To TomOD

Discussion in 'Optometry' started by medstud721, Jan 9, 2002.

  1. medstud721

    medstud721 Member
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    TomOD-

    As a fourth year medical student and future otolaryngologist, I'd like to set a few things straight.

    Ophthalmology (along with ENT, orthopedics, plastic surgery, and dermatology) is a career that only the highest performing medical students even have a shot to enter. It is extremely difficult to get into.

    To become an ophthalmologist is a privelege. Ophthalmology is a surgical subspecialty, as is ortho, ENT, urology, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, colorectal surgery, etc.

    You commented that it is a "waste of four years to learn general medicine in med school" in becoming an ophthalmologist. Do you feel the same way about the cosmetic plastic surgeon? The urologist? The colorectal surgeon? The orthopedic surgeon? How about myself, who plans on doing an otolaryngology residency and specializing in otology? Have I wasted time learning general medicine?? I think not. Rather, over time I will have the educational base and privelege, as ophthalmologists do, of performing, elegant, high stakes precise surgery on vital sensory structures. Patients want someone doing these sorts of operations to be able to keep their cool when complications arise. Med school makes this sort of person.

    Only the most advanced of fourth year medical students ever have the privelege of suturing a lid laceration or assisting in tympanostomy tube placement, or throwing a conjunctival or corneal suture, and it is the basic surgical skills learned on surgical clerkships in med school that provide the foundation for ophthalmic surgery. You don't seem to understand the idea of "medical specialists", otherwise you wouldn't make the comment about specialized MD's "wasting time with years of general medicine".

    You also stated that you rarely refer patients to general ophthalmologists and thus "optometry and ophthalmology" are merging. Consider this--people go to you for glasses and rarely a SERIOUS health related eye condition(I'm not referring to the trivial cases of pink eye here--I know you treat those--so do acupuncturist and chiropractors). Thus, you don't do much referring to general ophthalmologists!! The heart of your field is and will always be glasses/contacts--ophthalmologists derive the love of what they do not from trivial refractions, but rather from elegant ophthalmic surgical procedures and from treating eye disease and eye disease as it relates to systemic disease.

    Take call just one day with an ophthalmology resident, and after you are done repairing an orbital blowout fracture with plate fixation of the orbital floor, resecting an adenoma of the lacrimal gland, reparing a full-thickness lid laceration through the tarsal plate, performing a blepharoplasty, evacuating a retrobulbar hematoma, repairing an open globe, admitting a case of endophthalmitis or orbital cellulitis for IV antibiotics,etc., I guarantee you will forever understand the difference between an ophthalmologist(MD) and yourself, a visual expert(OD), and why the vast distinction between the two fields, in both the training required and the perception of the public.

    You are in a field that must be monitored. The "doctorate" you receive is of no greater worth or legitamacy than that of a chiropractor,i.e. you are self-proclaimed "docs" and this is the perception of the public and the medical community--simply ask around.

    Thus, the reason that you can't wield a blade or a needle is because you didn't earn the privelege. You didn't graduate in the top 5% of your college class and get accepted to med school. Since you never went to med school, you never graduated in the top 10% of your med school class to have that shot of becoming an eye surgeon/ophthalmologist.

    Good to clear the air-- Medicine 101 for optom TOM

    There is nothing wrong with fitting people for glasses--I go to an optometrist for my contacts!!

    medstud721
     
  2. abs1

    abs1 Senior Member
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    Wow, Med"dud", you MUST be feeling some sort of insecurities to go so OVERBOARD on that post???? Didnt we OVERREACT just a bit, there??

    I hope that telling yourself that you are the best of the best made you feel better.

    All bow to Med"dud"!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    I feel sorry for your patients....
     
  3. chury

    chury Member
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    I meant to tell him that but did not want to waste my time.

    Good point med guy.
     
  4. TomOD

    TomOD Senior Member
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    Medstud721,

    Thanks for showing me the light.....But I would think someone as brilliant as you who "graduated at the top 5% of his class" would not misspell "privilege" not once but twice.

