Today a kittens Intestines were out made me rethink vetinary..

[WildlifeSaver]

Hi, one of my jobs I have is working at a animal shelter. I have been at this place since January and honestly, this is my first experiences for domestic animals since I have wildlife all over my resume. So, today, I come into work and do my rounds of feeding and its not until 15 mins later I find a kitten in a pen with her intestines out with about 7 kittens. I didn't look like it happened too long ago when I found this. It seemed to be her spay incision came loose somehow. It was very sad to watch this go down the way it did. Today is after all memorial day, so a vet wasn't in the shelter today. It was also hard to get a vet to come in too.

We have a spay shot clinic at my shelter, but its not the type of veterinary hospital you would get emergencies often to take care of. One of the techs have been doing this for almost 25 years or so and I watched her take care of the kitten, but i felt like it wasn't even the "all we could have done" scene for me...She talked to a vet and I was standing there holding the kitten down and she didn't ask what she could of done at first to the first vet she called until I asked what can we do until a doctor can came in. To me, the most most most important thing to do for any animal even if you think is dying is to provide comfort (oxygen, heat, pain meds etc). This kitten wanted to survive so badly. She held on for 3 hours until she painly passed.

The thing that gets me is why it took 4 vets to call to come in, why we didn't ask initially what can we do at the moment (we eventually washed off her organs that were hanging from a vets advice), NO HEAT???, NO PAIN meds were given so the kitten suffered hours. The kitten eventually freaked out with all the energy she ever could have and even bit a staff member where she broke skin. I could tell she was already in shock of course by the signs she gave and had (trying to vomit, pale gums, other). She eventully went into ultra shock where her eyes dilated and breathing rate droped drmatically. This kitten was about 3 months in age. The kitten couldn't hold on. She passed away.

The vet said he couldn't save her anyway because she had strangulated intestines. All of her intestines were not ripped or broken from the naked eye though.

You know you watch those tv shows on animal planet, health discovery and hear those stories about humdy dumdy. If we could put back a humans intestines that come out why can't we do it for a animal???? Is it because its not ethical to try and do everything we possibly can espcially for a kitten? Is it because their life in reality is less valuable then a more intelligent animal in this world? Is it because.... So many questions I ask myself.

I once thought when I was a little girl with all her dreams and hope that we can fix everything if we wanted to. That even ended when I was 10 and had all my kittens dye in my hands from pneumonia.

Did you know by the time a female cat reaches seven years old, she can produce 43,000 kittens in that lifespan age range?? I don't want to think cats lives are less valuable just like any other animal that walks this earth. To me, a life, is a life.

Has anyone ever had experinces being disappointment in a similar way. Please share them or your thoughts of my situation today.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[turnbackhelly]

Did you know by the time a female cat reaches seven years old, she can produce 43,000 kittens in that lifespan age range??

I'm sorry that I don't (at the moment) have enough time to comment on your entire post, but I was just wondering where you heard/read this. Even if a female cat produced 6 kittens with every litter, she would need to have over 1,000 litters per year for this to work out (which is clearly impossible). I was just wondering...

 

[Trilt]

I'm sorry that I don't (at the moment) have enough time to comment on your entire post, but I was just wondering where you heard/read this. Even if a female cat produced 6 kittens with every litter, she would need to have over 1,000 litters per year for this to work out. I was just wondering...

Pretty sure we're going... 1 cat has six kittens, each of six kittens has six kittens, each of 36 kittens has six kittens, etc.

 

[HopefulAg]

Yah it's not that the original mother herself produces that many, it's that she has kittens, those kittens grow up, they have kittens, those kittens grow up, and so on.



To answer the question: I would think that such a situation would give you more drive to be a vet. How else are you going to fix such issues later on down the road?

And as to why the vet didn't want to put back together the intestines (fix humpty dumpty), it comes down to cost. One of them should've euthanized the cat (and even then, it's not really their clinic. The vet who usually works for the shelter should've been the one to come out) but you can't expect them to come out and fix the cat back to complete health when there's no obvious payer. It's sad but that's the way it is.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I will get back to you where I read it it was on a some paper at work. but yeah a cat has kittens then kittens have thier kittens and that is where the number is coming room.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

Yah it's not that the original mother herself produces that many, it's that she has kittens, those kittens grow up, they have kittens, those kittens grow up, and so on.



To answer the question: I would think that such a situation would give you more drive to be a vet. How else are you going to fix such issues later on down the road?

And as to why the vet didn't want to put back together the intestines (fix humpty dumpty), it comes down to cost. One of them should've euthanized the cat (and even then, it's not really their clinic. The vet who usually works for the shelter should've been the one to come out) but you can't expect them to come out and fix the cat back to complete health when there's no obvious payer. It's sad but that's the way it is.

Our vet left to a bigger shelter. He only comes in once a week until we get someone else for good. It was just hours upon hours of waiting and not doing anything much to keep the kitten happier?

I just wish her life was more important instead of looking at all the troubles with trying to put her back together again. There is something called colectomy and why couldn't we have thought to do that even..

This situation drives me to be a vet yes, but also it turns me off because of how it was handled. I shouldn't let this one situation turn me off so much I know that, but its hard when money money moeny is our number one thoughts. I guess that is one reason some vets go into shelter med because of how they feel.

ugh I did make lots of spelling errors 😉

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I just can't stop thinking about what happened today. I am still sad too.

 

[DVMDream]

I am sorry that you had to sit there with the kitten while it suffered. Honestly, it should have been humanely euthanized, but that stuff is controlled and usually locked up and only available to a veterinarian so it may not have been that no one wanted to do something but that they couldn't do something. As far as pain meds; I have been in a situation where an animal was obviously in shock and in pain and I was told that pain meds could not be administered until the animal was stable because it could put them into shock even more; also quite a few of the emergency fast acting pain meds are also controlled and would need a veterinarian to get them out of a locked up area. I understand it is heart-breaking and if this had been an emergency clinic with an owner willing to pay for life-saving surgery (if that was even a possibility) the outcome may have been different, but in a shelter setting the frame of mind is: spend a few hundred dollars and save 1 animal or spend that same amount of money and save 10-15 animals; there is definitely a "herd health" mentality and IMO that is the way it should be in that situation.

