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blackhole2

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I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum and I am very aware of the negative things with the future optometry job outlook, blah blah blah. Are there any ODs out there that do NOT practice privately and enjoy it? If I still decide to become an optometrist I'll be graduating in the year 2018 (far away, I know) and realistically the job market will probably be worse but oh well. Owning my own private practice will probably be out of reach so that is why I posed the question.

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For those going a corporate route (which will be most of you) there are typically two ways of doing it. You can sublease or be an employee. As a subleasing doc, you just rent the space and your income is based solely on the services you provide. This isn't a bad option, but you will be performing purely vision exams and will not use most of your education. No security here, as long as you are cranking out rx's you will stay.

As an employee, you lose all autonomy and are just that, an employee. You have to keep in mind that corporate interest is about $$. The patient, and the doctor are truly irrelevant. You are a machine that prints rx's, nothing more. Since they get their money from the sale of optical, your use to them is a function of how many exams you crank out per day, that is all. Considerations of serving the patient properly, performing dilated fundus examinations, building relationships with those you serve, are not in any way important.

You take a big hit in personal liability because as an employee you will be seeing tons and tons of patients. Presently, the money is decent, but will be declining as a simple result of supply and demand. There are too many OD's

Ive been a subleasing doc, and I could not see myself staying with it in the long term.
 
You can also own a franchise. Not all corporate chains allow it, but the ones that do, it can be a great way to practice. This is what I'll be doing after graduation. The optometrist that owns the practice does very well and he loves his job. He's not your typical "corporate" OD though, he does a lot of medical stuff instead of just handing out rx's all day. No techs, he does everything himself (except the autorefractor/NCT). I think it's a great way to go.
 
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I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum and I am very aware of the negative things with the future optometry job outlook, blah blah blah. Are there any ODs out there that do NOT practice privately and enjoy it? If I still decide to become an optometrist I'll be graduating in the year 2018 (far away, I know) and realistically the job market will probably be worse but oh well. Owning my own private practice will probably be out of reach so that is why I posed the question.

Rather than resign yourself to that career path, why not start planning and preparing for the career you really want?
 
Rather than resign yourself to that career path, why not start planning and preparing for the career you really want?

Not everyone wants the pressures of opening up their own practices, especially in this economy.
 
Not everyone wants the pressures of opening up their own practices, especially in this economy.

Then don't open cold. Look to purchase a practice. The OP has resigned himself to a commercial fate. Why? What work has he or she done to ensure that he or she will have the career that they desire?

And regarding opening cold, while the economy is tough right now there are some advantages to that. Commercial real estate is dirt cheap right now. You can get contractors desparate for work to do buildouts for a fraction of the cost you could 5 years.

Don't resign yourself to a career path you're not enthusiastic about before you even start school.
 
Then don't open cold. Look to purchase a practice. The OP has resigned himself to a commercial fate. Why? What work has he or she done to ensure that he or she will have the career that they desire?

And regarding opening cold, while the economy is tough right now there are some advantages to that. Commercial real estate is dirt cheap right now. You can get contractors desparate for work to do buildouts for a fraction of the cost you could 5 years.

Don't resign yourself to a career path you're not enthusiastic about before you even start school.

Agreed. I don't think I would have pursued optometry if I knew I would be working in a commercial setting. Just doesn't appeal to me.
 
Then don't open cold. Look to purchase a practice. The OP has resigned himself to a commercial fate. Why? What work has he or she done to ensure that he or she will have the career that they desire?

And regarding opening cold, while the economy is tough right now there are some advantages to that. Commercial real estate is dirt cheap right now. You can get contractors desparate for work to do buildouts for a fraction of the cost you could 5 years.

Don't resign yourself to a career path you're not enthusiastic about before you even start school.

Most grads are loaded with debt, and the idea of incurring even more debt, by, for example, purchasing a practice is a huge no-no.

Even if a recent grad were to purchase an existing practice, initially for the first 1-2 years, the OD would be fighting to break even, and gradually would be making decent money, which would still not be close to the reported AOA average.

On the other hand, a recent grad can choose to work for a corporate entity (walmart), and earn a handsome salary - something private practice will only provide after long and grueling time and monetary investments.
 
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On the other hand, a recent grad can choose to work for a corporate entity (walmart), and earn a handsome salary - something private practice will only provide after long and grueling time and monetary investments.

Sure, going corporate means you'll make more money more quickly - but your salary isn't really going to go anywhere. Owning your own place gives you the opportunity to eventually make more money without having to see upwards of 40 or 50 patients a day.
 
Who's seeing 40 to 50 patients a day?? I want to work there!

Seriously, I am in a corporate sublease, and have began to hate it. You have a high-school grad (not even an optician!) telling you how many patients they expect you to see per hour, and what I can do to help THEM make their stupid numbers. And I didn't just take over someone's lease, I had to purchase the "practice" for a substantial amount of money...so I am even more in debt, need to wait a few years before that's paid off.

Current private practices in my area are too expensive (the good ones) and opening cold is too much of a hassle also. When you have a family to raise, young chidlren, these things have to be considered. It doesn't leave me with too many options.

I'm beginning to think optometry in general is really not the best option for women who have a family, esp if you are still going to "struggle" to make it. I don't think I will ever be out of debt (close to 200k optometry debt, plus purchasing these practices)

Anyone else thinking of a career change? :(
 
Who's seeing 40 to 50 patients a day?? I want to work there!

Seriously, I am in a corporate sublease, and have began to hate it. You have a high-school grad (not even an optician!) telling you how many patients they expect you to see per hour, and what I can do to help THEM make their stupid numbers. And I didn't just take over someone's lease, I had to purchase the "practice" for a substantial amount of money...so I am even more in debt, need to wait a few years before that's paid off.

Current private practices in my area are too expensive (the good ones) and opening cold is too much of a hassle also. When you have a family to raise, young chidlren, these things have to be considered. It doesn't leave me with too many options.

