Too many ECs for AADSAS

[uclaDDS101]

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I don't know why I am worrying about this right now, since I am still a second year and have about one and a half years to go before I apply.. But I was looking at the number of entries for the different categories on the application, and I realized that I might not be able to put down all of my dental experience and ECs/CommService!

I am especially concerned about the "dental experience" category. As it turns out, I would fill 9 entries with my current dental activities. However, I just came across 2 really great opportunities:
1. I just attended my orientation to work as a Dental Assistant at a local free clinic.
2. My supervising Oral Surgeon just introduced to a fantastic UCLA Prosthodontist, who will let me shadow and will teach my a variety of lab techniques.
Both of these opportunities seem really great (and long-term), and I guess I can now only do one of them.

I'm leaning towards #2, since I'm already a d assistant at a clinic in Inglewood. Which one would you guys choose?

Is there a way to bypass this application problem so that I can do both? Maybe I can move some dental experience to the "EC" section of the app (which is also getting crowded)?

I would appreciate any feedback from anyone, especially someone who has faced a similar problem when filling out the application.

 

[cybermech]

Um, I think you need some serious perspective...

.. in a good way..

Anyone with a GPA like yours from UCLA will probably get into every UC dental school, and likely all the ivies, regardless of your ECs (though they are impressive)

Just relax about the ECs and do what you want to do for YOURSELF🙂

 

[doc3232]

Adcoms are VERY smart. They aren't fooled by a massive number of pointless ECs.

Real ECs: Shadowing, research, and other IMPORTANT time-consuming things.

Weak ECs: Clubs, hobbies, etc

Not to be rude, but I doubt you have accomplished 9 different ECs worth putting on the app.

 

[yayforcoffee]

i forgot about what you posted after reading your predents...omg dude!!!😱😱

...but i'd choose #2. anything that'll vary your experiences and give you more perspectives from which to write your personal statement, etc.

 

[uclaDDS101]

Just relax about the ECs and do what you want to do for YOURSELF

I totally agree. And I really love the dental work that I get to do. (Otherwise, I'd be sleeping every morning at 6:00AM rather than hanging out with the half-asleep residents during grand rounds.) I actually do enjoy all this stuff. But I just felt that it was unfortunate that I might not have the opportunity to put it all on the app. (But I'm definitely not doing this type of stuff for the app. That's not my style.)

Not to be rude, but I doubt you have accomplished 9 different ECs worth putting on the app.

As I said in my initial post, I had 9 entries for "dental experience", not "ECs". And I'd like to hope that they are worth putting on the app.

Some of them include: coordinating international dental missions to Panama and Nicaragua, assisting dental students chairside at an underserved children's clinic in Inglewood, assisting oral surgery residents in the UCLA oral surgery clinic, shadowing and volunteering with different dentists and specialists (GP, OMFS, Pedo, Ortho, Endo), various simulation lab technique courses at a couple of d-schools, etc.

Hopefully, the adcoms won't see this as

a massive number of pointless ECs

 

[ddsbruin]

Put down the experiences that you have been committed to - the ones you have spent the most time with. Don't put down EC's/dental exp that you only did once. If it was a specific once a year event such as Give Kids A Smile Day, then that should be okay. Remember that EC's/dental exp should not be just another thing to do on a "checklist." I've met a fair share of pre-dents like that and it's pretty annoying. It's the quality, not the quantity. I can sense your enthusiam and interest in dentistry. Put that forth into one of two areas that are most important and enjoyable to you. ADCOMS admire that way more than having an endless list of things that had very little commitment. If you're only a 2nd year and have that much experience already, I would just focus on the DAT for now. If you really want a great chance everywhere you apply, get a DAT score that correlates with your high GPA. Good luck.

 

[suhshi]

seriously

its like you wrote a book on your ECs
and they all seem legit

 

[JamesOSU]

Yeah just have to pick your best ones, most relevant and/or long-term for the application.

But seriously, do you sleep? Are you enjoying undergrad?? Go get a drink and meet some lady-friends, skip a class and sleep in. 🙂

 

[Contach]

Adcoms are VERY smart. They aren't fooled by a massive number of pointless ECs.

Real ECs: Shadowing, research, and other IMPORTANT time-consuming things.

Weak ECs: Clubs, hobbies, etc

Not to be rude, but I doubt you have accomplished 9 different ECs worth putting on the app.

