To breast feed or not to breast feed???

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
breck said:
I will absolutely not argue that it would be easy to get women who just had a baby, or anyone else for that matter, on a treadmill and burning 300-500 calories a day. All I'm saying is if these women burn this many extra calories in a day logic dictates that they will make it up in their diet.

Ah, no. Breastfeeding women drink a lot of fluid but our bodies were made to stockpile calories during pregnancy (not just baby but extra stored energy as well) and use them during lactation. I was down to my pre-pregnancy weight at the 6 week visit with each of my children. This is how it is meant to be.

Members don't see this ad.
 
LizzyM said:
Ah, no. Breastfeeding women drink a lot of fluid but our bodies were made to stockpile calories during pregnancy (not just baby but extra stored energy as well) and use them during lactation. I was down to my pre-pregnancy weight at the 6 week visit with each of my children. This is how it is meant to be.

Sounds like a reasonable explanation to me.
 
Good job people. It is sad to see how some doctors proclaim the importance of breastfeeding and just don't do it them self due to self pride. I am glad to see many -pre doc discussing this issue.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thank god someone here has some sense.

FutureDrCynthia said:
I think a woman should be able to choose if she wants to breastfeed or not. And I don't think people should look down on those who choose to bottle feed. I was bottle fed as an infant, and personally I am happy my parents chose to do so! Breast feeding shouldn't be the only option women have. What about those who have jobs? Yeah, there is the pump, but there should be other options than that. Some people simply just don't want to breastfeed, and I think that should be accepted.
 
Hmm, I'm not quite sure what I want to say yet but feel like I need to respond!! I'm a lactation counselor and have been breastfeeding continously since September 2003. ;) I'm breastfeeding as I type this post. :laugh:

My biggest shock - from reading this thread and having discussions with people in general - is how many people need *proof* that breastfeeding is better for babies (and moms!!). We are mammals - meaning we have mammary glands meant to feed our babies. This is *the* thing that we have in common with all other mammals. How can people question that breast milk is not the best for babies? Yes, formula is a lot better than the karo syrup concoction that it was in our parents' generation but it's still not biologically perfect for babies and it never will be. Breast milk is a living substance - formula is not. To say that formula is just as good or close to as good as breast milk completely blows my mind. I think this should be obvious, not something that people need studies to prove to them.

That said - I don't think people who formula feed their kids are feeding them poison or anything. Most formula fed kids do just fine, to the point where you can't really tell formula fed kids from breast fed kids. But honestly, with my children I couldn't see giving them anything but breastmilk based on the information I wrote in the previous paragraph. If I could breastfeed, I was going to ... period.

And it was not easy. It wasn't even easy the second time around when I had already been counseling other moms and helping them breastfeed. The first time around my daughter had severe jaundice. She was supplemented, had a few nursing strikes at a young age, etc. It would have been *so* easy to give up. My second daughter was premature - she also had jaundice (not as severe as my first daughter fortunately but still quite high), was a low birth weight baby, had low glucose levels her first 24 hours of life and ended up being supplemented, needed to be on oxygen while nursing for the first month of her life, etc. The second time around I also had issues - postpartum depression, low milk supply for the first 4 weeks that finally resolved when we discovered the cause - a retained placental fragment that resulted in a secondary postpartum hemorrhage and uterine infection. Fun stuff seriously ....

It would have been easy to give up. I could have justified it and I'm sure both of my daughters would have been fine. But for me, formula wasn't an option (a lot like Doula-2-OB alluded to with her own children earlier).

As a lactation counselor, my goal is to help as may women breastfeed who want to. There are a certain number of women who for whatever reason do not want to breastfeed. I used to feel differently, but I've since decided that if a mom doesn't want to that is her choice. My goal is to support women who do choose to breastfeed - because unfortunately a very large percentage of moms want to breastfeed but then give up. It's *hard*, especially in the beginning. There is a lot of misinformation out there - much of it we have already seen in this thread. There are very few foods you need to avoid, you can drink alcohol. Heck, you can get completely wasted if your baby is being cared for by someone else and you don't even need to pump and dump your breastmilk. Alcohol leaves milk as it leaves your bloodstream. Most medications are safe while breastfeeding (exceptions here obviously, but only in special circumstances). I want to help women who think they need to stop but don't really want to, or are having temporary frustrations and want to give up. A little support and encouragement in these situations can go a long way as I have discovered in my work.

Well, this is already a novel of a post so I'll stop for now. I tend to stay out of debates but I couldn't avoid this one.
 
jota_jota said:
My problem with the La Leche Nazis, and this whole issue, in general, is the EXTREMELY judgemental attitude taken against people who formula feed for ANY reason. My wife has gotten crap that she does not deserve about our decision to formula feed our baby.

