To go to SGU or not

[AspiringDO94]

Hey guys,

So I've been accepted to the SGU August 2016 class, I'm not sure whether I want to go down the Caribbean road or not because of the residency horror stories that I've heard. I have talked to several practicing Caribbean MDs and they have all said that I should do it and work really hard rather than waste a year trying again in N.A. I am a Canadian citizen but hoping to match in either Canada or US for EM, IM or FM (realistically.. I would prefer anesthesiology or general surgery but I doubt a Caribbean grad can get those matches). With the MD and DO merger coming up what are the odds of Caribbean students at SGU getting matches? I saw that SGU had over 800 matches last year (not sure what their class size actually was though so not sure how many didn't actually get a match).

My stats are a 3.3 cGPA and 3.2 sGPA (hoping to get a 4.0 GPA in my last semester right now bringing up my cGPA to about 3.35-3.40). My GPA has a strong upwards trend over the last two years as well, having a 4.00 average in 3 of the semesters and almost 4.00 in the other.) MCAT score was an unfortunate 494 but I am planning to write it again in July.

My ECs also include: shadowing an MD for over 100+ hours (I can get another MD to shadow as well if you guys think that will benefit me more), working at a pharmacy (helps with patient interactions, knowing drugs and uses, etc.), a mentorship group and non-profit organization at the university I am at, I am doing an undergraduate research thesis right now (over 500+ in my lab at this point), volunteered at science fairs previously and the hospital a few years back. Anything else I should focus on for my ECs to help give me the upper hand?

Should I take my chances again at North American schools (retake classes to improve GPA and hope for a higher MCAT score then try again for the upcoming cycle) or just take the SGU opportunity?

Keep in mind that I have a very close relative who is an extremely well known (world-wide) doctor (high speciality) and have very good relationships with several other primary care physicians. Would these doctors be able to pull any strings for me in terms of a residency position come 4 years down the road, preferably in Canada?

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[ThoracicGuy]

Hey guys,

So I've been accepted to the SGU August 2016 class, I'm not sure whether I want to go down the Caribbean road or not because of the residency horror stories that I've heard. I have talked to several practicing Caribbean MDs and they have all said that I should do it and work really hard rather than waste a year trying again in N.A. I am a Canadian citizen but hoping to match in either Canada or US for EM, IM or FM (realistically.. I would prefer anesthesiology or general surgery but I doubt a Caribbean grad can get those matches). With the MD and DO merger coming up what are the odds of Caribbean students at SGU getting matches? I saw that SGU had over 800 matches last year (not sure what their class size actually was though so not sure how many didn't actually get a match).

My stats are a 3.3 cGPA and 3.2 sGPA (hoping to get a 4.0 GPA in my last semester right now bringing up my cGPA to about 3.35-3.40). My GPA has a strong upwards trend over the last two years as well, having a 4.00 average in 3 of the semesters and almost 4.00 in the other.) MCAT score was an unfortunate 494 but I am planning to write it again in July.

My ECs also include: shadowing an MD for over 100+ hours (I can get another MD to shadow as well if you guys think that will benefit me more), working at a pharmacy (helps with patient interactions, knowing drugs and uses, etc.), a mentorship group and non-profit organization at the university I am at, I am doing an undergraduate research thesis right now (over 500+ in my lab at this point), volunteered at science fairs previously and the hospital a few years back. Anything else I should focus on for my ECs to help give me the upper hand?

Should I take my chances again at North American schools (retake classes to improve GPA and hope for a higher MCAT score then try again for the upcoming cycle) or just take the SGU opportunity?

Keep in mind that I have a very close relative who is an extremely well known (world-wide) doctor (high speciality) and have very good relationships with several other primary care physicians. Would these doctors be able to pull any strings for me in terms of a residency position come 4 years down the road, preferably in Canada?

You need to do everything you can to get yourself the best application possible for a US/Canadian MD or DO school. Should you retake classes? For US MD schools they tend to just average those grades in with your bad ones. DO schools replace your grade making it much easier to bump that GPA up. Your MCAT needs alot of work as well. You need to spend some time making sure you are prepared. If you aren't ready by July, then don't take it. While Canadian schools don't seem to care how often you take the MCAT, US schools definitely do.

If you go to SGU, you will have a much harder time matching in Canada and a hard time matching in the US, particularly if you don't want IM/FM/Psych.

So, basically, improve your app even if it takes a couple or three years to do and then apply. It'll give you far more chances and choices to do what you want to do instead of SGU or other Caribbean schools. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[deleted731525]

Gas is doable from SGU, probably more doable than EM. IM//FM/Psych are the most likely though. As for what you should do, it is really only something you can answer. Personally I would not feel comfortable entering a 2 year war of attrition(once you make it to clinical years chances are good that you will graduate) with a sub 500 MCAT. While the first time the match rates are lower than US schools they are still relatively high compared to most other graduate/professionl programs, the main obstacle that schools like SGU have is attrition.

 

[UBC2014]

What went wrong with the MCAT? Did something happen on the day off, or is that reflective of your performance?

I would not go to SGU with a 494(24th percentile). You'd get destroyed and lose 30k in the process.

The only time I recommend foreign schools is for Canadians who are in the competitive range for Canadian/US med schools but just keep getting unlucky or have poor non-academic profiles that would keep them out of those schools. You are not this candidate based on the stats you've provided, and at a huge risk of wasting a lot of money and getting kicked out after term 1. Or worse, working our ass off, making it to 2nd year but then bombing Step 1 because you're a poor standardized test taker. I'm not saying this is you, but this is what i'm inferring based off of what you have provided.

