I am having a really hard time figuring out reputations. I know it is difficult to give an overall rating as opposed to best regional, best trauma, etc., but I was just curious to see what people think the top ten programs overall are??
top ten programs?
- Thread starter walla
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you are going to get a lot of different opinions. But here is my top 10. (based on overall caseload, resident satisfaction)
1) Hopkins
2) MGH
3) UCSF
4) Brigham
5) Penn
6) Columbia
7) Mayo Clinic
8) Duke
9) Michigan
10) UAB/Emory/Stanford
this does not take into account living environment, night life, but all things being equal...
1) Hopkins
2) MGH
3) UCSF
4) Brigham
5) Penn
6) Columbia
7) Mayo Clinic
8) Duke
9) Michigan
10) UAB/Emory/Stanford
this does not take into account living environment, night life, but all things being equal...
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From my experience on the interview trail I think you need to make several lists because you end up having to take a compromise. Also, many of the residents at the "big-name" programs are overworked and unhappy based on the conversations I had with them.
Here is my list:
1. UCSF
2. Cleveland Clinic Foundation (my program, thus I am biased but I chose to be here over many of these for a reason. I interviewed and/or rotated at many places on this list)
3. UNC-Chapel Hill (up and coming program)
4. Mayo Clinic (ever been to rochester? hehe)
5-MGH (reputation as a malignant program)
6-Hopkins (largely due to residents unhappy)
7. Indiana
8. Northwestern (bad rep in past but very up and coming)
9. U of Chicago
10. Michigan
You can get great info on programs at scutwork.com by the way. Also, please post info on your program if it hasn't been reviewed. This really helps out applicants.
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If you are talking about the Univ. of Wisc, I have heard the opposite...Med Coll Wisc is much stronger than UW...
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This thread is starting to look like my fantasy football draft sheet. Is Priest Holmes number #1? Maybe LT??? No, No wait, maybe Ricky Williams!!!
The take home message is that all of the programs listed above are good schools and you would have excellent training. The exact numbers don't mean anything. One persons number 1 equals one persons number 5 and so on. Its all subjective.
I don't think any group when you get out of residency will say, "no I don't want him because he went to Michigan instead of Hopkins."
By the way, I predicted Faulk's decline this year even though he was drafted top 5... haha
Back to work..........😛
The take home message is that all of the programs listed above are good schools and you would have excellent training. The exact numbers don't mean anything. One persons number 1 equals one persons number 5 and so on. Its all subjective.
I don't think any group when you get out of residency will say, "no I don't want him because he went to Michigan instead of Hopkins."
By the way, I predicted Faulk's decline this year even though he was drafted top 5... haha
Back to work..........😛
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I am sick and tired of the perpetuation of the myth around Hopkins, MGH and UCSF.... I am at MGH and i have friends doing their residency at both UCSF and Hopkins - so this is not interview legend crap, but cold hard truth...
None of those programs are Malignant by any means!!! We work from 6:30 am to 5:30ish every day, and take call q5-q7 (except for in the ICU where call is busier) with the post-call day off.
The attendings are for the most part fantastic, love to teach.
While it is true that at these programs there is a lot more autonomy (meaning you - as the resident - make a lot of the decisions), we don't need no hand-holding after our tutorial time...
The reason why this myth about MGH, UCSF, Hopkins being malignant is still around is a reflection of the jealousies of various PDs and other program residents. For example, "come to Univ. of Timbuktu because we will treat you right, send you home at 2pm, feed you caviar in the physician's lounge - and stay away from those horrible programs in boston, baltimore, san fran because they are big, evil and mean".... what a load of crap!!!
I challenge any of you on the board to call my program - speak to the secretary (Cindy Rubin - 617-726-3030), ask for a list of the residents, and ask ANY of them about this program - 99.9% of us love this program and wouldn't choose otherwise, and remember there will always be one person at every program who complains about something....
So please, for heaven's sake, stop calling programs malignant just because of hearsay.... come interview here, join us for dinner at the Harvard Garden and hang out with relaxed, socially-outgoing residents...