I disagree. I think well rounded-ness is key. Having no hobbies is pretty lame. And i think you can learn a lot from clubs, and show a lot of skills too... but yeah, lose the sigma phi bull**** and the honors societies...

And, it sounds like s/he has a lot of ECs worth putting. Atleast, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

 

[DrReo]

I disagree. I think well rounded-ness is key. Having no hobbies is pretty lame. And i think you can learn a lot from clubs, and show a lot of skills too... but yeah, lose the sigma phi bull**** and the honors societies...

And, it sounds like s/he has a lot of ECs worth putting. Atleast, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

I agree. You do not have to state every EC in that list. Try working some into your personal statement.

 

[DrReo]

Instead of listing you were in club Y and did X. State what leadership abilities (at what else you gained from it) because you were in club Y and did X.

A lot of people get accepted into those societies. I choose not to participate because buying a resume booster isn't my ordeal. Sure, you can argue it has all these benefits and what not.

 

[thethethe]

hey bud,

even with a gpa like that, a dat score of 0/0/0 isnt going to get you anywhere.

 

[uclaDDS101]

but yeah, lose the sigma phi bull**** and the honors societies...

Yeah, I wasn't planning to put those on the app. But I was planning to put Mortar Board on the app, since that honor society requires a lot of service and time commitment.

Try working some into your personal statement.

I wasn't sure before if I could write stuff in the ps that wasn't mentioned somewhere else in the app. but now I know. so i'll definitely do this (within reason). thanks.

But seriously, do you sleep? Are you enjoying undergrad?? Go get a drink and meet some lady-friends, skip a class and sleep in.

"No" to the 1st question; "Yes, definitely" to the 2nd question. Sleep actually isn't something that's easy to come by. But I like staying active. I figure that I might as well get used to being busy for d-school.

But yeah, I do have a girlfriend, and one of us visits the other every wk end (usually she visits me). I've learned in my old and experienced age of 20 years how to balance work and play. week ends are a blast especially in LA (incentive for those considering UCLA d-school). Fortunately, I don't set aside much study time on a weekly basis. This gives me the flexibility to do a lot of stuff in a week.

 

[link517]

9

 

[hellonurse]

you are way more ambitious than most predents. I wouldn't worry about it and anything you don't include in your application will be great to add in your interviews. Have you already finished your pre-reqs for the DAT? Why not take that and apply this summer?

 

[hellonurse]

Also, how did you find the time in your short 2 yr(?) experience as a college student to volunteer at all of those places? I mean...how many hours at each of those places could you possibly have? I guess anything that you have 20+ hours is worth including. But since you have so much, maybe it would be 50+ hrs for you

 

[doc toothache]

You can create some space by dropping your Intramural Indoor Soccer from your list.

 

[cybermech]

I think everyone is giving uclaDDS101 an inordinately difficult time. This is the feeling I get from most of SDN. People who deviate from the median get all sorts of verbal abuse. He will be an excellent dentist no doubt.

Anyways, I forgot to respond to his original post. I recommend being a dental assistant at a local free clinic. I currently work as an assistant at a local community dental clinic. It's a great opportunity to dabble in community health AND gain some serious speed. I may not know the dentist's procedures, but I can do everything else pretty darn fast now.

 

[uclaDDS101]

Have you already finished your pre-reqs for the DAT? Why not take that and apply this summer?

I actually was planning to take the DATs this summer, but I didn't know that I could apply already... Isn't it very highly recommended and in most cases required that you have a bachelor's by the time you matriculate? Regardless, it's okay, i'm not in a rush or anything. I really like the flexibility of being an undergrad, especially at a school with so many opportunities to do fun and meaningful things.

You can create some space by dropping your Intramural Indoor Soccer from your list.

Yeah, I know I have some random stuff on that PreDents profile. I didn't really know what to put down, so I just wrote stuff as it came to me. A lot of those items won't transfer to the actual app., I guess. It all depends on space (which was the reason for this post).

Also, how did you find the time in your short 2 yr(?) experience as a college student to volunteer at all of those places?

I guess I just get excited every time an opportunity comes up where I can get out of class and actually do something with my day, especially things I enjoy doing (working with kids and learning more about dentistry, my most recent love). Credit due to coming from a small private high school with virtually no EC opportunities and going to a huge school like UCLA, where Los Angeles is "my playground." I am very curious by nature. I guess I just got carried away.

