Too much experience ???

[Eurocopter]

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I have been lurking around here for awhile, doing alot of reading. I really appreciate all the knowledge that is here.
In order to ask my question I have to tell a little bit of a story.
I know it's going to sound like I am bragging, but I am not. I need to tell you all of this so I can ask my question.
I am a 32 year old white male. I am married with two children and I have always wanted to be a physcian. I became a basic EMT in 1992 (while I was still in HS). I became a Paramedic in 94 and have been employed in EMS since 92. I have been a Critical care flight paramedic since 96. I work at a level II trauma center and get tons of experience. I am currently applying to KCOM, OSUCOM, KCUMB. My grades are borderline after taking 18-20 hrs/sem and working 48hrs a week my overall GPA is 3.2 with a science GPA of 3.0 and a 24 MCAT. I have certifications in Advanced Cardiac Life Support, Pediatric Advanced Life Support, New born resucitation, CPR and I am an instructor in PALS, ACLS and CPR. Having said all that here is my question.
Should I include ALL of this in my applicatons or should I tone it down a bit. I am afraid that the review commitee might want some one with less experince so they can "teach them they way they want" rather than someone that already has a medical knowledge base.
I also want to sound qualified but not "over qualified" (if that is possible)
I am probably just obsessing but any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[MollyMalone]

Having that experience and those certifications will not hurt you as long as you don't have an "I know it all already" attitude to go with them. 🙂 Just make sure to emphasize that you realize that there is so much more for you to learn.

Go ahead and put them down.

Good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

Having that experience and those certifications will not hurt you as long as you don't have an "I know it all already" attitude to go with them. 🙂 Just make sure to emphasize that you realize that there is so much more for you to learn.

Go ahead and put them down.

Good luck!

Agree with this -- you don't want to dumb down your ECs as you need them to carry you past your borderline numbers. But by the same token don't equate it to already effectively having practiced medicine, but willing to let them teach it to you "their way", because adcoms probably won't see it that way even if you do. Arrogance can be an applicant killer. And you may be surprised at how many things you actually don't know once you get to the other side of the process.

 

[scpod]

Agree with this -- you don't want to dumb down your ECs as you need them to carry you past your borderline numbers. But by the same token don't equate it to already effectively having practiced medicine...

Ditto...None of those things that you've been doing will mean a damned thing on your first day of medical school. They won't be an advantage when it comes to learning Biochem, Pharm, Micro, or Path. In fact, you'll be at a severe disadvantage. You'll be surrounded by "kids" with better numbers than you and no family to worry about.

 

[Eurocopter]

I by no means think that I know it all, Quite the contrary. Every patient encounter is a learning experience. No matter how "routine" or "simple" a patient seems there is always something to be learned. It may be something as simple as how to relate to someone or to check your zipper before you enter a room. When you stop learning from your patients you are no longer useful to the patients that come after. As for the disadvantage I have to dissagree a little as I too am taking/ have taken: Biochem, Physics etc.. just like everyone else. But I agree that the patient care experince has little to do with the first two years of med school.
Thanks for your replies.

 

[Beau Geste]

Ditto...None of those things that you've been doing will mean a damned thing on your first day of medical school. They won't be an advantage when it comes to learning Biochem, Pharm, Micro, or Path. In fact, you'll be at a severe disadvantage. You'll be surrounded by "kids" with better numbers than you and no family to worry about.

the playing field is leveled on the first day of class. With previous exposure to critical care, I think that puts the OP at an advantage.

 

[scpod]

the playing field is leveled on the first day of class...

That's exactly what I said, except that the OP's marital status and children then become a hindrance in many cases. You need a study partner in medical school a lot more than you need a family. Yes, there are people who succeed in the OP's situation, but a lot of marriages end because of it. You simply don't need somebody bitching at you about how little time you've been spending with little Jimmy Joe and Sally Sue lately. Yes, family is a very important thing, and they can provide positive support from time to time. Yet, very few spouses truly understand the pressures or are willing to make the sacrafices that have to be met. In a perfect world, family comes first. In medical school, though, they can easily become a burden. Balancing your two "lives" can be precarious. Med school is hard enough without the pressures of marriage and kids. All I'm saying is that those people who don't have to go through that are at an advantage.

With previous exposure to critical care, I think that puts the OP at an advantage.

Any advantage from that ends on day one of med school.

