To all new optometry grads and students about to graduate from optometry school.

[Nikki2620]

What was or will be your starting salary as an optometrist? I'm trying to get an idea of how muh money I can expect to make straight out of school.

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

There have been a lot of threads on here that sort of answer this question.

In general, where you practice and your mode of practice is what will determine your salary.

Just out of curiosity...where would you like to practice and in what mode? based on that, how much would you be happy with making / expect to make?

Answering these questions might give you a better answer from practicing ODs and you can also see if what youre hoping for is realistic.

 

[Nikki2620]

Well I don't plan on opening a practice at least not the first year post graduation. I keep hearing issues with salary decreases in optometry. I plan on working at an already established optometry office initially. I wanted to get a current perspective from either new graduates or those students who may already be lined up for a job on what kind of starting salary to expect.

I would like to think that starting at $87,000 or so wouldn't be unreasonable...but I'm not sure if salaries are on the decline or not. That's why I'm on this forum to get real and current perspectives.

 

[Jason K]

Well I don't plan on opening a practice at least not the first year post graduation. I keep hearing issues with salary decreases in optometry. I plan on working at an already established optometry office initially. I wanted to get a current perspective from either new graduates or those students who may already be lined up for a job on what kind of starting salary to expect.

I would like to think that starting at $87,000 or so wouldn't be unreasonable...but I'm not sure if salaries are on the decline or not. That's why I'm on this forum to get real and current perspectives.

I hate to break this to you, but most private practice docs would not even consider an offer of 87K to a new grad. Chances are, they'd probably call a buddy right after the interview and say something like, "Hey, you'll never guess what this new grad just asked me to pay him!" I know two residency-trained ODs, who have recently been offered in the mid to high 60s, with a palrty bonus structure that they'd never reach. They were told the salary was lower because the cost of living was lower than in other parts of the country.

There are exceptions, but most new grads, IF they are one of the lucky few who are able to find a FT private practice position (and I mean "few"), you're going to be looking at something in the low to mid 70s, at best - and that's if you're lucky. Unfortunately, if you don't like it, there will be 50 people behind you to take your place.

If you decide to go where most new grads are going, and do the corporate/commercial thing, your income will vary greatly, depending on what kind of office you're in. You can make $0/day at Sam's, or you could make $1000/day at Sam's. Here's the problem, just about all of the "good" leases for commercial boxes (Walmart, Sam's, etc) are already spoken for, and they're not going to be given up any time soon. What is offered to new grads, are the new "crap" locations that get zero traffic, where you'll be required to sit in a box and wait for some bargain hunters to stop by for their $40 eye exam. So, if you're after a lease location - be careful, because what is offered to you will likely be a ghost town. I've seen it happen too many times. A new grad is all jazzed up about the new Sam's lease he just managed to squeak into, and after sitting in it for months, making nothing, it's dumped on someone else. If you're hired as an independent contractor at a lease site (by another OD), you'll probably be offered something in the area of $40 to $45 / hr. Sometimes you can take a percentage of the daily gross. If you're depending on that site as your primary income source, you'd better be sure it has good traffic flow, if you're on a percentage. Don't forget that, as an IC, you're on your own for self-employment tax, which just went up considerably. If you can get into an employed position, it's a lot more tax-friendly (usually), but most lease-holders don't want to pay your taxes, so they'll push you to take an IC position.

