanation and then cry poverty at the end of it.

 

[danderson]

I can't believe people making 100k have the audacity to cry out it's not much money. Even if they were making 200 k, it still wouldn't be enough. Ask yourself this question: If most pharmacists on SDN state their salary isn't much, how is that the average joe in America, making thirty grand a year, makes it? We're all better off and can afford much more than most Americans.

Thank you. It is so ridiculous how so many people on here talk like that's not much money. I would feel bad if people outside the field of health wandered on to this site and read people talking like that. There is a massive amount of people busting their asses for 30k a year. Many of them have families too!

 

[Sparda29]

The average joe doesn't have $300K in student loans.

 

[njac]

I think our generation has been exposed, via reality television (? not sure), to the uber-rich, a status you aren't going to make as a pharmacist.

People have lost a grasp on reality as to what is accessible to normal people, even normal people doing well.

As a pharmacist no, you probably will not drive a Bentley. But a Lexus or Acura is totally within means.

 

[njac]

The average joe doesn't have $300K in student loans.

Neither does the average pharmacist.

 

[pinipig523]

This post is making a few extravagant spending assumptions, for example: Home price 50% above median, with no downpayment, 15 year mortgage without including mortgage interest deductions, $500/month on food (personally I am a voracious eater and exercise-aholic , and I dont spend more than $100-150/month TOPS, so you are basically budgeting for someone who has food as a *hobby*, and as such should be treated as recreational expenses. Also, 35k car? Paying more than $5-10k for a car is basically throwing away money, as a slightly used but just as reliable and effective (ie taking you from one destination to another comfortably), for less than 1/3 the price of a new luxury car.

Also, $2 million life insurance policy? The only reason I see this as being necessary would be if you had kids who were depending on you to pay for their college education. Why not use your employers life insurance ?

Overall, you did a good job of making your point and your figures (calculation wise) seem pretty accurate, but you are overestimating expenses for many people.

Personally, my plan is to buy a used trailer or mobile home for cash with some loan grace period money, and I will NEVER be caught spending more than $10k on a car, or buying life insurance beyond what my employer offers. But to each his own.

I really appreciate that you noted that the expenses and spending you laid out really means you are buying a luxury lifestyle , in contrast to the many posters on here who would lay out a similar spending/expenses explanation and then cry poverty at the end of it.

Yes, my budgets are always an overestimation and a conservative way of managing your money.

1. Food - yes, $500 is a lot. But if you go out with your GF or wife to a dinner, you can easily hit $50 each time. Twice a week is $400 in a month. And if you eat fast food during work days, you'll hit the remaining $100. Hence my $500 estimate.

2. Life insurance - the reason for $2M? Because $1M is only $50 a month while $2M is $100 a month. $100 is reasonable for what you make and $2M will take care of ALL your expenses and give a nice windfall to whoever you are leaving your will to.

Also, the reason to get life insurance out of your job? It's simple really - why stick with something that's all-inclusive? Why see a PCP for a GI problem when you can see the GI specialist?

I would say the reason to buy your own Life Insurance is so that it is COMPLETELY portable. If you change jobs - you take it with you. Also, you'll know your agent and you can trust your agent to help you with the claim when it comes time to it. You'll also be able to avail of a term (or whole if you want) plan... when you're young, you'll be set for a period of 20y on a rock-stable monthly payment. If you stick with your job's life insurance policy - and you lose the job and decide you need life insurance - you'll be older and likely paying several magnitudes more (think $250 a month instead of $50).

Also, usually a life insurance included with your job has inadequate limits.

3. House - $200K is a good estimate for the majority of pharmacists who make $80-100K. I would be surprised if the majority would be ok living in a $130K home. I picked $200 because even that is conservative in terms of incomeebt ratio.

4. Regarding a $35K car - yes, luxurious and probably not completely necessary. But I know that after a long 8 years of undergrad and pharmacy school - there are many who will head to your Lexus, Infiniti, MBenz dealerships looking for a nice ride.

Yes, my estimates are a little high, but it shows that money disappears pretty quickly.

 

[SWSF]

Yes, my estimates are a little high, but it shows that money disappears pretty quickly.

Your estimate is low if you live in Southern Cali. Where I live a typical house is much more than 200 k a year and most of my pharmacy friends owe more than 100 k in student loans.

If we did not have student loans, a life of a pharmacist is pretty decent. But including student loans, there is not much left over especially if you live in a big city.

