Too many medical schools

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Medical challenge

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It seems like medical schools are doing to doctors what nursing schools did to nurses. Open up a ton of schools, with not enough residentcy spots, in an effort to decrease wages. How are the schools ethically able to get away with this? People invest years of their LIVES and hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to school.

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There are still plenty of spots available for USMD and USDO.

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It seems like medical schools are doing to doctors what nursing schools did to nurses. Open up a ton of schools, with not enough residentcy spots, in an effort to decrease wages. How are the schools ethically able to get away with this? People invest years of their LIVES and hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to school.

Seems like a bit of a leap.

I would imagine any university that establishes a medical school is more likely doing so to bolster the prestige of said university, and less likely as part of some elaborate plan to drive down wages. Wage control can be achieved on a much shorter time-scale through legislation than what you propose here.
 
I think some of the schools that have opened recently were established to at least partially address the need for more primary care docs. I don't have the exact numbers, but I think a lot of primary care residency spots go unfilled each year. Of course, then you end up with even more students who want to enter smaller, more competitive fields like derm, optho, IR, etc. Opening up more residency spots is a different issue, which I think has to do mostly with funding (ie. Medicare)
 
I could be wrong, but wasn't it also to address the shortage of physicians that they expect to have once the baby boomer generation completely retire?
 
I could be wrong, but wasn't it also to address the shortage of physicians that they expect to have once the baby boomer generation completely retire?

This would be grossly short sighted, as most accounts predict a significant surplus of physicians once the baby boomers die off.
 
Based on articles I've read, and there's a ton of new med schools opening. This is exactly what happened with RN and NP programs. Expand existing programs, make them online and fast track, and create new programs so that there are now 2000 nurses applying for each hospital job.

Shortage of residency slots may have chilling effect on next generation of physicians

So much irony in that article. The most ridiculous of which is that it's written by the Koeppen, a dean of a medical school whose first class was in 2013, yet he's bemoaning the looming disaster created by new medcial schools...

Since you're so afraid of this, let's look at reality though:

In 2017, there were 28,849 PGY-1 positions available through the NRMP match. There were also 2,564 positions in the AOA match. So 31,413 positions total, between AOA and NRMP. That doesn't include the ~300 positions offered in the Uro match, or PGY-2 positions available.

In 2017, 19,254 USMDs graduated per AAMC statistics. That means that if everyone matched, there'd still be 9,595 positions available for non-USMDs. Additionally, there were only 5,938 DO graduates in 2017 (5,898 matched). So even if every one of them decided to forgo the AOA match and apply ACGME, there would still be 3,657 unfilled positions in the ACGME. IF you look at total numbers, there were 25,192 US grads for 31,413 positions, meaning there's a surplus of 6,221 openings that wouldn't be filled by US grads. So there's plenty of room to create more US medical schools in that sense.

Given that almost every residency program out there prefers USMDs over anyone else, and many prefer DOs over FMGs and IMGs, the only reason US grades don't match is if they're truly terrible candidates with multiple red flags (in which case they likely shouldn't be be treating patients), or they're applying to fields or programs they aren't competitive in. That number will be even greater in the future once the ACGME match absorbs all the AOA positions as well as the continued expansion of GME positions. Additionally, There is a large aging physician population. Over 50% of physicians are over 50 and over 30% are over 60 years old and we're already in a "shortage" (some fields legitimately are, some it's just maldistribution), so it's not like jobs will not be opening up for physicians in the future.

As to your point about this heading the same way as nursing. It won't. There is no medical school that will allow classes to be taught online, despite how badly some people here may argue that their first two years were useless. Additionally, there is no fast-track for clinical experience, and several schools are moving to shorten pre-clinical years and get students into the clinic earlier. Maybe if this expansion keeps happening exponentially without any kind of regulation or control, but given that the gov won't just freely throw funding into further GME, this is not something that will have any sort of impact for several more decades.

For the TL;DR version, this is not nearly the disaster that you or the articles you're reading make it out to be, and if the didn't have the US gov providing fed loans to US students attending Carib diploma mills, it wouldn't be an issue at all.
 