The problem with hourly work is not necessarily that the pay is terrible, it's that most new grads can't find enough, within a reasonable driving distance, to assemble a full time schedule. Ask around. When you're juggling 4 or 5 PT positions to try to make ends meet, it's not fun, but that's what a huge percentage of today's newly-minted ODs are doing to pay the bills. Why aren't any defaulting on their student loans? A little thing called "Income Based Repayment." It's great for a few months, if you need it, but many grads are using it as a repayment strategy, and it's costing them tens of thousands of dollars per year in interest. The IBR plans lower your required payments, but whatever you don't pay each month is simply added to your principal as interest. You'll continue to rack up massive debt on top of an already massive debt. But no worries, you can just take the "forgiveness" option after 20 years, thanks to Obama, right? Think again. He conveniently left out the part about capital gains taxes on that amount. You owe Uncle Sam capital gains tax on the amount forgiven, in the year of forgiveness - in total. Right now, capital gains is low. If Obama gets his way, it'll be raised to around 40%. That's where he's pushing to set it, and the way things are going, he'll get there. So, do the math. Let's say you just hold your student loan principal in check for 20 years, paying off even more than required by the IBR program. So at year 20, you owe around 200K. If that's forgiven, you now owe 80K in the year of forgiveness. Not a bad deal, but I don't know many people who can write a check for 80K whenever they feel like it. If you do what many students are doing now, and simply let your principal balloon out of control on an IBR plan, you'll likely double what your amount borrowed was initially, and after 20 years, you'll end up paying in taxes, almost as much as you borrowed. There's no free lunch, folks, despite what you're told by your charismatic liberal politicians in DC.

Moving on....

Or, you can do the America's Best thing. $100K right out of the gates. Sounds good, right? Talk to someone who's worked there. You'll see about 8-10 patients per hour for
"comprehensive eye exams and contact lens fittings." Most people who try it, don't last more than a year or two. Enough said.

Luxottica is a mixed bag. In my experience, Pearle Vision is garbage dump that always seems to be trying to pitch its leases onto unsuspecting new grads. I would have my toe nails ripped out at the roots with a pair of pliers, before I'd ever work there FT, or take one of their leases. PT is fine, FT is a disaster waiting to happen. Lenscrafters is a step up from Pearle. Pay is the same, as an employee, but you won't be dumpster diving to the same extent. It's still Luxottica, so there you go. If you don't play by their rules, you get bounced. There's a reason they pay by the hour, and not on salary - it's because they want total control over your hours. If you don't produce, your hours are cut. Target is another Luxottica gem. I hold it on par with Sam's.

It's not good, people. You want it to be, but it isn't. It's smart to be asking questions about income before you apply, but if you don't take the advice of those who are issuing warnings about the future of the profession, don't be surprised when it turns out differently than you imagined.

You and you alone will be responsible for paying back the massive sum of money that's required to get an OD these days. The people who welcome you into optometry with open arms will almost certainly have something to gain by your admission. The AOA, the schools reps, the professors at your local OD program - they're all counting on you entering the profession. If you don't, they're out of an income. Remember that.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

Well I don't plan on opening a practice at least not the first year post graduation. I keep hearing issues with salary decreases in optometry. I plan on working at an already established optometry office initially. I wanted to get a current perspective from either new graduates or those students who may already be lined up for a job on what kind of starting salary to expect.

I would like to think that starting at $87,000 or so wouldn't be unreasonable...but I'm not sure if salaries are on the decline or not. That's why I'm on this forum to get real and current perspectives.

Yeah its understandable. For the record, i understood what you were getting at. I just wanted you to reply to the questions so you can get a detailed response like you got from Jason. Im sure other's will chime in soon enough with their responses.

I know two residency-trained ODs, who have recently been offered in the mid to high 60s, with a palrty bonus structure that they'd never reach. They were told the salary was lower because the cost of living was lower than in other parts of the country.

Would you mind disclosing the state or region at the very least? 60k is on the lower end of what i have seen offered in the north east region.

Or, you can do the America's Best thing. $100K right out of the gates. Sounds good, right? Talk to someone who's worked there. You'll see about 8-10 patients per hour for
"comprehensive eye exams and contact lens fittings." Most people who try it, don't last more than a year or two. Enough said.

100k guaranteed salary? Why dont they last more than a year or two? Assumption being that they get bored to death?