 

[relentless11]

Should I include ALL of this in my applicatons or should I tone it down a bit. I am afraid that the review commitee might want some one with less experince so they can "teach them they way they want" rather than someone that already has a medical knowledge base.
I also want to sound qualified but not "over qualified" (if that is possible)
I am probably just obsessing but any advice is greatly appreciated.

Don't short change yourself. Besides, at least on the AMCAS application, there's no way to confirm these experiences. How you carry yourself at interview will determine if you get in or not.

I agree with what Megboo said, the playing field will be leveled on the first day of class. However I am more concerned about overall stats. The OP's experience will certainly carry their career far, but the question is, how does a 3.2 GPA and 24 MCAT look? In all honesty, these are below average, and any quantity or quality of EC's may not make up for low GPA/MCAT. Having to work is a reason, but should not be used as an excuse. There are people who work, and raise a family while going to school and acheive pretty good grades. At the very least, one should strive to get a higher MCAT score, which does not have to be affected by work...since you pick when you take the test.

In the end I wish extracurricular biomedical experience gets you into med school, but as our admissiond director pointed out on my application, I need to get my GPA up😉.

 

[Beau Geste]

Any advantage from that ends on day one of med school.

I think it put shim at an advantage especially in the clinical aspect - he'll already know how to read between the lines during an H&P and will probably be able to do it more efficiently than those without the training.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

That's exactly what I said, except that the OP's marital status and children then become a hindrance in many cases. You need a study partner in medical school a lot more than you need a family. Yes, there are people who succeed in the OP's situation, but a lot of marriages end because of it. You simply don't need somebody bitching at you about how little time you've been spending with little Jimmy Joe and Sally Sue lately. Yes, family is a very important thing, and they can provide positive support from time to time. Yet, very few spouses truly understand the pressures or are willing to make the sacrafices that have to be met. In a perfect world, family comes first. In medical school, though, they can easily become a burden. Balancing your two "lives" can be precarious. Med school is hard enough without the pressures of marriage and kids. All I'm saying is that those people who don't have to go through that are at an advantage.



Any advantage from that ends on day one of med school.

I'm a much better student since getting married and having kids. Maybe you should go drop your bomb of negativity and generalizations somewhere else? Just a thought...

 

[Beau Geste]

That's exactly what I said, except that the OP's marital status and children then become a hindrance in many cases.

All I'm saying is that those people who don't have to go through that are at an advantage.

Or a disadvantage because a family is also a source of support.

That's a really bad generalization to make, considering you don't have many numbers to back it up - just the med school class you're in.

 

[Beau Geste]

Ditto...None of those things that you've been doing will mean a damned thing on your first day of medical school. They won't be an advantage when it comes to learning Biochem, Pharm, Micro, or Path. In fact, you'll be at a severe disadvantage. You'll be surrounded by "kids" with better numbers than you and no family to worry about.

Also, those "numbers" have been shown in research to not predict a thing when it comes to board scores and residency. It's how you perform IN med school, and every situation is different. Maybe you're jealous?

 

[relentless11]

Also, those "numbers" have been shown in research to not predict a thing when it comes to board scores and residency. It's how you perform IN med school, and every situation is different. Maybe you're jealous?

I agree. Heck I had a <3.0 GPA as an undergrad, and I still got A's (we were graded relative to the med students) in med school courses such as general and systemic pathology, molecular biology, and microbiology. So my GPA alone was not indictive of how well I will perform in med school courses, combined with doing PhD level research at the same time. I think I was taking on average 17-18 units per quarter (usually 5-8 units was research).

I also don't think the MCAT is really indictive of how well you'll do in the first 2 years of med school, other than saying you're good or not good at taking standardized exams. Some of the 2nd year med students here thought it was ironic and amusing that GChem, OChem, and physics were not used in med school, despite it being on the MCAT. Although OChem is present in Biochem, you're not lost at sea if you completely forgot OChem either😉.

I believe that the OP, in terms of clinical skills, as megboo pointed out will have the advantage. Definitely by years 3 and 4. However in terms of the admissions process, it may be challenging in terms of all the applicants with higher stats, as I stated in my previous reply. The question is getting in, not neccessarily how you will perform in med school. Thats what I would be most concerned about🙂.

 

[scpod]

I'm a much better student since getting married and having kids...

Maybe for now, but college and med school are apples and oranges.

 

[scpod]

Also, those "numbers" have been shown in research to not predict a thing when it comes to board scores and residency. It's how you perform IN med school, and every situation is different. Maybe you're jealous?

