Top 10 0r 20 Path Programs

[106174]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker but just now registered. I'm a PGY-2 path resident.

Just for the sake of discussion - I was wondering which people thought would be the top 10 or 20 Path residency programs. We unfortunately do not get ranked by the US News and World report, like other specialties do. Is it safe to assume that the better the medical school ranking, the better the Path residency program?

I know that one's own program is always the best (it is what you make of it) but I thought I would stir up a discussion on this nonetheless - would be interesting to hear what people know or have heard (from faculty, fellows, other residents) regarding the ranking/reputation of Path residency programs.

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[LADoc00]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker but just now registered. I'm a PGY-2 path resident.

Just for the sake of discussion - I was wondering which people thought would be the top 10 or 20 Path residency programs. We unfortunately do not get ranked by the US News and World report, like other specialties do. Is it safe to assume that the better the medical school ranking, the better the Path residency program?

I know that one's own program is always the best (it is what you make of it) but I thought I would stir up a discussion on this nonetheless - would be interesting to hear what people know or have heard (from faculty, fellows, other residents) regarding the ranking/reputation of Path residency programs.

Youre a resident why would it matter now?? Anyway, from interviewing future residents, fellows, junior faculty and now private prac docs, the PERSON is always first and foremost, meaning I dont care if he went to Brigham and did a skin fellowship with Gottlieb or Murphy, if he/she is a no-personality, self-serving, non-team player who cant think on his/her feet, they dont get an offer.

 

[yaah]

Top 10/20 programs will be different for every single applicant. It is worthless to try and rank them, because all it does is make one population of people irritated and try to argue about these meaningless rankings, and makes another population of people think these rankings have validity.

Rankings of programs in other specialties by US News is also not very valid for residency training. It doesn't say anything about their teaching, case distribution, etc.

A good path program is one at a large institution (because a lot of path is based on rare cases that are in your differential) that has faculty that enjoy teaching, and residents who are there for more than just completing their requirements (either because they are *******es or because all they want to do is get finished so they can move on to their career of choice which may not involve much actual pathology as seen in residency).

The only thing that ranking programs serves to do is to give said programs' proponents a meager and unimportant reason to gloat.

Unfortunately for students looking to apply to programs, this does them no good, because they want to know what the "best" programs are, so they can look into them more. The truth is there are a lot of good path programs out there, probably in the neighborhood of dozens, that will train you to be an excellent pathologist and get you anywhere your intelligence and motivation want you to go. There are some "hidden gems," of course, but what these programs are is never going to be agreed upon anyway. Basically, one has to go and see for themselves.

Programs will try to tell you they are "among the best" by throwing out statistics like "most abstracts at USCAP" or how happy residents are, etc etc. The most important statistics should be 1) Do the residents pass their boards on the first try, 2) Do they get jobs they want. Resident morale is also key but is widely open to interpretation because there are sick, bitter individuals everywhere and one's impression of morale will depend on who you talk to.

 

[PathOne]

There IS actually a US News ranking... well, sortof anywayss.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/best-hospitals/rankings/specihqcanc.htm

OK, it's cancer treatment in general. But it's really difficult to become a great cancer center unless you have a first rate Path department. Apart from that, I'd have to agree with LADoc00. There's people who trained at the best places in the world, that I wouldn't let near my entirely benign skin rash, for fear of all the weird stuff they'd be able to dx from it.

When choosing a residency program you really want a place that can expose you to a wide array of diseases, without overwhelming you, and with attendings that are willing and able to teach you what they've learned themselves. Can't really see the need to go for departments with "Names" or "Gods", as they'd probably be touring the world giving lectures, or standing with one leg in the grave, when you get there. And anyway, you don't want to focus exclusively on one subspec when doing your Residency. In my experience, most reputable academic centers can get you where you need to be, and probably also a lot of community places, tho' I'm not that familiar with those. Of course, there's some really outstanding spots out there, but if you've got a shot of one of those, you probably know, or can find out, where they are by yourself. If not, I'm not entirely sure you'd be able to get there...