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These threads always pop up or are brought back from the dead on SDN, along with "NPs and PAs are going to destroy our careers." The sky is not falling, medicine is going to remain a well paying and secure career for those who work hard.
 
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Accreditation standards will force schools to close or decrease their class sizes if too many of their grads are unable to find jobs. Hence Medicine is NOT like the Law in the US. Your fears are unfounded. .

It seems like medical schools are doing to doctors what nursing schools did to nurses. Open up a ton of schools, with not enough residentcy spots, in an effort to decrease wages. How are the schools ethically able to get away with this? People invest years of their LIVES and hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to school.
 
These threads always pop up or are brought back from the dead on SDN, along with "NPs and PAs are going to destroy our careers." The sky is not falling, medicine is going to remain a well paying and secure career for those who work hard.
As a practicing physician, I will caution you not to be so casual about mid levels. They are increasingly being allowed unsupervised practice and physicians are being fired in place of them. This is a MAJOR issue esp in primary care fields.

They are demanding “ equal pay” for what they see as equal work; I’ll be intrigued to see what the bean counters do when they realize that for the same pay they can get someone with many more years of training.
 
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As a practicing physician, I will caution you not to be so casual about mid levels. They are increasingly being allowed unsupervised practice and physicians are being fired in place of them. This is a MAJOR issue esp in primary care fields.

They are demanding “ equal pay” for what they see as equal work; I’ll be intrigued to see what the bean counters do when they realize that for the same pay they can get someone with many more years of training.

Fire the nurses and hire physicians of course, or just hire nurses with a lesser degree and pay them less. Asking or demanding equal pay will be the knife in the heart of that movement imo. It's not even just them either. In Kansas, chiropractors are now legally allowed to evaluate concussions during high school and college athletic events. The level of disconnect between politicians and actual healthcare professionals and the needs of the populations served never ceases to amaze me.
 
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Fire the nurses and hire physicians of course, or just hire nurses with a lesser degree and pay them less. Asking or demanding equal pay will be the knife in the heart of that movement imo. It's not even just them either. In Kansas, chiropractors are now legally allowed to evaluate concussions during high school and college athletic events. The level of disconnect between politicians and actual healthcare professionals and the needs of the populations served never ceases to amaze me.
Its terrifying on so many levels and WE (physicians) are part of the problem. Many in academia fail to see the problem or don't understand the depths of the problem with MLPs and chiropractors practicing out of their area of expertise, and without supervision. We've put on blinders for far too long.

Its OT of course, but I"m a member of a FB grassroots campaign to educate politicians and every single one of us who has been in Washington or in their local politicians office has noted MLPs there 2 steps ahead, conniving and trying to convince the politicos of their equivalence and in some cases, superiority.

I can only hope you are right that the bean counters will figure it out.
 
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Its terrifying on so many levels and WE (physicians) are part of the problem. Many in academia fail to see the problem or don't understand the depths of the problem with MLPs and chiropractors practicing out of their area of expertise, and without supervision. We've put on blinders for far too long.

Its OT of course, but I"m a member of a FB grassroots campaign to educate politicians and every single one of us who has been in Washington or in their local politicians office has noted MLPs there 2 steps ahead, conniving and trying to convince the politicos of their equivalence and in some cases, superiority.

I can only hope you are right that the bean counters will figure it out.

So long as we live in a capitalist society, I have the utmost confidence they will. Cash is king in the U.S., and considering their entire job is to manage costs I think it's a safe bet they'll do just that.
 
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So long as we live in a capitalist society, I have the utmost confidence they will. Cash is king in the U.S., and considering their entire job is to manage costs I think it's a safe bet they'll do just that.
equal pay means you get to pay everyone less since there is more competition for those positions. A political issue will need a political solution. The AMA needs to represent Physician interests, we need more lobbying and legislation and more bribing of politicians. We also need to fix the much larger problem of American healthcare costs that out of control. Because if costs are too excessive, people will react by blowing up the system.
 
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The AMA?