I'm beginning to think optometry in general is really not the best option for women who have a family, esp if you are still going to "struggle" to make it. I don't think I will ever be out of debt (close to 200k optometry debt, plus purchasing these practices)

Anyone else thinking of a career change? :(

Just wondering eyecare, but what did you expect?
 
Sure, going corporate means you'll make more money more quickly - but your salary isn't really going to go anywhere. Owning your own place gives you the opportunity to eventually make more money without having to see upwards of 40 or 50 patients a day.

Totally agree. There are some major trade-offs between PP and Corp.
 
I'm not a practicing OD. I haven't been accepted to a school yet either. I do however have 8 years of experience as an optician and optemetric technician in all avenues of practice. I can tell you the OD's I've worked with who are happy, are the ones who either work as a federal employee, do follow-ups for refractive surgery clinics, work for the school, or have a successful private practice.

Personally I plan on either going through the navy or airforce (currently the army is overrun with OD's) with the HSPS. I do have almost 8 years service as a federal emplyee if I don't go the military route. This is benificial if I choose to not re-enter the military. With the Healthcare Reform Act of 2010 they put some educational benifits in the stack of papers. Part of those benifits was having student loans paid off for 10 years of federal service. I'm sure it only covers federal loans, but anything helps.

With my experience in the industry I have decided I will work as an officer in the military or as a federal employee. I have dealt enough with insurance companies in my life to know I don't want to do it again.
 
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Most grads are loaded with debt, and the idea of incurring even more debt, by, for example, purchasing a practice is a huge no-no.

Why? What better time to have the debt? Once you pay OFF student loans? People are really going to be in the mood to sign up for new debt once student loans are paid off? Not likely.


Even if a recent grad were to purchase an existing practice, initially for the first 1-2 years, the OD would be fighting to break even, and gradually would be making decent money, which would still not be close to the reported AOA average.

$200,000 in student loan debt for 30 years at 6.8% would be: $1303/month.

A practice that nets a doctor $150,000 per year would be expected to sell for AROUND $300,000 (usually twice the net is the ball park in this day and age.)

So if you make $12,500 per month, after taxes (this is with ZERO deductions) and assuming you live in CT, which is one of the HIGHEST rates for state income taxes would leave you with after tax income of $8352. (In reality, it would be much more than this because any accountant will have stuff run through the business, etc. etc. but for argument, let's assume worst case scenario)

So after taxes and your student loan payment you have $7049 left over.

A ten year note on a $300,000 practice purchase at 7% (high, given what interest rates are....I'm using figures from Matsco or other similar companies that lend based on cash flow and are willing to finance 100%) would result in a monthly payment of $3483.25 which leaves disposable income after huge student loan payment and practice loan payment of $3566.

Or....you can do like you said.....work for some commercial guy or some ophthalmologist for $100,000 per year.

What does that come out to?? Hmmm....let's figure that out.....

A monthly after tax income in that scenario would be $5796 per month which then after the student loan payment turns out to be $4493 per month.

That is a difference of $927 per month, you could own your OWN practice which, if you have any brains in your head will grow over time, allow for generous "business deductions" and which once you pay it off will be an extra $3493 in your hot little hand.

On the other hand, working for a commercial place or an ophthalmologist isn't going to allow you to see your salary go up at all because you're going to max out within a few years. A doc with 15 years experience is no more valuable to a commercial joint than a doc with 1 year experience.

On the other hand, a recent grad can choose to work for a corporate entity (walmart), and earn a handsome salary - something private practice will only provide after long and grueling time and monetary investments.

Yep....you go right along and do that. Your postings have shown you to be incapable of success in private practice.

For the rest of you, I just laid it out in black and white. Still want to work evenings and weekends at the mall?
 
KHE how long have you been practicing optometry? Just wondering because you are knowledgeable.
 
Why? What better time to have the debt? Once you pay OFF student loans? People are really going to be in the mood to sign up for new debt once student loans are paid off? Not likely.




$200,000 in student loan debt for 30 years at 6.8% would be: $1303/month.

A practice that nets a doctor $150,000 per year would be expected to sell for AROUND $300,000 (usually twice the net is the ball park in this day and age.)

So if you make $12,500 per month, after taxes (this is with ZERO deductions) and assuming you live in CT, which is one of the HIGHEST rates for state income taxes would leave you with after tax income of $8352. (In reality, it would be much more than this because any accountant will have stuff run through the business, etc. etc. but for argument, let's assume worst case scenario)

So after taxes and your student loan payment you have $7049 left over.

A ten year note on a $300,000 practice purchase at 7% (high, given what interest rates are....I'm using figures from Matsco or other similar companies that lend based on cash flow and are willing to finance 100%) would result in a monthly payment of $3483.25 which leaves disposable income after huge student loan payment and practice loan payment of $3566.

Or....you can do like you said.....work for some commercial guy or some ophthalmologist for $100,000 per year.

What does that come out to?? Hmmm....let's figure that out.....

A monthly after tax income in that scenario would be $5796 per month which then after the student loan payment turns out to be $4493 per month.

That is a difference of $927 per month, you could own your OWN practice which, if you have any brains in your head will grow over time, allow for generous "business deductions" and which once you pay it off will be an extra $3493 in your hot little hand.

On the other hand, working for a commercial place or an ophthalmologist isn't going to allow you to see your salary go up at all because you're going to max out within a few years. A doc with 15 years experience is no more valuable to a commercial joint than a doc with 1 year experience.



Yep....you go right along and do that. Your postings have shown you to be incapable of success in private practice.

For the rest of you, I just laid it out in black and white. Still want to work evenings and weekends at the mall?

Oh ya, he knows. :)
 
Why? What better time to have the debt? Once you pay OFF student loans? People are really going to be in the mood to sign up for new debt once student loans are paid off? Not likely.


$200,000 in student loan debt for 30 years at 6.8% would be: $1303/month.