 

[LADoc00]

I used to be a CV *****, trying to get the biggest and best figuring somehow my life and career would be greatly improved by splashing more top 5 medical schools/hospitals...this was a lie and sadly for many a very big one. 2 days after you begin your job no one will care about your summa cum laude from Cal or the Phd from MIT or the MD from Stanford etc...it is all just crap you hang on your walls and FFS all my diplomas are all crooked too. I just dont care, there is crap strewn in my office, random boxes piled up, paper on the ground. It just doesnt matter in the end. The only single things names matter for are:1.) potentially landing an interview 2.) impressing drunk chicks...thats it. Seriously. Believe me now and realize it later. I just ran into someone I knew from freshman year in college, he dropped out of being a premed with an abysmal GPA and when he handed me his biz card that said vice president for a big financial group I nearly crapped in my shorts right then and there...trust me, busting your butt in school or going crazy to get a top residency is going to matter later on far less than you think.


Want my serious advice? Gleamed from my years of samurai-like devotion? go to residency in place where it is so dirt cheap to live you can pay for a mortgage on a resident salary. That is it, that is the wonderous secret. The house will appreciate, you can have a nice write off for taxes and have a place that is yours to fix up on your boring CP rotations.

ENJOY! The truth has been revealed for all.

 

[PathOne]

I used to be a CV *****, trying to get the biggest and best figuring somehow my life and career would be greatly improved by splashing more top 5 medical schools/hospitals...this was a lie and sadly for many a very big one. 2 days after you begin your job no one will care about your summa cum laude from Cal or the Phd from MIT or the MD from Stanford etc...it is all just crap you hang on your walls and FFS all my diplomas are all crooked too. I just dont care, there is crap strewn in my office, random boxes piled up, paper on the ground. It just doesnt matter in the end. The only single things names matter for are:1.) potentially landing an interview 2.) impressing drunk chicks...thats it. Seriously. Believe me now and realize it later. I just ran into someone I knew from freshman year in college, he dropped out of being a premed with an abysmal GPA and when he handed me his biz card that said vice president for a big financial group I nearly crapped in my shorts right then and there...trust me, busting your butt in school or going crazy to get a top residency is going to matter later on far less than you think.

Well, some people want to get into a good residency for other reasons than exclusively resume padding. Some actually (also) want to get some really good training. And it does make a difference where you go. I must say that people trained at certain institutions, notably JHU, MGH and BWH, really ARE more impressive (immediately post boarding) than most others. Others too, but not that consistently. Now, 10-20 years down the road, it's a lot harder to tell. But there IS a difference, both in the quality of the green residents, and in the quality of the teaching.

 

[LADoc00]

Well, some people want to get into a good residency for other reasons than exclusively resume padding. Some actually (also) want to get some really good training. And it does make a difference where you go. I must say that people trained at certain institutions, notably JHU, MGH and BWH, really ARE more impressive (immediately post boarding) than most others. Others too, but not that consistently. Now, 10-20 years down the road, it's a lot harder to tell. But there IS a difference, both in the quality of the green residents, and in the quality of the teaching.

People that are impressive from those places are so because they are impressive people, even if they went to Kentucky and not Hopkins. Show me one slacker Brigham has transformed into a Rosai or a Wiedner? Its a lie bro, trust me, I was once entrusted by the academic shadow council to guard this secret.

 

[psycho-Path]

People that are impressive from those places are so because they are impressive people, even if they went to Kentucky and not Hopkins. Show me one slacker Brigham has transformed into a Rosai or a Wiedner? Its a lie bro, trust me, I was once entrusted by the academic shadow council to guard this secret.

I totally agree with you and think that all this ranking is a lot of crap. People can do well anywhere. It is possible that training at BWH or JHU might be better but it is not possible that ALL of their graduates are automatically better then other just because they went there. I am wondering however whether it is indeed not easier for a person to land an academic job just because they trained at Brigham or JHU. I think that unfortunatelly the name carries its weight often independent of the achievements. Any comment on that LAD?

