To pre-pharm students and pharmacists

[Farcus]

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm#tab-1

job outlook growth next 10 year, 3% lol, #rage, i sincerely hope this will discourage some of you pre-pharm people to look elsewhere, if its 3% now think what it'll be by the time you graduate

sorry pharmd student ya came in at the wrong time

discuss... go!

edit: looked at dds, od, dpm all above 10% growth though i'm skeptical how some of these growth would occur as i have close friends in both dentistry and friend of a friend in poditary they all they its not like what it used to be

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[phuong123]

Yeah I don't understand why there are still many students applying for pharmacy schools, more than accepted, if their goal is to get a job and pay off student loan.
There are like 900 new jobs per year. There are about 130 pharm schools. I wonder exactly how many new graduates there are each year.
I see somewhere they say that jobs in rural areas are also saturated even if you're willing to move.
Where can I find the info about how many among 2015 or 2016 graduates did have a job and how many haven't had one yet?

 

[Twentytwelve2]

Tons of new schools.

Retail chain mergers.

Lower rx reimbursements.

Increasing tuition

Am I missing something here?

 

[wagrxm2000]

This is shocking news.

 

[tnva92]

http://pharmacymanpower.com/about.jsp
http://pharmacymanpower.com/usstatemap.jsp any thoughts about this site. Is it reliable?

 

[steveysmith54]

Yeah I don't understand why there are still many students applying for pharmacy schools, more than accepted, if their goal is to get a job and pay off student loan.
There are like 900 new jobs per year. There are about 130 pharm schools. I wonder exactly how many new graduates there are each year.
I see somewhere they say that jobs in rural areas are also saturated even if you're willing to move.
Where can I find the info about how many among 2015 or 2016 graduates did have a job and how many haven't had one yet?

I made a post about this is a while ago.. Answer is simple.. Pharm.D. is the easiest doctorate to get. People still think fairly highly about it. People are misinformed think it's an easy 130K.

 

[gwarm01]

Growth was >25% when I entered the field. The continuing downward trend has me worried, and that's as a practicing pharmacist working in specialty areas. Things might get bad going forward.

 

[VA77]

http://pharmacymanpower.com/about.jsp
http://pharmacymanpower.com/usstatemap.jsp any thoughts about this site. Is it reliable?

I was wondering the same thing since the date on the state map has March 2016. That is almost 1 year!!

 

[Monsterdaddy]

I've been watching pharmacy enrollment at various schools. Applications keep dropping. Schools are having to accept weaker and weaker students.

On-time graduation rates are dropping and now in this last year it finally appear to be hitting NAPLEX pass rates (and MPJE pass rates even more!)

And I'm not seeing much wage weakness in the hospital sector. The glut is probably going to hit the mail order and retail far more.

 

[steveysmith54]

this year and next year will be interesting for those of us who live in CA. We have chapman grads who will add 70 or so new grads to the market. Then next year we have KGI, West Coast, and CHSU who are proly going to add around 300 more grads. I see a lot of kids going on PAYE bc no way there is 40 hours of full time labor for them.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

Well, let's see if they can pass the new 250 question NAPLEX

 

[phuong123]

I see a lot of kids going on PAYE bc no way there is 40 hours of full time labor for them.

Wow, pharmacy graduates on PAYE ???

 

[PAtoPharm]

I read somewhere else that the BLS prediction stats for pharmacy will be updated in December 2017, so when the time comes, it will be interesting to see if job market growth projections will remain at 3%, worsen, or improve.

 

[radio frequency]

Wow, pharmacy graduates on PAYE ???

I definitely feel like a lot of my classmates are on PAYE or REPAYE. That wasn't my route (thankfully).

 

[gwarm01]

Wow, pharmacy graduates on PAYE ???

I'm just shocked that kids are getting student loans.

 

[phuong123]

I just hope all pre-pharm students understand that the chance of being on PAYE after graduating is very high (like 97%) if they get student loans.

 

[phuong123]

I'm just shocked that kids are getting student loans.

Isn't loan the way students use the most to pay for their tuition?

 

[phuong123]

I made a post about this is a while ago.. Answer is simple.. Pharm.D. is the easiest doctorate to get. People still think fairly highly about it. People are misinformed think it's an easy 130K.

