Top 10 possible? 13 -> 9 VR Drop, Strong Otherwise

[cantabrigian]

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I've read one other post similar to what I'm about to ask, but I think my question is a clearer, more objective one. (Please don't hate.)

I just got back my MCAT scores this past week and was stunned to see my VR drop 4 points from my AAMCs (13 -> 9). It was a particularly long VR section (check the 6/17/10 MCAT thread for confirmation) but I didn't expect such a drop. I thought VR was my strongest subject.

MCAT: 9VR 10PS 11BS -> 30S
GPA and sGPA: 3.8.

Anyway, I really would like to apply to Top 10 or Top 20 schools. I think I have a memorable statement and 5 strong letters (from three PIs, one of whom teaches at Harvard) and 4 years of solid research.

I think my MCAT VR score is going to hold me back from what would otherwise be a contender for a Top 10.

Is it worth it for me to retake the MCAT and (probably) get a higher VR by September, or would I only be hurting my chances by waiting that long? Also, if I submit my application, will my MCAT score auto-update and (possibly) change the minds of the ADCOMs reading my application?

Is the rest of my application strong enough to outweigh that 9?

Even though I'm asking "should I retake", this question is more of a "what are my chances" one, so I'm posting it here.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Ymeyu]

id like to know the answer to this question! im in the same boat with the VR score 🙁

I thought about it, not sure if the app will be very late and if i app now they might not consider the scores

 

[drizzt3117]

I think your entire mcat, not just the vr, will hold you back. If you're really set on top tier I'd def retake.

 

[cantabrigian]

I think your entire mcat, not just the vr, will hold you back. If you're really set on top tier I'd def retake.

Thanks for the advice. Do you happen to know if anyone gets interviews at Top 10 schools when they submit later than July/August? (Say, if they have a 35 or so.) If I retake, it'll be the beginning/middle of September before my scores are official, and I'm afraid all the seats will be gone.

Also, in this scenario, should I submit my primary as-is and work on secondaries, or hold back the primary till I get my scores?

I'm not sure about when in the process my application would be cut.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you're dead set on top 10s I'd wait another year and apply then with a good mcat.

 

[plauto]

who cares about a top 10, 20, or 100? Those who rate them have biased ratings anyway and the ratings do not mean much. It's not law school.

 

[cantabrigian]

If you're dead set on top 10s I'd wait another year and apply then with a good mcat.

I'm not dead set, but I think this MCAT score could even prevent me from getting into NYU. The main reason I ask this question is I think the MCAT is the only thing holding me back from a higher ranked school.

who cares about a top 10, 20, or 100? Those who rate them have biased ratings anyway and the ratings do not mean much. It's not law school.

I understand the sentiment. It just seems like a higher-ranked school could be in reach for me, with a better MCAT. I've heard it's easier to get a good residency match if you've gone to a higher-ranked school. Is that true? Also, I live near Harvard and have dreamed of going there for a long time—mainly for the amazing people and professors I've gotten to know, and for its resources.

But that's not a great answer. Your question is a good one, and one I need to consider more carefully than I have.

I may still apply this year and see what happens. Do applicants to med schools fare any worse the second time?

 

[drizzt3117]

You know, I've always wondered how those people who post in pre- allo about how they didn't get any acceptances despite high stats got there, and you look at their post and they applied to too few and too highly ranked of schools too late.... Don't be one of those people. Do it right.

 

[cantabrigian]

You know, I've always wondered how those people who post in pre- allo about how they didn't get any acceptances despite high stats got there, and you look at their post and they applied to too few and too highly ranked of schools too late.... Don't be one of those people. Do it right.

Thanks for the advice. I take it to mean: If I feel the need to get into a top 10, wait a year. If not, don't apply to many top schools but apply to a wide range of schools (I would actually go to) this year.

For anyone reading along with same line of questions I do, I have found this fantastic, balanced discussion about the question of how much influence your school has on your residency match. Knowing the info in this thread is helping me way (Edit: weigh - apparently I'm tired) the pros and cons of waiting a year to apply to a "better" school.

