top notch v. average med schools

[wjin06]

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Sorry if this post sounds naive--

Whats the main difference between these two? Is it really that big of a deal which med school you go to? Otherwise, why would it be so much harder to get into certain med schools? Also, do the two look for different qualities?

 

[Whitney]

I don't think it's naive. I was kinda wondering the same thing...Wish I had an answer for you. 😕

 

[skypilot]

Said there are only a few names that might make your career in Medicine.

They are Harvard, Hopkins, Yale, or Stanford. Other than that it is up to you to crank in medical school and land a great residency ..... at Harvard, Hopkins, Yale or Stanford.

🙂

 

[Gleevec]

Said there are only a few names that might make your career in Medicine.

They are Harvard, Hopkins, Yale, or Stanford. Other than that it is up to you to crank in medical school and land a great residency ..... at Harvard, Hopkins, Yale or Stanford.

🙂

LOL, because we all know that if you go to Duke, UCSF, Penn, WashU those schools won't "make your career." Harvard and Hopkins are generally better than the schools I mentioned, but Yale and Stanford most definitely are not (Im not saying theyre worse, but I dont think they would be considered better).

To be honest, I doubt even going to those schools "makes" your career in medicine either.

Its kind of funny to hear a doctor say that, was he an academic by chance? Or better yet, perhaps a graduate of one of those schools.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

From what I have heard, after you get out of say the top 5-10 schools, there really is not a huge difference. Its not like law school where there are so many schools, all broken down into like 5-6 tiers. I would say that med schools have two tiers: great and good. If you get into a great med school (Hopkins, Harvard, Stanford, etc.) then you can definitely get some name recognition. At any other school, where you end up in residency is going to depend on how you do in med school.

 

[wjin06]

well what about a school like u of mich or wisconsin-mad vs. university of mn? also, "what does it take" to get into the really top top schools then?

 

[skypilot]

LOL,
Its kind of funny to hear a doctor say that, was he an academic by chance? Or better yet, perhaps a graduate of one of those schools.

Actually he's a professor of medicine at UT Dallas. I think his point was that since I was unlikely to go to one of those schools it really woudn't make any difference and I should pick a school in a location that would make me happy. (I am dreaming of Hawaii or La Jolla right now)

🙂

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

well what about a school like u of mich or wisconsin-mad vs. university of mn? also, "what does it take" to get into the really top top schools then?

Thats the $10,000 question: How to get into the top top schools. It might be easier if there was some formula, but there really isn't. I mean, other than saying get good MCAT scores, get very involved in something you really like, get good LOR, etc. Its going to be the same advice that applies to getting into any medical school. When you start talking about the top 10 schools, its almost a crap shoot. This can be proven by the fact that many people apply to multiple top 10 schools, and get in someplaces and rejected at others. There is not a specific set of qualifications that will get you in.

 

[Gleevec]

This whole discussion is kind of frivolous because you guys are attempting to demarcate a HUGE jump in quality of medical schools when its a smooth spectrum of differences.

For example, someone said "From what I have heard, after you get out of say the top 5-10 schools, there really is not a huge difference"

Do you really think a residency director views applicants from Cornell and University of Utah equally (assuming relatively similar profiles)? Of course not.

We can try to be as politically correct as we want to be (though of course, some people try to include the obvious exceptions of Harvard, Hopkins), but it really doesnt reflect reality.

And that doesnt even take into account the regionality of med schools and how directors generally look upon regional schools more highly.

 

[skypilot]

well what about a school like u of mich or wisconsin-mad vs. university of mn? also, "what does it take" to get into the really top top schools then?

Have you published a scientific paper or done significant research? Did you found an organization? Do you have an advanced degree in Microbiology? Did you score a 40 on the MCAT? 🙂 (Had to add that in there) If not you can apply but get in line with the rest of us and roll the dice.

 

[VCMM414]

well what about a school like u of mich or wisconsin-mad vs. university of mn?

what about them? all excellent, prominent schools, umich a bit more than the others.

 

[skypilot]

Do you really think a residency director views applicants from Cornell and University of Utah equally (assuming relatively similar profiles)? Of course not.

.

From what I have heard, if the guy from U of Utah gets a better score on the USMLE and has better recommendations from clinical rotations they will get the nod not the guy from Cornell.

It is a much more level playing field since we will all be studying the same material.

🙂

 

[VCMM414]

This whole discussion is kind of frivolous because you guys are attempting to demarcate a HUGE jump in quality of medical schools when its a smooth spectrum of differences.