Prove to yourself you can do well and retake the MCAT. If you can't get at least average on the MCAT...you should not be going abroad. Especially not to carribean where they use attrition to get the weak students out.


So plan of action:

1. Retake the MCAT and do much better
2. Keep improving your grades and ECs.
3. Apply to whatever Canadian schools you're eligible for with a decent chance(QUeens or UWO maybe since you have recent 4.0s? but MCAT is a barrier thus far).
4. Focus your application on USDO programs. USMD is pretty much out of the option with such a low score on attempt 1, unless you absolutely blow it out of the park on attempt 2. And your ECs are fairly thin from what you've presented here, so i dont see anything really bringing up the rest of your app. Unless your research sparks the interest...but yeah you can apply if you have the money to blow for that small chance - it has happened before that people get in, so you never know.
5. Do not go to SGU this summer.

 

[AspiringDO94]

You need to do everything you can to get yourself the best application possible for a US/Canadian MD or DO school. Should you retake classes? For US MD schools they tend to just average those grades in with your bad ones. DO schools replace your grade making it much easier to bump that GPA up. Your MCAT needs alot of work as well. You need to spend some time making sure you are prepared. If you aren't ready by July, then don't take it. While Canadian schools don't seem to care how often you take the MCAT, US schools definitely do.

If you go to SGU, you will have a much harder time matching in Canada and a hard time matching in the US, particularly if you don't want IM/FM/Psych.

So, basically, improve your app even if it takes a couple or three years to do and then apply. It'll give you far more chances and choices to do what you want to do instead of SGU or other Caribbean schools. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

I am hoping to get into a DO school (based on personal preference and my stats aren't as good for an MD school anyways). I am debating whether to retake classes (I only have two marks that are C and C+ but most of my grades are B and higher so I'm not sure if I should retake anything or just take new classes to help improve my GPA that way) or a Master's in Biochem (one year course based with a little research project) or try to do an SMP in the States.

How bad does it look if I take my MCAT twice or even three times? If I do good on the final time but not as good on the previous times, but have academics and ECs that are good, will those previous MCAT scores hurt me that much?

Gas is doable from SGU, probably more doable than EM. IM//FM/Psych are the most likely though. As for what you should do, it is really only something you can answer. Personally I would not feel comfortable entering a 2 year war of attrition(once you make it to clinical years chances are good that you will graduate) with a sub 500 MCAT. While the first time the match rates are lower than US schools they are still relatively high compared to most other graduate/professionl programs, the main obstacle that schools like SGU have is attrition.

I do not mind going into IM/FM/Psych, and I understand that is typically what IMGs end up getting residency-wise. Do you recommend not going to SGU then and improve my application and trying again for the next cycle (2016-2017) after taking my MCAT in July (hopefully).

Also out of curiosity, why is gas a more viable match compared to EM? Is it not a competitive speciality?

What went wrong with the MCAT? Did something happen on the day off, or is that reflective of your performance?

I would not go to SGU with a 494(24th percentile). You'd get destroyed and lose 30k in the process.

The only time I recommend foreign schools is for Canadians who are in the competitive range for Canadian/US med schools but just keep getting unlucky or have poor non-academic profiles that would keep them out of those schools. You are not this candidate based on the stats you've provided, and at a huge risk of wasting a lot of money and getting kicked out after term 1. Or worse, working our ass off, making it to 2nd year but then bombing Step 1 because you're a poor standardized test taker. I'm not saying this is you, but this is what i'm inferring based off of what you have provided.

Prove to yourself you can do well and retake the MCAT. If you can't get at least average on the MCAT...you should not be going abroad. Especially not to carribean where they use attrition to get the weak students out.


So plan of action:

1. Retake the MCAT and do much better
2. Keep improving your grades and ECs.
3. Apply to whatever Canadian schools you're eligible for with a decent chance(QUeens or UWO maybe since you have recent 4.0s? but MCAT is a barrier thus far).
4. Focus your application on USDO programs. USMD is pretty much out of the option with such a low score on attempt 1, unless you absolutely blow it out of the park on attempt 2. And your ECs are fairly thin from what you've presented here, so i dont see anything really bringing up the rest of your app. Unless your research sparks the interest...but yeah you can apply if you have the money to blow for that small chance - it has happened before that people get in, so you never know.
5. Do not go to SGU this summer.

My MCAT had a lot of things that could have affected my scoring. First off I took a prep course from May to July and a week after the course I took my real MCAT, the course was a TPR one and was heavy on doing homework passages and readings, which was helpful but at the same time I was taking this course I was working two jobs. Whenever the TPR scheduling had us taking a practice exam, I was never able to do it that day so I would end up not doing it or splitting up between two days (however work permitted) which didn't really give me the testing feel. I feel like when I wrote my MCAT I was rushing to finish it and enjoy the rest of my summer rather than taking my time and getting a higher score. As well, the night before I was extremely nervous and did not get a good night sleep either and had to cross the border the night before to write it. I just did not feel comfortable personally.

This time for the MCAT I intend to study at my university library everyday, for around 10-12 hours a day, for two months before the MCAT. I am reading the Kaplan MCAT prep books and my old TPR ones as well so that way I can ensure I have covered all my material. I am planning to purchase the AAMC section banks and sample tests, as well as use my friend's TPR account to take their practice tests as well. I feel like my plan for this MCAT is much better than when I first took it. As well, last time I took it I took the course and MCAT with a few friends, constantly comparing myself to their scores which really did not give me any confidence when I took any practice tests or the real test.