 

[drizzt3117]

Thanks for the advice. I take it to mean: If I feel the need to get into a top 10, wait a year. If not, don't apply to many top schools but apply to a wide range of schools (I would actually go to) this year.

For anyone reading along with same line of questions I do, I have found this fantastic, balanced discussion about the question of how much influence your school has on your residency match. Knowing the info in this thread is helping me way the pros and cons of waiting a year to apply to a "better" school.

yeah, I mean, there's only a specific set of circumstances in which it'll make any real difference. We'll see how it goes. I turned down a couple top 5 schools for my top 25 state school, I don't think it'll hurt me but I won't know for another 20 months or so 🙂

 

[wanderer]

Your MCAT is in the bottom 10% for those schools and your GPA is at or below the median. I'd imagine you only have a chance with that combo if you're URM or legacy or have some sort of other connection, and even then your odds are probably still very low.

 

[cantabrigian]

Your MCAT is in the bottom 10% for those schools and your GPA is at or below the median. I'd imagine you only have a chance with that combo if you're URM or legacy or have some sort of other connection, and even then your odds are probably still very low.

Living near Harvard has given me lots of connections to the school, and I've got other markers like PBK, researching in 4 cities at top 5 hospitals, a personal statement with a strong, mature trajectory, etc. I want to think these can outweigh one number (especially since my normal VR of 13 would boost me to a 34), but maybe not. I think I'm going to still shoot for a couple of those schools along with several mid-range ones that I'd actually go to. If I don't get in anywhere, I'll redeem myself with a better MCAT and reapply.

Seems like the definitive solution to me, anyway.

Thanks everyone for your input. Any other thoughts?

 

[drizzt3117]

Idk, it's up to you. Did you already submit amcas yet? Or would you be submitting now? It might take a month to verify at this point. Right now I think you have <10% at top 10s (being nice) and it'll drop with each day of delay. I think if you're really wanting to go to a top school, you need another year.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Having lived near Harvard, worked at the Harvard affiliated hospitals and knowing a lot of the faculty at Harvard (though not as well as at medical school affiliated with my undegrad), including one who will be writing a LOR for me (former chief of a department and sat on the admissions committee at Harvard - but, he is now retired) if you really want a shot at the top school, you have to wait a year and plan for a 35+ assuming a stellar GPA. The lower the GPA, the higher above 35 you want to be. With my GPA of about 3.6, I was advised to get a 37+ for any consideration at Harvard (I laughed pretty hard at this since at the time I thought to myself I'd be more than happy with a 32).

You are below the 10th percentile for MCAT for any of the Top 20. Unless there is a building named after you for which your family donated the money, you are wasting your money applying without re-taking the MCAT. Take a year off and build your application if this is your goal.

That said, if you apply broadly, there are lots of medical schools that would consider you seriously.

 

[cantabrigian]

Idk, it's up to you. Did you already submit amcas yet? Or would you be submitting now? It might take a month to verify at this point. Right now I think you have <10% at top 10s (being nice) and it'll drop with each day of delay. I think if you're really wanting to go to a top school, you need another year.

I haven't submitted, unfortunately. I was planning to this week. I'm going to strongly consider taking another year. (However, I may still apply this year to gauge the field. See below.)

Having lived near Harvard, worked at the Harvard affiliated hospitals and knowing a lot of the faculty at Harvard (though not as well as at medical school affiliated with my undegrad), including one who will be writing a LOR for me (former chief of a department and sat on the admissions committee at Harvard - but, he is now retired) if you really want a shot at the top school, you have to wait a year and plan for a 35+ assuming a stellar GPA. The lower the GPA, the higher above 35 you want to be. With my GPA of about 3.6, I was advised to get a 37+ for any consideration at Harvard (I laughed pretty hard at this since at the time I thought to myself I'd be more than happy with a 32).

You are below the 10th percentile for MCAT for any of the Top 20. Unless there is a building named after you for which your family donated the money, you are wasting your money applying without re-taking the MCAT. Take a year off and build your application if this is your goal.

