Total self-study first 2 years?

[artsciencelove]

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Apologies if this subject has been covered before, I could not find anything in a search.

I'm a MS1, nontraditional (engineer), 30's. After my first semester, I have realized that although I love medicine and I was born to be a doctor, I hate the environment and student culture at my school. When classes resume, I'm going to pitch a plan to self-study the rest of my MS1 and MS2 years to the administration.

As far as I know, this isn't formally offered at my school. Are there any schools that offer this type of thing? I remember when I interviewed at (the) OSU, my interviewer mentioned they had allowed a few nontrads to self-study, and their Step 1 scores had been above the class average.

I got good grades and peer/instructor performance reviews in my first semester.

Any advice or knowledge about self-study programs at other schools would be appreciated. Especially data that shows the programs were successful. Thanks. 🙂

 

[FSU2013]

Are your classes required? My school doesn't endorse any sort of self-study, but they only have a few required classes and several people (myself included) rarely were found on campus. I can't imagine a school "endorsing' the idea, but forgiveness may be easier than permission.

 

[artsciencelove]

Lectures are not required, but there are required activities 4 days per week. I stopped attending lecture halfway through the semester, just read my books and supplied class notes. I worked hard and did very well on the exams. I feel like the required activities are to teach the students how to work in a group, and these are skills I already have due to my prior career and life experience. My goal is to travel for the next 18 months and study from the road.

 

[Mass Effect]

Lectures are not required, but there are required activities 4 days per week. I stopped attending lecture halfway through the semester, just read my books and supplied class notes. I worked hard and did very well on the exams. I feel like the required activities are to teach the students how to work in a group, and these are skills I already have due to my prior career and life experience. My goal is to travel for the next 18 months and study from the road.

I doubt they'll allow it and I'm not sure they should. You say that the skills they're teaching you already have, but how do you know? As a first year, you really don't know what your skills are when it comes to medicine nor where they need to be before you move on to third year. If lectures aren't required, then study on your own. I can't really think of any reason they would let you skip out on things on physical exam or clinical skills sessions.

 

[Flamen04]

Why pay thousands of dollars in tuition if you're not even going to bother going to school? I can understand not going to lectures, but not even wanting to go to the other activities makes it seem like you're not really interested.

 

[artsciencelove]

I doubt they'll allow it and I'm not sure they should. You say that the skills they're teaching you already have, but how do you know? As a first year, you really don't know what your skills are when it comes to medicine nor where they need to be before you move on to third year. If lectures aren't required, then study on your own. I can't really think of any reason they would let you skip out on things on physical exam or clinical skills sessions.

We do have 1 required session per week for physical exam/clinical skills. I can see how they might balk at me not being there, and how it might hurt me to miss it. I have already learned how to do a head to toe physical exam and history, now what we do is practice it on different volunteer patients every week. The other required stuff we do is team quizzes and case-based learning. Those are the group skills I was referring to, no problem missing that. Team quizzes are pointless, and I can study the cases from anywhere.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

We do have 1 required session per week for physical exam/clinical skills. I can see how they might balk at me not being there, and how it might hurt me to miss it. I have already learned how to do a head to toe physical exam and history, now what we do is practice it on different volunteer patients every week. The other required stuff we do is team quizzes and case-based learning. Those are the group skills I was referring to, no problem missing that. Team quizzes are pointless, and I can study the cases from anywhere.

Somehow doubt theyre gonna let you bail out on the clinical stuff. I also find it surprising that you've been tested on a complete head to toe exam considering we just got tested on it as second years.

I don't even know if the programs exist that you seem to be thinking of, where you'd essentially be not stepping foot in the school for two years. I know there are programs with "self directed" classes but I believe even those have required clinical components. I find it hard to believe any school would allow this anyway, considering it would show that you could essentially take medical school online. I also don't understand how you propose you take the tests that every other student in your school would be taking if you're studying "on the road".

Whole idea just doesn't make much sense.