    I hope I am as smart as you one day.

    Tom
     
  5. TomOD

    TomOD Senior Member
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    I'm sorry, that last post was childish of me. I am not going to debate Einstein but I did want to mention a few things.

    To all of the students reading these post, I wanted to say that the animosity shown here at times is rarely, if ever, displayed in the real world. I have a great amount of respect for ophthalmologists and could not have the successful practice that I have if it were not for them. Just today I referred 3 patients for cataract surgery and one for stabismus surgery. As I said before, I work with 3 of the best ophthalmologists in this part of country regularly. We are friends. We have lunch. They are much too busy doing complicated surgeries to worry about me treating a chalazion or doing F.A.'s. They depend on me for referrals and I depend on them to pick up where my skills (surgical) and licensing leave off.

    My original post about the two profession eventually merging are, I think, realistic. Many OMD's have set up opticals to sell glasses and contacts (where that was once unknown and even considered unethical in the OMD community) mostly because surgical fee keep dropping. Medicare today only pays around $600 for a cataract surgery. That's rediculously low. Optometrists have moved into medical eye treatment (partly) to help offset lost revenue from OMD's and commercial establishments selling eyewear.

    Hence the MERGING of the professions. I am not an advocate of OD's doing major surgery at this point. But I do think it will happen in the future...perhaps in the next 25 to 50 years. I will be long retired by then so it is not a real concern to me. Dentist do surgery without going to medical school but noone seem to be concerned about that.....Only when the money issue comes into play does feathers get ruffled.

    There will always be a role for the highly skilled surgeon....at least until we advance beyond the barbaric stage of cuting people with knives and our technology allows up to do better.

    Therefore, relax, learn, and do your own thing. Life is short. Enjoy what you do, patients will notice. (And they won't care if you were the top student at Harvard if your an ass to their face). ;)
     
  6. cpw

    cpw It's a boy !!!
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    well said Tom.. :)
     
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  7. UWSO2003

    UWSO2003 Member
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    Oh my ... again with all this.

    First of all, I don't think anyone honestly gives this chury fellow any credibility. First of all, he is ignorant of what of the whole North American health care system is about, and secondly he is too much of a coward (and perhaps for good reason)to defend any of his claims.

    Now to medstud721 (I will not snicker) you are obviously one of those highly competitive, very insecure type-A personailities, and unfortunately typical MD student that pervades these discussion groups. People often claim that OD's have inferiority complexes ....and at times I have to say I agree. But the sheer arrogance and presumptuousness of MD students is appalling ... I feel sorry for your future patients.

    For those of you who KNOW me, my ex-girlfriend is in her clerkship year at a MD school here in Canada. As well, I have several family members who are MDs (be it GP's, dermatologists or pediatric neonatologists) and several close friends who are well respected OMD's. Each and everyone of them would rather string you up to a pole rather than call you a colleague. People like you undermine the excellent working relationship that most health care professions (stress this last word) have with each other.

    It seems that all hot shot MD students somehow feel that they are the academic cream of the crop. Let me set the record straight ... you are not ... WE are not. I have no doubt health care providers are intelligent people .... but consider that most of our learning is memorization and application. Now consider most professional engineers and specifically Engineering Science and Aerospace Engineering graduates. Yes I am proud that you feel you a throw on a corneal suture ... but any monkey with enough training can perform most surgeries.

    You must realise that most ODs have a great deal of respect for OMDs and their level of training. Do I feel that I have the educational background to resect a tumour ... NO. But, do not fool yourself into thinking that your 4 years of getting your MD degree is anything more than laying the most basic foundation for your future studies. Speak to any honest and humble specialist and they will tell you that they will not step an inch outside of what their specialty is. An example I can think of are the two OMDs I know. Both do not register as Doctors when they travel by air ... why???? Because what use would an EYE DOCTOR be in these situations? Wake up man and be real.