Initially, my wife wanted to breastfeed our son, but he was a GD baby, and needed to be fed IMMEDIATELY after he was born. The nurses let my wife try to breastfeed for 5 minutes, whereupon he was taken away and fed formula. In the next 2 days, my wife tried to breastfeed. She saw the lactation consultant, who just said, "Oh, don't worry, he'll definitely like the breast milk better," but he didn't. For the next week or two, my wife continued to try to feed him breast milk. He wouldn't latch on, and when she pumped and tried to feed him breast milk, he didn't like it. Now you may think that we were lazy for just feeding him formula in those instances, but when you have a screaming, crying, hungry baby at 4am, when your wife has post-partum depression, you feed him the bottle.

In the end, he just didn't like breast milk. However the La Leche Nazis think that we deprived our child of his "right to be breastfed." F- them.



I also wanted to breastfeed my daughter, but complications with her health and mine prevented it.

I got extremely poor advice from the lactation consultants/LLL nursing nazis in the days after my daughter's birth. So poor that said advice resulted in a confrontation between our pediatrician and the head LC...


LacCon: "newborn babies don't need to eat that much... it's OK that you don't have milk yet (4 days post-partum)... just put the baby on the breast every two hours and pump every two hours and see if you get some milk... formula is really bad for babies..."

Ped: "your child has a serious medical condition that is not resolving... I will allow her to go home with you provided she is fed every two hours for the next 24 hours... since you don't have your milk yet you will need to use formula... I will see you in my office tomorrow morning to see if her condition is improved... if not we will need to consider our options..."

My doctor told me - no kidding - that had I followed the instructions of the Lactation consultants, my daughter might well have died or been seriously injured.

If I have another child, I am going to ban the Lactation Consultants/LLL people from my room. I got better breastfeeding advice (positioning, latch-on, etc.) from the nurses.
 
Curiosity: I remember coming across a little kernel of random information some time back. A man is capable of lactating and breast feeding. How does a guy kick start this? What do most of you think about this idea? How much does a guy change? Is it restrictive to certain ages, body types, other parameters (I have a hard time visualizing some huge barrel chested extremely hairy middle-aged man guiding his kid to his nipple)? Basically, what's the scoop on man feeding?
 
Redneck said:
Curiosity: I remember coming across a little kernel of random information some time back. A man is capable of lactating and breast feeding. How does a guy kick start this? What do most of you think about this idea? How much does a guy change? Is it restrictive to certain ages, body types, other parameters (I have a hard time visualizing some huge barrel chested extremely hairy middle-aged man guiding his kid to his nipple)? Basically, what's the scoop on man feeding?

As a lactation counselor, I have never heard of this. It's hard enough for a woman who has never been pregnant to induce lactation - not impossible but requires lots of hormones and patience.

Interesting thought, though. I'd like to see a reference for this if someone knows of one.
 
Men will get quite pretty boobs if they have germ-cell tumors squashing their pituitary. To my understanding they are non-functional because there is no organized development of glandular tissue.
 
Redneck said:
Curiosity: I remember coming across a little kernel of random information some time back. A man is capable of lactating and breast feeding.
I've seen mention of this too. It was on a *really* crunchy granola tree-hugger new age type website, but I couldn't tell you the exact reference. The husband had been doing some various meditation and visualization techniques, combined I think with pretty intensive pumping. His breasts swelled and eventually he did produce some fluid (you've got some mammary tissue there, it's just vestigial and not generally functional - though I think it's not all that odd for pubescent boys to get some secretion from the nipples). It's pretty well documented that intense meditation can change all sorts of physiolgical parameters... I think he probably just managed to raise his estrogen and oxytocin levels enough to wake that tissue up a bit. *However* the fluid he produced was not really anything like female breast milk, in that it wasn't milky and certainly wasn't going to be enough nutrition for the baby. So they ended up just using it as a bonding thing, even though baby was still being fed essentially entirely by mama.

I wonder... Transsexual men (that is, male->female transition) take loads of estrogen and get boobs. I wonder if the mammary tissue becomes more developed too...
 
Breastfeeding is wonderful and cheap. Bottle feeding is fine, the drawbacks are the cost and cleaning bottles. But breastfeeding should be the norm and expected.
 
:oops: if someone has already mentioned this, I apoligize, but what about simply pumping breast milk and feeding it with a bottle? this way, the baby is still geting important antibodies, but the mother is not tied to always having to be physically present when the baby is being fed..

I think this is a good compromise no?
 
the baby is still geting important antibodies, but the mother is not tied to always having to be physically present when the baby is being fed..

I think this is a good compromise no?

Except that it triples the workload. First you have to pump, then you have to feed, and finally you have to wash and boil the bottles/nipples/pump assembly.

It does work great for the feeds while mom is at work, during roadtrips and occasionally for the 3am feed if as a way to give mom a break.

Some women with either premature babies, inverted nipples or other troubles for 'regular' breastfeeding have no other choice but to pump.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
f_w said:
Except that it triples the workload. First you have to pump, then you have to feed, and finally you have to wash and boil the bottles/nipples/pump assembly.

It's true that pumping daily is time-consuming and logistically difficult. But I think it's too bad that nursing moms decide to wean their babies completely once they return to work if they don't want to pump. Why not nurse the baby in the morning and evening, while giving formula in the day? Baby still benefits from being partially breastfed, without all the pumping inconvenients. Breastfeeding doesn't have to be all-or-none...
 