 

[topsurgeon2010]

yeah I don't see this working either (there is a reason why your school has the curriculum it does, and I doubt they'll give you special "privileges" of not attending required sessions). Be careful if you're going to ask the administration--may come off the wrong way and may hurt you in the long-run. Just don't attend classes where attendance isn't taken or the sessions aren't required.

 

[startswithb]

We do have 1 required session per week for physical exam/clinical skills. I can see how they might balk at me not being there, and how it might hurt me to miss it. I have already learned how to do a head to toe physical exam and history, now what we do is practice it on different volunteer patients every week. The other required stuff we do is team quizzes and case-based learning. Those are the group skills I was referring to, no problem missing that. Team quizzes are pointless, and I can study the cases from anywhere.

I can't believe you think you don't need to practice H and Ps. It's not a math problem. Halfway done with second year and doing many since day one of medical school, I know I still need a lot of refinement. It's THE art of medicine. Also, if you don't want to learn with your classmates or literally spend any time with them, I can't imagine how you'd be ready for third year or even like it. What's the deal?

 

[Mass Effect]

We do have 1 required session per week for physical exam/clinical skills. I can see how they might balk at me not being there, and how it might hurt me to miss it. I have already learned how to do a head to toe physical exam and history, now what we do is practice it on different volunteer patients every week. The other required stuff we do is team quizzes and case-based learning. Those are the group skills I was referring to, no problem missing that. Team quizzes are pointless, and I can study the cases from anywhere.

So, essentially, your argument is that after one semester of med school, you know all the school can teach you and the rest of medicine you can learn on your own? I seriously doubt this will go over well.

 

[duckie99]

I think you need to get a better attitude bro. I'm sure these required activities don't take up too much of your time. If anything they should only be a boon to your self studies. I do agree sitting in a lecture hall was generally not helpful and I listened to recordings at home to learn. However you can only learn many aspects of medicine by PRACTICING it. I guarantee that you cannot perform an adequate physical exam. I say that based on the simple fact that you are a first year student. Many senior students don't do a fantastic job (though it is usually adequate). You need to learn the books, yes, but there is a lot more to medicine than just that. You'll see this eventually.

And you can pitch your "self study" idea but likely you'll be laughed out of the room. So I suggest you save yourself the embarrassment.

 

[artsciencelove]

I can't believe you think you don't need to practice H and Ps.

I didn't mean to give that impression or make that claim. I still need a lot of work on my H&P skills - I admit I'm pathetic at it. The other roadblock is anatomy lab. I'm not going into surgery, and I think dissecting cadavers mainly a tradition at this point, not the best way to learn human anatomy. Not sure if the school will see it that way.

I think it's a longshot they will let me go do fully self-directed study. The goal is to be on campus as little as possible - right now I have to be there 4 days a week. If I can get out of everything except the 1 H&P activity per week, then I will stay in town and do that.

 

[Textbookversion]

"hai guyz random ms1 here 4 months into school I totz know a perfect H & P no need for practiz"

admin: "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA get out."

Please pitch this and return with your results. I don't get why you think you get to be a special snowflake and not attend any required classes while everyone else has to. Yes we'd all love to use our tuition money to sail around the Bahamas instead of going to required classes... but we'd all love to be billionaires too not going to happen. Medicine is probably the wrong career for you if this is what you think is realistic.

 

[fides]

Apologies if this subject has been covered before, I could not find anything in a search.

I'm a MS1, nontraditional (engineer), 30's. After my first semester, I have realized that although I love medicine and I was born to be a doctor, I hate the environment and student culture at my school. When classes resume, I'm going to pitch a plan to self-study the rest of my MS1 and MS2 years to the administration.

As far as I know, this isn't formally offered at my school. Are there any schools that offer this type of thing? I remember when I interviewed at (the) OSU, my interviewer mentioned they had allowed a few nontrads to self-study, and their Step 1 scores had been above the class average.

I got good grades and peer/instructor performance reviews in my first semester.