I have been in the same position. We had a dog that was hit by a car at the vet clinic; the owner was willing to pay anything. Unfortunately the vet did no x-rays and told me to set an IV catheter with fluids and to clean the dog. I was struggling to get an IV catheter in the dog, so he gave it some SQ fluids and then told me not to worry about the IV catheter and just clean the dog up. He then left to do something else. I kept trying to get an IV catheter set on the dog, but I just couldn't and the dog passed away. I felt like if there had been more attention paid to the dog and x-rays had been taken; injuries found, etc. that the dog MAY have stood a chance. But, there is still a great chance that the dog was beyond saving. So, maybe the best thing that could have happened did. It is hard when any animal dies, but sometimes you have to believe that it was for the best. That is really the only way to continue on and keep working the job. Also, focus on the positive things that happen (usually there are more of these than there are the negatives).

Sorry, you had to go throught that, but there could have been other reasons why nothing was done that just may not be as obvious right away. Just try to keep your head up and remember that you WERE there and you WERE trying to keep her calm and give her as much LOVE as possible while she was hurting. And even though the ending may not have been what you wanted, in the end it was the best and YOU did the BEST that YOU could.

 

[der2002]

ugh I did make lots of spelling errors 😉

I realize that this experience has affected you deeply and that you probably wrote your original post in emotional distress. All things considered, correct spelling and grammar is secondary to the gravity of your post and you definitely don't need to apologize 🙂 I hope that if you decide to go into vet med (and shelter med, specifically) that this experience only makes you strive to be a better vet.

However, without sounding like some evil grammarian...the title of this thread just slays me: "veterinary" not "vetinary"

 

[sunshinevet]

Our vet left to a bigger shelter. He only comes in once a week until we get someone else for good. It was just hours upon hours of waiting and not doing anything much to keep the kitten happier?

I just wish her life was more important instead of looking at all the troubles with trying to put her back together again. There is something called colectomy and why couldn't we have thought to do that even..

This situation drives me to be a vet yes, but also it turns me off because of how it was handled. I shouldn't let this one situation turn me off so much I know that, but its hard when money money moeny is our number one thoughts. I guess that is one reason some vets go into shelter med because of how they feel.

ugh I did make lots of spelling errors 😉

Unfortunately, shelter med is, and NEEDS to be, a herd health situation. Its just not fair to so many other animals for a large sum of money to be spent on one - because you are literally sacrificing one life to save many. Its why some shelters (not all) immediately euthanase any cats with cat flu - they just can't afford to have it spread like wildfire through their shelter. Since you have been working there since january, I am surprised that this is the first time issues like this have come up.

As for the actual viability of surgery, well... they could have done an enterectomy, sure. But the likelyhood of the surgery actually working and not having adverse affects in such a small, young kitten, is actually extremely low. To be honest, as someone who has worked in referral practice and seen these kind of surgeries done on paediatric patients, we prefer not to - they just don't heal as well, and if those sutures in the intestines don't heal well, that kitten is going to die. Infection is also far harder in really young patients (I'm assuming we're talking >4mths here, just because its shelter, and you said kitten...) as their immune systems just aren't up to the challenge. I know it seems really horrible, but what happened was probably the best outcome in a terrible circumstance.

 

[168135]

Is the use of euthasol controlled in certain states and not in others or something?

A couple years ago, one of the shelter employees told me that a kitten came in whose eye was hanging out of his socket. The kitten was in no pain and didn't seem to realize that he eye was hanging out. The shelter had three choices: take the cat to the vet, which would cost a ton of money that the shelter didn't have, put the eye back in themselves which is illegal (nobody there is allowed to do it because they weren't vets) and dangerous (could cause infection), or put the kitten to sleep. Obviously, they had to put the kitten to sleep and she purred the entire time. They made their decision as soon as they saw her injury and not hours later. The shelter worker, who has worked there for years, was torn up over the situation. She wished there was something she could do and she had tears in her eyes when she told us the story.

Luckily, not all shelters run that way. I'd be upset if I was involved in your situation. Did you ask them if there was a paticular reason for why the kitten wasn't euthanized as soon as they found out they couldn't get a vet?

 

[Minnerbelle]

just remember that not all shelters operate that way, and furthermore, shelter med itself is very different from other sectors of vet med so definitely don't let that deter you from vet med.

that being said, you've just realized that this particular shelter for some reason (some shelters have a long chain of command when it comes to euthanasia that is very inefficient; not prepared for disaster/emergency; etc...) was not able to provide speedy decision/relief for this kitten. question is, what if anything can you do about it (now and in the future), and are you willing to do those things? walking away really won't help or hurt the situation, and know there's no shame in doing so. whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that you should never feel guilty or feel that you didn't do enough. secondary post traumatic stress is a very real thing, and you should always be aware of that.

 

[bunnity]

Euthasol is treated as a controlled substance at my shelter. However, there are techs with access to the room if needed - but this is a huge shelter with a lot of resources.

To the OP, I'm sorry you had to watch that. There isn't really anything but time and repeated exposure that makes it any easier, and even then it's not easy. It sounds like there are two separate issues here: how much medical care can we reasonably give to a shelter animal, and how situations involving suffering are handled. To me the first issue is usually more set in stone for a given shelter; the second can and should be improved. It does sound like things could have been handled better by the shelter. It may help to remember that shelters are often giant inefficient systems (in my adoption counseling job I had 5 bosses) and that they are usually run by a conglomeration of people with a surplus of opinion and a shortage of veterinary knowledge. So this may have been a design flaw more than the fault of any particular person; not that change isn't necessary, but everyone involved was probably doing their best.

I know it sucks that money is a consideration, but it's always going to be. If you have $500 to spend on medical care that week, are you going to vaccinate and spay 30 cats, or do a risky surgery on one? (and those numbers were made up, but you get the idea).

Take care of yourself, take a break if you need to, talk about it if you need to, and if you feel that you are up to it, start working on how you can create positive change. A lot of times the "good ones" burn out at shelters, so it may be something where you need to pace yourself and try to keep the emotional investment at a manageable level. And by the way, I can say all this to you, but I'm a complete sucker for behavior cases and I always get attached to the dogs I shouldn't get attached to (and heartbroken at the outcome half the time). So it's not easy, but to me it is worth it.

 

[sumstorm]

There is something called colectomy and why couldn't we have thought to do that even..