Everyone mentions how breastfeeding is best for mother and baby, but how about the father? He saves over $1,000 in formula (for one year), he's the only one in the family who's sleeping peacefully through the night, and he's able to "enjoy" mommy more often while she has lactational amenorrhea.

More money, more sleep, more sex. What else does a man need? :D
 
My mom didn't produce enough milk for me, and she dried up shortly after I was born. I was born in China a quarter of a century ago, there was no formula imported but there was a (cow's) milk factory nearby and I got my bottle of milk everyday delivered thanks to Chairman Mao LOL. I turned out ok, maybe I could have been a genius or something, who knows?

My dad was even worse off. Since my paternal grandmother didn't have any milk and dad was born shortly after the civil war in China ended, milk was a luxury no one could afford so he was fed on rice broth. He and his five siblings managed to subsist on this I guess. Maybe they could have all been smarter, who knows?

I know breastmilk is best, but it seems like lack of breastmilk is a common thing, at least in developing nations. I doubt the lack of breastmilk is as dire as people say they are, especially in this country. In fact, I am more apt to agree that mother's milk in poor nations is much more needed due to lack of clean drinking water. Of all the things that could contribute to a child's development, breastmilk is kind of down on my list since the advent of formula.

I think my parents wished they had access to formula when I was little, however inferior it is to mother's milk, it sure bets cow's milk.
 
Why not nurse the baby in the morning and evening, while giving formula in the day?

Often there is no other option than to do this. But what tends to happen is that the boobs adjust their production to the amount taken out every day. Once you start feeding formula without pumping the 'skipped' meals, it can sometimes start a vicious cycle of declining milk production increased formula feeding......

he's the only one in the family who's sleeping peacefully through the night,

I guess you haven't had a breastfed newborn yet. 'sleeping peacefully' and a little one don't go together too often, formula or breast.

and he's able to "enjoy" mommy more often while she has lactational amenorrhea.

Don't bet on that (the amenorrhea I mean).
 
f_w said:
Often there is no other option than to do this. But what tends to happen is that the boobs adjust their production to the amount taken out every day. Once you start feeding formula without pumping the 'skipped' meals, it can sometimes start a vicious cycle of declining milk production increased formula feeding......

I guess you haven't had a breastfed newborn yet. 'sleeping peacefully' and a little one don't go together too often, formula or breast.

Don't bet on that (the amenorrhea I mean).


It was just a joke... Breastfeeding: best for baby, mommy, and daddy!

I am still breastfeeding my 10-month old, actually. So yes, I have had a breastfed newborn, and he did wake up every 90 to 120 minutes for the first 4 or 5 weeks. BUT my DH did sleep peacefully through the night! After a week or so, he just stopped waking up when the baby cried to be fed. I guess his brain realized he wasn't needed, so he didn't bother waking up anymore. I remember him, one morning, after I got up about 5 times, asking me "did he sleep through?" Let me tell you, it only took one look for him to understand that 1) no, baby didn't sleep through, and 2) don't you ever dare ask me that again. If you didn't hear anything, it's because you were snoring like a drunk...

Now coming back to morning/evening, I understand that milk production would decrease to adapt to the reduced feedings, but if you stick to feeding at these times every day, you should still have milk for those feedings, right? As you said, the breasts adapt to produce exactly the amount taken out. The key of course would be to never substitute formula for a nursing at those times. I just think it's too bad that many women, when they can't breastfeed exclusively anymore (for one reason or another) stop altogether. As I said, it doesn't have to be all-or-none (if all is not possible anymore).

As for the amenorrhea, I just added that as a joke, because guys, good luck trying to convince mommy when she hasn't slept more than 90 consecutive minutes in weeks! :laugh:
 
It was just a joke... Breastfeeding: best for baby, mommy, and daddy!

LoL, I guess I didn't catch that.
BUT my DH did sleep peacefully through the night! After a week or so, he just stopped waking up when the baby cried to be fed.n I guess his brain realized he wasn't needed, so he didn't bother waking up anymore.

Still wake up, not every time, but if asked to. While I can't feed the little guy, burping and changing him cuts down the sleep loss for mommy a bit.
As for the amenorrhea, I just added that as a joke, because guys, good luck trying to convince mommy when she hasn't slept more than 90 consecutive minutes in weeks!

Never had that problem, consider myself lucky.

As for the amenorrhea. I know two kids of family/friends who misunderstood the thing with the decreased fertility as an invitation to remain unprotected. Both couples ended up with 2 kids in diapers at a time ;)
 
Ah, your wife is lucky (and so are you, apparently ;) ) ... I'm sure my DH would have woken up if asked, but I sort of took charge of the nights from day one, and he got used to it very quickly. I always figured that since I was up already, he might as well sleep! And that's exactly what he did!!!