I am an extremely hardworking student, over the last two years I have really buckled down more and have been able to get the marks to prove this. My second year marks are what bring down my GPA (this was an extremely hard year in my program and I had personal family issues going on at the same time - not sure if the admission committees really cared about this so I never actually mentioned it in my applications). I work 17-20 hours a week, keep up with all my school work and research, so I know that I can handle the workload that comes with medical school especially since I would not be working or doing research at that time.

What are things that I can do to help improve my ECs and volunteering so I can stand out more for my next application as well?

I appreciate everyones help and will definitely take everything into consideration. I am just looking for advice on SGU, as well as DO schools. I feel like if I got an MCAT score that was 505 or higher, and with my current semester GPA bringing up my cGPA/sGPA, then I would have a good shot for DO schools next round so I don't want to give up and go to SGU right away and end up not doing well on my boards or not matching into any speciality.

 

[UBC2014]

I responded to your PM. USDO or bust. Aim for higher than a 505.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I am hoping to get into a DO school (based on personal preference and my stats aren't as good for an MD school anyways). I am debating whether to retake classes (I only have two marks that are C and C+ but most of my grades are B and higher so I'm not sure if I should retake anything or just take new classes to help improve my GPA that way) or a Master's in Biochem (one year course based with a little research project) or try to do an SMP in the States.

How bad does it look if I take my MCAT twice or even three times? If I do good on the final time but not as good on the previous times, but have academics and ECs that are good, will those previous MCAT scores hurt me that much?

For US schools, the more you repeat the MCAT, the worse it is. For Canadian schools, I understand that they look at just the most recent. If you want to have a chance at US schools, you need to take the time to make sure you have the solid foundation for the MCAT to do as good as you can on the next test. If you aren't getting 508-510+ consistently on practice exams, you probably shouldn't take it.

 

[AspiringDO94]

For US schools, the more you repeat the MCAT, the worse it is. For Canadian schools, I understand that they look at just the most recent. If you want to have a chance at US schools, you need to take the time to make sure you have the solid foundation for the MCAT to do as good as you can on the next test. If you aren't getting 508-510+ consistently on practice exams, you probably shouldn't take it.

Thanks for the tips, I am mostly applying to American DO schools with a about 2-3 Canadian ones and a few USMD ones as well so I will definitely make sure to push my MCAT back if I am not getting high scores like that. Are there are MCAT practice tests that you would recommend other than the new AAMC ones? How good would it be to redo the old MCAT tests, I know the sections are changed but would the material be good practice or a waste of money/time?

 

[Sardinia]

Thanks for the tips, I am mostly applying to American DO schools with a about 2-3 Canadian ones and a few USMD ones as well so I will definitely make sure to push my MCAT back if I am not getting high scores like that. Are there are MCAT practice tests that you would recommend other than the new AAMC ones? How good would it be to redo the old MCAT tests, I know the sections are changed but would the material be good practice or a waste of money/time?

Check the MCAT thread. Look in the January thread for feedback. They get their scores out tomorrow and are the best cohort to probably look at for an indication on the April and May exam. If you need a direct link message me. TPR/Kaplan gets you only so far, I would take a look at the AMCAS section bank on e-mcat which a lot of students felt had a good correlation on the material. Other people think that their problem was not reading enough science journal articles.

 

[cassis_Cake]

I also recommend you to try and get a higher mcat score. I don't know how long it's been since you've graduated undergrad but there's no need to rush into Caribbean yet, especially if you haven't exhausted other options such as D.O.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

I don't know if SGU has a program like Ross. The MERP is what I am referring to. They basically prep you for med school for a semester. This is worth looking into. If you get a 4.0 in your last semseter you will not be competitive for domestic schools. SGU is a great school if you can afford it but its soooo expensive. Ross has almost identical match rates for 10k less per semester. Remember you are paying USD. Depending on your age I would just apply. If you are older its worth it if time is a major factor and you don't want to go through 3-4 more years of undergrad. If you are younger stay domestically. Assuming you wanna stay in Canada DO schools aren't an option so its not worth looking as they aren't recognized here. Worst case (assuming you pass through and match) you end up in the states and do an equivalent residency length and go back to Canada later on.

I would go to SGU if the price difference wasn't that great. I am looking at a different school just because there match rates were equivalent and price wise it makes sense. Like even if you get a 4.0 yes your GPA is trending upwards but you look at the mean and median GPA's that get into all schools and you are looking at 3.84 on average even when looking at schools like Manitoba and NOSM its a 3.8. In fact out of province you need to have a minimum of 3.7 on average to apply to most schools or they won't even look at you. If you are in province in Alberta 3.3 is the minimum but again meeting the minimum requirements doesn't make you competitive.

If being a doc is really important go and do it and don't look back and don't listen to the haters. You will have to work harder but it won't matter if you reach your ultimate goal. HOWEVER it is a gamble. To be competitive domestically you will need to upgrade you GPA and for some schools you will need to complete a full second degree or they won't count the grades. Some don't even count your masters, meaning only undergrad classes It is worth it though, but something to keep in mind. By the way UBC is changing their requirements for science courses. You no longer need sciences courses assuming you show adequate proficiency on the equivalent section of the MCAT. Again though this is if your GPA is stellar. I know people with much better GPAs then you and still got rejected from Canadian schools. As for the US same thing I know people who had a hard time because some US schools require you to have certain classes so getting them to transfer certain grades for you will be tough. I am not telling you not to do this. In fact "domestic" is the way to go 10/10 times. I am just bringing up factors that you need to consider.