This situation drives me to be a vet yes, but also it turns me off because of how it was handled. I shouldn't let this one situation turn me off so much I know that, but its hard when money money moeny is our number one thoughts. I guess that is one reason some vets go into shelter med because of how they feel.

ugh I did make lots of spelling errors

Money is always going to be an issue. I was challenged, a long time ago, on why I had pets that I feed despite human children starving. It is a valid question. It helped me realize animals are something we choose to have in our lives. A luxury. So, since money is a reality, and limited, the easiest way for me to understand the decisions to not do extreme rescues (whether that is horrific trauma, aggressive behavior, etc), when I am faced with the decision, I ask myself ‘which animals would I opt to select for euthanasia instead of this animal? How many would it be to cover the cost?

You mentioned this being Memorial day. It sounds like that may have had a lot to do with the situation. As a vet, you will need to take time for yourself, for your family, and that may mean you aren’t always available. It isn’t fair to expected every individual to sacrifice every moment of their life to their calling; and in professions like this, doing so will result in compassion fatigue and burn out. My biggest question would be ‘why wasn’t the kitten taken to an E-clinic for euthanasia?’ If euthanasia couldn’t be performed at the shelter for whatever reason, that would seem to be the solution if a vet isn’t available to come in.

Even if the kitten was taken to an emergency clinic, she likely wouldn’t have gone directly into surgery, even if the funds were available to perform a surgery. In most situations, a patient needs to be stabilized before surgery or their chances of survival will be drastically decreased. A shocky, young kitten isn’t a good surgical candidate.

Discuss with the shelter leadership why the kitten wasn’t taken to a place for euthanasia if relief couldn’t have been provided. The rest is a sad reality in a consumer based society, but in a non-consumer based society, where animals aren’t a privilege and luxury, the care may be even more limited. I am sorry you are having to struggle with this.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

Unfortunately, shelter med is, and NEEDS to be, a herd health situation. Its just not fair to so many other animals for a large sum of money to be spent on one - because you are literally sacrificing one life to save many. Its why some shelters (not all) immediately euthanase any cats with cat flu - they just can't afford to have it spread like wildfire through their shelter. Since you have been working there since january, I am surprised that this is the first time issues like this have come up.

As for the actual viability of surgery, well... they could have done an enterectomy, sure. But the likelyhood of the surgery actually working and not having adverse affects in such a small, young kitten, is actually extremely low. To be honest, as someone who has worked in referral practice and seen these kind of surgeries done on paediatric patients, we prefer not to - they just don't heal as well, and if those sutures in the intestines don't heal well, that kitten is going to die. Infection is also far harder in really young patients (I'm assuming we're talking >4mths here, just because its shelter, and you said kitten...) as their immune systems just aren't up to the challenge. I know it seems really horrible, but what happened was probably the best outcome in a terrible circumstance.

There are so many variables to what could have happened and did not happen.. This situation may have not greatly impacted me if a vet came in asap. I feel like we could of did more.

I know what your saying, little kittens or any baby animals are going to be sick more until they reach a age where their body knows x to fight off. Right now, we have about 30 little kittens under two pounds that have all sorts of things!!

This isn't the first time a issue has come up, but the first that I was in it completely with this kind of situation. We had parvo puppies with all of our staff having different opinions to put them down or not. Another hard situation I faced, was a foster bringing in a few week old tiny kittens that were basically dead because the foster didn't administer fluids like she was told to. They could of died for whatever reason or failure to thrive without momma cat? That was a tough one too, because it was early in the am with me and just a few others on staff, so I had to talk to her to make her feel better let alone hurry up to the clinic and get someone to help administer fluids to the surviving kittens.

But what happened to trying though.. Trying everything we could do or to at least make a animal comfortable before passing. I am not a vet so I don't know all the dos and don'ts for situations, but I wish we could of done more. I was thankful that the clinic tech came in asap to take over because no one was there monday on a holiday but the assistant in ICU which didn't know what she could do really either. All we knew was to stay with her and make sure she didn't damage her organs. I guess all in all, we did our best with the circumstances we had and such is life. I have some real memorable touching impacting experiences that I have been a part of. I need to move on knowing I can get animals good homes especially some of the tough ones and continue learning with acceptance. I have had positive experiences since. 🙂

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I am sorry that you had to sit there with the kitten while it suffered. Honestly, it should have been humanely euthanized, but that stuff is controlled and usually locked up and only available to a veterinarian so it may not have been that no one wanted to do something but that they couldn't do something. As far as pain meds; I have been in a situation where an animal was obviously in shock and in pain and I was told that pain meds could not be administered until the animal was stable because it could put them into shock even more; also quite a few of the emergency fast acting pain meds are also controlled and would need a veterinarian to get them out of a locked up area. I understand it is heart-breaking and if this had been an emergency clinic with an owner willing to pay for life-saving surgery (if that was even a possibility) the outcome may have been different, but in a shelter setting the frame of mind is: spend a few hundred dollars and save 1 animal or spend that same amount of money and save 10-15 animals; there is definitely a "herd health" mentality and IMO that is the way it should be in that situation.

I have been in the same position. We had a dog that was hit by a car at the vet clinic; the owner was willing to pay anything. Unfortunately the vet did no x-rays and told me to set an IV catheter with fluids and to clean the dog. I was struggling to get an IV catheter in the dog, so he gave it some SQ fluids and then told me not to worry about the IV catheter and just clean the dog up. He then left to do something else. I kept trying to get an IV catheter set on the dog, but I just couldn't and the dog passed away. I felt like if there had been more attention paid to the dog and x-rays had been taken; injuries found, etc. that the dog MAY have stood a chance. But, there is still a great chance that the dog was beyond saving. So, maybe the best thing that could have happened did. It is hard when any animal dies, but sometimes you have to believe that it was for the best. That is really the only way to continue on and keep working the job. Also, focus on the positive things that happen (usually there are more of these than there are the negatives).

Sorry, you had to go throught that, but there could have been other reasons why nothing was done that just may not be as obvious right away. Just try to keep your head up and remember that you WERE there and you WERE trying to keep her calm and give her as much LOVE as possible while she was hurting. And even though the ending may not have been what you wanted, in the end it was the best and YOU did the BEST that YOU could.

Thank you for sharing your story. I really appreciated that and your kind words that we did everything we could for what we had.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

Is the use of euthasol controlled in certain states and not in others or something?