None of those programs are Malignant by any means!!! We work from 6:30 am to 5:30ish every day, and take call q5-q7 (except for in the ICU where call is busier) with the post-call day off.
The attendings are for the most part fantastic, love to teach.
While it is true that at these programs there is a lot more autonomy (meaning you - as the resident - make a lot of the decisions), we don't need no hand-holding after our tutorial time...
The reason why this myth about MGH, UCSF, Hopkins being malignant is still around is a reflection of the jealousies of various PDs and other program residents. For example, "come to Univ. of Timbuktu because we will treat you right, send you home at 2pm, feed you caviar in the physician's lounge - and stay away from those horrible programs in boston, baltimore, san fran because they are big, evil and mean".... what a load of crap!!!
I challenge any of you on the board to call my program - speak to the secretary (Cindy Rubin - 617-726-3030), ask for a list of the residents, and ask ANY of them about this program - 99.9% of us love this program and wouldn't choose otherwise, and remember there will always be one person at every program who complains about something....
So please, for heaven's sake, stop calling programs malignant just because of hearsay.... come interview here, join us for dinner at the Harvard Garden and hang out with relaxed, socially-outgoing residents...
You sound like a very ANGRY person. Your tone is very aggressive and antagonistic. Thanks for proving my point regarding the character of people at your institution.
Chill out man, you really need some anger management.
Chill out man, you really need some anger management.
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ravanbj
you must be kidding, right?
i am by no ways a representative of the people at my institution, but i know for sure that we are all sick of the promulgated myth that we are malignant.... the only people who have a right to say anything about us being malignant are: 1) MGH residents 2) MGH attendings 3) people who have actually interviewed here 4) people who have done an elective here .... otherwise, everybody else is just spreading hearsay out of jealousy...
you must be kidding, right?
i am by no ways a representative of the people at my institution, but i know for sure that we are all sick of the promulgated myth that we are malignant.... the only people who have a right to say anything about us being malignant are: 1) MGH residents 2) MGH attendings 3) people who have actually interviewed here 4) people who have done an elective here .... otherwise, everybody else is just spreading hearsay out of jealousy...
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Socially outgoing = friendly or PARTY!. If its a bunch of partiers, sign me up...I would definitely interview there. Heard the chicks rock too.
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i would say that for the most part social is 40% party people 60% married go home and spend time with kids.... friday nights are usually either at the Hill or the Beacon Hill Pub... in every year there is a group of 6-8 hardcore party people (we usually hit the bars/nightclubs in the Backbay or Faneuil Area)... The chairman usually has lobster bakes at his house on the Cape, we have cocktails at the Art Museum, we have socials at the Ritz-Carlton (paid for by the dept.).... as far as chicks go, since coming to Boston I never spend more than one day as a single man (of course now i am married). This town is crawling with college/grad school chicks with a ridiculous ratio, and since most of the guys in Boston hang out at dumpy bars, all you have to do is go to a martini bar (like the Vox or the Saint) and the odds are in your favor.... and i have to say that compared to where i did my internship, there are some attractive ladies in the hospital, too. (if you interview here ask to see the surgical ICU, you will see what i mean when you see the nurses)
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Tenesma,
I did interview at Hopkins and spoke with more than 1 anesthesia resident who was unhappy. "I can never make plans to go out at night because I never know when I will get out of the ORs." This was only one of the comments. When someone tells you this at an interview dinner, and then you talk to a couple of other residents the next day who confirm it, it leaves an impression. (Watch, now I will get 10 hopkins residents who disagree). 🙂 I honestly hope I do actually...
Also, one of my friends interviewed at MGH and spoke with several residents there who felt the system was too heirarchial, etc. They also felt like they were overworked and underappreciated by the surgeons. "Cowboy surgeons" was a phrase that was used in that discussion... Were these the couple residents who were bitter and all the rest are happy? Who knows.
Anyways, the decision on which of type of program is right for you is certainly a multi-factorial one. What does "Top Ten" mean anyways? Top Ten hottest nurses, top ten easy schedules, top ten in research, etc.