    Most major centers in Canada and the US are rampant with OMDs that relegate themselves to practicing nothing more than full scope optometry. Although I'm impressed with your familiarity with eye terms, but do you feel that most general OMDs, or OMDs for that matter would resect an adenoma of the lacrimal gland?? Then there are the GP's that insist they have enough training to refract ... and I will not even start with that topic again.

    The basic point TomOD is making, which I completely agree with is that in time there somehow will be a merging of the two professions at the most basic level. Is there a need for a general OMD nowadays? No. That would be a waste of 4 years of residency training. This is not to say just get rid of general OMDs and give all the patients to the ODs. Rather I feel that somehow when people are more sensible there will have to be a greater harmonization in the training of eye care professionals.

    All I ask of you .. and your colleagues is to keep an open mind. While we are privileged with a forum such as this to discuss issues which face both our professions, lest we not forget that we are all health care providers who hopefully strive to provide care as part of a highly trained interdisciplinary team ... FOR THE PATIENT!
     
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  8. cpw

    cpw It's a boy !!!
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    wow.. wish I could write like that... :D I found myself nodding along with the words to that one.. I like your style Freddie.
     
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  9. medstud721

    medstud721 Member
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    Dentists who perform surgery complete a five year residency after dental school to do so. They are also taught procedures in dental school. They are also board certified.

    Optometrists are not board certified. They are not taught procedures in optom school. If they were EVER allowed to apply for ophthalmology residency, their applications would be laughed off the table.

    My point--dentists do residency in oral and maxillofacial surgery(5 years)--rarely does an MD student opt to enter this field.

    Only the top 10-20% of med students even have the option of becoming an ophthalmologist, so why would an OD even be considered? Another thing--ophthalmologists admit patients to the hospital--during the admission, other conditions, such as hypertension, diabetes, heart disease have to be monitored and treated. What would the optometrist do here?? You CAN NOT write prescriptions for the necessary medications, nor do you have any knowledge of these conditions.

    How does this sound(no pun intended)? Let's let audiologists(people who do hearing tests and evaluate hearing) begin to perform otologic surgery--you know, tympanostomy tubes, cochlear implants...sound ridiculous? No difference in optometrists attempting to step foot in the field of eye surgery. It has not happened yet, nor will it EVER happen. TomOD, not in 25-50 years, not in 2500 years. Don't delude yourself, TomOD, in attempt to legitimize your field of questionable medical legitamacy.

    Optoms do a very good job of fitting people for frames and contacts, and at refracting. The maverick optom that attempts to stray from this path has issues with the career he/she has chosen.
     
  10. medstud721

    medstud721 Member
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    The job of a comprehensive ophthalmologist is vastly different from that of an optometrist.

    One is an MD, a medical and surgical subspecialist. Usually bugged by trivial things such as fitting contacts or refracting. Surgeons/medical doctors are bored with such mundane stuff. Thus, the fields will never merge.

    Refracting is the bane of the existence, the raison d'etre, of the optom. Very occasionally, a patient will mistakenly visit one for a health related eye condition(instead of going to their family doc I guess). Because of this, and because some optoms can prescribe drops for pink eye or remove superficial foreign bodies(any monkey can do this), they like to consider themselves part of the health care team.

    The professions of comprehensive ophthalmology(eye medicine, eye surgery) is vastly different from the field of optometry(vision expert, spectacle fitter, pink eye treater). Any optom on this forum that tries to compare these two different fields, or imply that they are merging, is delusional or simply ignorant.

    Anything that an optom is allowed to do in eye care would otherwise be done by a family doc(PCP) and not referred to an eyeMD. So, in reality, the patients are "lost" to the family doc, not the eyeMD--thus no "merging" is occurring between eyeMD's and optoms. Any serious ocular disease, people, requires treatment by an MD--that's a fact. Whether referred from the optom or the PCP, the buck stops with the eyeMD.