A couple years ago, one of the shelter employees told me that a kitten came in whose eye was hanging out of his socket. The kitten was in no pain and didn't seem to realize that he eye was hanging out. The shelter had three choices: take the cat to the vet, which would cost a ton of money that the shelter didn't have, put the eye back in themselves which is illegal (nobody there is allowed to do it because they weren't vets) and dangerous (could cause infection), or put the kitten to sleep. Obviously, they had to put the kitten to sleep and she purred the entire time. They made their decision as soon as they saw her injury and not hours later. The shelter worker, who has worked there for years, was torn up over the situation. She wished there was something she could do and she had tears in her eyes when she told us the story.

Luckily, not all shelters run that way. I'd be upset if I was involved in your situation. Did you ask them if there was a paticular reason for why the kitten wasn't euthanized as soon as they found out they couldn't get a vet?

The medicine to put animals asleep had to be locked up. The tech that came in (exp 25 plus yrs for a shot and spay neuter clinic), was even in such distress she even told me the wrong doctors name that was coming in when I asked. It was such a terrifying thing because it looked like she could of been fixed but needed a vet so badly to fix her. We really thought we could get her fixed if a vet came in asap. She died a few mins before the vet made it in. She held on for 3 hrs since I got to work so its been longer then that even. The worst part about this is seeing her flip out in pain and we didn't do anything because no one has a DVM degree????

 

[WildlifeSaver]

Euthasol is treated as a controlled substance at my shelter. However, there are techs with access to the room if needed - but this is a huge shelter with a lot of resources.

To the OP, I'm sorry you had to watch that. There isn't really anything but time and repeated exposure that makes it any easier, and even then it's not easy. It sounds like there are two separate issues here: how much medical care can we reasonably give to a shelter animal, and how situations involving suffering are handled. To me the first issue is usually more set in stone for a given shelter; the second can and should be improved. It does sound like things could have been handled better by the shelter. It may help to remember that shelters are often giant inefficient systems (in my adoption counseling job I had 5 bosses) and that they are usually run by a conglomeration of people with a surplus of opinion and a shortage of veterinary knowledge. So this may have been a design flaw more than the fault of any particular person; not that change isn't necessary, but everyone involved was probably doing their best.

I know it sucks that money is a consideration, but it's always going to be. If you have $500 to spend on medical care that week, are you going to vaccinate and spay 30 cats, or do a risky surgery on one? (and those numbers were made up, but you get the idea).

Take care of yourself, take a break if you need to, talk about it if you need to, and if you feel that you are up to it, start working on how you can create positive change. A lot of times the "good ones" burn out at shelters, so it may be something where you need to pace yourself and try to keep the emotional investment at a manageable level. And by the way, I can say all this to you, but I'm a complete sucker for behavior cases and I always get attached to the dogs I shouldn't get attached to (and heartbroken at the outcome half the time). So it's not easy, but to me it is worth it.

I never really asked a shelter vet before, but sometimes in situations like these, do vets do things for free because they want to? After all, this could of been this vets fault for not suturing her up well maybe? That is probably the slimmest chance then her being itchy and trying to play with it or her siblings playing too hard with her and it came open (they usually have a little puff of lose skin at the sit) or perhaps a infection that swelled the area to come apart.

And thanks a lot I will keep that in mind about pacing myself and such 🙂. Working in a shelter is not for everyone. I still have cats from jan that have been there longer then when I started. It still makes me emotional at times, but I put my head up and know they will have their day one day and I could help make that happen. I am trying my hardest to get them out to good homes that they really deserve!

 

[sunshinevet]

The medicine to put animals asleep had to be locked up. The tech that came in (exp 25 plus yrs for a shot and spay neuter clinic), was even in such distress she even told me the wrong doctors name that was coming in when I asked. It was such a terrifying thing because it looked like she could of been fixed but needed a vet so badly to fix her. We really thought we could get her fixed if a vet came in asap. She died a few mins before the vet made it in. She held on for 3 hrs since I got to work so its been longer then that even. The worst part about this is seeing her flip out in pain and we didn't do anything because no one has a DVM degree????

To be honest - and I said this earlier - the likelihood that anything could have actually been done to save her, is low. At best, it would probably just be prolonging her pain. And whatsmore, its really not fair to other animals that shelter needs to take care of, to spend a large sum of money trying to fix an animal that is highly unlikely to benefit from it. And you have to carefully consider how every single dollar is spent. Doing surgery on that kitten would not have been a wise use of money.

As far as the drugs are concerned - I understand that it absolutely SUCKS to watch animals suffer. For me, there are few things worse in the world, than to watch animals suffer. But the use of controlled substances is a big area of concern for the veterinary profession, including euthansia solution (which is a controlled substance here, kept in safes only accessible by vets). They can't just let nurses and volunteers potentially have free access to such drugs, because its way to difficult to account for who has access to them. Inappropriate storage and administration of such drugs by unauthorised individuals is a serious offence - if I did it and was caught here, I would be kicked out of vet school and probably unable to ever gain entrance again. Clinics and vets can lose licenses. I know it completely SUCKS, but unfortunately in this kind of situation, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Sorry if I seem a little bit harsh on you. But in this thread, we have sympathised, and offered explainations and advice. But you seem to be ignoring it all and circling over the same issues, instead of actually trying to understand why certain things may have happened and the very good reasons for such protocols. There ARE good reasons shelters don't perform complex, involved surgery on such young, probably unviable kittens. There ARE good reasons that controlled drugs are just that. But you don't really seem willing to try and understand that.

 

[sunshinevet]

After all, this could of been this vets fault for not suturing her up well maybe?

The most likely reason is that she self traumatised and pulled them out herself. In 5 years I've never seen an entire row of sutures come undone because of poor suturing technique.

 

[NStarz]

Shelters are tough. It depends on the leadership, really (the executive director). We've recently switched to a different ED and a lot of changes have been occurring. Sometimes it just helps to have a new face with fresh ideas. I think our other ED was a bit complacent (she was there for 20 something years).