Any advice or knowledge about self-study programs at other schools would be appreciated. Especially data that shows the programs were successful. Thanks. 🙂

There is just one thing that irks me about your statement, and coming from a sub-par student you possibly will find this rude considering I am a mere pre-med. If you have already acknowledged that "medicine is your love, and you were born to be a doctor" than I dont see how clinical classes would not be "fun" considering that it is part of medicine. I am assuming that you had a perception about medical school that didnt live up to be what is reality and therefore you have decided to take a different direction with your learning. I also understand that you are in your mid-thirty's and assuming that you have a moderate and patterned dispersion within your medical school, your class is subsequently younger than you therefore the "environment" doesnt cater to your tastes? My response to your original question is going to be two part.

1. As you already know, not everything in life is golden, sometimes you have to suck it up even if you think that "sucking up" is not really beneficial for you, cant always fight against the grain. Required usually tends to be defined as mandatory no exceptions.

2. I dont really see the point, you must have realized what medical school is like, ignoring the money spent in tuition (since in the end no one generalizes medical school classes per capita per time spent in classes as opposed to just getting an MD at the end 😀) you understood the realistic scheduling of an MS regardless of year, to fathom 18 months of self-study while travelling is to be polite, naive. Medical school is Medical school for a reason, if you could learn your entire MS1 and MS2 syllabus on your own, what would be the point?

 

[Wordead]

I didn't mean to give that impression or make that claim. I still need a lot of work on my H&P skills - I admit I'm pathetic at it. The other roadblock is anatomy lab. I'm not going into surgery, and I think dissecting cadavers mainly a tradition at this point, not the best way to learn human anatomy. Not sure if the school will see it that way.

I think it's a longshot they will let me go do fully self-directed study. The goal is to be on campus as little as possible - right now I have to be there 4 days a week. If I can get out of everything except the 1 H&P activity per week, then I will stay in town and do that.

Your problem is that you think you know what is important and what isn't by virtue of being older and having worked. You don't. You're still a clueless M1, as evidenced by your views on cadavers only being relevant to surgery, H+P/PE, group cases, etc.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Your problem is that you think you know what is important and what isn't by virtue of being older and having worked. You don't. You're still a clueless M1, as evidenced by your views on cadavers only being relevant to surgery, H+P/PE, group cases, etc.

👍👍

OP, put up with the few hours of mandatory crap this year, dissect the cadaver, and stop acting like you have any idea about the skills or competencies you can pick and choose to develop. Your past as an engineer has zero bearing on the present. You still get the opportunity to learn most of the book stuff yourself, anyway.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Why pay thousands of dollars in tuition if you're not even going to bother going to school? I can understand not going to lectures, but not even wanting to go to the other activities makes it seem like you're not really interested.

You can't get a medical degree any other way. If you want your M.D., you shell out the cash whether you're going to attend class or not. I don't agree that not going to class or school activities necessarily implies a lack of interest, but even if it did, I couldn't blame anyone who wasn't super enthusiastic about spending yet another afternoon probing through fat and fascia or listening to histology lectures. Regardless of where your interests lie, those activities can get pretty damn tedious.

If you have already acknowledged that "medicine is your love, and you were born to be a doctor" than I dont see how clinical classes would not be "fun" considering that it is part of medicine.

That logic is only going to apply to the most hardcore of people. I don't think I would particularly enjoy spending 8 hours a day listening to lectures about football or Call of Duty. I'm not sure why medicine would be any different.

That said, you definitely do need to get your clinical practice in. I found class (i.e. lecture) to be a complete waste of time, but the clinical opportunities were nice. Yeah, you won't get enough exposure to be a pro (or even decent) at patient interactions, but it's nice to at least have had some experience with clinical environments. I'm not saying I enjoyed them all, but I recognize them as an important part of my education. You should, too.

to fathom 18 months of self-study while travelling is to be polite, naive. Medical school is Medical school for a reason, if you could learn your entire MS1 and MS2 syllabus on your own, what would be the point?