In my post I attempted to justify where I ranked programs. I interviewed at 5 out of those 10 places. I certainly have the right to express my opinions (I KNOW I have earned it) just as you have the right to express yours.
Everyone wants to stand up for their program so your response is understandable. With all that said, I am glad you are happy at your program and thank you for sharing your views.
I did interview at Hopkins and spoke with more than 1 anesthesia resident who was unhappy. "I can never make plans to go out at night because I never know when I will get out of the ORs." This was only one of the comments. When someone tells you this at an interview dinner, and then you talk to a couple of other residents the next day who confirm it, it leaves an impression. (Watch, now I will get 10 hopkins residents who disagree). 🙂 I honestly hope I do actually...
Also, one of my friends interviewed at MGH and spoke with several residents there who felt the system was too heirarchial, etc. They also felt like they were overworked and underappreciated by the surgeons. "Cowboy surgeons" was a phrase that was used in that discussion... Were these the couple residents who were bitter and all the rest are happy? Who knows.
Anyways, the decision on which of type of program is right for you is certainly a multi-factorial one. What does "Top Ten" mean anyways? Top Ten hottest nurses, top ten easy schedules, top ten in research, etc.
In my post I attempted to justify where I ranked programs. I interviewed at 5 out of those 10 places. I certainly have the right to express my opinions (I KNOW I have earned it) just as you have the right to express yours.
Everyone wants to stand up for their program so your response is understandable. With all that said, I am glad you are happy at your program and thank you for sharing your views.
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Thanks Tenesma, great peripheral info about MGH. Dont get me wrong, of course the training of the program is first priority, but lifestyle and the general atmosphere of the area is a very important consideration. From the West, but hoping to check out Boston (for some reason, been to most major upper east coast cities except there) later this year. Glad to hear you're enjoying your program. any info about the other boston programs in terms of training and overall happiness?
Well, I'll tell you one thing for sure, and that is that Ricky Williams sucks as# this year. He couldn't even score against the chargers, I mean come on, the chargers. My vote for best back goes to either Priest the beast, Stephen Davis or Ahman Green. I drafted green in the second round and davis in the third in my league, can you belive that?
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ok, getting back to the subject of top ten... here is a personal list based on:
a) resident happiness as perceived by me during interviews/rotations/dinners
b) ability to obtain job of first choice in first choice location as perceived by anesthesiology head-hunters (who I called prior to making my rank list 2 years ago)
c) location of program in an environment where one can go out and see an artistic production, have a quality meal, get wasted and find a ms. right(now) all in one night
d) have a salary that allows for c) without constantly thinking about b)
e) live in an area where you don't expect to be shot at or robbed while walking to work
f) have some decent weather at least during the spring/summer
List for:
a) Cornell, Emory, Michigan, Brigham, Hopkins, MGH, Duke, UCSF, Penn
b) MGH, Brigham, Hopkins, Cornell, Michigan, Duke, UCSF, Emory, Penn, Yale
c) Cornell, Mount Sinai, Columbia, NYU, Emory, UCSF, Brigham, MGH, Penn
d) Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, NYU, Hopkins, Michigan, Penn
e) UCSF, UCSD, Cornell, Sinai, Emory, Duke, Michigan, Brigham, MGH, BID
f) UCSD, UCSF, Emory, Duke, Cornell, Columbia, Sinai, NYU, Penn
Disclaimer: As you can obviously tell my list is very biased toward the Easy Coast and New York specifically. Sorry, call them as I see them. In the end go where you feel you can fit in and succeed. There is no reason to go to a place and be miserable only because you think it will look good on your resume.
ONE MORE THING: Anyone who claims that their program gives them more independence and less "hand holding" is WRONG/MISLED. All of the top programs have a very similar case load and very similar teaching structure. The call frequency is also probably the same, just the way it is structured may make some places appear more "call friendly" than others.