As always Canadian first, US second, international last.

Ireland is another option but you don't have the option of doing clinical rotations in the US. I personally like the option to practice in the US. I will say it is important to explore domestic options first. Consider a DO if never returning home is ok with you but still need to upgrade as I pointed out, but don't waste too many resources if you aren't going to be successful with that route.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I don't know if SGU has a program like Ross. The MERP is what I am referring to. They basically prep you for med school for a semester. This is worth looking into. If you get a 4.0 in your last semseter you will not be competitive for domestic schools. SGU is a great school if you can afford it but its soooo expensive. Ross has almost identical match rates for 10k less per semester. Remember you are paying USD. Depending on your age I would just apply. If you are older its worth it if time is a major factor and you don't want to go through 3-4 more years of undergrad. If you are younger stay domestically. Assuming you wanna stay in Canada DO schools aren't an option so its not worth looking as they aren't recognized here. Worst case (assuming you pass through and match) you end up in the states and do an equivalent residency length and go back to Canada later on.

I would go to SGU if the price difference wasn't that great. I am looking at a different school just because there match rates were equivalent and price wise it makes sense. Like even if you get a 4.0 yes your GPA is trending upwards but you look at the mean and median GPA's that get into all schools and you are looking at 3.84 on average even when looking at schools like Manitoba and NOSM its a 3.8. In fact out of province you need to have a minimum of 3.7 on average to apply to most schools or they won't even look at you. If you are in province in Alberta 3.3 is the minimum but again meeting the minimum requirements doesn't make you competitive.

If being a doc is really important go and do it and don't look back and don't listen to the haters. You will have to work harder but it won't matter if you reach your ultimate goal. HOWEVER it is a gamble. To be competitive domestically you will need to upgrade you GPA and for some schools you will need to complete a full second degree or they won't count the grades. Some don't even count your masters, meaning only undergrad classes It is worth it though, but something to keep in mind. By the way UBC is changing their requirements for science courses. You no longer need sciences courses assuming you show adequate proficiency on the equivalent section of the MCAT. Again though this is if your GPA is stellar. I know people with much better GPAs then you and still got rejected from Canadian schools. As for the US same thing I know people who had a hard time because some US schools require you to have certain classes so getting them to transfer certain grades for you will be tough. I am not telling you not to do this. In fact "domestic" is the way to go 10/10 times. I am just bringing up factors that you need to consider.

As always Canadian first, US second, domestic last.

Ireland is another option but you don't have the option of practicing in the US. I personally like the option to practice in the US. I will say it is important to explore domestic options first. Consider a DO if never returning home is ok with you but still need to upgrade as I pointed out, but don't waste too many resources if you aren't going to be successful with that route.

This post is full of misinformation. Let's try and parse this out.

I don't know if SGU has a program like Ross. The MERP is what I am referring to. They basically prep you for med school for a semester. This is worth looking into. If you get a 4.0 in your last semseter you will not be competitive for domestic schools. SGU is a great school if you can afford it but its soooo expensive. Ross has almost identical match rates for 10k less per semester. Remember you are paying USD.

These programs are just another way to get more money out of you. As for the match rates, you don't know how many people that start with you will end up finishing in four years (or five or six) and how many get lost to attrition (failing out, quitting, etc). Rough estimates put somewhere in the range of 25-50% attrition depending on the school. Then you have to look at your chances of matching, which are lower from the Caribbean - both in the US and Canadian matches.

Depending on your age I would just apply. If you are older its worth it if time is a major factor and you don't want to go through 3-4 more years of undergrad. If you are younger stay domestically.

This is a marathon, not a sprint. Many people feel that being 24-25 is too old and they just need to go RIGHT NOW!!!!! Well, no, that's not too old to fix your application and do everything you can to get into a Canadian or US school. You think you'll save 2-3 years, but if you instead went straight to the Caribbean, maybe it takes you 5 years to get through. Well, what if you don't match, you've added another year or two to your wait to residency - and all the while your loans are accumulating.

Assuming you wanna stay in Canada DO schools aren't an option so its not worth looking as they aren't recognized here. Worst case (assuming you pass through and match) you end up in the states and do an equivalent residency length and go back to Canada later on.

DO degrees are recognized in most Canadian provinces, only PEI and Saskatchewan don't recognize it or limit your practice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_Canada

If being a doc is really important go and do it and don't look back and don't listen to the haters.

People that are talking about the risks of the Caribbean are not "haters". We see the real risks involved. We see the sob stories that people tell on these forums of all the debt they have and nothing to show for it. Counseling people to make better decisions for themselves is not hating, it's helping.

To be competitive domestically you will need to upgrade you GPA and for some schools you will need to complete a full second degree or they won't count the grades. Some don't even count your masters, meaning only undergrad classes

For US DO schools, you don't have to complete a full second degree for grades to be counted. Yes, masters grades don't really count for much because they are almost always subjected to significant grade inflation.

Ireland is another option but you don't have the option of practicing in the US. I personally like the option to practice in the US. I will say it is important to explore domestic options first. Consider a DO if never returning home is ok with you but still need to upgrade as I pointed out, but don't waste too many resources if you aren't going to be successful with that route.

Irish graduates have no option of practicing in the US? Since when? They are considered in the same overall group as Caribbean grads, UK, Australian, Chinese, wherever grads. As long as you get ECFMG certification, you can apply for the US residency match. Now with Ireland, you do have the same sort of risks that you get from the Caribbean, plus you don't usually get US clinical experience.