Actually, pretty much all the research that has been published has shown a slight correlation between Step I scores and MCAT scores. There is also research that shows people with <30 MCATs tend to socre higher on Step I if they are in a PBL curiculum rather than a traditional curiculum. Med school GPA, however, has not shown a correlation with Step I.

 

[JimmyG]

Clinical skills will always be beneficial.

When I discussed my decision to apply to medical school with one of the physicians I work with everyday, he said, quote, "I wish I had your clinical background when I was in medical school. Most of the kids in there don't even know how to read a chart. Or write a SOAP note. Or respectfully discuss progress/changes/problems with the nursing and support staff. That will be your advantage."

Educationally, we will all be equal in the beginning. However, the OPs experience with managing, multi-tasking, and overall handling of stressful situations as an EMT and critical care flight paramedic is not something they teach in medical school. Knowing that he is successful in this area will make him more confident in a clinical setting.

 

[efex101]

Your experiences are great but your GPA/MCAT may be an issue at some schools. You need to apply to as many as possible to maximize your chances and maybe think about retaking the MCAT again?

 

[Law2Doc]

Or a disadvantage because a family is also a source of support.

Agree with this -- med school is often actually harder if you don't have a strong emotional support system. The folks who spend the most time seeing the school psychologists tend not to be the married types.

 

[chrisjohn]

Be honest, you have the experience.

That being said, being a paramedic is a long way from a physician. I have a friend, with a similar background to yours, who should be a MS4 who is repeating the MS2 year because of poor classroom performance and failure to pass Step 1. This person had a chip on their shoulder, and to quote another poster, it doesn't matter what you knew before class starts, just that you're able to integrate the material presented in class.

Your MCAT is too low. Do something about it and some ADCOM will overlook your grades.

 

[24IdaFire]

Try a problem based program, your experiance will help.

 

[Eurocopter]

Your words are helpfull, I think what I am getting after reading all this is "yes include all your experience" Just to address a few of the other points that were brought up. As far as the work load in med school goes I think am realtively prepared. I say this because currently I work an average of 48 hours a week and have averaged 22 hours a semester for the last calandar year. Taking Biochem, organic I/II, Physics, Genetics, Human Physiology, Ecology, Statistics etc... I did forget to mention that my gpa is low because of classes that were taken in 1994 that the college no longer offers, so I can't repeat them. I was pressured into taking the MCAT by my advisor after bieng out of school for 10 years. The only relavent course I had was Organic I/II and I had never had any Physics. (these are not excuses they are just the facts) As for the family situation, I was in EMS for 3 years before I was married and she is used to not seeing my for days at a time because of work/ school. So I think in my case my family situation is definatley a positive. I never intended to sound like I was a "shoe in" or "I already know it all" like I said I don't.
So thanks for the replies.

 

[medstudent786]

Hello, this is my first post, i am a junior doing undergrad in the premed field. I needed some help to decide how much volunteering is needed and what kind of volunteering is needed. So far, i have done:

LSU NCI Cancer research for one summer at LSU med school, got paid
Volunteered in the Pharmacy Department, about 20 hrs.
Volunteered with Habitat for Humanity building houses.
Volunteered with church youth group and local church groups

My gpa is 3.8 and science gpa is 3.6. I am taking the MCAT in January. I plan on volunteering in the hospital in the Emergency Room this fall, should i work in the emergency room or some other department, i was thinking about doing 50 hrs or so and then do research for my next goal. Is there somewhere else in a hospital i could volunteer. Does it have to be medical...give me some advice.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I'm a much better student since getting married and having kids. Maybe you should go drop your bomb of negativity and generalizations somewhere else? Just a thought...

Agree with this 100% (And with megboo and Law2Doc too.)

I haven't run into (NOTE: Doesn't mean that they don't exist) a med. student (with a family) that thinks that his/her family is holding them back. Plus, I agree that I have become a much better student since getting married and having kids (probably, in part, because of the extra support "built-in" to a family.) Whether medical school is much harder than college (duh, it is) or not doesn't matter. For me, at least, having a family has made me a better student, better time-manager, and a more focused person overall.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Your MCAT is too low. Do something about it and some ADCOM will overlook your grades.

Looks like the OP is focusing on DO schools. While a 24 is certainly too low for MD schools, is it still too low for DO schools, especially given the load of experiences that he/she has? Since I'm not applying to DO schools (this cycle at least) I honestly don't know.

OP: I am with the others -- your application is your way to advertise who you are, and the things that you do best. Your expereinces are going to be one of the highlights of your application, so don't hold back. Best of luck to you, and be sure to let us know how it all goes down!