Finally, please, don't turn this reply into an opportnity to defend your program and its reputation. This is my own personal biased opinion. You are entitled to your own. 🙂
a) resident happiness as perceived by me during interviews/rotations/dinners
b) ability to obtain job of first choice in first choice location as perceived by anesthesiology head-hunters (who I called prior to making my rank list 2 years ago)
c) location of program in an environment where one can go out and see an artistic production, have a quality meal, get wasted and find a ms. right(now) all in one night
d) have a salary that allows for c) without constantly thinking about b)
e) live in an area where you don't expect to be shot at or robbed while walking to work
f) have some decent weather at least during the spring/summer
List for:
a) Cornell, Emory, Michigan, Brigham, Hopkins, MGH, Duke, UCSF, Penn
b) MGH, Brigham, Hopkins, Cornell, Michigan, Duke, UCSF, Emory, Penn, Yale
c) Cornell, Mount Sinai, Columbia, NYU, Emory, UCSF, Brigham, MGH, Penn
d) Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, NYU, Hopkins, Michigan, Penn
e) UCSF, UCSD, Cornell, Sinai, Emory, Duke, Michigan, Brigham, MGH, BID
f) UCSD, UCSF, Emory, Duke, Cornell, Columbia, Sinai, NYU, Penn
Disclaimer: As you can obviously tell my list is very biased toward the Easy Coast and New York specifically. Sorry, call them as I see them. In the end go where you feel you can fit in and succeed. There is no reason to go to a place and be miserable only because you think it will look good on your resume.
ONE MORE THING: Anyone who claims that their program gives them more independence and less "hand holding" is WRONG/MISLED. All of the top programs have a very similar case load and very similar teaching structure. The call frequency is also probably the same, just the way it is structured may make some places appear more "call friendly" than others.
Finally, please, don't turn this reply into an opportnity to defend your program and its reputation. This is my own personal biased opinion. You are entitled to your own. 🙂
D
deleted4401
I saw that some people thought that Mayo Clinic had a good program, and that was the one in Rochester.
Well, I guess Mayo Jacksonsville now has a program, and Mayo Scottsdale will have one for the Class of 2005 (my year). Even though these programs always had students rotate them, is it a concern that they have never had their own program?
In general, is it risky to go to a brand new program even if it does have the Mayo name after it (or, e.g. Cleveland Clinic Florida)?
I guess I like the 'Mayo Way' and the tradition and the great facilities, research, technology, but I would not be able to make it through four Rochester winters ...
What do y'all think?
Simul
Well, I guess Mayo Jacksonsville now has a program, and Mayo Scottsdale will have one for the Class of 2005 (my year). Even though these programs always had students rotate them, is it a concern that they have never had their own program?
In general, is it risky to go to a brand new program even if it does have the Mayo name after it (or, e.g. Cleveland Clinic Florida)?
I guess I like the 'Mayo Way' and the tradition and the great facilities, research, technology, but I would not be able to make it through four Rochester winters ...
What do y'all think?
Simul
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I think it's a double-edged sword with a new program. It is great to have the name, but it also depends upon your goal in anesthesia. Do you want to be the foremost bench scientist in academia? If that is the case, neither Jacksonville nor Scottsdale are the right choice for you.
I expect there will be some growing pains in a new program, but the curriculum seems to be set already as Mayo-Jax has had residents rotating from Rochester for years. They have also acquired faculty members from Rochester, so there will be some continuity. Add to all of that the awesome climate of NE Florida and the entire Mayo philosophy and I think we have a winner. Then again, I may be biased as I matched at Mayo-Jax and it was my first choice. I'll be able to speak more intelligently about them in a year or so.
PMMD
I expect there will be some growing pains in a new program, but the curriculum seems to be set already as Mayo-Jax has had residents rotating from Rochester for years. They have also acquired faculty members from Rochester, so there will be some continuity. Add to all of that the awesome climate of NE Florida and the entire Mayo philosophy and I think we have a winner. Then again, I may be biased as I matched at Mayo-Jax and it was my first choice. I'll be able to speak more intelligently about them in a year or so.
PMMD
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"Top 10" is something that can only be accurately be defined by the person who concocting the list. For example, US News uses research dollars as a component of comprising its top med schools list, or top universities list - if you couldn't give a rat's ass about research, then this parameter means nothing & would not necessarily be an important component of how YOU ranked your options. The same concepts applies to residency program hunting.