So I stand by my prior post and encourage the OP to look into DO schools before looking at any foreign schools. My order of preference for applying as a Canadian would be: Canadian -> US MD -> US DO -> International schools that allow you to be licensed in all 50 US States and preferably Canada too.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

This post is full of misinformation. Let's try and parse this out.



These programs are just another way to get more money out of you. As for the match rates, you don't know how many people that start with you will end up finishing in four years (or five or six) and how many get lost to attrition (failing out, quitting, etc). Rough estimates put somewhere in the range of 25-50% attrition depending on the school. Then you have to look at your chances of matching, which are lower from the Caribbean - both in the US and Canadian matches.



This is a marathon, not a sprint. Many people feel that being 24-25 is too old and they just need to go RIGHT NOW!!!!! Well, no, that's not too old to fix your application and do everything you can to get into a Canadian or US school. You think you'll save 2-3 years, but if you instead went straight to the Caribbean, maybe it takes you 5 years to get through. Well, what if you don't match, you've added another year or two to your wait to residency - and all the while your loans are accumulating.



DO degrees are recognized in most Canadian provinces, only PEI and Saskatchewan don't recognize it or limit your practice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_Canada



People that are talking about the risks of the Caribbean are not "haters". We see the real risks involved. We see the sob stories that people tell on these forums of all the debt they have and nothing to show for it. Counseling people to make better decisions for themselves is not hating, it's helping.



For US DO schools, you don't have to complete a full second degree for grades to be counted. Yes, masters grades don't really count for much because they are almost always subjected to significant grade inflation.



Irish graduates have no option of practicing in the US? Since when? They are considered in the same overall group as Caribbean grads, UK, Australian, Chinese, wherever grads. As long as you get ECFMG certification, you can apply for the US residency match. Now with Ireland, you do have the same sort of risks that you get from the Caribbean, plus you don't usually get US clinical experience.


So I stand by my prior post and encourage the OP to look into DO schools before looking at any foreign schools. My order of preference for applying as a Canadian would be: Canadian -> US MD -> US DO -> International schools that allow you to be licensed in all 50 US States and preferably Canada too.

You didn't read my post.

First of all I know people at both schools. The attrition rate you quoted is closer to 10%. Yes 10% is still large but it isn't 20-50 % you only see those rates at places like Windsor. Out of those who make it you see 85-88% match rates. Maybe not matching into top specialties of everyone's choice but again I said if you want to be a doctor PERIOD then this is an option. NOT YOUR BEST OPTION but an OPTION.


These programs are for profit but they aren't set up to fail you. You need to figure out what didn't work out in undergrad FIRST before even applying to medicine. I didn't say they don't have an option of practicing in the US, but rather I said that not all schools have the option of doing CLINICAL ROTATIONS in the US, which means its harder to get letters of recommendation. Additionally they aren't training you to take your STEP 1 they train you to take the UK equivalent. You can take your step 1 and 2, but it is important to note. I do know people personally who went to Ireland and are now doing general surgery in New York.


I may be wrong about DO and if I am so be it. It still is hard to place back into Canada because of the limited opportunities and if you are taking out several provinces especially the easier ones to match in then I PERSONALLY don't think its worth it, however that is my personal opinion.




I wasn't saying all people who say don't go to the Caribbean are haters, but rather anyone who just says GIVE UP on doing medicine without honestly thinking about what a person really wants. It had nothing to do with Caribbean but rather career options. At the end of the day it really is important to consider all your options if this is your goal. This may be this persons best or only option given their individual circumstance. For many other people it may not be.


My order of preference is the same as yours except I want to have the option of practicing in certain provinces. Like I said if that isn't a problem then you are absolutely correct and my first post remains solid. Canada - US - Caribbean. In fact I purposefully stated I did not want to get into a DO discussion.

Obviously 25 is not too old to do an undergrad again. If the poster is closer to 30 the story is different and I stated that as well. I made one mistake not A TON of misinformation. Like I said this is a cost benefit analysis type thing. I think its important to really think about it. It is an option. The schools themselves don't lie to you. They even say if you can get into a domestic school then the Caribbean option isn't for you.

You are correct it is a marathon not a sprint. It is very important to choose a pace that makes sense for your circumstances. I have always advocated for going domestically. Heck if I was a US citizen I would go without a doubt. In Canada your chances of getting into med school stand at around 8% vs approximately 40% in the US.

So to finish of this post like I said no matter what the poster needs to upgrade their grades to have the option of attending US/Cdn schools directly. US is a better chance but grades still need to be upgraded.


EDIT*

I forgot to add some of these attrition rates at the top 2 schools especially come from peopel going down to the Caribbean and saying WHAT DID I GET MYSELF INTO. You are isolated on an island in a developing nation and if you aren't prepared for that or this is your first way away from home then you could be in trouble.

I think there is a profile for a student that should go and take these international options. Someone who is capable but just for what ever reason really couldn't make it in after trying.

 

[UBC2014]

Hopefulcanadian is completely WRONG about USDO schools and canadians.

I am a Canadian. I know many Canadians at USDO programs who have done well. It is a MUCH better path than the carribean. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not have their facts right. I know multiple people who matched back in Canada for training(same odds as a carribean grad derp. Except in BC where USDOs are treated as CMGs!) And rest in the US -at much better programs/ way more interviews than my SGU peers. In fact I know 2 Canadians who transferred out of SGU and restarted at USDO programs once they realized it was an option.