    Also, this "OMD" stuff is foolish. This is a term coined by "OD's" in order to make themselves feel less inferior to the EYEMD's. No credible health care provider uses the term "OMD". It's either ophthalmologist, eye physician, or eyeMD. The service in hospitals is referred to as "EYE" or "OPHTHO", but you people wouldn't know, because you've never stepped foot in a hospital as a health care provider.

    I had to vent--chiros and optoms can be downwright foolish...
     
  11. Big_Poppa DDS

    Big_Poppa DDS Senior Member
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    med,

    what is wrong with you!
     
  12. TomOD

    TomOD Senior Member
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    I think we are dealing with a "small penis issue" here. What would be the medical term for that stud? :D
     
  13. Jubileee

    Jubileee Member
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    Medstud..

    You need to get your head out of your @ss and pay attention to the majority of posts that have been made on this forum and the other optometry forums.

    Your little tirade about how we do the grunt work that OMD's (oh excuse me for abbreviating and making sure people are clear on the difference between us and the ophthos since I had to tell many a patient the diff) don't want to do is exactly how most of us feel. Then we get people who come in and tell us that we aren't in a "real" profession, we are just slackers since we didn't apply ourselves to go to the only one true way to be in the medical field..medical school like that is the ultimate goal of every person who is of intelligence and sound mind.

    I do believe the posting that got your panties in a bunch was where Tom was asking why should he go through med school/ residency / and additional studies to become on ophtho when he has no interest in the surgical aspects and is primarily concerned with disease management and refractive errors. A lot of us feel the same way. Those I believe are the same areas that you were saying we are to stay in...

    Now if you are the creme de la creme, the elite, what have you, why do your collegues feel it is necessary to open a dispensary when they would rather not refract at all? It seems to me like OD aren't the only ones looking for more of that optical pie...

    Why is it that it is ok for dentists to have a 5 year residency to do oral surgery, and it is not ok for ODs to do eye surgery after such residency? There currently are residencies out there leaning towards surgical aspects, and many schools are teaching it. It isn't like the ODs are trying to expand their rights w/o education.

    And why is it that every optho who bothers posting on here seems to think that we are idjits who didn't have a prayer at getting in, let alone handling the rigors of med school. CAN YOU PEOPLE GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL THAT NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE AN MD.....EVEN IF THEY ARE SMART?!?

    If we have a patient who presents with symptoms consistent with high blood pressure, diabetes, tumors, etc..we can always refer them to the appropriate health care provider. Or if it is that urgent, dial 911 and have them taken to the ER.

    Tom and many other ODs have saved patients lives cause they caught the signs of a life threatening condition and sent verification of the diagnosis and treatment. They may not be ultimately responsible for the care the patient receives for the condition, but then again, I wouldn't want an Ophtho treating my heart condition either.

    Cassandra
    Sick and tired of being told that Optometry is a wrong profession for people who couldn't go to med school...
     
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  14. Jubileee

    Jubileee Member
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    just out of curiosity, are dentists and podiatrists doctors or wannabes?
     
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  15. Big_Poppa DDS

    Big_Poppa DDS Senior Member
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    I am a senior dental student, and the other day I was screening a patient (med Hx, vital signs) and the patient said to me your almost like a doctor?

    The patient had the same mentality as other people in this forum!
     
  16. christie

    christie Senior Member
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    Medstud 721,

    I agree with abs1..I feel sorry for your patients. You seem very close minded to other fields in the health care system. Why?

    You're not telling us facts here, rather showing your ignorance, and thats the truth.

    People do not go to Optometrists soley for glasses and rarely see serious health related eye conditions...An Optometrist is a PRIMARY eye care provider.

    Not everyone wants to be an MD like you did - there are other occupations out there that are just as rewarding and prestigous as a medical doctor. Get off your high horse!
     
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  17. puffy1

    puffy1 Senior Member
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    Ask anyone off the street to read these posts, and they will tell you that both sides are showing their insecurities.

    And if you notice, it's the pro-OD side that's making most (if not all) of the childish comments on this subject (for example, making light of someone's spelling errors, bringing up the subject of the size of one poster's body part, etc, etc.).
     