Lots and lots of people learn all of the first two years on their own. If someone had given me the appropriate materials, I'm quite confident I could've learned the first 2 years' worth of material in 6 months of dedicated study. At the very least, it wouldn't have taken anywhere near 2 years. What makes you think that you need school to teach you things? I think online schools would disagree strongly with your viewpoint.

 

[swamprat]

Lots and lots of people learn all of the first two years on their own. If someone had given me the appropriate materials, I'm quite confident I could've learned the first 2 years' worth of material in 6 months of dedicated study. At the very least, it wouldn't have taken anywhere near 2 years. What makes you think that you need school to teach you things? I think online schools would disagree strongly with your viewpoint.

I disagree. 6 months? You must have forgotten how much you didn't know that is now second nature to you since you started. It would take longer than 6 months to learn and master the material from ms1 and ms2 if its all new to you. Whether you need a school to charge you to do it is a different story although I find tests a positive motivating factor.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I really don't think so. It took me about a month - maybe 2 - to get up to speed on studying quickly. All it took after that was figuring out what I needed to be reading so that quickly also meant efficiently. That is, I didn't really study any differently at the end of M2 than I did halfway through the first semester of M1, and I made it through all the material from those two years 3+ times in my 5 weeks of studying for Step 1. Yes, I know it's different because most of that was review, but that'd still leave a solid 4 months at least to see all the material for the first time. I think that's very doable.

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone could or should work at that pace, but I also don't think the recent shift toward year-long (Duke) and 1.5 year (lots of places) basic science curricula is a coincidence. You just don't need 2 years to learn that stuff.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I really don't think so. It took me about a month - maybe 2 - to get up to speed on studying quickly. All it took after that was figuring out what I needed to be reading so that quickly also meant efficiently. That is, I didn't really study any differently at the end of M2 than I did halfway through the first semester of M1, and I made it through all the material from those two years 3+ times in my 5 weeks of studying for Step 1. Yes, I know it's different because most of that was review, but that'd still leave a solid 4 months at least to see all the material for the first time. I think that's very doable.

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone could or should work at that pace, but I also don't think the recent shift toward year-long (Duke) and 1.5 year (lots of places) basic science curricula is a coincidence. You just don't need 2 years to learn that stuff.

I could see 1.5 years (although not 6 months). The middle half of my first year was pretty easy.

Not all people could stay sane enough (including myself I'd say) to cram the first two years in under a year, sorry Superman.

 

[swamprat]

I really don't think so. It took me about a month - maybe 2 - to get up to speed on studying quickly. All it took after that was figuring out what I needed to be reading so that quickly also meant efficiently. That is, I didn't really study any differently at the end of M2 than I did halfway through the first semester of M1, and I made it through all the material from those two years 3+ times in my 5 weeks of studying for Step 1. Yes, I know it's different because most of that was review, but that'd still leave a solid 4 months at least to see all the material for the first time. I think that's very doable.

Of course, I'm not saying that everyone could or should work at that pace, but I also don't think the recent shift toward year-long (Duke) and 1.5 year (lots of places) basic science curricula is a coincidence. You just don't need 2 years to learn that stuff.

Yeah I agree it could be sped up and not take 2 full years.. I mean you don't really need an 8 week summer break between ms1 and ms2 either. But also studying for boards is def a lot more focused esp in regards to ms1 material than when your actually going through ms1. Even if everything was prosected out perfectly for you, memorizing all that anatomy, all those neuro pathways, the biochem pathways and all the other crappy ms1 material in 6 months with it all being brand spankin' new would be a challenge in itself. Idk I guess I couldn't imagine doing it lol

 

[Velour Fog]

Apologies if this subject has been covered before, I could not find anything in a search.

I'm a MS1, nontraditional (engineer), 30's. After my first semester, I have realized that although I love medicine and I was born to be a doctor, I hate the environment and student culture at my school. When classes resume, I'm going to pitch a plan to self-study the rest of my MS1 and MS2 years to the administration.