A practice that nets a doctor $150,000 per year would be expected to sell for AROUND $300,000 (usually twice the net is the ball park in this day and age.)

So if you make $12,500 per month, after taxes (this is with ZERO deductions) and assuming you live in CT, which is one of the HIGHEST rates for state income taxes would leave you with after tax income of $8352. (In reality, it would be much more than this because any accountant will have stuff run through the business, etc. etc. but for argument, let's assume worst case scenario)

So after taxes and your student loan payment you have $7049 left over.

A ten year note on a $300,000 practice purchase at 7% (high, given what interest rates are....I'm using figures from Matsco or other similar companies that lend based on cash flow and are willing to finance 100%) would result in a monthly payment of $3483.25 which leaves disposable income after huge student loan payment and practice loan payment of $3566.

Or....you can do like you said.....work for some commercial guy or some ophthalmologist for $100,000 per year.

What does that come out to?? Hmmm....let's figure that out.....

A monthly after tax income in that scenario would be $5796 per month which then after the student loan payment turns out to be $4493 per month.

That is a difference of $927 per month, you could own your OWN practice which, if you have any brains in your head will grow over time, allow for generous "business deductions" and which once you pay it off will be an extra $3493 in your hot little hand.

On the other hand, working for a commercial place or an ophthalmologist isn't going to allow you to see your salary go up at all because you're going to max out within a few years. A doc with 15 years experience is no more valuable to a commercial joint than a doc with 1 year experience.



Yep....you go right along and do that. Your postings have shown you to be incapable of success in private practice.

For the rest of you, I just laid it out in black and white. Still want to work evenings and weekends at the mall?

You forgot to mention that one would be paying $270K+ in interest, if one chose the 30 year repayment plan. Not a wise decision, especially when interest rates are high @ 6.8%. If the rate was 3% or lower, then it might be a good decision. Yes, $270K is $70K more than what you took out to get your OD degree.

As far as netting 50% of gross, that is not a reality. Let's just assume for a second you purchase a practice that grosses $300K. A $300K practice is probably a practice with old equipment, having a small patient base with limited growth over the past years, with limited staff personnel.

Off the top of my head, business expenses including staff, COG's, rent, general office overhead, equip. and marketing need to be deducted in order to find out the docs true compensation, which is definitely not $150k.

300k (.30 COG + .15 STAFF + .08 RENT + .04 EQUIP + .02 MARK + .07 O-HEAD) =198K in expenses.

So, 300k -198k = 102K - .15 tax(since the PP is itself a small business, I would imagine the tax rate would be much lower than that for an employee/IC)

The net earnings for the OD after working ~45hrs/week would come to a massive ~$ 87,000. But were not done yet!

Remember the 200K loan you took out while trying to earn your degree? What about the practice you just purchased? Well, lets factor that in and see how much you truly make.

~$1300/month or ~ $16K/yr = student loan repayment (30 years)
~$3500/month or ~ $42k/yr = pp loan repayment (10 years)

So, the grand total is: $87k - $16k -$42K = $29K. Yes folks, $29,000 for an individual who has gone through roughly 8 years of school to earn a doctorate degree, whom, might I add, is considered a doctor, I.E. professional.

$29,000 seems like a lot, and is beyond breaking even, but lets consider living expenses.

Mortgage - well, you can't buy a house since you have two loans amounting to over $500K, so let's just keep it a secret and say you rent @ $900/month.

Vehicle and Vehicle insurance - well, since you can't purchase a vehicle right away, you could try to get a auto loan. But you already have two very large loans, so that's out of the question. Leasing seems like the only possibility. It would cost roughly ~$200/month for insurance + a stable vehicle.

Food- since you're loaded with debt, no one in their right mind will want to marry you, so you only have to pay for food for yourself. After eating ramen noodles whilst in school, because you couldn't afford to dine out like your lawyer friends due to the massive 200k loan, you feel you need a reward, and so you spend $150/month for food.

Misc- Internet, phone, association dues, vehicle maintenance, clothes etc etc total approx ~$150/month, which could be slightly increased/decreased.

All in all, necessary living expenses amount to roughly $1400/month, or $17,000/ year, leaving you with roughly $12K of disposable income per year. But wait, couldn't you have made $29K NET working in construction, or perhaps as an optician and have virtually no debt and be 8 years younger!?

So clearly, pp will initially make you its slave, i.e. you're not actually working for yourself, but rather the practice. On the other hand, you could walk into walmart, work 40hrs/per week without having to deal with all the necessary business mambo jumbo, you could be in less debt, be able to afford a house, a car, a family etc etc.

As far as my ability to succeed in private practice, I would have to agree with you, KHE. I much rather be happy earning $150k instead of just $29k.
 
Eventually you do own the Private practice over time. There will be so many new OD's, and I still see numerous listings of practices for sell. Most new grad's do not want to operate in uncertain times.

When I looked at about ten private practices for sell, I suggested half of the asking price, since most were way over valued.
 
You forgot to mention that one would be paying $270K+ in interest, if one chose the 30 year repayment plan. Not a wise decision, especially when interest rates are high @ 6.8%. If the rate was 3% or lower, then it might be a good decision. Yes, $270K is $70K more than what you took out to get your OD degree.

The reason you take the intial 30 year repayment is to not necissarily take 30 years to pay it but to give yourself more cash flow in the early years.

As far as netting 50% of gross, that is not a reality. Let's just assume for a second you purchase a practice that grosses $300K. A $300K practice is probably a practice with old equipment, having a small patient base with limited growth over the past years, with limited staff personnel.

Try reading that again. I never said a practice grossing $300,000. I said a practice netting a doctor $150,000k would be expected to sell for AROUND $300,000 because "twice the owner net" is a ball park figure that most practices sell for. The "gross" of the practice is not figured into this discussion.

Off the top of my head, business expenses including staff, COG's, rent, general office overhead, equip. and marketing need to be deducted in order to find out the docs true compensation, which is definitely not $150k.

