Too many LORs for MSTP-dilemma?

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Hi everyone,

I have done a lot of searching on the different threads to an answer to this question but I'm still unsure about it.

So I have always heard that for MSTP you NEED to have a letter from every single PI you have worked with for significant amounts of time or else it looks suspicious... That being said, usually MD programs have a cap at around 5 letter. Often times I do not see a different letter requirement for the MD-PhD program.

Here's the problem: I've had 6 research mentors that can be condensed to 5 LORs. I've done three summer internships at prestigious universities and I have had 2 PIs at my home institution. I worked for one for 2 years and have worked for the other for almost a year, but will continue working through graduation (so for another year). So assuming I have to send all 5 of these, then I will not have room for anymore letters to send to the committee, some of which I believe would add significantly to my application.

5 PIs
1 letter from a professor I've had class with before, it was a genetic lab techniques course where I did a research project in class and learned about techniques. I also was a TA for this professor for an intro biology class. I've known him for about 3 years.

1 letter from the biology dept head who I've also known for 3 years. Took a class with him (intro biology) and also worked closely with him to develop a new pre-med class recommendation list and timeline for our school.

1 letter from a non science professor that I had 2 classes with and have known for about 4 years. He taught philosophy and I took metaphysics and ethics with him, so he can speak to my ability to reason logically. I know this letter will be outstanding.

1 letter from a very distinguished professor in the biology dept that is an alum from a school i'd really like to go to and she is the only professor in the university that does research in the field I want to. She was also the program director for the research program I was in for 2 years and also took a science ethics course from her and know her very well for the last 3 years.

I know all of these letter writers very well-well enough that we have conversed very regularly over several years.

Basically, I don't know how to meet all the requirements that the med school wants (i.e. 2 from professors you've had class with, 1 non-science, etc) yet still meet the MD-PhD requirements (i.e. send all letters from every PI) while still meeting that 5 LOR requirement. I've only had class with 1 PI and that was the class I got my only B in so.. I'm not too enthused about that being one of my letters I HAVE to send.

Do you have any recommendations? I do not want to annoy the adcoms (of course) but I also want to meet requirements??

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[Member011]

Hi everyone,

I have done a lot of searching on the different threads to an answer to this question but I'm still unsure about it.

So I have always heard that for MSTP you NEED to have a letter from every single PI you have worked with for significant amounts of time or else it looks suspicious... That being said, usually MD programs have a cap at around 5 letter. Often times I do not see a different letter requirement for the MD-PhD program.

Here's the problem: I've had 6 research mentors that can be condensed to 5 LORs. I've done three summer internships at prestigious universities and I have had 2 PIs at my home institution. I worked for one for 2 years and have worked for the other for almost a year, but will continue working through graduation (so for another year). So assuming I have to send all 5 of these, then I will not have room for anymore letters to send to the committee, some of which I believe would add significantly to my application.

5 PIs
1 letter from a professor I've had class with before, it was a genetic lab techniques course where I did a research project in class and learned about techniques. I also was a TA for this professor for an intro biology class. I've known him for about 3 years.

1 letter from the biology dept head who I've also known for 3 years. Took a class with him (intro biology) and also worked closely with him to develop a new pre-med class recommendation list and timeline for our school.

1 letter from a non science professor that I had 2 classes with and have known for about 4 years. He taught philosophy and I took metaphysics and ethics with him, so he can speak to my ability to reason logically. I know this letter will be outstanding.

1 letter from a very distinguished professor in the biology dept that is an alum from a school i'd really like to go to and she is the only professor in the university that does research in the field I want to. She was also the program director for the research program I was in for 2 years and also took a science ethics course from her and know her very well for the last 3 years.

I know all of these letter writers very well-well enough that we have conversed very regularly over several years.

Basically, I don't know how to meet all the requirements that the med school wants (i.e. 2 from professors you've had class with, 1 non-science, etc) yet still meet the MD-PhD requirements (i.e. send all letters from every PI) while still meeting that 5 LOR requirement. I've only had class with 1 PI and that was the class I got my only B in so.. I'm not too enthused about that being one of my letters I HAVE to send.

Do you have any recommendations? I do not want to annoy the adcoms (of course) but I also want to meet requirements??

Does your school do a committee letter? My school compiled my letters for me and sent a committee letter, and some schools count this as 1 letter.