This is as good of a description as any. I will add that at some point this smooth gradation of reputation differences flatlines. Where that point lies has been violently debated, but no one can really say for sure.

I will venture a guess that schools ranked around and below 40-45 in USNews are roughly equal to each other.

 

[Gleevec]

From what I have heard, if the guy from U of Utah gets a better score on the USMLE and has better recommendations from clinical rotations they will get the nod not the guy from Cornell.

It is a much more level playing field since we will all be studying the same material.

🙂

I said relatively similar profiles. I can equally say that the worst student at Harvard, who failed the boards and sold drugs (hypothetically) wont be able to "rely on school name" and beat out a Rush grad with a 280 boards.

Im saying if you have too pretty similar individuals, med school will come into play, and the Cornell guy will get the nod 99% of the time over the Utah grad. So what Im trying to say is that its not a quantum leap from "top school" to "average school" but a gradual change.

 

[skypilot]

I said relatively similar profiles. I can equally say that the worst student at Harvard, who failed the boards and sold drugs (hypothetically) wont be able to "rely on school name" and beat out a Rush grad with a 280 boards.

Im saying if you have too pretty similar individuals, med school will come into play, and the Cornell guy will get the nod 99% of the time over the Utah grad. So what Im trying to say is that its not a quantum leap from "top school" to "average school" but a gradual change.

Yeah I agree, if they are perfectly equal the Cornell guy will get the nod. But all the Utah guy has to do to win out is work a little harder and score better on the USMLE and in clinical rotations.

The residency director is not going to take the Cornell guy if he gets lower scores. So school counts but not much. Performance is what makes the difference and it is a level playing field for that factor.

 

[missbonnie]

There are plenty 'o threads on this topic. In short name helps but is not the end all be all. Helps a lot more if you want to academic medicine and/or competitive residencies. Helps, not guarantees.

Private/"top" schools tend to have more $$ and resources, and tradition, if you're into that sort of thing. If you go to a name brand school, you'll likely have access to great names in academic medicine and access to great research labs. yadda yadda yadda

 

[wjin06]

So i guess what i'm wondering now is how similar is the med school application process to college admissions in terms of what they look for? I guess MCATs are sort of like SATs, and GPAs are looked more strictly upon, but what about ecs? I hear that ecs aren't as stressed as they are for college applications. So in order to schedule my time better, what sorts of ecs are really admired?

 

[skypilot]

So i guess what i'm wondering now is how similar is the med school application process to college admissions in terms of what they look for? I guess MCATs are sort of like SATs, and GPAs are looked more strictly upon, but what about ecs? I hear that ecs aren't as stressed as they are for college applications. So in order to schedule my time better, what sorts of ecs are really admired?

Volunteer in Hospitals and nursing homes, work with sick kids, become an EMT, do medical research and publish a paper. Stuff like that will help your app and your personal statement of why you want a career in medicine.

 

[imsotired]

Does it really matter? I know there are lots and lots and lots of people that would just LOVE to get accepted into ANY medical school. As long as you have the determination to become the best doctor you can be, it shouldn't matter where you get your education. Becoming a doctor isn't about receiving recognition because of which school you attended. It's about HELPING OTHERS and becoming the best DAM* doctor you can be. I'm not trying to put anybody down, but it seems as if everyone is worried about getting into some prestigous medical school. I'm sure each school has its own special qualities about them. It's only a matter of figuring out what they are.

I'll say this in advance: Sorry if I offended anybody.

 

[Asclepius]

Does it really matter? I know there are lots and lots and lots of people that would just LOVE to get accepted into ANY medical school. As long as you have the determination to become the best doctor you can be, it shouldn't matter where you get your education. Becoming a doctor isn't about receiving recognition because of which school you attended. It's about HELPING OTHERS and becoming the best DAM* doctor you can be. I'm not trying to put anybody down, but it seems as if everyone is worried about getting into some prestigous medical school. I'm sure each school has its own special qualities about them. It's only a matter of figuring out what they are.

I'll say this in advance: Sorry if I offended anybody.

come on now, OP didn't say he even wanted to go to a top-name school...sounds like he's just wondering what all the fuss is about.


My thoughts - name value is good for a few reasons: you'll have an accomplished community of peers, and this will set a high standard for youself, also pedigree is important if you want to go into research or teaching.

My medical school is not ranked at all, but about 70% or residency directors say our students are better or much better than their average resident...and students are placed all over (several in top residencies). Our students also do an amazing amount of hands-on work during their rotations because the understaffed hospitals need the help. It's a great environment to learn in because the hospital system is poor and oriented towards patient care, not research. I look forward to doing more research and complicated procedures as a resident, but as a medical student, I really want experience and confidence...that might be harder to come by at a well-funded, top-name research hospital.