As far as I know, this isn't formally offered at my school. Are there any schools that offer this type of thing? I remember when I interviewed at (the) OSU, my interviewer mentioned they had allowed a few nontrads to self-study, and their Step 1 scores had been above the class average.

I got good grades and peer/instructor performance reviews in my first semester.

Any advice or knowledge about self-study programs at other schools would be appreciated. Especially data that shows the programs were successful. Thanks. 🙂

Aw come on, we're not that bad! 😳

 

[fides]

You can't get a medical degree any other way. If you want your M.D., you shell out the cash whether you're going to attend class or not. I don't agree that not going to class or school activities necessarily implies a lack of interest, but even if it did, I couldn't blame anyone who wasn't super enthusiastic about spending yet another afternoon probing through fat and fascia or listening to histology lectures. Regardless of where your interests lie, those activities can get pretty damn tedious.
That logic is only going to apply to the most hardcore of people. I don't think I would particularly enjoy spending 8 hours a day listening to lectures about football or Call of Duty. I'm not sure why medicine would be any different.

That said, you definitely do need to get your clinical practice in. I found class (i.e. lecture) to be a complete waste of time, but the clinical opportunities were nice. Yeah, you won't get enough exposure to be a pro (or even decent) at patient interactions, but it's nice to at least have had some experience with clinical environments. I'm not saying I enjoyed them all, but I recognize them as an important part of my education. You should, too.

Lots and lots of people learn all of the first two years on their own. If someone had given me the appropriate materials, I'm quite confident I could've learned the first 2 years' worth of material in 6 months of dedicated study. At the very least, it wouldn't have taken anywhere near 2 years. What makes you think that you need school to teach you things? I think online schools would disagree strongly with your viewpoint.

I didnt mean that it is not something that cant be done, but obviously self study and the some of the material you learn while you attend class is differentiated, there will be some bits of information, some skills, some interactions (whether with the professors, with the other students etc) that you cant learn on your own.

Again my comment about him not attending class was not meant to be taken as literally as going to every class if he believes that medicine is the love of his life. By that statement alone, I meant to imply that not going to a single class in 18 months of medical school doesn't really comply with "I was born to be a doctor", if so than why not atleast attend the Require classes. Also, I do know some people who enjoy football all day and watching COD all day (pro athletes and professional gamers(cant believe these exist but w/e) 😀)

I understand that everything can be done on your own, and obviously medical students are superior academic candidates atleast when considering against the grain but medical school is an immeasurable experience, skipping out on ALL the classes is something I dont see being replaced by self-study. Again my comment is not only directed towards just the academic syllabus.

 

[Mass Effect]

I think it's a longshot they will let me go do fully self-directed study. The goal is to be on campus as little as possible - right now I have to be there 4 days a week. If I can get out of everything except the 1 H&P activity per week, then I will stay in town and do that.

What are the other activities?

 

[ArcGurren]

As far as lectures go, if you don't have to go to them or they're podcast/scribed, then by all means don't if you learn better at home on your own at your own pace. That's what I did.

As for bailing out on the clinical stuff/cadaver dissection, your view of it is so beyond whacked stupid that it's unbelievable. There's always a couple of cocky MS1s who think they know everything, and you're no exception

 

[45408]

I'm going to pitch a plan to self-study the rest of my MS1 and MS2 years to the administration.

My goal is to travel for the next 18 months and study from the road.

No, they won't let you do this. I understand that a lot of the structured lectures/didactics are better replaced with self-study, and I skipped a lot of lectures, but they won't let you, and I think you're wasting your time by asking. They might not be pleased that you even try to ask this.

 

[Ismet]

I didn't mean to give that impression or make that claim. I still need a lot of work on my H&P skills - I admit I'm pathetic at it. The other roadblock is anatomy lab. I'm not going into surgery, and I think dissecting cadavers mainly a tradition at this point, not the best way to learn human anatomy. Not sure if the school will see it that way.