All of your calculations are irrelevant because they are based on the incorrect assumption that the PRACTICE is grossing $300,000. I'm talking about a practice NETTING THE DOCTOR $150,000 and selling for $300,000.

So clearly, pp will initially make you its slave, i.e. you're not actually working for yourself, but rather the practice. On the other hand, you could walk into walmart, work 40hrs/per week without having to deal with all the necessary business mambo jumbo, you could be in less debt, be able to afford a house, a car, a family etc etc.

Again, I clearly laid out how a person with "massive student loan debt" could purchase a practice, make their student loan payment, make the payment on the practice note and STILL live a reasonable lifestyle immediately.

As far as my ability to succeed in private practice, I would have to agree with you, KHE. I much rather be happy earning $150k instead of just $29k.

If you think you'll earn that working commercial, you will not unless you are the lease holding doctor in a busy location, which are rare and highly covetted and usually held by long term docs who have multiple leases and employee an army of associate and fill in docs to provide the coverage.

Good luck with that.
 
KHE how long have you been practicing optometry? Just wondering because you are knowledgeable.

I graduated in 2000.

Thanks for the kind words, but understand something.....I'm not really any more knowledgable than any of you. Yes, I have more experience at this and I've been through the wringer a few times but understand that I do NOT have or at least did not have any more "business savvy" or "business accumen" than any of you do. In fact, I'd say that there's a very good chance that many of you have MORE business sense than I do.

That's the thing....you don't NEED a lot of business sense to succeed in this field. People get that into their head. They think that unless they have a Wharton MBA or the skills of Donald Trump that they have no chance. That is NOT true.

I always knew I wanted to have my own practice so in school, I spend some time reading and learning about it. What I found was that it was NOT rocket science. When I graduated, I too had all the same concerns about you guys with respect to debt load etc. etc. I had some bad experiences when I was first out of school.

But when I looked at some of the more successful practices, what I realized was that the doctors were not any more smart, savvy, or "brilliant" than I was. I was convinced that I could do what they were doing. And I did.

And you can too.

So you can fall prey to the downtrodden negativity of socal and others telling you it can't be done and resign yourself to a career working the various malls and "marts" of America, or you can have the practice you dream off, make more money and have more independence.

In one quick posting, I laid out clearly how it WAS financially possible to do so even in this day and age and even with "massive student loan debt" to do it.

So go and do it!
 
I graduated in 2000.

Thanks for the kind words, but understand something.....I'm not really any more knowledgable than any of you. Yes, I have more experience at this and I've been through the wringer a few times but understand that I do NOT have or at least did not have any more "business savvy" or "business accumen" than any of you do. In fact, I'd say that there's a very good chance that many of you have MORE business sense than I do.

That's the thing....you don't NEED a lot of business sense to succeed in this field. People get that into their head. They think that unless they have a Wharton MBA or the skills of Donald Trump that they have no chance. That is NOT true.

I always knew I wanted to have my own practice so in school, I spend some time reading and learning about it. What I found was that it was NOT rocket science. When I graduated, I too had all the same concerns about you guys with respect to debt load etc. etc. I had some bad experiences when I was first out of school.

But when I looked at some of the more successful practices, what I realized was that the doctors were not any more smart, savvy, or "brilliant" than I was. I was convinced that I could do what they were doing. And I did.

And you can too.

So you can fall prey to the downtrodden negativity of socal and others telling you it can't be done and resign yourself to a career working the various malls and "marts" of America, or you can have the practice you dream off, make more money and have more independence.

In one quick posting, I laid out clearly how it WAS financially possible to do so even in this day and age and even with "massive student loan debt" to do it.

So go and do it!


I couldn't agree more.

One more thing...the "massive student loan debt" that causes so much anxiety for most (and did me when I was in school), is really peanuts in the scheme of things. I did $400k in dramatic renovations and equipment upgrades with the practice I bought. I am going to spend another ~$100k on equipment (new OCT, etc) in the next 6 months. Funny how what was once a daunting student loan amount now is the least of my worries ;)
 
My best friend/rommate & I graduated together, but followed very different paths:

He went straight to work @ a Walmart (employee, not lease-holder).
I bought a successful practice from a retiring OD.

We both vowed to have no debt but a mortgage by age 40. We both worked 5 1/2 days a week and live pretty modestly.

We both had paid off our student loans in less than 10 years (I also had my $350K practice loan paid off). By now we were living pretty well and we each built our dream home. I was working 4 1/2 days/week, 1 evening. He was working 5 days/week, 2-3 evenings & Sat.

Now, 17 years later:
He still works 5 days/week, 2 evenings, all day Sat.
I work 4 days, no evenings, 1/2 day Sat & have a 2nd office and 2 associate OD's.

He made more than me for the 1st 3 years, I passed him despite working less and at year 15, doubled his salary. He likes showing up for work, seeing patients, & going home. He makes around $150K/year. He doesn't like his strict hours and the limited vacation.

I love the entrepreneurial aspect of my life, even with the headaches that I often take home with me. I've never missed a school program or ballgame of my kids and now take about 6 weeks of vacation/year. I'll also have the windfall of selling my practice to my associates soon.

Bottom line: We both still enjoy what we do, but greater risk has greater reward & not all OD's have the personality to go that route
 
My best friend/rommate & I graduated together, but followed very different paths:

He went straight to work @ a Walmart (employee, not lease-holder).
I bought a successful practice from a retiring OD.

It's a lot harder to get financing for a new graduate to buy a practice nowadays...unless the retiring OD is seller financing. Was that true in your case?

Wells Fargo(Formerly Matsco,AOA's preferred lending group) requires ODs to have at least 1 year of optometric management/experience before considering a loan for you.

Banks are not lending to you unless you have a lot of collateral...