As for the amenorrhea, I've heard similar stories... My OB was very clear that it was totally unreliable as a contraception method, especially once solids are introduced. I guess it varies a lot depending on the person.

Good luck with your little guy!
 
f_w said:
As for the amenorrhea. I know two kids of family/friends who misunderstood the thing with the decreased fertility as an invitation to remain unprotected.
I just can't resist chiming in with a factoid I learned recently. Nursing is an extremely effective form of birth control, if you do it right. Problem is, doing it "right" (i.e. the way it's done in pick-an-African-tribe) involves nursing the kid for 2-3 minutes, every 15-60 minutes, around the clock, for 3 or 4 years. This keeps prolactin levels high all day. The Western method of nursing your kid every 4 hours or so means that you spend at least 3/4 of your time with no prolactin secretion, which is plenty to let the occasional egg squeeze through. Of course, it's pretty much not humanly possible to nurse the "right" way in a society that's so shy about mamas slinging their boobs around in public - keeping me alone in my house doing nothing but nursing an infant around the clock would cost you *way* more than a box of condoms, daddy-o. ;)

EDIT: Saying "pick-an-African-tribe" was perhaps unfortunately cavalier of me, I just didn't have time to check my facts and come up with the right name. As something of a flame-shield I'll say the piece I read was specifically referencing a study of the Bushmen hunter-gatherers in the Kalahari desert, but the article gives the idea it's a common practice in similar societies.
 
kate_g said:
Of course, it's pretty much not humanly possible to nurse the "right" way in a society that's so shy about mamas slinging their boobs around in public - keeping me alone in my house doing nothing but nursing an infant around the clock would cost you *way* more than a box of condoms, daddy-o. ;)

Don't even get me started about the way public breastfeeding is perceived in our society... I'm not showing a square inch of skin, and I'm FEEDING my child, not exposing myself. So I will nurse wherever I am, whether people like it or not. They can be offended all they want!!!
 
Actually that campaign is coming to an end. In fact, I thought it was already over. Unsuccessful and disturbing really. Not a good way to market to mothers-to-be regardless what they chose to do.

Just like most other things related to the female reproductive organs it shouldn't be a matter of public opinion or government initiative whether one breastfeeds or not.

The ads were *supposed* to get your attention and be an avenue of education as to why breastfeeding is a good thing. It is. That doesn't mean formula fed babies will grow tentacles or lose brain cells and what not.

Still, the ads were in an effort to bring breastfeeding back to the forefront since formula has overtaken the industry and many people believe it is just as good or better (it's not, but it's close. There are plenty of studies to show this and even formula containers state "second best to nature" and the like).

But people like to whine, complain, and impose themselves on others in unnecssary fashion. Ask about circumcision, there's one you'll get heated conversations about.

The ads were terrible. The company hired to produce the ads and those who OKd them need to take a step back and actually think what they're saying. It was poorly done, but it got your attention.
 
Just like most other things related to the female reproductive organs it shouldn't be a matter of public opinion or government initiative whether one breastfeeds or not.

Feeding kids has nothing to do with the female reproductive system.

Why should this be off limits for public policy ? What makes it different from smoking ?
 
66Lenses said:
Just like most other things related to the female reproductive organs it shouldn't be a matter of public opinion or government initiative whether one breastfeeds or not.

I missed the news bulletin where tits had become the new {"sacred cow", no pun intended. Was that a press release from NOW or merely a blog in the socialist worker's daily?

Yes, female reproductive organs are a matter of public domain because WE as a nation have to care for all the below average, bedwetting children that result from the failure to breastfeed. If its a small percentage, this is a BIG country, lots of people!

Free country or not, you should do what is required to be a good citizen, be that picking up garbage, recycling, buying an energy efficient car or f'king BREASTFEEDING.

Please dont revel in your selfishness, it isnt attractive.
 
Try as I might I just can't get the little sucker to latch on.

Oh **** it's just my gym sock.
 
My wife is breast feeding our two week old daughter. She has three months maternity leave. Our concern is the practicality of breastfeeding when she returns to work.
Her employer (a large pharma corp) has no private areas for her to pump. How is that legal?
Social norms do not encourage women to breast feed in semi public; even if she does her best to cover up.

LADoc00 said:
Free country or not, you should do what is required to be a good citizen, be that picking up garbage, recycling, buying an energy efficient car or f'king BREASTFEEDING.
[/B]
Good idea. Let's imprison new mothers for the good of their children & society. :scared:
 
Lindyhopper said:
Our concern is the practicality of breastfeeding when she returns to work.
I suspect that part of what goes with the most militant "it's your duty to breastfeed your child" mentality as expressed a couple posts ago is the belief if she was truly a good wife and mother then she'd be at *home* where she belongs, not selfishly out having a career at the expense of her child's nutrition (and her additional duty to have dinner on the table when you get home).

That said, isn't there a "family leave act" that says you can take off six months for family reasons and be guaranteed to not lose your job? I guess it's unpaid leave, but for some that might be a workable compromise.
 