That said, if you apply broadly, there are lots of medical schools that would consider you seriously.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Does the advice "take a year off" still apply if I'm on FAP? As in, it would cost me nothing to apply, and I've got my application basically ready. Do I have anything to lose applying twice? Can I re-use my LORs next year for the same schools?

 

[wanderer]

(especially since my normal VR of 13 would boost me to a 34),

I don't know why you bring this up. As far as schools are concerned you got a 30, and that's the end of that. No one cares what you got on your practices. Of coure, if you were to retake, odds are you would score higher on the verbal section. Even then, a 34 is going to wow anyone at the top schools, so try to improve on the other sections as well.

 

[property virgin]

If your in-state public school is ranked in top 10 or 20, then you should have a chance for an interview there, no matter when you complete your 2ndary there. Your EC is strong, but I think your MCAT needs to be higher for top 20 schools OOS and Private to invite you for interview late in the cycle.

 

[cantabrigian]

I don't know why you bring this up. As far as schools are concerned you got a 30, and that's the end of that. No one cares what you got on your practices. Of coure, if you were to retake, odds are you would score higher on the verbal section. Even then, a 34 is going to wow anyone at the top schools, so try to improve on the other sections as well.

That comment was meant to explain why I'm driven to consider top 10 schools at all (I can get a 34 on practice tests, which makes my ECs more important) and not on my chances of getting in this year with that score. Sorry for the confusion.

If your in-state public school is ranked in top 10 or 20, then you should have a chance for an interview there, no matter when you complete your 2ndary there. Your EC is strong, but I think your MCAT needs to be higher for top 20 schools OOS and Private to invite you for interview late in the cycle.

Thanks for the perspective. I'm going to seriously consider all the feedback I've gotten here and decide what's important and what I really want. I think you guys have given me the clarity I need to make my application decision.

Best,
D

 

[drizzt3117]

That comment was meant to explain why I'm driven to consider top 10 schools at all (I can get a 34 on practice tests, which makes my ECs more important) and not on my chances of getting in this year with that score. Sorry for the confusion.

I don't understand why you're talking about your practice test scores. I got 44-45s on my practice MCATs. I got 275+ on practice steps. so what? Those numbers mean absolutely nothing. All that matters is what you get on the real test.

 

[cantabrigian]

I don't understand why you're talking about your practice test scores. I got 44-45s on my practice MCATs. I got 275+ on practice steps. so what? Those numbers mean absolutely nothing. All that matters is what you get on the real test.

Because VR is normally my strongest section, both for AAMC full lengths and in life in general. My only point was to say that if I had done what's "normal" for me for this MCAT's verbal section, my MCAT would not be stellar, but neither would it be such a barrier to getting into some of these schools.

Again, my point was not that this practice test score should get me in anywhere. The point was that I feel like I am able to get a much higher MCAT score, one that (everything else considered) would let me get into schools I've wanted to go to for quite a while.

So I'm talking about motivation, not how I look to the ADCOM right now.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

 

[235009]

I've read one other post similar to what I'm about to ask, but I think my question is a clearer, more objective one. (Please don't hate.)

I just got back my MCAT scores this past week and was stunned to see my VR drop 4 points from my AAMCs (13 -> 9). It was a particularly long VR section (check the 6/17/10 MCAT thread for confirmation) but I didn't expect such a drop. I thought VR was my strongest subject.

MCAT: 9VR 10PS 11BS -> 30S
GPA and sGPA: 3.8.

Anyway, I really would like to apply to Top 10 or Top 20 schools. I think I have a memorable statement and 5 strong letters (from three PIs, one of whom teaches at Harvard) and 4 years of solid research.

I think my MCAT VR score is going to hold me back from what would otherwise be a contender for a Top 10.

Is it worth it for me to retake the MCAT and (probably) get a higher VR by September, or would I only be hurting my chances by waiting that long? Also, if I submit my application, will my MCAT score auto-update and (possibly) change the minds of the ADCOMs reading my application?

Is the rest of my application strong enough to outweigh that 9?