Bottom line: We both still enjoy what we do, but greater risk has greater reward & not all OD's have the personality to go that route

Great statement! Not everyone should be in managerial position. Some ODs are better as clinicians than practice owners, and vice-versa.
 
It's a lot harder to get financing for a new graduate to buy a practice nowadays...unless the retiring OD is seller financing. Was that true in your case?
The seller financed all but $50K. Many sellers are willing to do this, even today.

Agree that not all OD's are cut out for this, but you'll never reach the top tier of optometrists without some risk.

I bought a small starter house when I moved as well, so before I had even seen 1 patient, I was almost $700K in debt!
And you know something? Paying it off was easy!
 
Wells Fargo(Formerly Matsco,AOA's preferred lending group) requires ODs to have at least 1 year of optometric management/experience before considering a loan for you.

Yes, you need a years experience but it need not be management experience. If you have a decent business plan and your head screwed on straight, they will loan you money.

But seller financing is usually the way to go anyways. It's more advantageous for you AND the seller in almost all cases.

Banks are not lending to you unless you have a lot of collateral...

Also not true. SBA loans are available. How do you think businesses get started in this country? You think every bodaga in NYC was started by people with of assets?

Great statement! Not everyone should be in managerial position. Some ODs are better as clinicians than practice owners, and vice-versa.

That's obviously true and there's nothing wrong with working for someone else for your career. Lots of good, caring, smart doctors have done that. But if YOUR goal is practice ownership, make it happen! Don't resign yourself to a career path you're not enthusastic about because let me tell you something....the only thing worse than taking on $200,000 in student loan debt is taking on $200,000 in student loan debt and that not liking your work.
 
....the only thing worse than taking on $200,000 in student loan debt is taking on $200,000 in student loan debt and that not liking your work.

You can just close the thread here :thumbup:

In 8-months I will be a 1st year....I know I want to end up in the Pacific NW and I have ALREADY begun networking with doctors in the area and am starting to get a much better feel for the practice situations and getting leads on who may be planning their exit in 4-8 years.

I have taken the wisdom of the professionals to heart and started planning for my future now...I highly suggest my fellow pre-optoms do the same. Once you get the OD doesn't mean you've arrived are thus entitled to $xxx,xxx/year. How many of the experienced posters are stating you have to go out and get what you want b/c it isn't going to be given to you?
 
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I have taken the wisdom of the professionals to heart and started planning for my future now...I highly suggest my fellow pre-optoms do the same. Once you get the OD doesn't mean you've arrived are entitled to $xxx,xxx/year and how many of the experienced posters are stating you have to go out and get what you want b/c it isn't going to be given to you.

Never too early. I sometimes wonder if the people who advise students to stay away from this career path expected a $150,000 salary to be handed to them on a silver platter. Come on now, that's not even realistic.
 
The reason you take the intial 30 year repayment is to not necissarily take 30 years to pay it but to give yourself more cash flow in the early years.



Try reading that again. I never said a practice grossing $300,000. I said a practice netting a doctor $150,000k would be expected to sell for AROUND $300,000 because "twice the owner net" is a ball park figure that most practices sell for. The "gross" of the practice is not figured into this discussion.



All of your calculations are irrelevant because they are based on the incorrect assumption that the PRACTICE is grossing $300,000. I'm talking about a practice NETTING THE DOCTOR $150,000 and selling for $300,000.



Again, I clearly laid out how a person with "massive student loan debt" could purchase a practice, make their student loan payment, make the payment on the practice note and STILL live a reasonable lifestyle immediately.



If you think you'll earn that working commercial, you will not unless you are the lease holding doctor in a busy location, which are rare and highly covetted and usually held by long term docs who have multiple leases and employee an army of associate and fill in docs to provide the coverage.

Good luck with that.

Actually, my calculations are right, except that I used 300K as gross income. So, lets say I purchase this practice for $300K and it grosses $450k/year. 450k (.66 overhead etc.) = 150K gross income

150k gross income *.15 tax = 127k-48k debt repayment = 80k.

So, over the next 10 years I will probably make between 80-100k on average, which is totally fine, but I could have gotten this type of income working for a PP, or working at a corporate location 3 days a week, with absolutely no business commitments and no loan repayments except for the student loan repayment.

It's really not worth running a pp if you make 10% more profit, relative to the OD working at walmart, especially in this climate where schools are opening here and there and vision plans are receiving less and less reimbursement.

However, 25 years ago, I would have definitely agreed with you, even though I was still a fetus back then :p
 
Actually, my calculations are right, except that I used 300K as gross income. So, lets say I purchase this practice for $300K and it grosses $450k/year. 450k (.66 overhead etc.) = 150K gross income

150k gross income *.15 tax = 127k-48k debt repayment = 80k.

So, over the next 10 years I will probably make between 80-100k on average, which is totally fine, but I could have gotten this type of income working for a PP, or working at a corporate location 3 days a week, with absolutely no business commitments and no loan repayments except for the student loan repayment.

It's really not worth running a pp if you make 10% more profit, relative to the OD working at walmart, especially in this climate where schools are opening here and there and vision plans are receiving less and less reimbursement.

However, 25 years ago, I would have definitely agreed with you, even though I was still a fetus back then :p

Wow....all things being equal (which they're not), and you would still choose working at Wal Mart?
 
Actually, my calculations are right, except that I used 300K as gross income. So, lets say I purchase this practice for $300K and it grosses $450k/year. 450k (.66 overhead etc.) = 150K gross income

150k gross income *.15 tax = 127k-48k debt repayment = 80k.

So, over the next 10 years I will probably make between 80-100k on average, which is totally fine, but I could have gotten this type of income working for a PP, or working at a corporate location 3 days a week, with absolutely no business commitments and no loan repayments except for the student loan repayment.

It's really not worth running a pp if you make 10% more profit, relative to the OD working at walmart, especially in this climate where schools are opening here and there and vision plans are receiving less and less reimbursement.

However, 25 years ago, I would have definitely agreed with you, even though I was still a fetus back then :p

huh??