 

[vieromanxx]

Yeah its understandable. For the record, i understood what you were getting at. I just wanted you to reply to the questions so you can get a detailed response like you got from Jason. Im sure other's will chime in soon enough with their responses.



Would you mind disclosing the state or region at the very least? 60k is on the lower end of what i have seen offered in the north east region.



100k guaranteed salary? Why dont they last more than a year or two? Assumption being that they get bored to death?

more like over worked to death...

 

[Jason K]

Would you mind disclosing the state or region at the very least? 60k is on the lower end of what i have seen offered in the north east region.

Midwest. This is where prospective applicants really need to look at things from a financial perspective. Sixty or 70K is not bad for much of America, and they'd be thrilled to take that income, but most of those people don't owe a couple of hundred thousand in student loans. Don't forget about those pesky loans; the money required to pay them each month, comes right off the top. You might as well take that amount right off your income, so in reality, you're making in the 40s or 50s. Not so good after you've studied for so long.


100k guaranteed salary? Why dont they last more than a year or two? Assumption being that they get bored to death?[/QUOTE]

America's Best is the garbage dump of optometry. It's not even optometry, it's something, but it isn't optometry. I have had friends who took the bait, and regretted it harshly. You'll basically be a slave, packing away 70 or more patients per day, all in the name of $$ for National Vision, AB's parent company. Forget about eye care, completely.

 

[Nikki2620]

Well I'm set to start optometry school this fall but I'm having second thoughts. I'm starting to consider PA school but am nervous that by giving up an acceptance to optometry school, I'm giving up a big opportunity. PA school is only 2 1/2 years, and the specialities I'm considering getting into pay 6 figures. It's about a quarter of the price as optometry school and pays new grads a starting salary around $85,000. Already more than new optometry grads can say. PAs are also in demand and I would be able to work in most any location, so they have great job stability. I went to shadow a PA at an ER yesterday and they already want to hire me as a medical scribe. Which would give me the clinical experience necessary for PA school.

I just have so much to think about.. I'm just confused and torn. :/...

 

[Nikki2620]

I hate to break this to you, but most private practice docs would not even consider an offer of 87K to a new grad. Chances are, they'd probably call a buddy right after the interview and say something like, "Hey, you'll never guess what this new grad just asked me to pay him!" I know two residency-trained ODs, who have recently been offered in the mid to high 60s, with a palrty bonus structure that they'd never reach. They were told the salary was lower because the cost of living was lower than in other parts of the country.

There are exceptions, but most new grads, IF they are one of the lucky few who are able to find a FT private practice position (and I mean "few"), you're going to be looking at something in the low to mid 70s, at best - and that's if you're lucky. Unfortunately, if you don't like it, there will be 50 people behind you to take your place.

If you decide to go where most new grads are going, and do the corporate/commercial thing, your income will vary greatly, depending on what kind of office you're in. You can make $0/day at Sam's, or you could make $1000/day at Sam's. Here's the problem, just about all of the "good" leases for commercial boxes (Walmart, Sam's, etc) are already spoken for, and they're not going to be given up any time soon. What is offered to new grads, are the new "crap" locations that get zero traffic, where you'll be required to sit in a box and wait for some bargain hunters to stop by for their $40 eye exam. So, if you're after a lease location - be careful, because what is offered to you will likely be a ghost town. I've seen it happen too many times. A new grad is all jazzed up about the new Sam's lease he just managed to squeak into, and after sitting in it for months, making nothing, it's dumped on someone else. If you're hired as an independent contractor at a lease site (by another OD), you'll probably be offered something in the area of $40 to $45 / hr. Sometimes you can take a percentage of the daily gross. If you're depending on that site as your primary income source, you'd better be sure it has good traffic flow, if you're on a percentage. Don't forget that, as an IC, you're on your own for self-employment tax, which just went up considerably. If you can get into an employed position, it's a lot more tax-friendly (usually), but most lease-holders don't want to pay your taxes, so they'll push you to take an IC position.