Even though I'm asking "should I retake", this question is more of a "what are my chances" one, so I'm posting it here.

Any advice would be appreciated.

1. as others have pointed out your verbal score didn't decline because you never took the mcat before
2. you are WAY out of your league here. it's great to dream big but you are approaching delusional. first you're MCAT VR "declined" despite it being your first attempt and second you think you have a shot at harvard with a 30 MCAT? I think you're real question is whether you can get in ANYWHERE and even that is unlikely.

If you think you can do better on the MCAT then you should take it again....even a 33-34 would put you in a better position of getting into A med school but you'd still be throwing a hail mary when it comes to a "top 10" school. right now though you basically have no shot at a "top 20" unless you are URM or have insane connections that you haven't mentioned (i.e. your dad is the dean or is an alum who has donated a million dollars to the school). First step in the process though is to be more realistic and come to terms with your limitations.

 

[cantabrigian]

1. as others have pointed out your verbal score didn't decline because you never took the mcat before
2. you are WAY out of your league here. it's great to dream big but you are approaching delusional. first you're MCAT VR "declined" despite it being your first attempt and second you think you have a shot at harvard with a 30 MCAT? I think you're real question is whether you can get in ANYWHERE and even that is unlikely.

If you think you can do better on the MCAT then you should take it again....even a 33-34 would put you in a better position of getting into A med school but you'd still be throwing a hail mary when it comes to a "top 10" school. right now though you basically have no shot at a "top 20" unless you are URM or have insane connections that you haven't mentioned (i.e. your dad is the dean or is an alum who has donated a million dollars to the school). First step in the process though is to be more realistic and come to terms with your limitations.

Nowhere here did I say that with a 30 I could get into a top ten. I think it's ridiculous for you to say it'll be tough for me to get in anywhere. My LizzyM alone says I'm well above average for most schools out there, so let's not be hyperbolic, yeah?

My question is more about gauging how much weight one number could have on an otherwise promising application, and (further) how much weight I should put on getting into solid schools this year vs. stellar ones next year. That question's complicated by the fact that I've already started to apply and that application for me this year is free. It's a non-linear, multi-faceted discussion. Not a borderline-delusional sob story.

So please: constructive criticism only. I'm getting a vibe that's more antagonistic than helpful from your post--correct me if I'm wrong. Also, let's not jump to conclusions about my perspective or expectations.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I'd still wait and apply once. As for FAP, I'm more familiar with HSPS, but I'm going to assume it's similar. If that's the case, then you are going to have to accept a military residency in most cases and the reputation of your medical school will not be of huge significance. I realize that there is a chance to end up in a civilian residency, but it's the exception. Again, this is for HSPS candidates not FAP, but if it's the same then just apply broadly rather than take a year off.

Does the advice "take a year off" still apply if I'm on FAP? As in, it would cost me nothing to apply, and I've got my application basically ready. Do I have anything to lose applying twice? Can I re-use my LORs next year for the same schools?

 

[cantabrigian]

I'd still wait and apply once. As for FAP, I'm more familiar with HSPS, but I'm going to assume it's similar. If that's the case, then you are going to have to accept a military residency in most cases and the reputation of your medical school will not be of huge significance. I realize that there is a chance to end up in a civilian residency, but it's the exception. Again, this is for HSPS candidates not FAP, but if it's the same then just apply broadly rather than take a year off.

Nooooooooo, no military for me. FAP = Fee Assistance Program for AMCAS.

I think I probably will just apply next year. It seems like a little more prep could go a long way, and one year ain't so bad.

Again, I appreciate the time everyone took to help me out.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Ops... wrong FAP program. I had the military on my mind when I read your post and immediately thought of that instead of the fee assistance program. I think you will be in much better shape with the year off [for top programs].
Best of luck.

Nooooooooo, no military for me. FAP = Fee Assistance Program for AMCAS.

I think I probably will just apply next year. It seems like a little more prep could go a long way, and one year ain't so bad.

Again, I appreciate the time everyone took to help me out.