I can't believe they are misinformed. Can't they just spend a couple minutes to search for job market outlook when they apply for pharmacy school(s)???

 

[SmallPharma]

So you're saying that I won't be able to do 25-30 years in the retail setting?

 

[gwarm01]

Isn't loan the way students use the most to pay for their tuition?

I'm making a joke about referring to adults as "kids."

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

edit: looked at dds, od, dpm all above 10% growth though i'm skeptical how some of these growth would occur as i have close friends in both dentistry and friend of a friend in poditary they all they its not like what it used to be

I'm skeptical of the BLS data for these fields also. Pharmacy was "hot" until the last report.

There is only one healthcare field that has guaranteed job security and that is the almighty MD/DO. Dentists have catastrophic debts (easily 250K+) but lower reimbursements, ODs have ****ty job prospects and high debts (anywhere from 150k-200k+), and DPMs are "foot doctors" that have to compete with the more sexy-sounding orthopedic surgeons and sports medicine docs.

P.S. I went to an OD for an eye checkup an year ago. When I went to the front desk, I stole a peek at his calendar book, and was shocked when I found that he only had 4 patients booked for that entire week. When I rang the bell, this 'doctor' of optometry came in from his office to check me in because he couldn't afford to hire a secretary for his practice.

 

[steveysmith54]

I'm skeptical of the BLS data for these fields also. Pharmacy was "hot" until the last report.

There is only one healthcare field that has guaranteed job security and that is the almighty MD/DO. Dentists have catastrophic debts (easily 250K+) but lower reimbursements, ODs have ****ty job prospects and high debts (anywhere from 150k-200k+), and DPMs are "foot doctors" that have to compete with the more sexy-sounding orthopedic surgeons and sports medicine docs.

P.S. I went to an OD for an eye checkup an year ago. When I went to the front desk, I stole a peek at his calendar book, and was shocked when I found that he only had 4 patients booked for that entire week. When I rang the bell, this 'doctor' of optometry came in from his office to check me in because he couldn't afford to hire a secretary for his practice.

just curious, why is OD practice down?

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

just curious, why is OD practice down?

Just visit the OD forums on SDN. But, I'll give you a simplified bullet-point summary from what I gathered:

• There have been a increase in OD schools, but no increase in demand for OD services.
  
• Also, OD practices typically made their money by selling glasses and contact lenses, not from the actual services they provide. Their profits have been undercut by cheap online retailers.
  
• Evil optical insurance plans give out increasingly low reimbursements for eye checkups.
  
• Schools have been harping on some vague expansion in practice scope, but there are only a limited number of states where ODs can do really cool things (like surgery in Oklahoma! I'd be happy to live there, but the coastal citizens of this country would rather kill themselves than move out to this deep-red region).
• Plus, OD schools are not present in every state of this union, so even if you could get into a school, you may have to go to a private school or a out-of-state public school. Going to OD school can be more expensive than going to pharmacy school in certain circumstances.

So, basically the same issues that plague the pharmacy world are also plaguing the optometry world. Furthermore, most people only visit an optometrist every few years, as opposed to most people visiting the pharmacy multiple times a year. There's definitely more business when it comes to pushing pills than pushing glasses.

 

[CMUchicka]

I'm skeptical of the BLS data for these fields also. Pharmacy was "hot" until the last report.

There is only one healthcare field that has guaranteed job security and that is the almighty MD/DO. Dentists have catastrophic debts (easily 250K+) but lower reimbursements, ODs have ****ty job prospects and high debts (anywhere from 150k-200k+), and DPMs are "foot doctors" that have to compete with the more sexy-sounding orthopedic surgeons and sports medicine docs.

P.S. I went to an OD for an eye checkup an year ago. When I went to the front desk, I stole a peek at his calendar book, and was shocked when I found that he only had 4 patients booked for that entire week. When I rang the bell, this 'doctor' of optometry came in from his office to check me in because he couldn't afford to hire a secretary for his practice.

How about physical therapy? Is that field booming lately, seen lot of people applying?

 

[steveysmith54]

Just visit the OD forums on SDN. But, I'll give you a simplified bullet-point summary from what I gathered:

• There have been a increase in OD schools, but no increase in demand for OD services.
  