The decision should be made by the mother - period. Not the Le Leche League or even the physician. Every mother's situation is different and requires a solution that will be the best fit. I have known women who have started out with breast feeding, but for reasons ranging from the child's dissatisfaction with the program, to them returning to work and not being able to pump during the day. It all varies. Oh - and let's not forget about stress! That'll dry the well pretty fast. I breast fed my first born and it did very little to quell the ear infections, strep throat and allergies he developed along the way.
 
Does anyone have any info on frozen pumped milk. In our parent's education class this was suggested. Our concern is that it may compromise some of the advantages of breast feeding.
While my wife's on leave she's both exclusively breast feeding & deep freezing pumped milk. Months from now my wife will be exposed to different antigens & expressing different antibodies. Breast milk also changes with the babies changing developmental needs. Any info is appreciated.
 
Lindyhopper said:
My wife is breast feeding our two week old daughter. She has three months maternity leave. Our concern is the practicality of breastfeeding when she returns to work.
Her employer (a large pharma corp) has no private areas for her to pump. How is that legal?
Social norms do not encourage women to breast feed in semi public; even if she does her best to cover up.


Good idea. Let's imprison new mothers for the good of their children & society. :scared:

Congrats on your daughter! I applaud anyone who would work and still maintain breastfeeding. It is a difficult task. If your wife desires to do it just seek out the support of others who have been successful for encouragment. I was home so for me it would have been more work to bottle feed. We really should just support each other and have compassion. I did nurse all my children but try soooo hard to not have any "attitude" about it. It is hard because sometimes I just felt jealous at the way my friends who bottlefed could just pick up and go (leave baby with a sitter etc.) For me it was just more work than it was worth to be gone for too long.

Again, I encourage you to inform yourself and know that anything you desire is possible. There are ways to make working and nursing work...but no solution will be without some stress. Having 3 months is wonderful. And you don't have to make any concrete decisions now...enjoy, enjoy, enjoy these next weeks together. You will hear this a million times but they really do grow-up so quickly. I turn 30 next month and my oldest is already at my shoulder height (age 8).

Hang in there!
 
Lindyhopper said:
My wife is breast feeding our two week old daughter. She has three months maternity leave. Our concern is the practicality of breastfeeding when she returns to work.
Her employer (a large pharma corp) has no private areas for her to pump. How is that legal?
Social norms do not encourage women to breast feed in semi public; even if she does her best to cover up.

Congrats on daddyhood!

About pumping at work, if it is important to your wife, you should check your state's statutes. I believe many (if not most) states REQUIRE the employer to make accomodations for the pumping mom, including providing a private area. Since this is a large company, I really can't see them refusing. Has she asked if she could get accomodations?

About frozen breastmilk, I believe it does lose *some* of its immunological benefits, but not all! I did find that the smell/taste changed if frozen for a long time (more than 2 months), but it's still safe, if baby will have it. To minimize that, try to get as much air out of the bags as possible. I found the Gerber Seal N'Go bags to be great for that. You can even freeze them flat and then stack them. Will take a lot less room in you freezer.

Also, if it becomes too hard for her to pump, don't forget that she can keep nursing in the morning and evening. She won't dry up! Her milk production will adjust to the new needs. She will produce less milk in the day (when you can give your daughter formula), but will still have milk when baby needs, as long as she doesn't skip those morning/evening feedings.

Finally, about public breastfeeding, as I've said earlier, there's no need to be shy about it. All states allow public breastfeeding. I personally couldn't care any less about social norms. I know I'm not doing anything wrong and I am discrete, so all the prudes can look away if they're not happy. It's actually only a minority of people who disapprove. Most people don't care.
 
Lindyhopper said:
Her employer (a large pharma corp) has no private areas for her to pump. How is that legal?
Social norms do not encourage women to breast feed in semi public; even if she does her best to cover up.

Her employer has no bathrooms? I think that IS illegal.
 
jota_jota said:
Her employer has no bathrooms? I think that IS illegal.

Are you suggesting that she should pump in the bathroom? Or are you just making a joke because he said there are no private areas? I'm thinking it's the second, but just for the sake of discussion

If anyone thinks she should pump in the restroom, I'd suggest they go take their own lunch in there and tell me how they felt. Restrooms are not sanitary and nursing moms should not be pressured to either pump or nurse their babies in there.
 
I am an employer and if anyone needs to pump, they can do it wherever they feel like (if someone has a problem seeing a partial bare breast they need to go back to elementary school), if there is no place they feel comfortable doing it at because of staring, Im more than welcome to vacate my own exec office to let them have some peace....

Why can people parade down the street have semi-naked in leather bondage but women feel so oppressed that they cant feed babies...what sorry excuse of a mammalian species have we become. Everyone should be ashamed of this! I think all female nudity laws should be repealed, lets titties be free I say!!
 
Here's a short, easy to read, reasonably current review. I pasted the abstract. The entire article is a free download though PubMed.

On p.8 the author writes, "While fresh breast milk has the highest quality, most of the milk's protective & nutritive value is maintained despite refrigeration or freezing." :thumbup:

I'd also like to thank everyone for their coments & well wishes.
---------------


Returning to work while breastfeeding.