 

[pathstudent]

F U ALL. This is the official ranking

1) JHU
2) BWH
3) Stanford
4) UCSF
5) MGH
6) Tex SW
7) Michigan
8) Univ of Chicago
9) Duke
10) Mayo
11) Univ of Wash
12) Cornell
13) Columbia
14) Northwestern Chicago program
15) UTah
16) New Mexico
17) Minnesota
18) EMory
19) UVA
20) Iowa


And that's official

 

[LADoc00]

F U ALL. This is the official ranking

1) JHU
2) BWH
3) Stanford
4) UCSF
5) MGH
6) Tex SW
7) Michigan
8) Univ of Chicago
9) Duke
10) Mayo
11) Univ of Wash
12) Cornell
13) Columbia
14) Northwestern Chicago program
15) UTah
16) New Mexico
17) Minnesota
18) EMory
19) UVA
20) Iowa


And that's official

I would move BWH to no1 and JHU to no2, but that is personal pref., would move Emory up, alot. Northwestern down. UVA way up, at no19 you are smoking a big sausage there. And your list doesnt even have WashU which is definitely top5. I would move MGH down.

Half ass attempt there.

But again, its all BS!!!

 

[DW]

UPenn doesn't have a good path dept? I heard they were one of the best

 

[pathstudent]

UPenn doesn't have a good path dept? I heard they were one of the best

They would be in the top20, but they are so fricking strong in CP (and that's a bad thing)

 

[LADoc00]

They would be in the top20, but they are so fricking strong in CP (and that's a bad thing)

No UPenn is awesome, and Texas is in the top 10 for path??!

Dude you are:

 

[LADoc00]

LADoc's completely BS list:
1.) BWH-BCH
2.) JHU
3.) UPenn
4.) Stanford
5.) WashU
6.) UCSF
7.) Emory
8.) UVA
9.) UChicago
10.) UMich
11.) Cornell/Sloan
12.) UW
13.) Duke
14.) MGH
15.) Yale
16.) UTSW
17.) UCLA
18.) Utah
19.) Cleveland
20.) BID, Boston

 

[PathOne]

Ah! These lists! Gotta love 'em!
Very 'ice and dandy. 'Curse you'd forget places like Mt. Sinai and Mayo, and could only include Utah, and partly UTSW and UCLA 'cause you luuuve CP. But to each their own. While I'd doubt that everyone would agree with the list(s) above, I think that most would agree on the names - which of course wouldn't prevent them from incessantly debating the ranking.

Personally speaking, I think it's hard for any one to argue that Cleveland Clinic is THE place if you got heart troubles (not the bf/gf kind), or that MDA/MSKCC is where you'd want to be if you got a nasty cancer. However, there isn't really a place which is THE place for Path. Lots of very good places, most of them with some quirks, but nowhere that's outstandingly and universally annointed as Path Heaven. (I, of course, have a contender or two, but let's just leave them unsaid).

Oh! And you forgot NCI too.....

 

[pathER]

LADoc's completely BS list:
1.) BWH-BCH
2.) JHU
3.) UPenn
4.) Stanford
5.) WashU
6.) UCSF
7.) Emory
8.) UVA
9.) UChicago
10.) UMich
11.) Cornell/Sloan
12.) UW
13.) Duke
14.) MGH
15.) Yale
16.) UTSW
17.) UCLA
18.) Utah
19.) Cleveland
20.) BID, Boston

I'm not bashing UTSW cause I love the place, but I've been told, by many, that UTSW path is really not that hard to get into??? If it carries such a big weight, then, I'd better try to land a spot there????

Honestly though, who gives a fudge? You can land a good job no matter where you're from, and all this, I went to JHU for residency is only good for getting some, and likely if you're that smart, you're probably fugly, statistcally speaking, not always, but you get my point. So again, no purpose for this thread probably. If you want to be a "cool pathologist" just become a pathologist and be cool. Who cares about JHU....whatever.....and if you want to be well trained....train yourself well. Right?? We live in that day right???

 

[pathER]

Well, some people want to get into a good residency for other reasons than exclusively resume padding. Some actually (also) want to get some really good training. And it does make a difference where you go. I must say that people trained at certain institutions, notably JHU, MGH and BWH, really ARE more impressive (immediately post boarding) than most others. Others too, but not that consistently. Now, 10-20 years down the road, it's a lot harder to tell. But there IS a difference, both in the quality of the green residents, and in the quality of the teaching.