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  18. cpw

    cpw It's a boy !!!
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    we're just sick of hearing it EVERY DAY from people here. This forum is supposed to educate our fellow collegues about what we're here to do.. not as an pre-med punching bag. We resort to childish humor because after you beat the dead horse.. it's fun to jump up and down on him a few times. :rolleyes: Back to studying for pathology and ocular anatomy...
     
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  19. UWSO2003

    UWSO2003 Member
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    Puffy1,

    It's ashame that you chose to waste your time and bandwidth to address such a meaningless subtopic.

    In future,why don't you contribute to a discussion and adress the topic at hand i.e. why mutual respect between Optometrists and Ophthalmologists (happy?!) is so much more important than these childish mud-slinging contests.

    To CPW and everyone else, I'm sure that you all realise that immature weak minded comments like that from medstud are the exception and not the norm in real life. Most professionsals would rather focus on the care of the patient rather than pad their egos with nonsenseical put-downs.

    Let's hope that SDN won't degrade the the level of the other optom student discussion board that slowly died away after the childish antics of some pre-MD students.

    I was hoping that when I came here that this would be a fourm where student doctors would discuss things ranging from daily school life, to the anxiety of finding a job placement. Too bad for a few bad apples .....

    After September 11 there are so many more important things to life than these childish attacks from these preMD students .... I would have hoped that in light of the past year's events people would have started to treat each other with more of an open heart ...and mind .... it's a pity.
     
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  20. Jubileee

    Jubileee Member
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    OK...my first posting may have been a little harsh..but I still stand by my arguements.

    I do not hold any grudge against Ophthos in general. What I do hold grudge against is all Md students who seem to think that we are in a profession that shouldn't exist.

    I personally don't give a damn whether I get the privilege to have Dr in front of my name or not. I did not chose optometry for the title or the perks of being a doctor. What I did chose optometry for the ability to help people see. The chance to give back to the community in a way I not only love, but not to sound pompous, I am good at.

    I have been in the field of optics for 8 years now. Sure there have been times I thought I couldn't take it anymore, but it seems just when I am about to break, I have someone come in that truly needed my help, and I end up feeling so good about what I do, that I not only stick to it, but I charge further into it.

    While I may not be an OD yet, I have worked with several very good doctors. I have seen ODs pick up the signs of MS, Tumors, Diabetes, HBP, and the like. One in particular saved a little boy whom the ER referred to us when the boy was seeing double. His optic nerve was bulging, sent for scan, and he had a large tumor removed that night.

    It irritates me that so many of the people who are in optics seem to think that there particular field is getting pooped on by the rest. Opticians are unhappy about ODs and OMDs dispensing, ODs have to fight to further their rights and to justify the ones they currently do have, OMDs are fighting tooth and nail to stop it cause they want to protect their interests...Why can't the common interest be the care of the patient.

    It shouldn't matter if you were in the top 5% of your class or the lower twenty if you got your appropriate licensing to do what you do. In the end it isn't grades that will set you apart. I don't know a single patient who has asked where any of my collegues have placed at in their class. What matters is your attentiveness to their needs, your integrity, and your bedside manner.

    Now I still would like to know if Dentists are considered doctors or not from those who consider ODs only wannabes? I also want to know why OMDs are opening more and more dispensaries if they don't want to be bothered by refracting and the fitting of contacts? I also want to know what is wrong with allowing ODs to do surgical residencies if it is ok for dentists who don't go to med school either?

    Cassandra Personett
    Proud to be an OD wannabe...
     
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  21. cpw

    cpw It's a boy !!!
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    I know what you're saying totally, Freddie. I know they're the exception in real life, but unfortunately they're the norm here. I've been here almost a year and it's just started to get to me (along with all the stress of second semester... and it's just STARTED!)

    I'd be happy to discuss job placement, curriculum, etc with ANYONE! That's even why I started the optometry student diary which I hoped would be a resource for other pre-OD students to see what I'm going through. And, to possibly teach other MD's and pre-MD's about our skills and training so they could understand just how good the health care system could be if we all worked together. Referrals are our friends you know?!