Biagioli F.

Department of Family Medicine, Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine, Portland, Oregon, USA. [email protected]

Mothers who work outside the home initiate breastfeeding at the same rate as mothers who stay at home. However, the breastfeeding continuance rate declines sharply in mothers who return to work. While the work environment may be less than ideal for the breastfeeding mother, obstacles can be overcome. Available breast pump types include manual pumps, battery-powered pumps, electric diaphragm pumps, electric piston pumps, and hospital-grade electric piston pumps. Electric piston pumps may be the most suitable type for mothers who work outside the home for more than 20 hours per week; however, when a mother is highly motivated, any pump type can be successful in any situation. Conservative estimates suggest that breast milk can be stored at room temperature for eight hours, refrigerated for up to eight days, and frozen for many months. A breastfeeding plan can help the working mother anticipate logistic problems and devise a practical pumping schedule. A mother's milk production usually is well established by the time her infant is four weeks old; it is best to delay a return to work until at least that time, and longer if possible.
 
Baby Einstein said:
Are you suggesting that she should pump in the bathroom? Or are you just making a joke because he said there are no private areas? I'm thinking it's the second, but just for the sake of discussion

If anyone thinks she should pump in the restroom, I'd suggest they go take their own lunch in there and tell me how they felt. Restrooms are not sanitary and nursing moms should not be pressured to either pump or nurse their babies in there.
My comment was mostly made in jest to illustrate a point, but I wonder if you have ever seen the inside of a typical corporate ladies room (with a "foyer," etc.) Anyways, why should employers be required to provide a "special" area for breast-pumping mothers? If there are no empty offices, etc where you can go to pump, why not go home, or go to your child's daycare to feed them? What, it's not CONVENIENT? I'm sure it's not too convenient for your employer to provide a special breastfeeding room, either....especially because feeding a child breast milk is NOT REQUIRED.

My employer does provide a private room to be used for whatever, but most breast-pumping moms (at least the 2 that I know) were pissed because most of the time it was used by people sleeping at work (with the door locked.) Providing such privacy is dangerous for an employer and productivity.
 
velo said:
Women certainly have a choice whether or not to breatfeed, but we also have a right to criticize them for making a poor choice.

That seems contradictory. If you've already decided that one option is a "poor choice," you're not actually giving the mothers a real choice at all.

I'd want to breastfeed my children if I have any, just as I was breastfed myself, but I acknowledge that some women may decide not to -- it doesn't make them horrible baby-killers who want to put their child at a mental/physical disadvantage. What about working mothers, or mothers who don't have much milk? Or fathers who want to be more involved with their child? I say you should inform people of the pros and cons of both sides, and then let them make up their own minds without worrying about being criticized for "making a poor choice."
 
I wasn't breast fed, and my immune system has always been just fine.

I wasn't breast fed. Neither was my husband (adopted). We were both pretty healthy babies.

Hearing this kind of logic in a forum for healthcare providers is a very scary thing.

R_C_
 
jota_jota said:
My comment was mostly made in jest to illustrate a point, but I wonder if you have ever seen the inside of a typical corporate ladies room (with a "foyer," etc.) Anyways, why should employers be required to provide a "special" area for breast-pumping mothers? If there are no empty offices, etc where you can go to pump, why not go home, or go to your child's daycare to feed them? What, it's not CONVENIENT? I'm sure it's not too convenient for your employer to provide a special breastfeeding room, either....especially because feeding a child breast milk is NOT REQUIRED.

My employer does provide a private room to be used for whatever, but most breast-pumping moms (at least the 2 that I know) were pissed because most of the time it was used by people sleeping at work (with the door locked.) Providing such privacy is dangerous for an employer and productivity.

Sure, some restrooms are cleaner than others. But the foyer would be in front of the door right? I wouldn't exactly want to pump in front of the door that's constantly being opened and closed, nor would I want people walking in front of me while pumping, even if it's other women. You are a lot more exposed when pumping than when nursing a baby, and it's not exactly a flattering thing to see...

Now an empty office, or any room with a door that closes would work. Even a cubicle (with my back to the traffic), would be fine with me, but probably not to every woman. I'm not saying there should be a "pumping room" reserved for that function only. Of course not. Just an area where women can pump discretely and privately. As for going to the daycare to feed the baby, I suspect the objection would come from the employer rather than the mom.

I think there are advantages to the employer as well, since it has been proven that breastfeeding moms have fewer healthcare claims (for themselves or their babies) and less absenteeism. I can provide you with references if you'd like.
 
Writer1985 said:
That seems contradictory. If you've already decided that one option is a "poor choice," you're not actually giving the mothers a real choice at all.

I'd want to breastfeed my children if I have any, just as I was breastfed myself, but I acknowledge that some women may decide not to -- it doesn't make them horrible baby-killers who want to put their child at a mental/physical disadvantage. What about working mothers, or mothers who don't have much milk? Or fathers who want to be more involved with their child? I say you should inform people of the pros and cons of both sides, and then let them make up their own minds without worrying about being criticized for "making a poor choice."