I mean...how many hours at each of those places could you possibly have?

I do most of the activities on a weekly basis: Oral Surgery ~3-5 hr/wk, teaching 5th graders ~4.5 hr/wk, TA for anat/physio lab ~8 hr every other wk, dental assisting ~3-4 hr/wk, high school tutoring/mentoring ~3 hr/wk, predental club ~1.5 hr/wk, intro to dentistry course ~2 hr every other wk, resource desk volunteer ~2 hr/wk, etc., etc.. Believe it or not, all of this and more fits my schedule.

Other things, I don't do on a weekly basis: international health missions, shadowing/volunteering in orange county, summer internships, etc.

So even though my PreDents might seem daunting, it's definitely doable, even comfortably so. As long as you have a passion for what you do, it doesn't feel laborious.

I feel that I also have a lot of time because I don't go to classes that I don't feel obligated to go to, and I don't study on a weekly basis. So far, studying the night or couple of nights before major exams has worked for me, so I'll stick to it. I think it also helps my schedule that I don't do research (yet). But when that falls into place (oh boy!), there's gonna have to be some major rearranging of activities.

you are way more ambitious than most predents

I didn't realize this before. I just assumed that every other pre-whatever was doing his/her own thing. So I did my own thing. I never felt like I was doing too much... until now.

I think everyone is giving uclaDDS101 an inordinately difficult time. This is the feeling I get from most of SDN. People who deviate from the median get all sorts of verbal abuse. He will be an excellent dentist no doubt.

Thanks for your support and useful feedback. i will def consider assisting to have another means by which to increase my speed and multi-tasking ability.

It's the quality, not the quantity.

I think what I am trying to prove to myself right now is that it is possible to achieve both (quality and quantity) if you are really dedicated and passionate. Anyone disagree?

 

[ddsbruin]

If you really are volunteering yourself to those activities for that amount of time a week, then I sincerely believe that you are committed. In that case, you do have plenty of quantity and quality to support your list. It's hard to believe that someone can spend that much time doing that many different activities in the limited time we have as an undergrad, but you are definitely different. Even though you are well qualified if you had a great DAT score and capable of applying early, there is no rush into dental school. I suggest keeping up your productivity right now and enjoying the rest of your years at UCLA. I'm impressed that you're PhySci and still have the "study night before and ace exams" skills. I suggest spending any other free time you have on owning the DAT. I wouldn't take it too lightly even though I can sense that it should be no problem for you. If you can get that done this summer, the 2010 app cycle should be easy for you. I would also suggest getting LOR's now if you haven't already done so. Mine as well get the recommended Chem/Bio LOR's while you're still finishing them up. 👍

 

[hellonurse]

you rock my socks 🙂 best of luck and keep it up.

 

[Contach]

I found this on your EC list: Co-Founder of Global Medical Training (GMT)

So, my school also has a Global Medical Training trip.. I've always been very against what they do. I've heard horror stories about students going to Nicaragua and Costa Rica and essentially playing doctor. I think this is highly unethical and it's the most backwards trip ever. I knew someone who went down two years and who did anesthesia injections into people's mouths. Granted, he was being watched by a trained dentist.. but comon... Other stories were students who followed around physicians. Basicallly they would go to underserved areas and set up 'local clinics', what would happen is there would be pairs of undergraduate students (read mainly second or third years) that would do the blood pressure, family history, basic vital sign check ups on the patient, and then would predict a diagnose and relay this information to the doctor who would come in later. All of the students had to buy scrubs, and some of them labcoats. When patients would come into the clinic, they would call them doctor (or atleast that's what the translator would translate it as). There was no clear communication that these students were NOT doctors, they were untrained undergraduate students who knew how to open an anatomy book and read it.. that is all... No corrections were ever made from the students' parts.. Often times, the doctor would have a talk with the patient and would ask for the patient to show some illnesses - one of my friends saw chlamidyia... what the ****? Would you willingly should your penis that is discharging yellow substance to several strangers if you knew some of them weren't necessary for your care? Hellz no, I would ask everyone except the doctor to leave.. Unfortunately, this level of professionalism and confidentiality was not provided. Disgusting.
Is that any way to treat anyone? We know this wouldn't be allowed in North American, what gives us the right to go to South America and do it there? Aren't we held to the same professional code and ethical code in a developing nation as we are here? This situation makes me think that the organization feel that no, we aren't held to the same code, and this really troubles me: basically they are saying just because they are poor we can offer them a lower standard of care. Absolutely disgusting.