• Also, OD practices typically made their money by selling glasses and contact lenses, not from the actual services they provide. Their profits have been undercut by cheap online retailers.
  
• Evil optical insurance plans give out increasingly low reimbursements for eye checkups.
  
• Schools have been harping on some vague expansion in practice scope, but there are only a limited number of states where ODs can do really cool things (like surgery in Oklahoma! I'd be happy to live there, but the coastal citizens of this country would rather kill themselves than move out to this deep-red region).
• Plus, OD schools are not present in every state of this union, so even if you could get into a school, you may have to go to a private school or a out-of-state public school. Going to OD school can be more expensive than going to pharmacy school in certain circumstances.

So, basically the same issues that plague the pharmacy world are also plaguing the optometry world. Furthermore, most people only visit an optometrist every few years, as opposed to most people visiting the pharmacy multiple times a year. There's definitely more business when it comes to pushing pills than pushing glasses.

Interesting.... thanks for the summary .. sounds like the current pharmacy practice: more schools and mail order taking over

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

How about physical therapy? Is that field booming lately, seen lot of people applying?

I'm not too familiar with this field. But I'll list some things I've gathered:

• According to my nurse friends, the PTs were the original sinners when it came to the recent adoption of the "doctor" moniker by all professions in the healthcare field. Now we have "doctors" of physical therapy, pharmacy, audiology, nurse practice, nurse anesthesiology, etc. The only area of the hospital that does not have a "doctorate-level" personnel is environmental/janitorial services.
• Over 231 schools in the US and still climbing... If you thought Pharmacy school expansion was bad, PT school expansion leaves it in the dust.
• PTs have a base pay of 60-70K for their services. If they want more than that, they need to work extra hard for that cash.
  
• Tons of private schools with exorbitant tuition. I've seen PTs on online forums talk about having 150K-200K of debt. That is unreal for a before-tax salary of 60K.
• Decreasing reimbursements for PT services. Plus increasing competition for jobs and patients as more PT students graduate.
  
• I've seen a ton of PT practices pop up in my BFE area in the last few years. But I don't see too many patients going to these places. While a physician's practice or a pharmacy will have a good number of cars in their lot on any given day, I'd be hard-pressed to say the same for PT practices.
• Competition from OTs and Chiropractors for patients.

Edit: I edited some mistakes I found. I guess base pay is 60-70K not 50-60K. And the number if schools is 231, not 226.
Here's an interesting thread about it here on SDN PT.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

I'm skeptical of the BLS data for these fields also. Pharmacy was "hot" until the last report.

There is only one healthcare field that has guaranteed job security and that is the almighty MD/DO. Dentists have catastrophic debts (easily 250K+) but lower reimbursements, ODs have ****ty job prospects and high debts (anywhere from 150k-200k+), and DPMs are "foot doctors" that have to compete with the more sexy-sounding orthopedic surgeons and sports medicine docs.

P.S. I went to an OD for an eye checkup an year ago. When I went to the front desk, I stole a peek at his calendar book, and was shocked when I found that he only had 4 patients booked for that entire week. When I rang the bell, this 'doctor' of optometry came in from his office to check me in because he couldn't afford to hire a secretary for his practice.

Like anything else, everyone has to choose their paths wisely. There is a lot of doom and gloom around all the forums lately. Personally' I'd only recommend the DDS/DMD if you can get into your state school or plan on specializing. And state school meaning 250k or less. After that, it just becomes too much of a weight on one's shoulders early on in the profession. When I was deciding which path to choose, the battle for me was DDS vs MD. Both of my parents are MD's and I've seen how hard they work. They are never truly "off." Its a secure job that pays well, but by golly will you give up a lot..
I went into dental school knowing that I wanted my debt to be less than a certain number, and I was determined to do whatever it took to specialize. If I had no idea what I enjoyed,(kids) then I'd probably have just bit the bullet and went MD.
I think everyone has to do a very personal cost benefit analysis for themselves. Its getting to the point where if someone is serious about a particular profession, it may be worth it to move to a cheaper state tuition wise, obtain residency after a year and then apply...
I truly feel for those with absurd amounts of debt because it hurts the entire profession when you think about it. When people cant pay off their debts, they become desperate, and choose less reputable paths...