I agree that cats are overlooked a lot. We have enrichment programs for the dogs (CGC classes, agility, lots of daily walks/training by volunteers, behavior mod if necessary, etc.) but very few for the cats. Our cats enclosures are great now (trees, etc, for climbing) but we have cats that have been there over 2 years that still haven't been adopted. It's really sad. Unfortunately, cats don't show stress like dogs do, so they often get overlooked if they are just "managing" the shelter environment. We do have socializers come in, but with over 200 cats in the shelter at any one time, it gets difficult to make sure each one is happy and enriched at any one time. Part of the problem is kitten season where we get 100s of kittens coming into the shelter and they get adopted out first. So the cats that have been languishing in the shelter from last kitten season and are not ~1 year old don't get adopted. Then they are 2 years old. Then 3. We, personally need to do better promotion for our cats, I think. TNR is also necessary (natural attrition of the cat population = no more kittens = older cats adopted.)

Sorry, that was kind of tangential.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

Money is always going to be an issue. I was challenged, a long time ago, on why I had pets that I feed despite human children starving. It is a valid question. It helped me realize animals are something we choose to have in our lives. A luxury. So, since money is a reality, and limited, the easiest way for me to understand the decisions to not do extreme rescues (whether that is horrific trauma, aggressive behavior, etc), when I am faced with the decision, I ask myself ‘which animals would I opt to select for euthanasia instead of this animal? How many would it be to cover the cost?

You mentioned this being Memorial day. It sounds like that may have had a lot to do with the situation. As a vet, you will need to take time for yourself, for your family, and that may mean you aren’t always available. It isn’t fair to expected every individual to sacrifice every moment of their life to their calling; and in professions like this, doing so will result in compassion fatigue and burn out. My biggest question would be ‘why wasn’t the kitten taken to an E-clinic for euthanasia?’ If euthanasia couldn’t be performed at the shelter for whatever reason, that would seem to be the solution if a vet isn’t available to come in.

Even if the kitten was taken to an emergency clinic, she likely wouldn’t have gone directly into surgery, even if the funds were available to perform a surgery. In most situations, a patient needs to be stabilized before surgery or their chances of survival will be drastically decreased. A shocky, young kitten isn’t a good surgical candidate.

Discuss with the shelter leadership why the kitten wasn’t taken to a place for euthanasia if relief couldn’t have been provided. The rest is a sad reality in a consumer based society, but in a non-consumer based society, where animals aren’t a privilege and luxury, the care may be even more limited. I am sorry you are having to struggle with this.

I plan on talking to some of the staff and even the vet too about this to further understand our shelter and what if the vet got there sooner before she went into this ultra shock state... I agree with you, that the kitten should of been put down especially after displaying the freak out she did.

There are programs available to people that do not have a lot of money for surgeries or such. My cat, leo, was shot and he needed to get his leg amputated and I applied for it. I was accepted only because I had the paperwork that I took care of him with all his needs proir to this situation. For a shelter animal, I have no clue of discounts.

Not speaking about the kitten situation-I wish animals weren't a luxury sumstorm. Some animals became domesticated because of people. We altered evolution for them. Its humans responsibility to take care of what we have especially since we change or ruin their enviroment because we are the most successful animals on this planet.

thank you everyone for your support and letting me vent here

 

[WildlifeSaver]

To be honest - and I said this earlier - the likelihood that anything could have actually been done to save her, is low. At best, it would probably just be prolonging her pain. And whatsmore, its really not fair to other animals that shelter needs to take care of, to spend a large sum of money trying to fix an animal that is highly unlikely to benefit from it. And you have to carefully consider how every single dollar is spent. Doing surgery on that kitten would not have been a wise use of money.

As far as the drugs are concerned - I understand that it absolutely SUCKS to watch animals suffer. For me, there are few things worse in the world, than to watch animals suffer. But the use of controlled substances is a big area of concern for the veterinary profession, including euthansia solution (which is a controlled substance here, kept in safes only accessible by vets). They can't just let nurses and volunteers potentially have free access to such drugs, because its way to difficult to account for who has access to them. Inappropriate storage and administration of such drugs by unauthorised individuals is a serious offence - if I did it and was caught here, I would be kicked out of vet school and probably unable to ever gain entrance again. Clinics and vets can lose licenses. I know it completely SUCKS, but unfortunately in this kind of situation, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Sorry if I seem a little bit harsh on you. But in this thread, we have sympathised, and offered explainations and advice. But you seem to be ignoring it all and circling over the same issues, instead of actually trying to understand why certain things may have happened and the very good reasons for such protocols. There ARE good reasons shelters don't perform complex, involved surgery on such young, probably unviable kittens. There ARE good reasons that controlled drugs are just that. But you don't really seem willing to try and understand that.

I understand this and you can be harsh if you want. I am also a pharmacy tech as well for one of my jobs. Certain things are done for reasons. A pharmacist doesn't let techs open the safe for narcotics. Why don't they do this? Its the LAW. Doctors can lose their licenses for letting a tech give a controlled substance to a animal in certain states. I do not know all the laws in NJ vet practice or tech levels for what you are allowed to do and not. A VET should of came IN sometime and not hours later. As a vet, you should know that a animal will die before 7pm if you find a animal at 7am like this. If you are calling vets and they don't want to come in or can't for some reason, our shelter should have something set up for a disaster situation on a holiday with a emergency hospital or some other solution. It is no ones fault here to blame really. When you take oath to be a veterinarian, in it, isn't there something about "the relief of animal suffering" and such. I am not saying vets should just come in for every emergency and like sumstorm said they have a life too and can get burned out. This vet that came in did the spay surgery. In my opinion he came in because he felt like it was his duty not only as a vet, but because he could have missed something and he cared.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

The most likely reason is that she self traumatised and pulled them out herself. In 5 years I've never seen an entire row of sutures come undone because of poor suturing technique.

I really doubt it was the suture technique too

 

[WildlifeSaver]

Shelters are tough. It depends on the leadership, really (the executive director). We've recently switched to a different ED and a lot of changes have been occurring. Sometimes it just helps to have a new face with fresh ideas. I think our other ED was a bit complacent (she was there for 20 something years).