Don't you think that it might just be the fact that those people had to be more impressive to land those spots and the impressiveness just carried over??? I mean they needed great boards etc. to land the spot so they're probably hard working individuals and already smart etc. etc. You definitely can't make blanket statements about training institutions with the information age we live in. Are you saying, generally that you feel the level of resources or teaching is far superior. What exactly makes the training at these institutions so much better? I mean, yeah, obviously everybody knows the names, but has anyone really thought about what makes them better. It's cause great people flock there. I wouldn't say just because the training is better, it must be at least partially because great people go there and continue to train themselves well. I think if you're caught up in these kinds of things, you might be a bit of a narcissist??

 

[pathER]

Dude,

you are on crack. The OSU is better than 70% of these programs.

Hey you could have just said that OSU should fall just behind UCSF on that list. Would have been more diplomatic.....he he....okay if I thought that was funny I'm definitely not posting anything else tonight.....

He...he or you could have said that OSU could be considered just above Emory....last one I promise..

 

[pathstudent]

No UPenn is awesome, and Texas is in the top 10 for path??!

Dude you are:

No I am saying Penn is great, except for the fact that they are strong in CP. Being strong in CP is a bad thing. CP blows

 

[beary]

F U ALL. This is the official ranking

1) JHU
2) BWH
3) Stanford
4) UCSF
5) MGH
6) Tex SW
7) Michigan

Woot, I go to a top 10 program.

 

[beary]

Being strong in CP is a bad thing. CP blows

I am realizing this. I have been a first year for exactly one week on micro and am already bored out of my mind. I have no idea what I am supposed to spend my days doing. I can't believe I actually considered doing CP only at one point.

 

[Gut Shot]

I am realizing this. I have been a first year for exactly one week on micro and am already bored out of my mind. I have no idea what I am supposed to spend my days doing. I can't believe I actually considered doing CP only at one point.

If you notice, it's even priced for CP-only pathologists. AP-onlys will have to find a dime booth.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

I am realizing this. I have been a first year for exactly one week on micro and am already bored out of my mind. I have no idea what I am supposed to spend my days doing. I can't believe I actually considered doing CP only at one point.

That is a good thing?

I was considering CP only, with an emphasis on Molecular Diagnostics and Assay Design/Research. So is it boring, as in tedious time-consuming work?, or boring, as in I have free time to work on research work?

Regards,

-Salty

 

[beary]

I was considering CP only, with an emphasis on Molecular Diagnostics and Assay Design/Research. So is it boring, as in tedious time-consuming work?, or boring, as in I have free time to work on research work?

Hi Salty,

I'm a brand new first year so still trying to figure things out. My impression is that you would have free time to do research if you would like to. We have presentations to prepare for, and we shadow techs for a few hours a day. It seems like the more senior residents are spending time catching up on autopsies and things, but if you were CP only you wouldn't have that.

 

[SaltySqueegee]

Hi Salty,

I'm a brand new first year so still trying to figure things out. My impression is that you would have free time to do research if you would like to. We have presentations to prepare for, and we shadow techs for a few hours a day. It seems like the more senior residents are spending time catching up on autopsies and things, but if you were CP only you wouldn't have that.

Thank you for the response.

Any one else care to comment on the ability to couple research time with a CP only focus. Is this a viable career option for an individual?

 

[yaah]

Thank you for the response.

Any one else care to comment on the ability to couple research time with a CP only focus. Is this a viable career option for an individual?

That is really the only reason one should do CP-only. If you have any inkling of trying to get a real world job, it would be tough. But lots of people do CP only and go into primarily a research/academic career.

 

[PathOne]

Don't you think that it might just be the fact that those people had to be more impressive to land those spots and the impressiveness just carried over??? I mean they needed great boards etc. to land the spot so they're probably hard working individuals and already smart etc. etc. You definitely can't make blanket statements about training institutions with the information age we live in. Are you saying, generally that you feel the level of resources or teaching is far superior. What exactly makes the training at these institutions so much better? I mean, yeah, obviously everybody knows the names, but has anyone really thought about what makes them better. It's cause great people flock there. I wouldn't say just because the training is better, it must be at least partially because great people go there and continue to train themselves well. I think if you're caught up in these kinds of things, you might be a bit of a narcissist??

Interesting and valid questions. Personally, I trained at an academic, but not superior, institution. Since then, I have trained and worked at places that would probably be high on anybody's list, so I can say something about the difference.