 

[lord999]

I'm not too familiar with this field. But I'll list some things I've gathered:

• According to my nurse friends, the PTs were the original sinners when it came to the recent adoption of the "doctor" moniker by all professions in the healthcare field. Now we have "doctors" of physical therapy, pharmacy, audiology, nurse practice, nurse anesthesiology, etc. The only area of the hospital that does not have a "doctorate-level" personnel is environmental/janitorial services.
• Over 226 schools in the US and still climbing... If you thought Pharmacy school expansion was bad, PT school expansion leaves it in the dust.
• PTs have a base pay of 50-60K for their services. If they want more than that, they need to work extra hard for that cash.
  
• Tons of private schools with exorbitant tuition. I've seen PTs on online forums talk about having 150K-200K of debt. That is unreal for a before-tax salary of 60K.
• Decreasing reimbursements for PT services. Plus increasing competition for jobs and patients as more PT students graduate.
  
• I've seen a ton of PT practices pop up in my BFE area in the last few years. But I don't see too many patients going to these places. While a physician's practice or a pharmacy will have a good number of cars in their lot on any given day, I'd be hard-pressed to say the same for PT practices.

Tells you what they know. The original sin was us, USC being the first in around 1956-1959, but we didn't make the PharmD a mandated entry until the 01 entering class. Then again, the PharmD was originally meant to enter industry to deal with physical pharmacy (today's pharmaceutics) and pharmacognosy in the sciences or lead a details team in the business side.

PT's used to actually have a higher average salary than that. 60k seems low, it should be 80s. But they shot up high and then stagnated.

We're aren't like other clinicians which depend on procedural coding in order to justify the business. If we were, I would be surprised if we cleared $50k. The VA average clinical pharmacist if paid exclusively for an eight hour clinical day (the majority are not), 1920 hours a year would barely make $72k if we were reimbursement on primary care rates, which we wouldn't.

As for hospital pharmacist pay, to even be near parity with retail is a dream come true. Institutional pharmacy spent most of its history through the 00s being paid anywhere from 10-30% less than the retail equivalent. Hospital pharmacy probably could not pay any less before the residency thing came up. VA used to be the worst paying place in town, which is kind of sad as they are now probably the best paying hospital group in the country now overall (not California or NYC).

 

[Niosh]

Just to put things in perspective, Canada has only 9 pharmacy schools, and the US has 139. Additionally, their standards for pharmacists are much higher than ours, and their licensing exam is very difficult while our Naplex is a joke. We are oversaturating the market with dumb pharmacists. When will these pharmacy organizations and boards of pharmacy realize that quality matters more than quantity?

Continuing the theme of perspective, Canada's population is ~35m and USA's is ~319m. It doesn't completely account for the difference in number of pharmacy schools, but the difference isn't simply 9 vs 139. I still think we have too many. 52 new schools since 2000. 35 in the last 10 years.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Ok, so if we have about 10 times the population of Canada, then if we had 90 pharmacy schools, it would be comparable to their 9. We have 139!!! 49 extra! I think California alone has 12 pharmacy schools, more than all of Canada, and they have roughly the same population.

California is already very saturated, yet 4 of the 12 pharmacy schools have not even graduated their first class yet.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

PT's used to actually have a higher average salary than that. 60k seems low, it should be 80s. But they shot up high and then stagnated.

My bad. I was wrong about the salaries for DPTs. I based it on what I heard from friends who had parents who were PTs. The results from Google search claims DPT salaries to be around 84K, but according to this thread its around 60-70K starting (higher if you're willing to sell your soul to a heartless corporation).

Tells you what they know. The original sin was us, USC being the first in around 1956-1959, but we didn't make the PharmD a mandated entry until the 01 entering class. Then again, the PharmD was originally meant to enter industry to deal with physical pharmacy (today's pharmaceutics) and pharmacognosy in the sciences or lead a details team in the business side.

And I guess the PharmD was actually a useful degree back then if it could get you a job in industry. Nowadays, it seems like a PharmD is a hindrance to getting those jobs.