But this year, my friends who essentially run the club, hosted a discussion series on the ethics of going abroad in the GMT context and invited a clinical psychologist and now professor in the MD program to speak. After hearing what the students had to say about the trip, and what kind of attitudes they were going into the trip with, she is following up with my school's Senate Board to try and get this trip banned... Her arguement is that due diligence in preventing students from 'playing' doctor is not being taken and the club should have to go through ethics to allow University students who are untrained to go on this trip. Karma bitches.

If I were an interviewer, and you condoned any of this type of behaviour (and by being the co-founder I assume you may), this EC would hurt your app. Lucky for you and unfortunately for me, I am not an interviewer hahah... yet...

/end rant. It's been driving me nuts.

 

[uclaDDS101]

I found this on your EC list: Co-Founder of Global Medical Training (GMT)

So, my school also has a Global Medical Training trip.. I've always been very against what they do. I've heard horror stories about students going to Nicaragua and Costa Rica and essentially playing doctor. I think this is highly unethical and it's the most backwards trip ever. I knew someone who went down two years and who did anesthesia injections into people's mouths. Granted, he was being watched by a trained dentist.. but comon... Other stories were students who followed around physicians. Basicallly they would go to underserved areas and set up 'local clinics', what would happen is there would be pairs of undergraduate students (read mainly second or third years) that would do the blood pressure, family history, basic vital sign check ups on the patient, and then would predict a diagnose and relay this information to the doctor who would come in later. All of the students had to buy scrubs, and some of them labcoats. When patients would come into the clinic, they would call them doctor (or atleast that's what the translator would translate it as). There was no clear communication that these students were NOT doctors, they were untrained undergraduate students who knew how to open an anatomy book and read it.. that is all... No corrections were ever made from the students' parts.. Often times, the doctor would have a talk with the patient and would ask for the patient to show some illnesses - one of my friends saw chlamidyia... what the ****? Would you willingly should your penis that is discharging yellow substance to several strangers if you knew some of them weren't necessary for your care? Hellz no, I would ask everyone except the doctor to leave.. Unfortunately, this level of professionalism and confidentiality was not provided. Disgusting.
Is that any way to treat anyone? We know this wouldn't be allowed in North American, what gives us the right to go to South America and do it there? Aren't we held to the same professional code and ethical code in a developing nation as we are here? This situation makes me think that the organization feel that no, we aren't held to the same code, and this really troubles me: basically they are saying just because they are poor we can offer them a lower standard of care. Absolutely disgusting.

But this year, my friends who essentially run the club, hosted a discussion series on the ethics of going abroad in the GMT context and invited a clinical psychologist and now professor in the MD program to speak. After hearing what the students had to say about the trip, and what kind of attitudes they were going into the trip with, she is following up with my school's Senate Board to try and get this trip banned... Her arguement is that due diligence in preventing students from 'playing' doctor is not being taken and the club should have to go through ethics to allow University students who are untrained to go on this trip. Karma bitches.

If I were an interviewer, and you condoned any of this type of behaviour (and by being the co-founder I assume you may), this EC would hurt your app. Lucky for you and unfortunately for me, I am not an interviewer hahah... yet...

/end rant. It's been driving me nuts.

I can definitely understand where you're coming from. On my first GMT trip (and UCLA's first trip) to Nicaragua, I found myself in a situation that I knew was not appropriate. The dentist there wanted to teach us how to do local anesthetics. And while my fellow undergrads had an eager sparkle in their eyes, I respectfully objected. I informed the dentist that we have not had the formal training to do such procedures and that it would be ethically irresponsible for us to do it at that time. He was extremely understanding, and he respected our comfort levels. We did, however, perform dental prophylaxis (scaling), which at the time I did not see reason to object to . When I returned I spoke to many different people about my experiences. The dentists and dental professors that I spoke to supported my decision to abstain from trying local anesthetics. When I asked about doing prophy, they were supportive as well even though I did not have the training. They felt that this was an acceptable level of work to perform under direct supervision.