The problem with hourly work is not necessarily that the pay is terrible, it's that most new grads can't find enough, within a reasonable driving distance, to assemble a full time schedule. Ask around. When you're juggling 4 or 5 PT positions to try to make ends meet, it's not fun, but that's what a huge percentage of today's newly-minted ODs are doing to pay the bills. Why aren't any defaulting on their student loans? A little thing called "Income Based Repayment." It's great for a few months, if you need it, but many grads are using it as a repayment strategy, and it's costing them tens of thousands of dollars per year in interest. The IBR plans lower your required payments, but whatever you don't pay each month is simply added to your principal as interest. You'll continue to rack up massive debt on top of an already massive debt. But no worries, you can just take the "forgiveness" option after 20 years, thanks to Obama, right? Think again. He conveniently left out the part about capital gains taxes on that amount. You owe Uncle Sam capital gains tax on the amount forgiven, in the year of forgiveness - in total. Right now, capital gains is low. If Obama gets his way, it'll be raised to around 40%. That's where he's pushing to set it, and the way things are going, he'll get there. So, do the math. Let's say you just hold your student loan principal in check for 20 years, paying off even more than required by the IBR program. So at year 20, you owe around 200K. If that's forgiven, you now owe 80K in the year of forgiveness. Not a bad deal, but I don't know many people who can write a check for 80K whenever they feel like it. If you do what many students are doing now, and simply let your principal balloon out of control on an IBR plan, you'll likely double what your amount borrowed was initially, and after 20 years, you'll end up paying in taxes, almost as much as you borrowed. There's no free lunch, folks, despite what you're told by your charismatic liberal politicians in DC.

Moving on....

Or, you can do the America's Best thing. $100K right out of the gates. Sounds good, right? Talk to someone who's worked there. You'll see about 8-10 patients per hour for
"comprehensive eye exams and contact lens fittings." Most people who try it, don't last more than a year or two. Enough said.

Luxottica is a mixed bag. In my experience, Pearle Vision is garbage dump that always seems to be trying to pitch its leases onto unsuspecting new grads. I would have my toe nails ripped out at the roots with a pair of pliers, before I'd ever work there FT, or take one of their leases. PT is fine, FT is a disaster waiting to happen. Lenscrafters is a step up from Pearle. Pay is the same, as an employee, but you won't be dumpster diving to the same extent. It's still Luxottica, so there you go. If you don't play by their rules, you get bounced. There's a reason they pay by the hour, and not on salary - it's because they want total control over your hours. If you don't produce, your hours are cut. Target is another Luxottica gem. I hold it on par with Sam's.

It's not good, people. You want it to be, but it isn't. It's smart to be asking questions about income before you apply, but if you don't take the advice of those who are issuing warnings about the future of the profession, don't be surprised when it turns out differently than you imagined.

You and you alone will be responsible for paying back the massive sum of money that's required to get an OD these days. The people who welcome you into optometry with open arms will almost certainly have something to gain by your admission. The AOA, the schools reps, the professors at your local OD program - they're all counting on you entering the profession. If you don't, they're out of an income. Remember that.

Thank you for your response by the way. The issues you brought up are some of the reasons I'm looking towards other careers such as PA. I keep hearting negativity surrounding the optometry profession and I definitely want to take that into consideration.

 

[KHE]

And yet in spite of all this negativity, I am currently advertising for a full time private practice position (and I mean a REAL private practice, not a "private practice" inside of a Walmart or a Lenscrafters) and I have not received a single inquiry, and I'm not in the sticks. I'm 90 minutes from New York City and 90 minutes from Boston.

I'm not sure how many new graduates or 4th year students participate in this forum but I've gotten no response.

 

[vistaril]

And yet in spite of all this negativity, I am currently advertising for a full time private practice position (and I mean a REAL private practice, not a "private practice" inside of a Walmart or a Lenscrafters) and I have not received a single inquiry, and I'm not in the sticks. I'm 90 minutes from New York City and 90 minutes from Boston.