I agree that cats are overlooked a lot. We have enrichment programs for the dogs (CGC classes, agility, lots of daily walks/training by volunteers, behavior mod if necessary, etc.) but very few for the cats. Our cats enclosures are great now (trees, etc, for climbing) but we have cats that have been there over 2 years that still haven't been adopted. It's really sad. Unfortunately, cats don't show stress like dogs do, so they often get overlooked if they are just "managing" the shelter environment. We do have socializers come in, but with over 200 cats in the shelter at any one time, it gets difficult to make sure each one is happy and enriched at any one time. Part of the problem is kitten season where we get 100s of kittens coming into the shelter and they get adopted out first. So the cats that have been languishing in the shelter from last kitten season and are not ~1 year old don't get adopted. Then they are 2 years old. Then 3. We, personally need to do better promotion for our cats, I think. TNR is also necessary (natural attrition of the cat population = no more kittens = older cats adopted.)

Sorry, that was kind of tangential.

Cats really do get overlooked. We do not have any dogs at our shelter that have been there for over 2 months. They get adopted out fast. When it comes down to relay on donations to feed the cats, we get soo much dog food. We actually ran out a few times of dry and wet cat food at our shelter ha. People like dogs more maybe.

We started a enrichment programs a few months ago and its great some of the cats love the stuff. I am glad we can do something little to make them happy. I am seeing your point too, all the kittens are going first and that one cat with the past kidney stone problem with a special diet will sit in a cage longer now most likely or that cat that hates its small cage, so it hates people. We had/have a big cat room with about six cats we put in there. What a dramatic change to see a cat acting out in its small box cage to a roomy area. You wouldn't know it was the same cat.

As for the managers go, we have too many bosses. I have said a few things I didn't agree with and it comes out as me being "disrespectful". Everyone has their own opinions about things. The hard part is accepting them to leave it to yourself, or sometimes being stupid by being overly opinionated (like me). Just gotta know when to use or how to use your opinions in manner that is ok! I think we need new fresh ideas in here though. Our managers try and do good jobs too, but I always don't agree with them.

 

[that redhead]

Unfortunately, cost is frequently a deciding factor in whether or not to attempt to save an animal life. However, I believe some sort of pain relief should have been applied or the kitten should have been euthanized very quickly.

For me, situations like these (as well as other sad situations that animals are in too commonly) are what drives me even harder to become a veterinarian.

 

[August West]

I wish cities allocated more money to trap-neuter-release programs. I even thought that we could make it into a game for college students to get drunk and go out at night to trap strays. Kidding, of course. Sort of... 🙁

 

[sumstorm]

There are programs available to people that do not have a lot of money for surgeries or such. My cat, leo, was shot and he needed to get his leg amputated and I applied for it. I was accepted only because I had the paperwork that I took care of him with all his needs proir to this situation. For a shelter animal, I have no clue of discounts.

big difference between an owned animal and an unowned animal. Even with surgery, the kitten may not have survived. Or, if the intestines were shortened, it may have had digestion/elimination issues that made it difficult to house (thus difficult to adopt out/at risk of surrender/abandonment.)

You asked if vets could do surgery for free; the answer is yes and no. Yes, they could give their time away for free, but to perform surgery costs money for anesthesia, suture, drugs, etc…not to mention space and equipment. Vets are asked to give away both services and goods all the time. Depending on the area, I would say at least once a month if not multiple times a day. Are you really rich enough, set up for the rest of your life, that you personally can afford to work for free for every case where money becomes an issue? If not, why would you expect anyone else to? Most vets do actually contribute a lot, but they may do it quietly. Being known as the vet that will take a charity case can be a really good way to get lots of charity cases on your doorstep. If I end up in private practice, I hope to set up a non-profit to provide assistance for those that need it. I would actually like to model it after Habitat for Humanities model; you get the house, but you also get the mortgage, which helps pay for the next house. In this case, a client that needs help gets it, but agrees to repay over time in order to help the next one…but I want to have control over that, not have it dictated by an outside organization.

Not speaking about the kitten situation-I wish animals weren't a luxury sumstorm. Some animals became domesticated because of people. We altered evolution for them. Its humans responsibility to take care of what we have especially since we change or ruin their enviroment because we are the most successful animals on this planet.

The reality is that most of us wish they weren’t treated without regard. If that was the case, there wouldn’t be a need for shelters. However, it isn’t my personal responsibility to take care of my neighbors irresponsibility. I can do my best to help out within my own limits….but that doesn’t mean I am obligated to help when they continue to harm themselves. I feel that way whether it is a person that damages themselves, a client that doesn’t follow directions, or a shelter that doesn’t operate within my own standards. Each of us has to live with ourselves; you have to do what is best for you. Maybe that is finding a different shelter to work with, maybe that is accepting that folks are doing the best they can, and even if it isn’t good enough, there isn’t more they can give, or maybe it is changing your role in connection to the situation. Also, another reality is that every one of us, just by choosing to live any way other than basic subsistence, uses animals as a luxury; I am pretty sure where you live, drive, and work all were once the habitats of animals, which we have decided are a luxury for those animals…and unnecessary one in the face of our own comfort. Not saying it is right or wrong to do so….. but that I have met very few individuals who can honestly say they have done everything they can in every way they can to not use or discard animals. All you can do is your best, and to that end, if you aren’t able to offer up the finances to solve the issue, why expect anyone else to, vet or otherwise?

 

[StartingoverVet]

Well said sumstorm.

 

[heylodeb]

So I'm going to kind of play a different fiddle - as for the OP and reconsidering being a vet - that's not exactely a bad thing!

Have you considered instead of vet med doing straight forward wildlife rehabilitation (owning a facility/running it/working with vets)? The point of getting experience is to figure out if being a vet is right for you - and after seeing that these types of things and these types of decisions have to be made on a daily basis - it's ok to be doubting whether it is right for you.

Even if you want to be the vet who handles things differently, you will still have to survive many years in vet school and starting out your practice being put into situations such as this one - OR even simpler situations such as an owner who is not willing to medicate an animal who could be "fixed" and asks for humane euthanasia. This is a very common situation. Are you sure you are ok with this emotionally/morally/ethically?

I think your compassion will cause you to be an excellent vet in difficult situations such as this one - but just thought I'd play a bit of "devil's advocate" role...

I mean no harm - just curious if you've considered other options!

 

[JustCats]

I wish I had time to write a more eloquent post, but I've got a final in half an hour so a thoughtful reply will have to wait. What WildlifeSaver saw was a case of animal cruelty. That is not normal or accepted in shelter medicine. The fact that there was no protocol in place to humanely euthanize a suffering animal means this shelter is poorly managed.