 

[QofQuimica]

Educationally, we will all be equal in the beginning.

No, I am sorry to tell you, you probably won't be. There are huge disparities in what we all know coming in. (Most of my classmates don't know as much about chemotherapeutics and pharm as I do, for example.) Unless you have spent the past several years studying biomedical sciences, you are going to have to work harder initially than many of the trads, who HAVE studied these things already. At the beginning, the trads, who have spent the past several years cramming molecular bio, micro, genetics, etc. that didn't even EXIST when you were a college student into their brains, THEY are the ones who have the advantage. You will do your best to keep up with them and just hang on for dear life. And don't forget that you are probably also going to have classmates who have graduate and professional degrees in the biomedical sciences....I have a PhD in my class, and several others have MS degrees.

Look, I am all in favor of the non-trad solidarity and support that we have going on here. But for those of you who haven't started school yet, don't delude yourselves into thinking that you are going to have it easier when it comes to the basic sciences just because you're older and your family is there for you. You are in this on your own as far as learning is concerned; your family can give you moral support (which is important and shouldn't be discounted), but they (probably) can't help you learn the material. That is what scpod is trying to say (I think). I will tell you right now that some of these kids will totally kick your a** in the basic sciences, no matter how much you know in other areas. So start preparing yourselves now for the a**-whupping to come. 😛

OP, I'm sorry your thread got off track. FWIW, I agree that you should put down all of your experiences; they will only help you. Best of with your apps. 🙂

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

all i was trying to say is that my kids give me focus and drive. i know i'll be working harder than the trads, but my kids will help keep me motivated and on task. they'll also get sick the night before finals. they always do. but, ultimately, i couldn't do it without them. they won't put me at the head of the class, but they'll keep me in the class and as long as i finish and get that MD after my name, it's all good 👍

 

[QofQuimica]

all i was trying to say is that my kids give me focus and drive. i know i'll be working harder than the trads, but my kids will help keep me motivated and on task. they'll also get sick the night before finals. they always do. but, ultimately, i couldn't do it without them. they won't put me at the head of the class, but they'll keep me in the class and as long as i finish and get that MD after my name, it's all good 👍

Agree. 🙂 How are things going? Give me the short and sweet summary so that I don't have to read through the whole applicant thread. 😉

 

[iheartrain]

As for the disadvantage I have to dissagree a little as I too am taking/ have taken: Biochem, Physics etc.. just like everyone else. But I agree that the patient care experince has little to do with the first two years of med school.
Thanks for your replies.

You may have taken the same classes but your gpa is somewhat low and your mcat is very low for matriculants (though im talking in terms of allopathic md, may not be true for DO schools)...That may have been what the previous poster meant when they mentioned you being at a disadvantage- ie, it could be a disadvantage to you in the first 2 years if you did not master the basic science pre-reqs like others have. Also, I dont think you need to play down the EMT stuff- LOTS of people have years of EMT experience so you are not going to be overqualified for med school.

 

[iheartrain]

Agree with this -- med school is often actually harder if you don't have a strong emotional support system. The folks who spend the most time seeing the school psychologists tend not to be the married types.

I agree- its so important to have a support system, but this can come in lots of different forms- but just because you arent married with kids does NOT mean you dont have the same support in your life to get through med school. Lots of people are very close with parents, grandparents, cousins, friends, etc near where they live/go to med school that they can turn to when the going gets tough. Lets not bash on anyone for NOT having a spouse/kids OR having them. Either one has its pros and cons-- but being single doesnt mean you're destined for the school psychologis and having kids does not mean you're going to fail out. 🙄

 

[deleted6669]

Try a problem based program, your experiance will help.

AGREE- your experience will not help much ms1 and ms2 but you will be WAY ahead of the curve on rotations.....

 

[riceman04]

I'm a much better student since getting married and having kids. Maybe you should go drop your bomb of negativity and generalizations somewhere else? Just a thought...

He/she is speaking the truth...I never realized speaking the truth is equivalent to droping a bomb of negativity.

Your outcome is not universally applicable...the situation that you face forces people to either become much more efficient or buckle under the pressure. I wish that guy all the luck/blessings/etc...but let's face it...he has an extremely tough rough and bumpy road ahead.