Many Canadians simply didn't hear about USDO or were too bloody ignorant to do the research about it when they did hear about it and decided to be immature and go to the carrib. Or simply couldn't get into a USDO program. Or lastly want an "MD" because of their unfounded pride(hah especially funny because it's the carribean) over a "lowly DO".

Once you do your residency in the US as a DO, you have no different of a path than a carribean/Irish/IMG grad at getting licensed back in Canada. Save for the fact that as a US based medical student USDO/USMD can use Opti-f1 visa for the if PGY1 residency year and get H1b visa much easier that way without stress of doing step 3 earlier. Huge perk. And can use that as backup if they need to reapply for a health Canada SON for j1 a second time but still continue with residency. An IMG can't do that, as they dont have access to the f1-opti visa.

Please do not spread b.s. misinformation

Just as a disclaimer I attend a MD school, in case you want to call me a USDo fanboy or something. It is a excellent option and way safer than the carribean.

 

[UBC2014]

Additionally, while Wikipedia says SK and PEI are off limits for fullscope, I just confirmed that DOs do have full scope in SK now. It was a situation where no DO ever actually wanted to go to SK, so they said "well update our guidelines when someone actually comes and wants to be here" situation. Simply wasn't a reason in the past for those legislators to do more work lol.

I suspect it may be the same in PEI. Given the need and the fact that PEI bends the rules for FMGs all the time, I see no reason they wouldn't take a Canadian with US education who wanted to setup shop.

Just wanted to add those points for completeness. Even though it makes zero difference in somehow matching back to canada. Personal preference but I'd choose a solid US program over rural SK anyday....

 

[UBC2014]

Tldr: hopefulcanadians post was full of many mistakes and misconceptions, that you shouldn't bother reading it. To say USDOs can't return to Canada and Irish grads can't go to the US...are too such obvious big picture mistakes, that I worry they'd have no clue when it came down to finer details and minutae.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

If my information about DO schools was wrong...which is stated in my last post then I stand corrected. With that being said it appears as though no one is actually reading the full content of my post and just picking small things here and there primarily focused on DO. The question was should the OP go to SGU. I stated domestic options are always better than international. With that being said I said its an option. No need to bash it. As I said it isn't an option for everyone. It shouldn't even be your first or second option. Some people need this option and do it and are successful. You need to do your research though. I know people who went to Ireland and have returned. As do you.

Calling it an immature option isn't correct. It is an option. It may not be the posters best option. DO may be that strong option for the OP. My point is I have heard of people who have spent a fortune both on time and money trying to get into med school without any success.


Also I never called anyone a DO fanboy. I have nothing against DOs. I don't know why anyone would call you that but sure.

 

[UBC2014]

If my information about DO schools was wrong...which is stated in my last post then I stand corrected. With that being said it appears as though no one is actually reading the full content of my post and just picking small things here and there primarily focused on DO. The question was should the OP go to SGU. I stated domestic options are always better than international. With that being said I said its an option. No need to bash it. As I said it isn't an option for everyone. It shouldn't even be your first or second option. Some people need this option and do it and are successful. You need to do your research though. I know people who went to Ireland and have returned. As do you.

Calling it an immature option isn't correct. It is an option. It may not be the posters best option. DO may be that strong option for the OP. My point is I have heard of people who have spent a fortune both on time and money trying to get into med school without any success.


Also I never called anyone a DO fanboy. I have nothing against DOs. I don't know why anyone would call you that but sure.

Umm...I do not have to do research, I know.

You initially said in your posts that Practicing in the US is not an option if you go to Ireland...which is blatently.wrong and what I was correcting. Reading comprehension issues much?

All I was doing was pointing out your false statements that you were using as support for your rationale. Nothing more, nothing less.

And the fanboy comment was just preemptive, since its SDN and people tend to be all jumpy when having discourse hah.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Tldr: hopefulcanadians post was full of many mistakes and misconceptions, that you shouldn't bother reading it. To say USDOs can't return to Canada and Irish grads can't go to the US...are too such obvious big picture mistakes, that I worry they'd have no clue when it came down to finer details and minutae.

Last post for this thread from me. I never said Irish grads can't return to the US. I said some schools prohibit you from doing CLINICAL ROTATIONS outside of Ireland. Meaning LOR are hard to obtain. Not every school is like this but some are. The point I was conveying was if you are going to do international you really have to think about where you might get stuck and what you are ok with. Not saying GO FOR INTERNATIONAL OVER USDO.

You are obviously a medical student so you obviously know what clinical rotations are. Meaning you know or should know exactly what I am talking about. As for the USDO point that you and the other poster made a comment on. I already stated I didn't know about the DO option, however in my original post I said it was a valid option to consider BEFORE the Caribbean. The OP has already stated they have applied to DO schools. and their grades put them in a competitive position for DO schools, but not for MD schools. I said to focus on the MCAT, which is the gatekeeper, which is true. So what are all these lies that I am spreading.

I am not a Caribbean fanboy so don't call me that. I am just saying it is an option. A hard option, but an option.

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Umm...I do not have to do research, I know.

You initially said in your posts that Practicing in the US is not an option if you go to Ireland...which is blatently.wrong and what I was correcting. Reading comprehension issues much?

All I was doing was pointing out your false statements that you were using as support for your rationale. Nothing more, nothing less.

And the fanboy comment was just preemptive, since its SDN and people tend to be all jumpy when having discourse hah.