Don't reconsider a career in vet med, WildlifeSaver. We need people with your compassion. This was not normal. I'm glad someone witnessed it who had the sense to be outraged and disturbed. I hope you'll report it and advocate for change.

 

[Pomona2006]

Yeah - wow! I think some people must really not understand what shelters are all about. That kitten would have undoubtedly not been allowed to suffer like that in the shelter I worked in.

I agree with JustCats. I wish I, too, had more time to devote to a decent reply to this so as to clear up some grave misunderstandings about shelter medicine that are evinced in this thread, but am also studying for finals. Perhaps I can revisit this when all these silly exams are over and done with...

 

[shelterURIgirl]

There seems to be confusion on what the euthanasia laws are.

To find the euthanasia laws for each state, please see this link: http://www.americanhumane.org/assets/docs/advocacy/ADV-laws-state-euthanasia.pdf

I assume you are in New Jersey, so I looked them up for you. They can be found at
http://www.nj.gov/health/cd/documents/njac_823a.pdf

They clearly state that "All persons administering animal euthanasia shall be a New Jersey licensed veterinarian or be certified by a licensed veterinarian in the acceptable euthanasia technique or techniques used at the facility, as delineated in (c) above, in compliance with N.J.A.C. 8:65. Such documentation shall state the euthanasia substances and techniques certified for use therewith, shall be signed by the certifying veterinarian, and shall be kept on file at the facility for inspection by State or local health authorities."

The shelters I work with in California all have training that they require for their technicians, and they are all certified to handle euthanasia solution and administer it, even in the absence of the veterinarian. From what I read above, New Jersey is similar, but the shelter in question did not have anyone around who was certified to euthanize. This is something the shelter needs to change.

I would suggest that you bring this up to your supervisor at this shelter. It sounds like this shelter is really suffering from some poor management practices, so maybe some changes need to be made. I am inferrring this from a few of your statements, for example:

I know what your saying, little kittens or any baby animals are going to be sick more until they reach a age where their body knows x to fight off. Right now, we have about 30 little kittens under two pounds that have all sorts of things!!

This is unacceptable!! Kittens are perfectly capable of staying disease free, just because they are more susceptible to a few diseases does not mean it is acceptable to allow them to become and remain sick.

Please recommend that your shelter management visit the shelter medicine portal from the UC Davis website. Maybe you could print a few of the articles that discuss proper management, and bring them to your shelter. Shelter medicine portal: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/about/welcome.php

Some articles that you need to read:
Vaccination guidelines/recommendations for shelters (you should be vaccinating on intake!!): http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_vaccination.shtml
Feline upper respiratory infections in shelters: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_feline_upper_res.shtml#top3
Panleuk: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_panleukopenia.shtml

I hope good things come from this situation. There is no reason why that kitten should of been allowed to suffer like that.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I agree with JustCats. I wish I, too, had more time to devote to a decent reply to this so as to clear up some grave misunderstandings about shelter medicine that are evinced in this thread

The way I was following this thread, I didn't see it as a discussion about shelter med so much as a discussion about a shoddy shelter with a lack of/disregard for vet med, which takes advantage of local vets by imposing on their goodwill without having a formal agreement/protocol with them. Two diff beasts IMHO.

I don't think anyone here thinks that the kitten should have suffered the way she did, nor does anyone think that that's a normal practice at shelters (at least places where the term "shelter med" actually means something). I think the problem is that there are soooooo many rescues/"shelters" out there that are run entirely based on the philosophies of people with 0 knowledge of vet med, and a lot of the time, there isn't too much you can do about it. I guess in this case, the OP can try and report the place with a corroborating statement from the vet that finally came in or something... but even then, I'm not sure if it'll do much. I've been at a few with pretty heavy misconducts, but local animal control knew about their practices already, and because there was nowhere else for the animals to go, they never did a damn thing. They were glad there was somewhere to dump the animals. What can you do in cases like that? Really, this is something that I've been thinking long and hard about, so if you have an answer I'm all ears! I wish I could have an answer that I feel satisfied with, but I just haven't been able to come up with one.

I dunno, maybe I read the OP wrong but depending on the demographics of the location that this cruddy shelter is, what kind of shelter it is, how big it is, and what kind of oversight it has... I don't know how much of shelter med as a concept you can apply to it. Obviously the AAHA accredited shelter I worked at, with 4-5 full time vets would NEVER operate in the way the OP described, but I've been shocked at some of the places out there (some even with great reputations).

 

[shelterURIgirl]

The way I was following this thread, I didn't see it as a discussion about shelter med so much as a discussion about a shoddy shelter with a lack of/disregard for vet med, which takes advantage of local vets by imposing on their goodwill without having a formal agreement/protocol with them. Two diff beasts IMHO.

I understand what you are saying, and I do agree with your assessment. However, I know from SDN experience, that if this situation had taken place at vet's office or a boarding facility, the responses from the people posting would have been different. There would have been more outrage at the lack of preparation and policy for dealing with an emergency situation/suffering animal.

The fact that there wasn't much outrage, and the fact that the scenario of poorly run animal shelters you described above is all too common, these are the reasons why I am pursuing a career as a veterinarian. Hopefully shelter medicine continues to grow within our profession, and hopefully through public outreach and education we can improve conditions of the animal shelters. Okay, I've gotta get back to studying now.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out to WildlifeSaver that its okay to be extremely frustrated, I am frustrated too. Don't let the frustration deter you from pursuing a career where you can have an impact and change things. 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

I think it is fine to be frustrated, but I don't think it is fine to judge others, in this case the vets who assist this rescue. There are alot of things I am frustrated with, but I have to look at my own role first. How do I contribute to the problem and how do I fix it?

My solution? I would have adopted the animal immediately, then taken it to an e-clinic for emergency treatment or euthanasia. I have actually done this in the past to cut through red tape. For any of us to expect others, including current DVMs, to put more up for the care of an animal than we are willing to ourselves doesn't seem reasonable to me. We all have to find the course that works best for us, at this time, but expecting another to do what we aren't able or willing to do just seems off to me. Of course, my opinion is worth what it costs. In a clinic scenario, if AC brought the animal in, no known owner, it would depend on state laws on how I treated it, and the money to do so would still have to come from somewhere.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I think it is fine to be frustrated, but I don't think it is fine to judge others, in this case the vets who assist this rescue. There are alot of things I am frustrated with, but I have to look at my own role first. How do I contribute to the problem and how do I fix it?