 

[DrThom]

your family will hate you if you don't get into a "top notch" school...

 

[learss]

Top-notch v. average is pretty relative. What are you personally looking for in a medical school? If you are interested mainly in research or academics, Harvard or Hopkins is the best place to go. However, according to USNews, these two schools don't even place in the top 10 for primary care. UWash and Oregon take the top spots. Actually, most state medical schools place at the top when it comes to primary care.

 

[VFrank]

I've been told by many doctors that the USNews and World Report findings on the top primary care schools really mean nothing. The stats are composed entirely by subjective polls from the deans of other medical schools. Therefore, if the dean of school X has a buddy at school Y or some personal stake in the school, he will give school Y a high mark. There are no numbers at all to back up the claims made by USNews. The top research schools, however, are ranked on residency matches, GPA and MCAT scores, funding, and endowments. I would consider the top tier research schools listed on USNews as the definitive "best schools in the country." The opportunity to be surrounded by the best and brightest minds of medicine, access to cutting-edge technology, and the obvious old-boy system that will get you a lot farther than you might think are some of the reasons to consider Harvard/Hopkins/etc. the BEST schools no matter what the primary rankings say.

 

[jhk43]

Tier 1: the top 10-13 are in a class of their own, with the majority of students matching at places like "UCSF Internal Med", "Hopkins ENT", "MGH Opthal", "Orthopedics @ NYPH". the bottom 50% still get good residencies.

Tier 2: if u look at the #14-30 USNews match lists, there's less spectacular matches, but still a significant # of good residencies, i.e. "NYU Internal Medicine", "Orthopedics @ UCLA", "General Surgery @UAB", "Opthal @ wisconsin".

Tier 3: 30+, about 20% of the match looks really good, i.e. "Top 50 Hospital, Internal Med", "Orthopedics at any hospital", "Rads@N'Western", "Peds@UCSD"


These are general trends i've noticed, havent seen all the match lists. forgive me for making a lot of assumptions, i.e. top students choosing top specialties or top students at middle tier choosing U.NDakota Urology due to location, or something.

Bottom line:
If you graduate in the top 1/2 at a top 10ish school, you can pretty much chose whatever residency you want.

If you graduate in the top 1/3 at a middle school, you still have plenty of flexibility in terms of specialty and location.

If you graduate in the top 20% or AOA at a bottom school, you can probably match into most specialties, but perhaps not at your dream hospital.

of course, this all might be full of $hit

 

[ForensicPath]

You have the same earning power with an MD regardless of where you went to school.

 

[jhk43]

You have the same earning power with an MD regardless of where you went to school.

I know of a FMG making 700K as an interventional rad in Waco, Tx. I also know a UCSF MDPHD making low 100s. I'd venture to guess that a lot of top school grads may even choose to make less money to pursue true passions.

so yea, of course any MD grad can make good cash. School name probably makes things easier, opens up paths, locations, etc. Having said that, school name only truly matters with academia. Having said that, if you look at NYU Faculty, theres at least 3 Jefferson Med grads there (and 40+ from columbia, ucla)

 

[VCMM414]

Tier 1: the top 10-13 are in a class of their own, with the majority of students matching at places like "UCSF Internal Med", "Hopkins ENT", "MGH Opthal", "Orthopedics @ NYPH". the bottom 50% still get good residencies.

Tier 2: if u look at the #14-30 USNews match lists, there's less spectacular matches, but still a significant # of good residencies, i.e. "NYU Internal Medicine", "Orthopedics @ UCLA", "General Surgery @UAB", "Opthal @ wisconsin".

There is no ophthal at MGH (MEEI), and ortho at UCLA is not necessarily weaker than NYPH (now HSS is a whole different ballgame)

Just being a smart aleck 😛

 

[jhk43]

Just being a smart aleck 😛

so was i🙂 I should have instead mentioned "Pediatric Interventional Gynecology @ HARVARD"



does this generalization hold any water?

----
Bottom line:
If you graduate in the top 1/2 at a top 10ish school, you can pretty much chose whatever residency you want.

If you graduate in the top 1/3 at a middle school, you still have plenty of flexibility in terms of specialty and location.