If I said practicing it was a typo. I fixed it. I was posting this from work. I write and then don't finish then come back and try to retain my train of thought. it has been fixed

And yes haha. People do tend to be jumpy in this forum. I am honestly considering not posting in this forum anymore for that reason.

 

[UBC2014]

If I said practicing it was a typo.

And yes haha. People do tend to be jumpy in this forum. I am honestly considering not posting in this forum anymore for that reason.

Clearly you made a lot of typos then. In lieu of the word practicing, what did you mean?

Backpeddle, backpeddle backpeddle...

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Clearly you made a lot of typos then. In lieu of the word practicing, what did you mean?

Backpeddle, backpeddle backpeddle...

I meant clinical rotations.

 

[UBC2014]

I meant clinical rotations.

Definitely less amount of time doing clinical rotations compared to US grads and carribeans....but definitely not outright not being able to do US electives.

Because if you say thats true,(which its not), then i'd point to be old roommate who's a irish med student and did electives at UPenn...and in about 1 month at match day will probably match their too. And then he would point to the rest of his class who wanted to match in the US and did their electives in the US. It is definitely harder task because you have to schedule things on your own, but some schools have affiliations set up and cover the elective fees etc. But not impossible like you have said.

Again, false information mate.

I'm not even sure why you would even think that, basic logic. If Carribean schools can set up affiliations by throwing money at things - then Irish schools can do the same(but to a lesser extent...cause well, they don't have to.).

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Definitely less amount of time doing clinical rotations compared to US grads and carribeans....but definitely not outright not being able to do US electives.

Because if you say thats true,(which its not), then i'd point to be old roommate who's a irish med student and did electives at UPenn...and in about 1 month at match day will probably match their too. And then he would point to the rest of his class who wanted to match in the US and did their electives in the US. It is definitely harder task because you have to schedule things on your own, but some schools have affiliations set up and cover the elective fees etc. But not impossible like you have said.

Again, false information mate.

I'm not even sure why you would even think that, basic logic. If Carribean schools can set up affiliations by throwing money at things - then Irish schools can do the same(but to a lesser extent...cause well, they don't have to.).

Not False information. I said depending on the school. I know people who matched from ireland (4 in fact) 2 were able to do electives here. 2 were not. They went to different schools. So like I said depending on the school you may not have the option. Even if Irish schools can do the same doesn't mean they do so as you admitted. Additionally, my suggestion to do a Caribbean over an Irish school is almost soley based on this point. You also have to be honest and admit you don't read my whole posts. You pick out one point and then go APE all over it calling me a liar and trying to make me look bad. You, while smug, forgot to point out the fact that Irish schools don't train you to take the USMLE. You can take it YES and I stated that now 3 times, however the school doesn't directly train you to take those tests specifically. In fact they train you to take the equivalent Irish/UK or whatever test.

So to recap since you don't bother to read:
-SOME Irish schools don't allow you to do clinical rotations in the US.
-While this doesn't prohibit you from applying it makes getting letters of recommendation more difficult.
-

 

[DoctorS84]

Hey guys, just wanted to chime in here about the USDO programs. It was a great option for Canadians in the past to gain residency back home as UBC2014 pointed out that USDOs are considered CMGs and are slotted into the 1st round of Matching.

However that is no longer the case. USDO graduates are now considered IMGs like the rest of FMGs and slotted to the 2nd round. That was their BIGGEST advantage by far to do a USDO program as a Canadian Citizen/PR and wanting to return home. Now your best bet as a Canadian if you are doing a USDO program, is to get residency in the states and come back to Canada fully-licensed, which isn't as easy, as you'll have some visas to work out.

Source:

http://studentdo.ca/drupal_beta/returning

http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-1/eligibility-criteria/first-iteration/

 

[HopefulCanadian]

Hey guys, just wanted to chime in here about the USDO programs. It was a great option for Canadians in the past to gain residency back home as UBC2014 pointed out that USDOs are considered CMGs and are slotted into the 1st round of Matching.

However that is no longer the case. USDO graduates are now considered IMGs like the rest of FMGs and slotted to the 2nd round. That was their BIGGEST advantage by far to do a USDO program as a Canadian Citizen/PR and wanting to return home. Now your best bet as a Canadian if you are doing a USDO program, is to get residency in the states and come back to Canada fully-licensed, which isn't as easy, as you'll have some visas to work out.

Source:

http://studentdo.ca/drupal_beta/returning

http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-1/eligibility-criteria/first-iteration/

Thank you for the clarification

 

[DoctorS84]

Hey guys,

Just a furthur clarification on the USDO situation for CaRMS. Looks like I simplified it a bit.

It seems only in BC alone, they are still eligible for 1st round of matching, but that is the only province. I doubt this will last much longer, as BC will eventually catch up to the rest of the country re: the 1st round for DOs.

Also it seems DO programs are not eligible for CaRMS at all in quite a few provinces: Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan.

For Alberta, they are ONLY eligible once they have been assessed by the Alberta International Medical Graduate Program (AIMG).

It seems DOs don't get an easy ride back to Canada anymore.

Source: http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-...ntake-criteria-osteropathic-school-graduates/

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Hey guys, just wanted to chime in here about the USDO programs. It was a great option for Canadians in the past to gain residency back home as UBC2014 pointed out that USDOs are considered CMGs and are slotted into the 1st round of Matching.