I don't think it's contradictory at all. People have the right to smoke, drink, whatever they want, but we have a right to criticize them for it.

No one is talking about child abuse here. Breastfeeding is not right for everyone, and is not even possible for everyone. There are very few nipple nazis around! No one forces women to nurse. But women should be strongly encouraged to breastfeed by their physicians, just like they should be strongly encouraged to lead a healthy lifestyle, eat right, exercise, not smoke, etc.
 
Hi Everyone ... I didn't read all the posts, so someone may have already mentioned this, but the American Academy of Pediatrics wrote a position paper and guidelines in their support of breastfeeding - I think it's from 2005. Plus, for those who will be pediatricians and family docs etc, the AAP also has a recent position paper on breastfeeding and neonatal jaundice. Enjoy.
 
Baby Einstein said:
Now an empty office, or any room with a door that closes would work. Even a cubicle (with my back to the traffic), would be fine with me, but probably not to every woman. I'm not saying there should be a "pumping room" reserved for that function only. Of course not. Just an area where women can pump discretely and privately. As for going to the daycare to feed the baby, I suspect the objection would come from the employer rather than the mom.

Every corporate employee gets a lunch break. Mom could do whatever she wants then. Besides, nearly EVERY [working] mother at my son's daycare goes there to feed their child throughout the day. I question whether you have ever worked in a corporate setting and/or had a child in daycare.

I think there are advantages to the employer as well, since it has been proven that breastfeeding moms have fewer healthcare claims (for themselves or their babies) and less absenteeism. I can provide you with references if you'd like.

First of all, I don't think the specific number of claims necessarily influences the rates that the employer pays for group healthcare coverage. Moreover, the poster with this problem said that his wife worked for a "large pharma company." What percentage of the workforce do you think is breastfeeding at any given time? Nowadays, it is becoming more common practice for employers to pass increases in healthcare premiums on to their employees, so, to some extent, the employer would only care if the increased healthcare cost came out of their pocket. I acknowledge that there are many employers that DO NOT pass increased healthcare costs onto their employees, but, once again, I would think that the number of breastfeeding moms in a large company at any given time would be essentially insignificant. Things, of course, MIGHT be different for a small business that actually provides health insurance to its employees.

I really doubt that it is the case that there are truly NO private areas for Mom to pump in the offices of a large pharma company. Get off your a$$, stop whining, and look harder!

Jota
 
jota_jota, you're right, I've never worked in a corporate setting, so I shouldn't comment on it. I do have a breastfed child in daycare though, unfortunately not an on-site daycare. I agree with you that pharma guy's wife should be able to find a private area. Otherwise, she can ask her employer to accomodate her. Maybe it's not convenient for the employer, but it's the law, at least in my state.

I reacted to the bathroom comment because I've been told a couple of times (and I've overheard a lot of times) that I should nurse my kid in the toilets... I didn't take too kindly to that. I'm sure you wouldn't want your son to be fed on the throne either.
 
The American Academy of Peds. recommends that Breast feeding for the first six months of life.
The reviewer that I link to identifies a large drop off in the number of mothers who continue to breast feed after returning to work.
I think it becomes important for us as a culture to become more breast feeding friendly.
My wife's personal issue centers around her firms adopting an "open office" configuration & I assure you the problem of finding a private place to pump is real.

jota_jota said:
First of all, I don't think the specific number of claims necessarily influences the rates that the employer pays for group healthcare coverage. . . . Nowadays, it is becoming more common practice for employers to pass increases in healthcare premiums on to their employees, . . .

I really doubt that it is the case that there are truly NO private areas for Mom to pump in the offices of a large pharma company. Get off your a$$, stop whining, and look harder!

This "who pays the insurance premium argument" seems to acknowledge that the underlying health costs are real in both human & financial terms. Your only argument seems to center on how & wheather these costs are passed along. While this may be important for the bottomline of an individual firm, it's a terrible basis for public health policy.

Your final quote seems to completely contridict your earlier post. You claim that employers shouldn't be required to provide private areas for mother's to pump breast milk, (I'm not sure of your reasons) but than claim my wife's employer obviously "really" does provide such private places.

Incidentally, my wife has gone to great length to pump as much as she can stand. First our daughter was in the NICU & could not nurse. My wife began pumping to insure that she would continue expressing milk & start building a frozen supply. Now she exclusively nurse's our daughter while pumping & deep freezing milk for when she returns to work.
 
Lindyhopper said:
A few points the American Academy of Peds. recommends that Breast feeding for the first six months of life.
The reviewer that I link to identifies a large drop off in the number of mothers who continue to breast feed after returning to work.
I think it becomes important for us as a culture to become more breast feeding friendly.
My wife's issue centers around her firms adopting an "open office" configuration & I assure you the problem of finding a private place to pump is real.