 

[Dkpharm]

PositivePharmD,

The 'plight' of a lot of these pharmacists is completely logical and understandable. All of us as people, and as professionals, are trained to see the risk before the reward. Whether it's finances or checking drug-interactions, we see what COULD go wrong, aside from everything else being right.
It beehoves us to adopt this mentality in our career, and thus it carries over into our personal lives.
It's all about covering your ass (CYA). You do it at work, you do it at home. You never know when **** can it the fan.
It's amazing how fast you can actually pay these loans when you stay committed,resolute,and disciplined. Personally, I paid them as fast as I could, living a college-dude lifestyle I was already used to. Now, debt free, loan free, I'm building pure capital and the possibilities are endless.

Eventually, working for a chain, or any corporation for that matter, you'll learn that you're simply a labor expense and are lining someone else's fat pockets. Think to yourself deep down, with your mentality, that you will never be able to stop working, you will never be able to avoid your loan payments. You will never have complete freedom.

slave to your lender = slave to your employer.

 

[jasonkido]

PositivePharmD,

The 'plight' of a lot of these pharmacists is completely logical and understandable. All of us as people, and as professionals, are trained to see the risk before the reward. Whether it's finances or checking drug-interactions, we see what COULD go wrong, aside from everything else being right.
It beehoves us to adopt this mentality in our career, and thus it carries over into our personal lives.
It's all about covering your ass (CYA). You do it at work, you do it at home. You never know when **** can it the fan.
It's amazing how fast you can actually pay these loans when you stay committed,resolute,and disciplined. Personally, I paid them as fast as I could, living a college-dude lifestyle I was already used to. Now, debt free, loan free, I'm building pure capital and the possibilities are endless.

Eventually, working for a chain, or any corporation for that matter, you'll learn that you're simply a labor expense and are lining someone else's fat pockets. Think to yourself deep down, with your mentality, that you will never be able to stop working, you will never be able to avoid your loan payments. You will never have complete freedom.

slave to your lender = slave to your employer.

I agree. Interest on borrowing too much can literally cause you to become a slave to your employer. Just working to make ends meet. I would not want to live like that knowing that I depend on each pay check. The only debt I have right now is a mortgage and yes that is a huge debt but I have a plan to pay off my mortgage as quickly as possible just like I did with my student loans. I am still putting in 401k and am still using some of my leftover income on a few luxuries here and there.

 

[Dkpharm]

Hey man, a mortgage is a healthy debt to have. If your home value rises over the years, and you stay put for a good while, it's an awesome investment.

 

[PharmDstudent]

I've been reading the SDN forums for a while now and just felt compelled to create a thread concerning what I have been reading consistently in several threads- that is, the claim that "pharmacists don't make much money."

I graduated in 2011, work for a chain, and live in South Florida [Miami]. I am a 26 y/o guy and want to say that even though I owe $160,000, I have plenty of money to live a nice and comfortable lifestyle. I live in a high rise waterfront condominium with fitness center, pool, spa, and other amenities and pay nearly $1,800 per month for rent. I am also leasing a Lexus. The point here is that I am living very comfortably and within my means as a pharmacist.

I feel that the only reason those of you pharmacists on this forum make the claim that pharmacist pay is "not much" are saying this is because you are slaving yourself away to pay off a six figure debt. I read a post somewhere that one pharmacist is paying 2,500 per month and is worried and complaining that such a payment doesn't leave much room for more. Well, guess what? NO ONE is telling you, commanding you, or forcing you to pay off your hefty student loans in ten years. NO ONE. The only reason you guys are not seeing how much money you're truly making is because you have tied yourself in chains.

There is no need to pay exorbitant sums of money per month in order to pay off that loan in ten years. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do it. I am taking my time and will certainly take well over ten years to pay off my current debt. I am limiting myself to paying no more than a thousand dollars per month. Sure, in the end, I'm perfectly aware that I'll be paying a lot more money in interest, but you know what? I'd rather pay more money in interest rather than having to sacrifice god knows how many more years in order to rush to pay off the loan before I can finally enjoy the fruits of my hard work in school.

You rent a condo and "rent" a Lexus. Talk about being loaded.

This is the kind of condo that I want to OWN.

So how will you pay them off in more time? You'd have to refinance your student loans, because student loans are set for 10 years.

3. Lack of focus on their long term financial goals. It is a fact that the longer you wait to save for retirement and other financial goals the harder (and larger amount of $ needed) it is to obtain the goals set. Would you rather change your standard of living earlier in your career or wait until age 50 and need to make drastic changes to your lifestyle to have a chance of meeting your long term cash flow needs in retirement.

OP, you remind me of this woman... Let's all be 50 and have nothing to show for ourselves.

The max match contribution at Walgreens is only 2%.

No, no, no. It's 4% now. And the match on it is dollar for dollar plus a variable, not 2 dollars for dollar plus a variable like it was.