Yes, obviously, the ability of a program to pick among the cream of the crop among future residents plays a role. However, I do feel that top programs does have several important assets to offer Residents. Among them:
1) A wide selection of specimens, including lots of consults, which is very beneficial in training, especially in seeing those weird differentials that you otherwise only read about in the Big Books.
2) Highly knowledgable, experienced and driven attendings. Not all of them can teach, of course, and some can be really painful. But working with them will, on average, make you a better pathologist.
3) Good resources. "Big name" path departments at "big name" institutions generally have ample resources, so nice surroundings, good scopes, lots of PA's, histotechs, etc.
4) An active research program. OK, perhaps research isn't the first thing you think about after 12 hours of work. But I think research exposure is important, also - and perhaps especially - in pathology.

Yes, there's also downsides. You can risk being sorrounded by "gunners", and the demands on your time and dedication can be really tough. However, in the end, I do think that it's worth going for one of the "top" programs. Which ones to apply for, however, is of course an individual decision.

 

[DoubleHappiness]

F U ALL. This is the official ranking

1) JHU
2) BWH
3) Stanford
4) UCSF
5) MGH
6) Tex SW
7) Michigan
8) Univ of Chicago
9) Duke
10) Mayo
11) Univ of Wash
12) Cornell
13) Columbia
14) Northwestern Chicago program
15) UTah
16) New Mexico
17) Minnesota
18) EMory
19) UVA
20) Iowa


And that's official

Come on people!! This is kind of weak! I always respected pathologists for the being some of the most objective minds in medicine. Ranking top 10-20 path programs is completely subjective and Bull$Hit! Some places have "big names" who you never see because they spend their entire day looking at consults or in a research lab. Others have huge volume, which can give you little time for activities that boost your CV. My opinion on the matter is, what are you looking to get into? Say you want to get into derm, and a program has a "top" derm path program that only take derms, you DON'T want to go there. Its all about jumping through hoops. People please be more strategic than "what's top 20". The strength between GI, cyto, GYN, derm, GU, Heme, etc is vast. Find the specialty you are interested in, find a program that has that fellowship, then rank from there. Fellowship is generally the last hoop to jump through academically.

 

[yaah]

Come on people!! This is kind of weak! I always respected pathologists for the being some of the most objective minds in medicine. Ranking top 10-20 path programs is completely subjective and Bull$Hit! Some places have "big names" who you never see because they spend their entire day looking at consults or in a research lab. Others have huge volume, which can give you little time for activities that boost your CV. My opinion on the matter is, what are you looking to get into? Say you want to get into derm, and a program has a "top" derm path program that only take derms, you DON'T want to go there. Its all about jumping through hoops. People please be more strategic than "what's top 20". The strength between GI, cyto, GYN, derm, GU, Heme, etc is vast. Find the specialty you are interested in, find a program that has that fellowship, then rank from there. Fellowship is generally the last hoop to jump through academically.

Yes indeedy, this is what I have been saying every time someone asks about rankings. I hate rankings. And as I said, there are probably 40-60 programs which are very good and will train you to be a great pathologist, and give you all the opportunities you want (if you are motivated). No program is going to hand you everything and set you up with things you don't work for. I am never quite sure about the motivation for looking for rankings. It is much much worse for undergrads who are looking at med schools, and doesn't really matter much for them either, despite what they say. There are residents at my program from all over the map in terms of what med school they went to, and from all over the world. Where they went to med school doesn't mean ****.

So, when looking for residency programs, find a place that has a program that appeals to you (for whatever reason, be it a strong subspecialty you think you like, location, vibes you got at interview, whatever).

There is no escape from prestige ******! (note: I am not calling anyone on this board a prestige *****).

 

[DW]

I'm not a prestige *****...I'm just a ***** in general.

There is no escape from prestige ******! (note: I am not calling anyone on this board a prestige *****).

 

[djmd]

8) City with a reasonable cost of living (afford a mortgage on a residents salary... appreciation and tax shelter)
9) Accessibility of the medical center (how quickly you can be onsite... this matters especially when you take call).
10) Accessible airport

Did you add those just to boost OSU (so it could "beat 70% of the programs on that list")...?

9 is nice (but how often are path residents called in on call). My average calls to come per nights on call is <1.

8 is nice, but if housing costs are high, then rent... 4 years is only about break-even for house ownership, you wont really make any money...