If you graduate in the top 20% or AOA at a bottom school, you can probably match into most specialties, but perhaps not at your dream hospital.

of course, this all might be full of $hit

 

[ForensicPath]

I know of a FMG making 700K as an interventional rad in Waco, Tx. I also know a UCSF MDPHD making low 100s. I'd venture to guess that a lot of top school grads may even choose to make less money to pursue true passions.

so yea, of course any MD grad can make good cash. School name probably makes things easier, opens up paths, locations, etc. Having said that, school name only truly matters with academia. Having said that, if you look at NYU Faculty, theres at least 3 Jefferson Med grads there (and 40+ from columbia, ucla)

School name helps with research/academic medicine, but for those of us who just want to be clinicians and go into private practice, I doubt it really matters.

 

[willthatsall]

I think the reason the top schools are better for the most part is that the students are better, just like in undergrad. I'm talking about on average, of course there are some students at no-name state who are on a Harvard level. If you transplanted the med school class from Harvard to no-name state university and vice versa, all of a sudden the class at no-name state would be churning out world renowned researchers and uber board scores and Harvard students would be largely mediocre.

 

[jhk43]

School name helps with research/academic medicine, but for those of us who just want to be clinicians and go into private practice, I doubt it really matters.

oh for sure, if school name mattered, FMGs from NorthEastern New Dehli Baptist Medical Academy wouldn't drive around in X5s and 745i

 

[ForensicPath]

I think the reason the top schools are better for the most part is that the students are better, just like in undergrad. I'm talking about on average, of course there are some students at no-name state who are on a Harvard level. If you transplanted the med school class from Harvard to no-name state university and vice versa, all of a sudden the class at no-name state would be churning out world renowned researchers and uber board scores and Harvard students would be largely mediocre.

Not necessarily. Don't forget that schools like Harvard are really big on the whole legacy thing. Harvard would still churn out better research since they get more NIH dollars.

 

[ForensicPath]

oh for sure, if school name mattered, FMGs wouldn't drive around in X5s and 745i

I want a Mercedes SL600. That is one sharp looking car. I would settle for an M3, though.

 

[jhk43]

I want a Mercedes SL600. That is one sharp looking car. I would settle for an M3, though.

By the time I finish, I'll probably want an M5 for more leg room. Maybe also a weekend cruiser like a S55 AMG for $hits n giggles.

 

[VCMM414]

Bottom line:
If you graduate in the top 1/2 at a top 10ish school, you can pretty much chose whatever residency you want.

Yup, absolutely.

If you graduate in the top 1/3 at a middle school, you still have plenty of flexibility in terms of specialty and location.

True again, but it's probably not as desolate as your post sounds (ie. "you STILL have plenty of...). I don't think it's that big of a drop in the quality of matches if you are in top 1/3 at your middle category there. Of course, by top 1/3 we are also assuming 1/3 board scores.

If you graduate in the top 20% or AOA at a bottom school, you can probably match into most specialties, but perhaps not at your dream hospital.

This is a fuzzy situation. First of all, this is a HUGE group of schools (and not all of them qualify as "bottom school"). Schools toward the top of this group (eg. USC, Iowa, Rochester, Dartmouth etc.) really do quite well in matching. I would expect AOA/top 20% here to match very competitively. Take USC for example, I remember 2 yrs ago they matched something like 5-6 ophthals (at great programs like USC, Baylor, UCLA), 3-4 ENTS (I've forgotten where though), and a good number of orthos. Now that's a pretty competitive match, and I don't even remember the radio/derm/neurosurg etc. matches.

 

[ForensicPath]

By the time I finish, I'll probably want an M5 for more leg room. Maybe also a weekend cruiser like a S55 AMG for $hits n giggles.

For sure an M5 over an M3, but I am willing to settle. My weekend cruiser is going to need some muscle. I'm thinking Viper.

 

[willthatsall]

Not necessarily. Don't forget that schools like Harvard are really big on the whole legacy thing. Harvard would still churn out better research since they get more NIH dollars.

Yeah, it is true that Harvard would still have tons of research money. But after years of having students who aren't as creative and talented (on average) perhaps that would decline. On the other hand, when the lesser school all of a sudden is doing amazing research because it is full of students who are doing amazing research, maybe the grants at this school increase. I know it's an oversimplification, but my point is that med schools are great because of the students they attract. It's definitely a self-perpetuating thing: the best med schools get the most research money, this attracts the brightest and most creative students, this means that these schools do the most impressive research, this means these schools continue to get the most research money...

 

[ForensicPath]

Yeah, it is true that Harvard would still have tons of research money. But after years of having students who aren't as creative and talented (on average) perhaps that would decline. On the other hand, when the lesser school all of a sudden is doing amazing research because it is full of students who are doing amazing research, maybe the grants at this school increase. I know it's an oversimplification, but my point is that med schools are great because of the students they attract. It's definitely a self-perpetuating thing: the best med schools get the most research money, this attracts the brightest and most creative students, this means that these schools do the most impressive research, this means these schools continue to get the most research money...