What fantasy land do you live in where ODs make 100k per year working 3 days a week at Walmart?

And you still obviously don't get it. Yes, you can work ten years for someone and make 100k per year (which you will work more than 3 days a week, rest assured) and have no loan repayments other than the student loan OR you can purchase a practice that PAYS FOR THE LOAN ITSELF so that at the end of the 10 years, you once your loan is paid off, your salary is going to instantly go up by whatever amount your loan was. 10 years into commercial practice or employed practice and you'll be making that same 80-100k you were 10 years ago, walking past the piles of 25 pounds of dog kibble on the way to your "office" so you can slog away working nights and weekends taking orders from the "optical manager" who transferred over from the photo studio next door and listening to the *boop* *boop* *boop* of cash registers.

Sounds fan freakin' tastic to me. That's what I envisioned for myself after 8 years of college and optometry school, 10 years experience and 200,000k worth of debt! Sign me right up! :p

You don't get it. The whole point is to purchase a practice that allows you live a reasonable lifestyle AND pay off the loan at the same time. And....once that loan is paid off in 5, 7, 10 years.....your salary skyrockets. Perfecto!
 
Actually, my calculations are right, except that I used 300K as gross income. So, lets say I purchase this practice for $300K and it grosses $450k/year. 450k (.66 overhead etc.) = 150K gross income

150k gross income *.15 tax = 127k-48k debt repayment = 80k.

So, over the next 10 years I will probably make between 80-100k on average, which is totally fine, but I could have gotten this type of income working for a PP, or working at a corporate location 3 days a week, with absolutely no business commitments and no loan repayments except for the student loan repayment.

It's really not worth running a pp if you make 10% more profit, relative to the OD working at walmart, especially in this climate where schools are opening here and there and vision plans are receiving less and less reimbursement.

However, 25 years ago, I would have definitely agreed with you, even though I was still a fetus back then :p
Aiming high.:eek:

Let me just ask something....are you an optometrist or still a student?
 
huh??

What fantasy land do you live in where ODs make 100k per year working 3 days a week at Walmart?

And you still obviously don't get it. Yes, you can work ten years for someone and make 100k per year (which you will work more than 3 days a week, rest assured) and have no loan repayments other than the student loan OR you can purchase a practice that PAYS FOR THE LOAN ITSELF so that at the end of the 10 years, you once your loan is paid off, your salary is going to instantly go up by whatever amount your loan was. 10 years into commercial practice or employed practice and you'll be making that same 80-100k you were 10 years ago, walking past the piles of 25 pounds of dog kibble on the way to your "office" so you can slog away working nights and weekends taking orders from the "optical manager" who transferred over from the photo studio next door and listening to the *boop* *boop* *boop* of cash registers.

Sounds fan freakin' tastic to me. That's what I envisioned for myself after 8 years of college and optometry school, 10 years experience and 200,000k worth of debt! Sign me right up! :p

You don't get it. The whole point is to purchase a practice that allows you live a reasonable lifestyle AND pay off the loan at the same time. And....once that loan is paid off in 5, 7, 10 years.....your salary skyrockets. Perfecto!

Sure, I can purchase a practice and live a reasonable lifestyle as you say, but who really knows what will happen 5 years down the road? Instead, I can work in corporate, and guarantee myself a hefty paycheck, without all the business hassles, which should not be overlooked.

It is unwise to get yourself into more debt, while more schools are opening up, and vision plans are reimbursing less. Who knows, you could purchase a practice, and the next year, two more practices are developed near you, which would increase competition for you. On the other hand, corporate locations like walmart, ARE the competiton, so you really will not have trouble at night sleeping, when an OD opens up his 500k PP a couple blocks from you.

If you do want to make more money, I agree that PP is the only viable option, DOWN THE ROAD. Not immediately after graduation, as most suggest. I am beginning to think, most OD's want grads to purchase their practices at a premium, and so they have used the excuse "you will make more money" to sell their practices which aren't selling.

Also, lets face it. Some OD's don't want to operate their own business; probably why they are in school to begin with, so corporate is not as evil as you may deem it to be.
 
....10 years into commercial practice or employed practice and you'll be making that same 80-100k you were 10 years ago, walking past the piles of 25 pounds of dog kibble on the way to your "office" so you can slog away working nights and weekends taking orders from the "optical manager" who transferred over from the photo studio next door and listening to the *boop* *boop* *boop* of cash registers.....

ROFL!!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh: So true....
 
Sure, I can purchase a practice and live a reasonable lifestyle as you say, but who really knows what will happen 5 years down the road? Instead, I can work in corporate, and guarantee myself a hefty paycheck, without all the business hassles, which should not be overlooked.

It is unwise to get yourself into more debt, while more schools are opening up, and vision plans are reimbursing less. Who knows, you could purchase a practice, and the next year, two more practices are developed near you, which would increase competition for you. On the other hand, corporate locations like walmart, ARE the competiton, so you really will not have trouble at night sleeping, when an OD opens up his 500k PP a couple blocks from you.

If you do want to make more money, I agree that PP is the only viable option, DOWN THE ROAD. Not immediately after graduation, as most suggest. I am beginning to think, most OD's want grads to purchase their practices at a premium, and so they have used the excuse "you will make more money" to sell their practices which aren't selling.

Also, lets face it. Some OD's don't want to operate their own business; probably why they are in school to begin with, so corporate is not as evil as you may deem it to be.
It's called delayed gratification, & it seems like there are a lot fewer OD's (and Americans) who understand the principle.

But I agree that we all have the choice on what career path to take & I also agree that not all are cut out for the challenge of running a PP.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet that there is also job security with owning your own practice. Many corporate leases have 30-day out clauses, where you could be unemployed with a month's notice.
 
Sure, I can purchase a practice and live a reasonable lifestyle as you say, but who really knows what will happen 5 years down the road? Instead, I can work in corporate, and guarantee myself a hefty paycheck, without all the business hassles, which should not be overlooked.