My solution? I would have adopted the animal immediately, then taken it to an e-clinic for emergency treatment or euthanasia. I have actually done this in the past to cut through red tape. For any of us to expect others, including current DVMs, to put more up for the care of an animal than we are willing to ourselves doesn't seem reasonable to me. We all have to find the course that works best for us, at this time, but expecting another to do what we aren't able or willing to do just seems off to me. Of course, my opinion is worth what it costs. In a clinic scenario, if AC brought the animal in, no known owner, it would depend on state laws on how I treated it, and the money to do so would still have to come from somewhere.

I wish I took the kitten if I knew everyone would of taken their time on doing something about the kittten. I have a half mind that she could of maybe even survived this if I have. One way or another to put her down or treatment it would have been better then watching her slowly die in such a painful way that I saw for several HOURS. It would of cost me 50 bucks to at least put her to sleep and if I could go back I would have done it no doubt. More situations have risen by the lack of not listening. It just has become one thing after another

Recently, 2 cats were shown to be so ill to the point they had no more will to live, but managment told the vet icu assistant to leave them to live it out and see. Could be right and could be a wrong thing to have done.

A few months ago we had very sick dogs that had parvo. In my opinion, these dogs shouldn't have come into our shelter at all. We took these dogs from another shelter to "help our community". We put many dogs lives at risk by doing this and why is it fair to those dogs that are healthy??

It seems to me that I have too many opinions and shelters are not as easy as you think to make rightful decisions.

I am no longer very happy working at this shelter and contiune to look for a vet office as I speak.

 

[WildlifeSaver]

The way I was following this thread, I didn't see it as a discussion about shelter med so much as a discussion about a shoddy shelter with a lack of/disregard for vet med, which takes advantage of local vets by imposing on their goodwill without having a formal agreement/protocol with them. Two diff beasts IMHO.

I don't think anyone here thinks that the kitten should have suffered the way she did, nor does anyone think that that's a normal practice at shelters (at least places where the term "shelter med" actually means something). I think the problem is that there are soooooo many rescues/"shelters" out there that are run entirely based on the philosophies of people with 0 knowledge of vet med, and a lot of the time, there isn't too much you can do about it. I guess in this case, the OP can try and report the place with a corroborating statement from the vet that finally came in or something... but even then, I'm not sure if it'll do much. I've been at a few with pretty heavy misconducts, but local animal control knew about their practices already, and because there was nowhere else for the animals to go, they never did a damn thing. They were glad there was somewhere to dump the animals. What can you do in cases like that? Really, this is something that I've been thinking long and hard about, so if you have an answer I'm all ears! I wish I could have an answer that I feel satisfied with, but I just haven't been able to come up with one.

I dunno, maybe I read the OP wrong but depending on the demographics of the location that this cruddy shelter is, what kind of shelter it is, how big it is, and what kind of oversight it has... I don't know how much of shelter med as a concept you can apply to it. Obviously the AAHA accredited shelter I worked at, with 4-5 full time vets would NEVER operate in the way the OP described, but I've been shocked at some of the places out there (some even with great reputations).

This discussion is open to all points of views 🙂. No wrong or right answer just opinions alongside my venting when this happened

 

[WildlifeSaver]

There seems to be confusion on what the euthanasia laws are.

To find the euthanasia laws for each state, please see this link: http://www.americanhumane.org/assets/docs/advocacy/ADV-laws-state-euthanasia.pdf

I assume you are in New Jersey, so I looked them up for you. They can be found at
http://www.nj.gov/health/cd/documents/njac_823a.pdf

They clearly state that "All persons administering animal euthanasia shall be a New Jersey licensed veterinarian or be certified by a licensed veterinarian in the acceptable euthanasia technique or techniques used at the facility, as delineated in (c) above, in compliance with N.J.A.C. 8:65. Such documentation shall state the euthanasia substances and techniques certified for use therewith, shall be signed by the certifying veterinarian, and shall be kept on file at the facility for inspection by State or local health authorities."

The shelters I work with in California all have training that they require for their technicians, and they are all certified to handle euthanasia solution and administer it, even in the absence of the veterinarian. From what I read above, New Jersey is similar, but the shelter in question did not have anyone around who was certified to euthanize. This is something the shelter needs to change.

I would suggest that you bring this up to your supervisor at this shelter. It sounds like this shelter is really suffering from some poor management practices, so maybe some changes need to be made. I am inferrring this from a few of your statements, for example:

This is unacceptable!! Kittens are perfectly capable of staying disease free, just because they are more susceptible to a few diseases does not mean it is acceptable to allow them to become and remain sick.

Please recommend that your shelter management visit the shelter medicine portal from the UC Davis website. Maybe you could print a few of the articles that discuss proper management, and bring them to your shelter. Shelter medicine portal: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/about/welcome.php

Some articles that you need to read:
Vaccination guidelines/recommendations for shelters (you should be vaccinating on intake!!): http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_vaccination.shtml
Feline upper respiratory infections in shelters: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_feline_upper_res.shtml#top3
Panleuk: http://www.sheltermedicine.com/portal/is_panleukopenia.shtml

I hope good things come from this situation. There is no reason why that kitten should of been allowed to suffer like that.

I agree regardless of certain days when people are off or holidays, there should be someone on staff at all times who can administer euthanasia when you are running a shelter or if not have to be on call and come in asap. Thank you for your research links! I have been reading them

 

[WildlifeSaver]

I wish I had time to write a more eloquent post, but I've got a final in half an hour so a thoughtful reply will have to wait. What WildlifeSaver saw was a case of animal cruelty. That is not normal or accepted in shelter medicine. The fact that there was no protocol in place to humanely euthanize a suffering animal means this shelter is poorly managed.

Don't reconsider a career in vet med, WildlifeSaver. We need people with your compassion. This was not normal. I'm glad someone witnessed it who had the sense to be outraged and disturbed. I hope you'll report it and advocate for change.

It truly was a witness of cruelty. The person who came in to help out should of been more pro to do something about the kitten then trying to call vets that would come in around 7p when this was 7am. We apparently or there is apparently a emergency line the management gave the icu assistant by text message and gave no more advice then that. I just believe it wasn't organized.