I recommend you call schools individually to find out the best way to approach this.

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Mine unfortunately does not have a committee letter haha. But thank you for your advice! I have contacted a few schools already.. I'm applying to 25 so it's gonna be a looong month lol.

 

[ilikeargyle]

I sent in 7 individual letters of recommendation (no committee) and never had a problem. I marked all of them for all schools on my primary AMCAS. On secondary applications, they will ask you to specifically name which letters you want them to look at if there is a limit/requirement. I'm a bit confused on what you're so concerned about? This was really at only a handful of schools. Pick the letters you think will speak the best and most honest of you when there's a limit and specific requirements for the MD portion. Most MD and MD/PhD committees will look at your AMCAS separately anyway. The MD/PhD committee will likely access the rest of the letters on their own, especially if they request all PI letters.

 

[lazygun247]

My concern is actually how you have 5 PIs. Most people don't run into this situation because your undergrad is only 4 years and at most people switch 1 or 2 times. If you constantly switch between PIs, it just means you never settled down and actually did research (as research is time intensive and alternating between labs just means you are doing rotations and re-learning the basics of every lab).

If the 5 PIs you are referring to are in the same lab, then your definition of PI is wrong. You should only have 1 LOR per lab.

Keep also in mind that if those LOR are weak, it will only hurt your application. If you don't think you did well or obtained a very strong LOR, you should just exclude that LOR.

 

[URHere]

Personally, I would suggest eliminating the letters from your summer research programs. Your other 4 letters sound very valuable, and I think that LORs from your two long-term PIs will be enough from a research standpoint.

I did something similar when I applied - I had two substantial research letters from two PIs at my university, and I chose not to request letters from my summer research mentors. It didn't pose any problems.

 

[ilikeargyle]

Personally, I would suggest eliminating the letters from your summer research programs. Your other 4 letters sound very valuable, and I think that LORs from your two long-term PIs will be enough from a research standpoint.

I did something similar when I applied - I had two substantial research letters from two PIs at my university, and I chose not to request letters from my summer research mentors. It didn't pose any problems.

If you think a letter can add to your application, and give the reader better insight, you should add it. It's really as simple as that. My letter from a summer PI was consistently mentioned positively at nearly all of my interviews. No one complained to me about having to read too many letters. When requesting letters, you should be flat out asking anyway if the writer is willing to write a strong recommendation. 9 times out of 10 they will tell you the truth and say no if they can't. So now you know, and won't get a letter unless required.

Just my two cents! Perhaps directors and committees have a different stance.

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

Hey guys thanks so much for your input! I went ahead and called some places and most of them definitely didn't mind that I submitted all 9 letters or at least 7.

My concern is actually how you have 5 PIs. Most people don't run into this situation because your undergrad is only 4 years and at most people switch 1 or 2 times. If you constantly switch between PIs, it just means you never settled down and actually did research (as research is time intensive and alternating between labs just means you are doing rotations and re-learning the basics of every lab).

If the 5 PIs you are referring to are in the same lab, then your definition of PI is wrong. You should only have 1 LOR per lab.

Keep also in mind that if those LOR are weak, it will only hurt your application. If you don't think you did well or obtained a very strong LOR, you should just exclude that LOR.

as far as this goes, I have 5 because I did three summer internships and had 2 PI's over the course of 4 years (2 years in each lab) at my undergraduate institution.

Personally, I would suggest eliminating the letters from your summer research programs. Your other 4 letters sound very valuable, and I think that LORs from your two long-term PIs will be enough from a research standpoint.

I did something similar when I applied - I had two substantial research letters from two PIs at my university, and I chose not to request letters from my summer research mentors. It didn't pose any problems.

And thanks! That is a valid suggestion. I didn't want to omit the letters from my summer research because they were from hot shots at Harvard and Cornell and I go to a state school. lol. But thank you for your suggestion!

 

[VitaminVater]

So the consensus is, schools won't get mad or peeved off if you send 1 or 2 letters past their "stated maximum"?

 

[Hermione L Knope MD. Ph.D]

So the consensus is, schools won't get mad or peeved off if you send 1 or 2 letters past their "stated maximum"?

Generally I believe that is the case. If you think the letters are important send them. If you want to be 100% safe, call each school. I only ended up calling schools below 7 max because I figured I could cut out 2 letters to make my life easier.