My advice to you would to define, in terms of your own needs & career aspirations, what is the ideal program. Do not forget to take into account location, family-friendliness (if that is an issue for you), opportunities to do things outside of medicine during your downtime, climate & the social scene. No, these things are not critical to the quality of your training, but can be massively important in the "quaility of life" category, which bears equal weight of importance in my mind.
Simply adopting someone else's top 10 list, in my opinion, is opting for the easy, lazy way out. It takes far more effort to be introspective & honest about yourself & comprise you personal top 10. Furthermore, you wil be far more likely to be honestly happy with where you train as opposed to justifying your disappointment/misery by stating "but this is a top 10 program, sure I am miserable, but this place has a great name". At 3am on endless day number-x, those words will not salve the wounds.
My advice to you would to define, in terms of your own needs & career aspirations, what is the ideal program. Do not forget to take into account location, family-friendliness (if that is an issue for you), opportunities to do things outside of medicine during your downtime, climate & the social scene. No, these things are not critical to the quality of your training, but can be massively important in the "quaility of life" category, which bears equal weight of importance in my mind.
Simply adopting someone else's top 10 list, in my opinion, is opting for the easy, lazy way out. It takes far more effort to be introspective & honest about yourself & comprise you personal top 10. Furthermore, you wil be far more likely to be honestly happy with where you train as opposed to justifying your disappointment/misery by stating "but this is a top 10 program, sure I am miserable, but this place has a great name". At 3am on endless day number-x, those words will not salve the wounds.
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totally agree with that one oldman dave
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I notice that BID and Wash Univ (St. Louis) do not make it in most people's top ten. Any comments about these programs? Also any comments on Emory would be welcome.
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I'm almost afraid to talk about the "top 10" because many people get offended by it. A lot of people that are applying want an idea of what are the recognized top programs across the country, I agree that other factors play into a "personal" top 10, but we must admit that among the academic anesthesia community there is a disparity among training programs. Use the lists you have seen, interview and make your own opinion. There are programs that are consistently listed as "top 10" for a reason.
anways, BIDMC: great program, my 2nd choice. Happy residents, great location, attendings are good about getting you out for lecture (which are 3-4 days per week @4pm) you get to work at Boston Children's and still have the Harvard name. Case load may not be as vast on a daily basis as MGH or Brigham but like other good programs you will get great training.
Emory- in the same class as BI w/o the Harvard name. The chair was great and very pro-resident. There is a CRNA school there so they will be around. From what I remember, they relieve you starting at 3pm... I think. You work at a few hospitals including Grady Memorial... one of the oldest public hospitals in the country... lots of trauma but the facilities itself isn't that bad.
don't have any info on Wash U. good luck.
anways, BIDMC: great program, my 2nd choice. Happy residents, great location, attendings are good about getting you out for lecture (which are 3-4 days per week @4pm) you get to work at Boston Children's and still have the Harvard name. Case load may not be as vast on a daily basis as MGH or Brigham but like other good programs you will get great training.
Emory- in the same class as BI w/o the Harvard name. The chair was great and very pro-resident. There is a CRNA school there so they will be around. From what I remember, they relieve you starting at 3pm... I think. You work at a few hospitals including Grady Memorial... one of the oldest public hospitals in the country... lots of trauma but the facilities itself isn't that bad.
don't have any info on Wash U. good luck.
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I would like to know about Wash U (St louis) too. Ive got an interview there and its kinda out of the way esp if its not worth it.
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I'm not in Anesth... so I don't really know which programs are good, but I know the hospital I'm at has an "average" drug pusher program at best. New chairman from Emory.
But my goodness, all the Anesth Residents at my program always seem to be laughing and having a blast! I rather have super fun during my four years than be a whipping dog at a "top program". Fours years is a LOOONNGGG time.
But my goodness, all the Anesth Residents at my program always seem to be laughing and having a blast! I rather have super fun during my four years than be a whipping dog at a "top program". Fours years is a LOOONNGGG time.