However that is no longer the case. USDO graduates are now considered IMGs like the rest of FMGs and slotted to the 2nd round. That was their BIGGEST advantage by far to do a USDO program as a Canadian Citizen/PR and wanting to return home. Now your best bet as a Canadian if you are doing a USDO program, is to get residency in the states and come back to Canada fully-licensed, which isn't as easy, as you'll have some visas to work out.

Source:

http://studentdo.ca/drupal_beta/returning

http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-1/eligibility-criteria/first-iteration/

Based on your source, this isn't entirely true.

See:

http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-1/eligibility-criteria/provincial-criteria/

http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-...ntake-criteria-osteropathic-school-graduates/

Eligible: Quebec, British Columbia, Manitoba
Eligible, IMG designated position: Alberta, Ontario
Not Eligible: Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan

 

[UBC2014]

Hey guys,

Just a furthur clarification on the USDO situation for CaRMS. Looks like I simplified it a bit.

It seems only in BC alone, they are still eligible for 1st round of matching, but that is the only province. I doubt this will last much longer, as BC will eventually catch up to the rest of the country re: the 1st round for DOs.

Also it seems DO programs are not eligible for CaRMS at all in quite a few provinces: Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan.

For Alberta, they are ONLY eligible once they have been assessed by the Alberta International Medical Graduate Program (AIMG).

It seems DOs don't get an easy ride back to Canada anymore.

Source: http://www.carms.ca/en/residency/r-...ntake-criteria-osteropathic-school-graduates/

The whole point of USDO is that you have WAY WAY WAY BETTER OPTIONS than other IMGs for residency in the US.

Yes you still have more or less the same options in Canada with respect to CaRMS as other IMGs with the new changes, but regardless doing Residency in the US is always the main focus once you leave Canada.

 

[UBC2014]

As for returning back home after being fully-licensed in the US, its slightly easier of a pathway as a USDO versus other IMGs who need a visa, because attending a USMD or USDO school grants you the f1-opti visa. So if you're a solid student, you can use that for your PGY1 year and then go for H1B pathway. Effectively eliminating the need to follow Health Canada's Statement Of Need restrictions re: J1 visa. Otherwise you do J1 like the rest of the IMGs and follow the quotas etc. But you have the F1-opti as a fall back in case something gets messed up with that process. Huge factor.

The rest of the factors of simply getting more residency and better options as a AMG versus other IMGs, its a no brainer to attend a US based school if you have the credentials.

 

[PERSISTtill the end]

Hello to all the commenters here,
Thanks for all your feedback and responses!
I am in the same boat as @AspiringDO94,

I have a very solid and long-term ECs, publications and volunteering
My MCAT is 500 and GPA is a high trend but my very low GPA in the first two years of univ have resulted in a very low cumulative GPA but my Graduate GPA is 3.7

I have two options:

1. Either Postbac in US or in Canada (Royal Crown College: http://www.royalcrowncollege.com/)
Postbac in US means you are paying 50,000 USD with no guarantee in getting in

or

2. SGU ( since it has the best matching rate among all others) https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2016

The reason I am considering SGU is just bec I am a non-traditional applicant and have just realized the longevity of this profession and as you age, the chances of getting residency position goes lower especially if you are studying abroad!

Any comments appreciated!

 

[gyngyn]

Hello to all the commenters here,
Thanks for all your feedback and responses!
I am in the same boat as @AspiringDO94,

I have a very solid and long-term ECs, publications and volunteering
My MCAT is 500 and GPA is a high trend but my very low GPA in the first two years of univ have resulted in a very low cumulative GPA but my Graduate GPA is 3.7

I have two options:

1. Either Postbac in US or in Canada (Royal Crown College: http://www.royalcrowncollege.com/)
Postbac in US means you are paying 50,000 USD with no guarantee in getting in

or

2. SGU ( since it has the best matching rate among all others) https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2016

The reason I am considering SGU is just bec I am a non-traditional applicant and have just realized the longevity of this profession and as you age, the chances of getting residency position goes lower especially if you are studying abroad!

Any comments appreciated!

Post bac is a far better choice. You don't have to pay top dollar. Even better, re-take the low scores at a CC and go DO.

 

[PERSISTtill the end]

Post bac is a far better choice. You don't have to pay top dollar. Even better, re-take the low scores at a CC and go DO.

thanks so much for your response.
In terms of tuition fees, Postbac in US is extremely expensive ( about 50,000$ USD) and in Canada ( ~ 20,000 CAD)
I was wondering about DO, is it true that the DO/MD merging negatively impact IMGs and Caribbean graduates?

 

[gyngyn]

thanks so much for your response.
In terms of tuition fees, Postbac in US is extremely expensive ( about 50,000$ USD) and in Canada ( ~ 20,000 CAD)
I was wondering about DO, is it true that the DO/MD merging negatively impact IMGs and Caribbean graduates?

98% of DOs match. Attrition for all US student physicians is very low.
A DIY bost bac can also be effective and is a lot less expensive.
Without regard to the merger, there is no comparison for IMG's. Don't take the risk.

 

[jayw288]

As a current SGU student, re-apply or do a post grad program. Do whatever you have to to avoid SGU.

 

[PERSISTtill the end]

As a current SGU student, re-apply or do a post grad program. Do whatever you have to to avoid SGU.

Why do you say that?

 

[PERSISTtill the end]

As a current SGU student, re-apply or do a post grad program. Do whatever you have to to avoid SGU.

it makes me wonder, a few of my friends have went to SGU , they are residents in U.S or Canada and they harp on the same advice, although not negative about SGU but they mention about residency chances although they all got to their desired residency positions!
But what is your reasoning behind your statement?