We're aren't like other clinicians which depend on procedural coding in order to justify the business. If we were, I would be surprised if we cleared $50k. The VA average clinical pharmacist if paid exclusively for an eight hour clinical day (the majority are not), 1920 hours a year would barely make $72k if we were reimbursement on primary care rates, which we wouldn't.

As for hospital pharmacist pay, to even be near parity with retail is a dream come true. Institutional pharmacy spent most of its history through the 00s being paid anywhere from 10-30% less than the retail equivalent. Hospital pharmacy probably could not pay any less before the residency thing came up. VA used to be the worst paying place in town, which is kind of sad as they are now probably the best paying hospital group in the country now overall (not California or NYC).

You're preaching to the choir, pal. Half my family are pharmacists, and they never bought into this whole "clinical" pharmacy nonsense. There is a need for pharmacy services in the hospital, but not the way they sell it at the schools. There's a very limited need for a midlevel provider who don't get a formal "professional" education in anatomy or diagnosis (sorry pre-pharmers, but getting a C in community college-level anatomy class doesn't count). From what I've heard, PAs and NPs take a dumbed-down, simplified version of those subjects.

One of my professors (an old dog who owned his own pharmacy for decades) told me once "I don't get why people are doing residencies. If they wanted to do that kind of work, why don't they just go to PA school?"

 

[raydawg82]

Very interesting discussion about where pharmacy is heading when I graduate. I guess my decision to work after college to gain experience and prepare me for graduate school was the right one. Most of my classmates took student loans out but with the interest rate they are basically never going to be able to pay off their graduate loans. Sure I am older than most people in pharmacy school, but I saw the trend. I am prepared to enter the work force debt free and working 20-30 hours a week to make under $100,000 a year. I think that is more reality at least here in California where there just is not a guarantee of normal hours.

Pharmacists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

job outlook growth next 10 year, 3% lol, #rage, i sincerely hope this will discourage some of you pre-pharm people to look elsewhere, if its 3% now think what it'll be by the time you graduate

sorry pharmd student ya came in at the wrong time

discuss... go!

edit: looked at dds, od, dpm all above 10% growth though i'm skeptical how some of these growth would occur as i have close friends in both dentistry and friend of a friend in poditary they all they its not like what it used to be

 

[jblil]

I guess base pay is 60-70K not 50-60K [for PTs]. And the number if schools is 231, not 226.
Here's an interesting thread about it here on SDN PT.

PT here. I also started the thread on PTs' salaries that you referred to.

Our starting pay is about $65K. However, being a traveling PT can push it up to more than $100K easy.
Too many schools opening up, including online schools (South College and soon, Baylor). For a profession that's very hands-on, I find it absurd.
Several of my classmates are $100K+ in debt. That's crazy.
The "doctor" moniker is useless, just like in Pharmacy.
Pros: the lifestyle is fairly good, as long as you avoid working in "patient mills". I have practically zero stress now, esp. when compared to my previous job in the software industry. The first few days as a PT, I thought the hospital's email system was down because I only had about a dozen emails per day. I used to get a couple of hundred.

 

[rxdawg21]

PT here. I also started the thread on PTs' salaries that you referred to.

Our starting pay is about $65K. However, being a traveling PT can push it up to more than $100K easy.
Too many schools opening up, including online schools (South College and soon, Baylor). For a profession that's very hands-on, I find it absurd.
Several of my classmates are $100K+ in debt. That's crazy.
The "doctor" moniker is useless, just like in Pharmacy.
Pros: the lifestyle is fairly good, as long as you avoid working in "patient mills". I have practically zero stress now, esp. when compared to my previous job in the software industry. The first few days as a PT, I thought the hospital's email system was down because I only had about a dozen emails per day. I used to get a couple of hundred.

My n=2 experience is that in Georgia outside Atlanta pt are making around 80k starting out. One of them started traveling (30m radius) and is now making 70ish an hour and not working 40 hours. Typically is done around 1400 each day. Gives them time to run small side PT practice on side. Wish pharmacy had similar gigs to that.

 

[DiscoverID]

Well, let's see if they can pass the new 250 question NAPLEX

Honestly, if you spend some time to study, you will pass. But yeah, the market is going down hill. CVS and WGs are getting picky with the new hires as well. No longer, if I can't find a job here, then I will just work for CVS or WG