But there's no guarantee in corporate practice either. For the 10th time, you're NOT going to get a "hefty paycheck" unless you're the lease holding doctor. If you work for someone else, you'll make little more than any other associate position and your salary will be the same on the last day of your career as it will be on the fist day.

And what happens when the optical you work for hires a new district manager who thinks you need to be open later hours, charge less money, take more walk ins, "recommend" certain brands of contact lenses and spectacle lenses? You planning to get with the program are you planning to assert your doctorly independence? Good luck with that. You'll find out how independent you are. You'll be so independent you won't even work there anymore.

It is unwise to get yourself into more debt, while more schools are opening up, and vision plans are reimbursing less. Who knows, you could purchase a practice, and the next year, two more practices are developed near you, which would increase competition for you. On the other hand, corporate locations like walmart, ARE the competiton, so you really will not have trouble at night sleeping, when an OD opens up his 500k PP a couple blocks from you.

The competition for who? Other Walmarts? Certainly not me. There are all sorts of instances where a Walmart optical is doing reasonably well and they open up a "Sam's Club" accross town and now suddenly you have to low performing commercial operations instead of one mediocre one. What good is that?

If you do want to make more money, I agree that PP is the only viable option, DOWN THE ROAD. Not immediately after graduation, as most suggest. I am beginning to think, most OD's want grads to purchase their practices at a premium, and so they have used the excuse "you will make more money" to sell their practices which aren't selling.

There are plenty of overvalued optometric practices out there that are not worth their asking price. I know. I looked at a bunch of them before finding mine. Private practice ownership is a viable option for just about all optometry graduates quickly after graduation, much sooner than they think or realize. That's the point I'm trying to make! Don't resign yourself to 10-15 years of commercial practice to "pay off student loans" or any of that bull**** if that's not what YOU want. If it is, then more power to you. Enjoy the nights and weekends at the mall. Please pick me up a 5 pound bag of chicken wings from the frozen food section on your way home from the office.

Also, lets face it. Some OD's don't want to operate their own business; probably why they are in school to begin with, so corporate is not as evil as you may deem it to be.

And again, for the 100th time now....there's nothing wrong with working for someone else. Even a commercial dump, though I still fail to see the attraction. Lots of good caring doctors have had fine and distinguished careers working for "someone else."

But if YOUR goal is to not work for someone else and to have YOUR OWN practice, then go down that path! Don't resign yourself to a less desirable career path.
 
KHE, finally we agree on something!

I really enjoy being my own boss, and like the fact that I have complete control over the way I practice. I really can't imagine spending all those years in school, only to work at Wal Mart. A doctor working at Wal Mart...sounds ridiculous to me.
 
It's called delayed gratification, & it seems like there are a lot fewer OD's (and Americans) who understand the principle.

But I agree that we all have the choice on what career path to take & I also agree that not all are cut out for the challenge of running a PP.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet that there is also job security with owning your own practice. Many corporate leases have 30-day out clauses, where you could be unemployed with a month's notice.

It is too much of a risk, to think of it as delayed gratification, in the current optometric environment, imo.
 
But there's no guarantee in corporate practice either. For the 10th time, you're NOT going to get a "hefty paycheck" unless you're the lease holding doctor. If you work for someone else, you'll make little more than any other associate position and your salary will be the same on the last day of your career as it will be on the fist day.

And what happens when the optical you work for hires a new district manager who thinks you need to be open later hours, charge less money, take more walk ins, "recommend" certain brands of contact lenses and spectacle lenses? You planning to get with the program are you planning to assert your doctorly independence? Good luck with that. You'll find out how independent you are. You'll be so independent you won't even work there anymore.



The competition for who? Other Walmarts? Certainly not me. There are all sorts of instances where a Walmart optical is doing reasonably well and they open up a "Sam's Club" accross town and now suddenly you have to low performing commercial operations instead of one mediocre one. What good is that?



There are plenty of overvalued optometric practices out there that are not worth their asking price. I know. I looked at a bunch of them before finding mine. Private practice ownership is a viable option for just about all optometry graduates quickly after graduation, much sooner than they think or realize. That's the point I'm trying to make! Don't resign yourself to 10-15 years of commercial practice to "pay off student loans" or any of that bull**** if that's not what YOU want. If it is, then more power to you. Enjoy the nights and weekends at the mall. Please pick me up a 5 pound bag of chicken wings from the frozen food section on your way home from the office.



And again, for the 100th time now....there's nothing wrong with working for someone else. Even a commercial dump, though I still fail to see the attraction. Lots of good caring doctors have had fine and distinguished careers working for "someone else."

But if YOUR goal is to not work for someone else and to have YOUR OWN practice, then go down that path! Don't resign yourself to a less desirable career path.

I am not sure why you keep making a big deal out of the whole working at walmart and buying your groceries at the same time. It shouldn't be a big deal, honestly.

I am not afraid of hard work, i.e. PP, but with the whole insurance/new school opening/ saturation/ AOA incompetency's, I cannot say for sure that opening a PP is a wise decision. Sure right now it is pretty bad, but what about 5-10 years later, when you have actually bought your practice and need to pay back your loans. I think your calculations would have worked 25 years ago, but optometry has already entered a new age, where customers prefer to purchase glasses and contacts online, or don't mind that an optician fills out a prescription for them etc etc. And let's not forget that massive commercialization has only just begun, imagine what essilor, luxxitoca (spelling), 1-800-contacts etc. have planned for the future.

At this time, I find corporate optometry very enticing, due to the current events concerning optometry, as should most grads. If not, I suppose you can go the PP route, but I would recommend one to be VERY careful and know everything there is to know about the business side of Optometry.- i.e. don't just purchase/open up a PP right after graduation.
 
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I am not sure why you keep making a big deal out of the whole working at walmart and buying your groceries at the same time. It shouldn't be a big deal, honestly.