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Il Destriero
Your response highlights my point. We need the AMA to do what the NRA does for gun rights. We need a rabid dog focused on lobbying with the sole focus of preserving doctor's interests. It could be any organization with that mission statement.
 
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equal pay means you get to pay everyone less since there is more competition for those positions. A political issue will need a political solution. The AMA needs to represent Physician interests, we need more lobbying and legislation and more bribing of politicians. We also need to fix the much larger problem of American healthcare costs that out of control. Because if costs are too excessive, people will react by blowing up the system.

You're assuming equal pay for equal product. I never said the products were equal, just that this is the argument nursing lobbies are using. I agree physicians need better lobbying, but considering there is so much infighting among physicians in different fields I have little faith a larger, overarching group like the AMA will be effective.
 
You're assuming equal pay for equal product. I never said the products were equal, just that this is the argument nursing lobbies are using. I agree physicians need better lobbying, but considering there is so much infighting among physicians in different fields I have little faith a larger, overarching group like the AMA will be effective.
IMO
There are people that believe the earth is flat,that homeopathy and chiropracty works, and you are telling me the common person will be able to evaluate quality properly ? Since it will come down to marketing who do you think has a larger lobby right now and who has practice in marketing to law makers etc regarding the " quality" of their product? In all liklihood the NP lobby and media arms will prevail in that fight. That's why I dont think the NP's asking for equal pay will do anything besides flood the market and drive down salaries. Its like a mom and pop store with American made goods vs Walmart full of lower quality goods in theory people should pay for higher quality care provided by people who know what they are doing but the reality is that walmart will buldoze over the mom and pop with the cheap goods. It will be a slow erosion, a practice here , a practice there, but it will take place.
 
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IMO
There are people that believe the earth is flat,that homeopathy and chiropracty works, and you are telling me the common person will be able to evaluate quality properly ? Since it will come down to marketing who do you think has a larger lobby right now and who has practice in marketing to law makers etc regarding the " quality" of their product? In all liklihood the NP lobby and media arms will prevail in that fight. That's why I dont think the NP's asking for equal pay will do anything besides flood the market and drive down salaries. Its like a mom and pop store with American made goods vs Walmart full of lower quality goods in theory people should pay for higher quality care provided by people who know what they are doing but the reality is that walmart will buldoze over the mom and pop with the cheap goods. It will be a slow erosion, a practice here , a practice there, but it will take place.

The difference with your analogy is that hospitals are deciding the salary of nurses vs. physicians. Once outcomes start dropping off and readmission rates increase, quality of care will matter. In the private practice it may not, but if legitimate studies come out that show nursing outcomes to be inferior it will impact pay. Not saying overall pay won't drop, just saying there will still be a difference between nurses and physicians.

The demographics you're referring to have also always existed. It's not like they're some new movement coming after physicians, and as far as I've seen they're no more powerful than they previously were, just more visible due to social media. I also know many more people who are outraged that they don't get to see "the real doctor" when they're seen by an NP or PA. So for this instance, I'm far less concerned with the public perception and far more concerned with the political and legislative changes starting to emerge.
 
As a practicing physician, I will caution you not to be so casual about mid levels. They are increasingly being allowed unsupervised practice and physicians are being fired in place of them. This is a MAJOR issue esp in primary care fields.

They are demanding “ equal pay” for what they see as equal work; I’ll be intrigued to see what the bean counters do when they realize that for the same pay they can get someone with many more years of training.
The bean counters already know.

I've now worked for 4 different hospital systems. The most mid-level friendly of all of them restricts their mid-levels to one per PCP office. Two of them don't use mid-levels in primary care at all. All of those systems are still actively looking for many more MD PCPs.

The only places I see with equal numbers of mid-levels to docs are private practices...
 
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It’s not the same at all.
And there aren’t 2000 nurses applying for every opening. Or even 200. Or even 20 probably.

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Il Destriero

As a nurse, I can attest to this statements accuracy. There is a still a massive shortage of nurses. Nearly every unit in the nation is short staffed.
 
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