Who knows? I honestly don't really care about this issue. I'm not sure why I even entered into this thread. I do think think that too much weight is put into rankings by over-anxious pre-meds than is necessary. Pre-meds put more weight into rankings than any residency director can ever dream to.

 

[VCMM414]

I think the reason the top schools are better for the most part is that the students are better, just like in undergrad. I'm talking about on average, of course there are some students at no-name state who are on a Harvard level. If you transplanted the med school class from Harvard to no-name state university and vice versa, all of a sudden the class at no-name state would be churning out world renowned researchers and uber board scores and Harvard students would be largely mediocre.

I don't think this is completely true. At a school like Harvard, or Yale, there is simply no way that close to everyone in their med class kill the boards. In fact, they don't, judging from their mean scores. Top schools by no means score the highest on the boards (sometimes far from it, Yale for example average within 1 SD above the national mean)! Yet, the number of students from these schools that get top residencies can sometimes be staggering. Yale, I believe, matched >10 derm this year. I think the school's reputation places a role but never 100% guarantees a spot.

 

[jhk43]

Who knows? I honestly don't really care about this issue. I'm not sure why I even entered into this thread. I do think think that too much weight is put into rankings by over-anxious pre-meds than is necessary. Pre-meds put more weight into rankings than any residency director can ever dream to.

Isnt this a car thread?

http://money.howstuffworks.com/maybach2.htm

I'd like a microwave in the trunk, though

 

[ForensicPath]

Isnt this a car thread?

http://money.howstuffworks.com/maybach2.htm

I'd like a microwave in the trunk, though

That would be nice when I travel long distances, but for more of my regular driving, I want something that will wake the neighbors when you start it and rev the engine. In other words, I want something with muscle.

 

[VFrank]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm planning on being, like, $200 thousand dollars in the hole after graduating from medical school. I'll prolly settle for a Volvo station wagon until I find a sugar daddy who likes redheads.

 

[souljah1]

This thread smells like a big turd.

 

[wjin06]

yeah it does. sorry if i come off an an anal premed, especially since i'm really not. in hs, i did a lot of ecs that weren't health-related directly, but in a way, i chose to become (or hopefully to become) a doctor based on those ecs. for instance, I'm involved with cultural/diversity organizations-i wanted to work in a field that would allow me to interact with people from different backgrounds, i was involved with speech/mock trial teams-i wanted a career where communication was important, and other facets of what i personally thought being a doctor meant. i did volunteer in a hospital, but that was only a fraction of why i wanted to go into medicine. oh, and i plan on taking the clinical route if i already haven't mentioned.. will rankings affect this much? i know someone mentioned that us news rankings on primary care schools were bs. why are they so different anyways?

 

[ForensicPath]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm planning on being, like, $200 thousand dollars in the hole after graduating from medical school. I'll prolly settle for a Volvo station wagon until I find a sugar daddy who likes redheads.

We can dream, can't we?

Sometimes if I close my eyes, my Chevy Blazer with its bad transmission feels like that SL600. I've only seen 2 of them in person: 1 in the rich suburbs of philadelphia and the other in the Hamptons on Long Island.

 

[Blake]

200 k in the hole ? Damn, how about moving to French Canada. I'm sure I won't even be 60 k in the hole 😀

 

[ForensicPath]

Just for the heck of it, here she is:
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/SL600R.jsp

MSRP: $126,970.00*
Engine: Twin turbocharged 5.5L 36-valve V-12 engine
Net Power: 493 hp @ 5,000 rpm
Net Torque: 590 lb-ft @ 1,800 - 3,500 rpm

 

[jhk43]

Just for the heck of it, here she is:
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/SL600R.jsp

MSRP: $126,970.00*
Engine: Twin turbocharged 5.5L 36-valve V-12 engine
Net Power: 493 hp @ 5,000 rpm
Net Torque: 590 lb-ft @ 1,800 - 3,500 rpm

sl600s grow on trees in california

 

[eklope2000]

There are no numbers at all to back up the claims made by USNews. The top research schools, however, are ranked on residency matches,

To clarify, the research school ranking takes into account the *subjective* appraisal of residency directors, not the actual match outcomes of schools. I have found in my research that the match lists of medical schools--highly ranked or mediocre--are nowhere near as different as one might expect.

 

[exmike]

sl600s grow on trees in california

sadly true