10? How often do you do to the Airport??? That's crazy. How does that affect a path program...??



As Yaah, LADoc, and others have said... Rankings for Path Programs are silly... Either you get a job/fellowship after residency or you don't.
And except for this crazy year (and for maybe 1-2 years after it), 90% of people will not have any real problem getting jobs/fellowship (DermPath Fellowships aside... that whole seen is crazy)

 

[yaah]

I'm not a prestige *****...I'm just a ***** in general.

I'd like to see your personal statement.

 

[LADoc00]

Did Either you get a job/fellowship after residency or you don't.
And except for this crazy year (and for maybe 1-2 years after it), 90% of people will not have any real problem getting jobs/fellowship (DermPath Fellowships aside... that whole seen is crazy)

Funny, all the sudden Im seeing people with serious issues in trying to get jobs, even floating without offers they like for months post fellowship or getting 1-2 crappy offers from HMO/county type places...have things changed? Is this the year that double the normal residents came out of training?? I heard things were bad 2 years ago, but they seem to be really bad now. Anyone else getting this impression? I had about 19 interviews (in 2 cycles) but that is seriously shaping up to be the exception. This is including dermpath.

 

[Gut Shot]

Funny, all the sudden Im seeing people with serious issues in trying to get jobs, even floating without offers they like for months post fellowship or getting 1-2 crappy offers from HMO/county type places...have things changed? Is this the year that double the normal residents came out of training?? I heard things were bad 2 years ago, but they seem to be really bad now. Anyone else getting this impression? I had about 19 interviews (in 2 cycles) but that is seriously shaping up to be the exception. This is including dermpath.

The two of our cyto fellows (the only ones I interacted with last year) didn't seem to have a bad time finding jobs. Both got partnership-track positions with >300K in 3 years, one with an absurdly low buy in. One went to the Pacific NW, the other stayed in Texas. One works 4 days a week.

 

[yaah]

Our graduates placed well also, one got several academic and private jobs, another got several academic offers, another got a few private jobs scattered around choice parts of the country...one isn't finding a job but he isn't looking.

 

[Gut Shot]

Our graduates placed well also, one got several academic and private jobs, another got several academic offers, another got a few private jobs scattered around choice parts of the country...one isn't finding a job but he isn't looking.

I forgot about our dermpath fellow, who decided to go academic for awhile (for what exact reason I'm not sure, perhaps to beef himself up while waiting for the perfect private job). He had so many offers that he was playing them against each other for salary hikes.

 

[PathOne]

I have yet to see a involuntary unemployed Dermpath... Well, actually, I do know one, but he's got huge personal issues, which would easily account for his current predicament.

 

[yaah]

I have yet to see a involuntary unemployed Dermpath... Well, actually, I do know one, but he's got huge personal issues, which would easily account for his current predicament.

See - this is the interesting ignored tidbit in "why some people can't find jobs." There are lots of pathologists out there, and not all of them are stellar candidates with good interpersonal skills. I would wager that there are quite a few who have poor interpersonal skills and their only real selling factor is that they passed the boards.

This is an important factor to bear in mind. If you can interview decently well, have no skeletons in the closet, and completed a training program with little to no controversy, you are probably ahead of a good percentage of the pack. Despite that fact that medical school is a competitive process (as well as residency) there are an awful lot of *******es who seem to sneak though.

 

[drPLUM]

Despite that fact that medical school is a competitive process (as well as residency) there are an awful lot of *******es who seem to sneak though.

Zing! Yaah tells it like it is.

 

[pathER]

The two of our cyto fellows (the only ones I interacted with last year) didn't seem to have a bad time finding jobs. Both got partnership-track positions with >300K in 3 years, one with an absurdly low buy in. One went to the Pacific NW, the other stayed in Texas. One works 4 days a week.

what were they starting at? 180K??? Less???

 

[Gut Shot]

what were they starting at? 180K??? Less???

Dunno.

 

[yaah]

Without even reading it I know what one of the cities is

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Without even reading it I know what one of the cities is

funny dude...i was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[deschutes]

Omaha, Nebraska?
Colorado Springs, Colorado?

Begging your pardon - I thought these were big cities?

 

[djmd]

funny dude...i was thinking the exact same thing.

Ha!

I hear that.