    So, once I'm in a better mood (ie, this weekend) I'll stop being childish and steer the topics back to something more relevent to education.
    Needing a nap,
    cpw
     
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  22. chury

    chury Member
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    Australia: optometry program 4 years right after the high school. Degree optometrist (w/o doctor)

    England, germany, sweden same thing-optometrist!

    All other countries in the World except USA and Canada :D oes NOT EXIST!

    Same goes with chiropractors, foot doctors etc

    Dentist is a doctor of dental science in every single country in the world. Also known as Stomatologists! (or Doctors of stomatology). So they are the real doctors!
     
  23. medstud721

    medstud721 Member
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    General Practitioner: 4 years med school + 1 year general medicine residency

    Ophthalmologist: 4 years med school + 1 year general medicine residency(+ 3 years ophthalmic disease/surgery residency)

    So, an EyeMD could at any point treat diseases such as DM, HTN, etc. Some ophthalmologists function as primary care providers for their patients. Specialists know what generalists know, then some.


    Why can't OD's do residencies?? That's hilarious.

    First of all, dental school is essentially identical to medical school the first two years. Then, dentists have 2 PROCEDURE ORIENTED years in which they learn basic dentistry. They are well respected as board certified doctors by the medical community. If they so chose, after dental school, they can complete a 5 year residency to become an oral surgeon. 99% of oral surgery residents are dentists. Med students don't generally enter this field

    Now let's consider optometrists. They are respected for fitting glasses and refracting. They don't understand basic physiology as dentists do, they aren't trained in the art of procedures. Oh, yeah, and that other minor point--pulling teeth is a little different than repairing detached retinas!! Think about the complications of procedures such as cataract surgery vs. those of yanking wisdom teeth!!

    Also, ophthalmology is a highly desirable field for med students. Oral surgery is not. Someone behind the blade during eye surgery needs to be a calm, cool, intelligent individual with incredible manual dexterity. Med school makes this type of person. Optometry makes refractors.

    In order to train in any residency and become board certified, one must pass the UNITED STATES MEDICAL LISCENSING EXAM STEPS 1, 2 AND 3. This test would blow every optom in America away. There would be a 0% pass rate, people. That's why you can't, nor ever will be able to do a medical residency.

    A question to optoms--Should we let chiropractors do medical residencies? The degree you obtain is no more legit than theirs.
     
  24. MSERMAN

    MSERMAN Member
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    Bow Down to MedPud!!!

    You are really an insecure person! You have issues that need to be addressed with a board certified therapist. But wait, you are too good of a STUDENT (Not doctor yet) to visit one. I have worked with [email protected]#hole doctors like you, and let me tell you, no one likes them. You must have been picked on as a child and in high school called a dork, spazz, geek, you get the picture. You probably were a nerd in college and never got any chicks (maybe fat ones). You likely have no social skills and never will, so you come on this board and degrade people to make yourself feel better. So, please take your arrogant attitude over to the Allopathic chat room and leave this alone. Please, you are taking up valuable space. Please don't let the real bite you in the ass on the way out!! Peace Out!!
     
  25. JPFL75

    JPFL75 Member
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    Wow..this is a pretty entertaining thread...this whole OMD vs OD debate is nothing more than a variant of what goes on all the time w/in the medical community...I mean have you ever been in a room full of surgeons and hear them talking about family physicians...or ever care to take a listen on how IM docs rag on surgeons?? I could go on and on, but I think my point has been made....It even goes on w/in the various surgical specialties... Human nature is a funny thing...we all have our own little insecurities...To think that this is not the norm is either being too trusting or nieve of an individual
     
  26. Big_Poppa DDS

    Big_Poppa DDS Senior Member
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    MSERMAN,

    You are right on, you just forgot that he will probably become faculty and harass future md students
     
  27. puffy1

    puffy1 Senior Member
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  28. Jubileee

    Jubileee Member
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