I also spoke with a group of UCR students, who were very inspired by my stories. So inspired, in fact, that they wanted to start their own chapter. I felt that it was necessary for someone, who at least had some GMT experience as well as other international volunteering experience, to be actively involved with the startup and inaugural trip of their GMT chapter. Considering my previous ethical dilemma in Nicaragua, I made sure to extensively discuss the ethical concerns associated with these trips to all of the prospective officers and members at many of the meetings. Especially when I held training workshops (as the Dental Coordinator) for the dental volunteers, I fully informed them about what kinds dental work is ethically acceptable for us to perform (at least according to the dentists and dental profs that I talked to).

As a Co-Founder of a GMT Chapter, I want to you to know that I am doing my best to keep the work that we do morally acceptable and more importantly beneficial to the people that we serve. And every occasion that I am able to meet an officer of another chapter of GMT, I always prompt them to keep in mind these same ethical concerns and to sincerely discuss them with their members. At this point, I really do strive to achieve a more ethical organization. Rather than pointing fingers and scolding them from the an outside, I am trying to promote some change from within.

 

[MichaelVicksDog]

You just need to study and ace the DAT homey. If you get 22+ across the board, you can write a big F U in your personal statement along while leaving your EC's entirely blank and still get interviews at every single school you apply. When these schools invite you to interviews, just tell them that you're actually pretty busy and politely ask them to accept you.

 

[supraman]

i put 0 ECs and I got invites lolz

 

[Contach]

I can definitely understand where you're coming from. On my first GMT trip (and UCLA's first trip) to Nicaragua, I found myself in a situation that I knew was not appropriate. The dentist there wanted to teach us how to do local anesthetics. And while my fellow undergrads had an eager sparkle in their eyes, I respectfully objected. I informed the dentist that we have not had the formal training to do such procedures and that it would be ethically irresponsible for us to do it at that time. He was extremely understanding, and he respected our comfort levels. We did, however, perform dental prophylaxis (scaling), which at the time I did not see reason to object to . When I returned I spoke to many different people about my experiences. The dentists and dental professors that I spoke to supported my decision to abstain from trying local anesthetics. When I asked about doing prophy, they were supportive as well even though I did not have the training. They felt that this was an acceptable level of work to perform under direct supervision.

I also spoke with a group of UCR students, who were very inspired by my stories. So inspired, in fact, that they wanted to start their own chapter. I felt that it was necessary for someone, who at least had some GMT experience as well as other international volunteering experience, to be actively involved with the startup and inaugural trip of their GMT chapter. Considering my previous ethical dilemma in Nicaragua, I made sure to extensively discuss the ethical concerns associated with these trips to all of the prospective officers and members at many of the meetings. Especially when I held training workshops (as the Dental Coordinator) for the dental volunteers, I fully informed them about what kinds dental work is ethically acceptable for us to perform (at least according to the dentists and dental profs that I talked to).

As a Co-Founder of a GMT Chapter, I want to you to know that I am doing my best to keep the work that we do morally acceptable and more importantly beneficial to the people that we serve. And every occasion that I am able to meet an officer of another chapter of GMT, I always prompt them to keep in mind these same ethical concerns and to sincerely discuss them with their members. At this point, I really do strive to achieve a more ethical organization. Rather than pointing fingers and scolding them from the an outside, I am trying to promote some change from within.

solid answer. you've changed my mind about your experiences in GMT

But instilling a moral code in the GMT trips at UCLA and UCR is one thing, do you think that as an active member of the club, you should be trying to outreach to the GMT chapters at other schools? Ie. by contacting head office?

Also, I don't know if following 'practicing dentists' ethical standards or opinions necessarily means that exactly that must be the right thing to do. (of course, there are no 'right answers' in a situation like this) I think that it is more important to talk about what you value. For example, I know that when I shadow a dentist in Vancouver, I wouldn't pick up dental tools and start scaling teeth, so why would I do it in Panama? I wouldn't, and that is because I value equal standard of care to all people, no matter what your geography (but that could be a Canadian value). I feel that it goes beyond what you are comfortable with.

Also to add, I feel that students who go with the right intentions can be responsible. I feel that you good intentions, and your choices belong on the spectrum of the more socially aware. But at the same time, just the organization of the trip alone (and as you described, the demeanor of the doctors who go), is just asking for trouble when combined with less civil-minded students. I feel that it is often hard to guage why students are going, and this could compound the troubles.