 

[riceman04]

Hello, this is my first post, i am a junior doing undergrad in the premed field. I needed some help to decide how much volunteering is needed and what kind of volunteering is needed. So far, i have done:

LSU NCI Cancer research for one summer at LSU med school, got paid
Volunteered in the Pharmacy Department, about 20 hrs.
Volunteered with Habitat for Humanity building houses.
Volunteered with church youth group and local church groups

My gpa is 3.8 and science gpa is 3.6. I am taking the MCAT in January. I plan on volunteering in the hospital in the Emergency Room this fall, should i work in the emergency room or some other department, i was thinking about doing 50 hrs or so and then do research for my next goal. Is there somewhere else in a hospital i could volunteer. Does it have to be medical...give me some advice.

no

 

[oldpro]

I
Should I include ALL of this in my applicatons or should I tone it down a bit. I am afraid that the review commitee might want some one with less experince so they can "teach them they way they want" rather than someone that already has a medical knowledge base.
I also want to sound qualified but not "over qualified" (if that is possible)
I am probably just obsessing but any advice is greatly appreciated.

WOW this is the part that gets me!
You are not an MD nor do you know more than an MD. You do need to tone down a bit. Paramedics have this ego thing I know but paramedics are not MDs.
I think you need to really think about what you want here. You need to understand that there is more to medicine than what you already know and theat there is more to learn and more to understand. Trauma ( I was a Trauma RN for 5 years) is not the be all of medicine nor is als acls atls ect. There is way more than that. Think about this there is way more to teach you but you have to be receptive to the teaching too, and that may get you rejected from medschool with this attitude.🙄

 

[Law2Doc]

Lets not bash on anyone for NOT having a spouse/kids OR having them. Either one has its pros and cons-- but being single doesnt mean you're destined for the school psychologis and having kids does not mean you're going to fail out. 🙄

Um no -- I was responding to the prior poster who suggested having such was a "burden" and severe hindrance/disadvantage. In fact, people without often struggle in other ways (and yes, sometimes psychologically, due to lack of a strong family support system or a sense of priority/balance). That's all I was saying. And no, in neither case are you "destined" for anything.
But look at the threads in pre-allo, and you will periodically see posts like "I got a C in orgo, my life is over"; this is the kind of lack of balance and perspective I am talking about. And this kind of post is really never made by the older, married crowd, because they know that life is about more than school, let alone a single course. Med school is harder than undergrad, and about half the class who formerly got A's will find themselves below average -- that is the nature of the beast. If you don't have grounding/perspective, it will mess you up.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Agree. 🙂 How are things going? Give me the short and sweet summary so that I don't have to read through the whole applicant thread. 😉

Well, no interview invites yet! But I'm done with all my secondaries, so it's just a waiting game now. I'm working on solidifying my Plan B in case I don't get in this year. But trying to stay positive 🙂 It's a looong road ahead...

 

[iheartrain]

Um no -- I was responding to the prior poster who suggested having such was a "burden" and severe hindrance/disadvantage. In fact, people without often struggle in other ways (and yes, sometimes psychologically, due to lack of a strong family support system or a sense of priority/balance). That's all I was saying. And no, in neither case are you "destined" for anything.

Um yeah I clearly was also speaking out against the person that said being married/having kids put one at a severe disadvantage but you did write:

"med school is often actually harder if you don't have a strong emotional support system. The folks who spend the most time seeing the school psychologists tend not to be the married types."

And I also disagree with this. You are making a baseless generalization about "unmarried types", based on your anecdotal experience at your school, and I was simply disagreeing with it. I think it's hypocritical of you to get all bent out of shape when someone puts down being married as a disadvantage, only to point the finger at people who are not married as lacking support. Your post clearly implied that most of the people seeing the school psych are not married, as if *those* people are at some sort of emotional disadvantage. Not sure how I misunderstood what you said as I don't know how else to read into your post, so "um, no" I dont think that just because you are unmarried you will struggle psychologically in med school because you dont have a support system like someone that's married. I just get sick of BOTH sides (single people, married people, people with or without kids) telling others that they are at some disadvantage based on their familial situation..its a dumb pissing contest that is pointless.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your post clearly implied that most of the people seeing the school psych are not married,

I don't think I implied it, I think I said it outright, and have reason to believe it is an accurate statement --At any rate I was just giving balance to the prior poster who took the other extreme, and didn't mean to get YOU "bent out of shape". 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

Well, no interview invites yet! But I'm done with all my secondaries, so it's just a waiting game now. I'm working on solidifying my Plan B in case I don't get in this year. But trying to stay positive 🙂 It's a looong road ahead...

Heh, this is one issue where you are totally preaching to the choir. 😛 Sending good your way. 🙂