Dissecting is actually an excellent way to learn anatomy. I could read the syllabus and stare at Netter's/Rohen's all day, but until I saw it in lab, 3D and tangible, it didn't stick. Everyone learns differently of course, but I think the majority of people in my class found anatomy lab very beneficial. And you're very naive for thinking that anatomy is only for surgery.

It's great that you already have "life experience," but that doesn't mean you are exempt from the required group work. You say you work well in a group? Prove it by sucking it up and doing the group work with your classmates. My class has a ton of non-trads, even a few people in their mid-30s, and they participate in all the mandatory activities. Why? Because even though they have 10+ years on those of us straight out of college, we are all at the same, equal level right now. We are all clueless MS1's who are going through this together. Save yourself the embarrassment and don't pitch this to administration.

 

[jl lin]

Yea, I am finding the OP post confusing. I mean what's the point of going to school if you're not really in school? I mean I'm all for independent learning, but this sounds off. OP what do you mean by traveling while in MS?

Confused.

 

[jl lin]

Also, I was required to take A&P I and II in college for nursing. I think it's tough to try to really learn it with pictures or even drawing or using animals. Personally, I am looking forward to Gross Anatomy--horrible stench and all.

 

[JP2740]

Dissecting is actually an excellent way to learn anatomy. I could read the syllabus and stare at Netter's/Rohen's all day, but until I saw it in lab, 3D and tangible, it didn't stick. Everyone learns differently of course, but I think the majority of people in my class found anatomy lab very beneficial. And you're very naive for thinking that anatomy is only for surgery.

It's great that you already have "life experience," but that doesn't mean you are exempt from the required group work. You say you work well in a group? Prove it by sucking it up and doing the group work with your classmates. My class has a ton of non-trads, even a few people in their mid-30s, and they participate in all the mandatory activities. Why? Because even though they have 10+ years on those of us straight out of college, we are all at the same, equal level right now. We are all clueless MS1's who are going through this together. Save yourself the embarrassment and don't pitch this to administration.

I still remember when certain body parts are referenced in ultrasound and other rads sessions. I can picture my cadaver in front of me, and actually flashback to scoping out that area. Very helpful.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Apologies if this subject has been covered before, I could not find anything in a search.

I'm a MS1, nontraditional (engineer), 30's. After my first semester, I have realized that although I love medicine and I was born to be a doctor, I hate the environment and student culture at my school. When classes resume, I'm going to pitch a plan to self-study the rest of my MS1 and MS2 years to the administration.

As far as I know, this isn't formally offered at my school. Are there any schools that offer this type of thing? I remember when I interviewed at (the) OSU, my interviewer mentioned they had allowed a few nontrads to self-study, and their Step 1 scores had been above the class average.

I got good grades and peer/instructor performance reviews in my first semester.

Any advice or knowledge about self-study programs at other schools would be appreciated. Especially data that shows the programs were successful. Thanks. 🙂

OP, if you want to do a self-study, just go do it. Don't show up to anything that is not absolutly required and read on your own. This is what I do, personally.

 

[tiedyeddog]

We do have 1 required session per week for physical exam/clinical skills. I can see how they might balk at me not being there, and how it might hurt me to miss it. I have already learned how to do a head to toe physical exam and history, now what we do is practice it on different volunteer patients every week. The other required stuff we do is team quizzes and case-based learning. Those are the group skills I was referring to, no problem missing that. Team quizzes are pointless, and I can study the cases from anywhere.

I know this is an old thread and OP might not see it, but the non-trad thing referenced at ohio state in the OP's first post is kind of not "self-study". The program (called ISP) is ending this year and still has weekly requirements, as in a lecture every week or so and weekly small group sessions. You also schedule exams and take them on your own. There are required OSCE's.

No administration in the country is going to let you do this. I am guessing OP has figured this out by now.