Then she can just go home or to daycare to pump. No big deal, right? Oh, it's inconvenient? So sorry....LOTS of things are inconvenient. If her employer doesn't allow her to go home to do this, then she can just find another job, but I think this situation has gotten WAY hypothetical.

This "who pays the insurance premium argument" seems to acknowledge that the underlying health costs are real in both human & financial terms. Your only argument seems to center on how & wheather these costs are passed along. While this may be important for the bottomline of an individual firm, it's a terrible basis for public health policy.

For argument's sake, I accepted Baby Einstein's assertion that there were health benefits to mothers that breastfeed. I honestly have no idea if this is true or not. Baby Einstein's argument was that allowing people to breastfeed/pump at work would have a measurable economic effect in the form of reduced costs for employers to provide [group] health insurance to their employees, which is ridiculous.

Public health policy? We are talking about private businesses here! Here's a reality check for you, corporations generally act in such a way as to minimize their expenses and maximize their profits. How does public health have anything to do with this argument? Oh, you think that non-breastfeeding moms are a public health crisis? Give me an f'ing break!

Your final quote seems to completely contridict your earlier post. You claim that employers shouldn't be required to provide private areas for mother's to pump breast milk, (I'm not sure of your reasons) but than claim my wife's employer obviously "really" does provide such private places.

I don't believe that I used the word "provide" in my latter post. Once again, I was responding to Baby Einstein, who said that it would seem like an empty cubicle, etc would be a reasonable place for someone to use to pump. Surely there is an empty cubicle at your wife's place of employment, no? The presence of an empty cubicle does not constitute the employer "providing" a place for mothers to pump.

I don't need reasons to justify my position. My position represents the status quo. Unless there is a legitimate reason to change the status quo, it shouldn't be changed. However, just for you, I'll go ahead with my justification: This is a free country. Employers are free to do pretty much whatever they want to do with THEIR physical plant. Your wife doesn't have a right to have a private place to pump at her place of employment anymore than I have a right to have a private place to practice my religion at my place of employment. Both are private matters that are none of your employer's business. What if your employer doesn't approve of breastfeeding/pumping or other ways in which you raise your child? You would laugh at such a situation because it is none of your employer's business. The converse is true, as well, your employer should not be required to provide facilities for your private business, either.
 
some idiot said:
Then she can just go home or to daycare to pump. No big deal, right? Oh, it's inconvenient? So sorry....LOTS of things are inconvenient. If her employer doesn't allow her to go home to do this, then she can just find another job,

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

5 stars for the most ignorant post in a thread certainly not short on ignorant posts.
 
jota_jota said:
For argument's sake, I accepted Baby Einstein's assertion that there were health benefits to mothers that breastfeed. I honestly have no idea if this is true or not.

Are you kidding? 3 words for you: evidence-based medicine.


Baby Einstein's argument was that allowing people to breastfeed/pump at work would have a measurable economic effect in the form of reduced costs for employers to provide [group] health insurance to their employees, which is ridiculous.

OK you don't buy the insurance thing. Fine. What about absenteeism? That surely can't help productivity. Here's one reference, among others. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10160049&dopt=Abstract


This is a free country. Employers are free to do pretty much whatever they want to do with THEIR physical plant.

A free country with laws. Breastfeeding laws (or at least recommendations) which were enacted for public health and that apply to private businesses as well. Just like non-smoking laws.
Here are the Florida statutes as an example.

"The Legislature recognizes a mother's responsibility to her job and to her child when she returns to work and acknowledges that a woman's choice to breastfeed benefits the family, society-at-large, and the employer…

The department shall develop written policies supporting breast-feeding practices for the workplace which address issues including:
- work schedule flexibility;
- scheduling breaks and work patterns to provide time for milk expression;
- provision of accessible locations allowing privacy;
- access nearby to a clean, safe water source and sink for washing hands and rinsing out any needed breastpumping equipment;
- and access to hygienic storage alternatives in the workplace for the mother's breastmilk."
 
Baby Einstein said:
OK you don't buy the insurance thing. Fine. What about absenteeism? That surely can't help productivity. Here's one reference, among others. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10160049&dopt=Abstract

Without even reading your link, I can answer this by saying, isn't it the EMPLOYER'S choice to decide which practices are better to improve productivity?

Perhaps breastfeeding/pumping is better for productivity, but why not let the employer make that choice? After all, it is THEIR COMPANY'S productivity that is in question here.

A free country with laws. Breastfeeding laws (or at least recommendations) which were enacted for public health and that apply to private businesses as well. Just like non-smoking laws.
Here are the Florida statutes as an example.

<Florida RECOMMENDATIONS, NOT STATUTES snipped>

Few states have laws requiring employers to accomodate breastfeeding/pumping moms. A quick search of the Internet (best I could do on short notice) turned up this page from the La Leche League (the most pro-breastfeeding organization out there):

http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/Bills7.html

As you can see, only 6 states (assume the IL bill is signed into law) require employers to accomodate breastfeeding/pumping mothers when they return to work. Sorry, but it's still the employer's choice in 88% of States (as it should be.)
 
Top