When I post on here, I'm not directing my comments at you specifically. You've clearly decided that commercial practice is the best route for you, so go for it. I'm posting for the benefit of all the other people who would rather NOT spend their professional careers working nights and weekends at Walmart.

I am not afraid of hard work, i.e. PP, but with the whole insurance/new school opening/ saturation/ AOA incompetency's, I cannot say for sure that opening a PP is a wise decision.

You can never say for sure that anything is a wise decision in life.

Sure right now it is pretty bad, but what about 5-10 years later, when you have actually bought your practice and need to pay back your loans.

Interest rates are at historic lows. Commercial real estate can be had for a song. If you are in an area where access to medical insurance is not an issue, there is probably no BETTER time to open a private practice.

I think your calculations would have worked 25 years ago, but optometry has already entered a new age, where customers prefer to purchase glasses and contacts online, or don't mind that an optician fills out a prescription for them etc etc.

Do you not think that this would happen at Walmart as well?

And let's not forget that massive commercialization has only just begun, imagine what essilor, luxxitoca (spelling), 1-800-contacts etc. have planned for the future.

As with anything in life, you can come up 1000 reasons to NOT do something. And as always, for those reading this, if your goal is not to work commercial, then plan for that career path. Don't resign yourself like our friend socal has done here. Go after what you want instead of letting life roll over you.

At this time, I find corporate optometry very enticing, due to the current events concerning optometry, as should most grads. If not, I suppose you can go the PP route, but I would recommend one to be VERY careful and know everything there is to know about the business side of Optometry.- i.e. don't just purchase/open up a PP right after graduation.

Enticing is a probably a good word.
 
As with anything in life, you can come up 1000 reasons to NOT do something. And as always, for those reading this, if your goal is not to work commercial, then plan for that career path. Don't resign yourself like our friend socal has done here. Go after what you want instead of letting life roll over you.

Enticing is a probably a good word.

I hope it's not everyone's goal to work at Walmart. But with massive student debt and economic circumstances force graduates into that setting. You can make a comfortable living 150k/year. Is it the most professional setting for optometry? No. Does it allow you to use the most of your skills you learned in OD school? Some. An OD I know at Walmart has an Optomap and OCT. He does glaucoma workup/treatments. He removes corneal foreign bodies.

You do have long hours and weekends. After the Texas Lawsuit against Walmart, I heard they have been more flexible and 'friendly' about doctor hours. My friend at Walmart took a month long vacation without a complaint. If you operate the practice more than 10years, Walmart allows you to sell the practice.

There are many different tiers of commercial practice as well. Amercia's Best is probably the 'Worst'.
 
I hope it's not everyone's goal to work at Walmart. But with massive student debt and economic circumstances force graduates into that setting. You can make a comfortable living 150k/year. Is it the most professional setting for optometry? No.

Madison,

I showed in an earlier posting who even with "massive student debt and economic circumstances" that a young graduate could purchase a practice, pay off the loan AND their student debt and still make a comfortable living all while working in and growing their own practice instead of making money for Alice Walton.

Are you currently making $150,000 a year?

Does it allow you to use the most of your skills you learned in OD school? Some. An OD I know at Walmart has an Optomap and OCT. He does glaucoma workup/treatments. He removes corneal foreign bodies.

And I'm sure he bills medical insurances as well and has all the hassle that comes along with that. So if you have all that crap to deal with, why not deal with it in the context of your own practice and make more money?

You do have long hours and weekends. After the Texas Lawsuit against Walmart, I heard they have been more flexible and 'friendly' about doctor hours. My friend at Walmart took a month long vacation without a complaint. If you operate the practice more than 10years, Walmart allows you to sell the practice.

Is she the lease holding doctor? Did she have to provide coverage?
 
Madison,

I showed in an earlier posting who even with "massive student debt and economic circumstances" that a young graduate could purchase a practice, pay off the loan AND their student debt and still make a comfortable living all while working in and growing their own practice instead of making money for Alice Walton.

Are you currently making $150,000 a year?
NO! I am an associate of a private practice.
Is she the lease holding doctor? Did she have to provide coverage?

HE is the lease holding doctor. He provided coverage for only 1 week and the other three weeks he couldn't find coverage. He has a good working relationship with corporate.
 
No one has answered my original question. I guess that tells me very few people, if any on this forum enjoy working commercial and understandably so. As I walked past the vision center in Wal-Mart today, I noticed they had a sign posted that said they accept most Vision Plans. I remember when I talked to the Optometrist there briefly, he said he liked working there. I wonder if he was bull****ting me.
 
When I post on here, I'm not directing my comments at you specifically. You've clearly decided that commercial practice is the best route for you, so go for it. I'm posting for the benefit of all the other people who would rather NOT spend their professional careers working nights and weekends at Walmart.



You can never say for sure that anything is a wise decision in life.



Interest rates are at historic lows. Commercial real estate can be had for a song. If you are in an area where access to medical insurance is not an issue, there is probably no BETTER time to open a private practice.



Do you not think that this would happen at Walmart as well?



As with anything in life, you can come up 1000 reasons to NOT do something. And as always, for those reading this, if your goal is not to work commercial, then plan for that career path. Don't resign yourself like our friend socal has done here. Go after what you want instead of letting life roll over you.



Enticing is a probably a good word.

Walmart will always have customers leading to potential patients, so they probably won't be affected as much as PP. I have seen several patients get their eye exam done, only to walk away with the prescription, and purchase their contacts/ eye glasses online, at a PP.

Though, I am not sure why walmart just doesn't pull the trigger and purchase major online optical suppliers...maybe it isn't as lucrative as I give it credit for.

Also, I am not resigning myself to corporate optometry, lol. I've stated earlier why I'd rather go the corporate route vs PP, and I am/will not be selling out Optometry by going the corporate route.

Eventually, my plan is to indeed own a PP, but I need to get my feet wet first.
 
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