I'm not sure how many new graduates or 4th year students participate in this forum but I've gotten no response.

but iirc they would have to go get their own *new* patients, and they don't think they can do that.....yes, I know that doesn't speak well of their ability to make it on their own, but they're looking for a situation where the patients come to them.

 

[KHE]

No, we have some overflow to get them started but they would make a lot more money a lot faster if they can attract a following of their own.

 

[Ime]

Wait for me..... I would be thrilled applying for your position...if I had already graduated...

 

[vistaril]

No, we have some overflow to get them started but they would make a lot more money a lot faster if they can attract a following of their own.

and they still get the 22% of collections(with materials included in that 22%) even with the overflow? If so, that is an insanely good deal.....the fact that people in this forum arent driving up there to start working has to be an indication things arent that bad out there.

 

[Nikki2620]

And yet in spite of all this negativity, I am currently advertising for a full time private practice position (and I mean a REAL private practice, not a "private practice" inside of a Walmart or a Lenscrafters) and I have not received a single inquiry, and I'm not in the sticks. I'm 90 minutes from New York City and 90 minutes from Boston.

I'm not sure how many new graduates or 4th year students participate in this forum but I've gotten no response.

I'm not even an optometry student yet. I'd be starting this fall. If I was a 4th year student I'd be first in line to take your offer. I'm not trying to find things to complain about with the profession but at the same time, once I start this fall its a done deal. It will require a huge investment of time and money. So I definitely want to keep my eyes open.

 

[Jason K]

and they still get the 22% of collections(with materials included in that 22%) even with the overflow? If so, that is an insanely good deal.....the fact that people in this forum arent driving up there to start working has to be an indication things arent that bad out there.

I've been scratching my head over this one. The last time KHE posted a job listing on here, all anyone head was cricket chirps from those in a position to take it. There's a seat on the life boat, and it's waiting, but apparently, no one needs a real job. (Actually, it's not a dry seat, but it's an ability to hang onto the boat from the outside, with the possibility of one day maybe getting into the nice, warm, dry boat.) This is one of the best optometry gig I've seen in months. It's one spot, for about 1800 newly minted ODs to compete over. Are you 4th years holding out for that big break with America's Best or Cohen's? Or perhaps, a new lease at one of the 27 Sam's Clubs that just popped up within a 5 mile radius of you?

If you guys are interested in some associate positions that pay in the mid to high 60s, with zero incentive and paltry "benefits," PM me.....I've got plenty. 😀

 

[blazenmadison]

And yet in spite of all this negativity, I am currently advertising for a full time private practice position (and I mean a REAL private practice, not a "private practice" inside of a Walmart or a Lenscrafters) and I have not received a single inquiry, and I'm not in the sticks. I'm 90 minutes from New York City and 90 minutes from Boston.

I'm not sure how many new graduates or 4th year students participate in this forum but I've gotten no response.

Have you posted your offer on excelod.com (AOA's job placement website) or your state association?

 

[blazenmadison]

Even optometry schools are starting PA schools. PCO already has one with SCCO's in the works. Even the new optometry school in San Antonio (UIW) is building a PA school UNDER the optometry college!

I think optometry students who are UNSURE about optometry need to reevaluate their decision based on economics/schooling/true interests. If you cannot afford optometry school (150-200k), then you should consider cheaper healthcare education.

I hate it when people say "I really want to be an optometrist because I want to help people see better and help the poor and contribute to world peace. I don't care what I make." Liars. You would not be entering a postgraduate 4 year doctoral program and incur 150k loans in order to provide $20 eye exams and work 6 days a week with no benefits. The ROI of optometry education is currently not worth it. Unless optometry tuition is 1/2 of medical or dental school tuition, you shouldn't consider it. The rule of thumb is: Your student loans should equal to your first year salary.