Tough bleeding case

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Old rad onc

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49 yo with widely metastatic adeno CA of base of tongue. In liver, adrenal , bones, brain being treated in academic center in Nashville. He is end stage and was on opdivo for a year. He has been bleeding heavily for 3 weeks from urinary tract. They see a 3-4 cm mass in left kidney. Urologist called and they see nothing up to the bladder. He is transfused every 3 days w Hemoglobin of 6 and platelets 25 k. Med Onc has scheduled an appt w Rad Onc on June 8. They have told pt that radiation will damage kidney and he might need immediate dialysis. If it were me I would treat mass in kidney maybe 300-400 x3. What is the consensus?

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Is the mass situated/connected to the renal pelvis. If yes, the likehood of it being the source of bleeding is high and I would treat. Given his terminal condition, I do not expect him to live long enough to experience any long-term side effects of RT to the kidney.
"Immediate dialysis"? Why? What is his current kidney function?
 
49 yo with widely metastatic adeno CA of base of tongue. In liver, adrenal , bones, brain being treated in academic center in Nashville. He is end stage and was on opdivo for a year. He has been bleeding heavily for 3 weeks from urinary tract. They see a 3-4 cm mass in left kidney. Urologist called and they see nothing up to the bladder. He is transfused every 3 days w Hemoglobin of 6 and platelets 25 k. Med Onc has scheduled an appt w Rad Onc on June 8. They have told pt that radiation will damage kidney and he might need immediate dialysis. If it were me I would treat mass in kidney maybe 300-400 x3. What is the consensus?
Wait, "they" as in his current Medical Oncology team have told the patient that if he gets palliative XRT to the mass, the damage might be so swift and severe he might need "immediate dialysis"?

Ignoring everything else about that statement...does he still have both kidneys?
 
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Can get nuc med renal function study. If kidneys working well based on renal function and labs, I would give more dose than what you've proposed. I worry that 400cGy x 3 will not be enough to control it.

I do SBRT for kidneys and would use high dose with MRI-guidance for maximum effect and precision targeting. The dose would depend on location in the kidney and what techniques you have for IGRT/motion management.
 
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8 Gy x 1; especially if the patient has a less than 3 month life expectancy. Small series from Brazil for GI bleeding from malignancy did not have a difference between 30 Gy / 10 fractions vs 8 Gy / 1; retrospective, single institution of course.

 
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He has not had renal function officially checked but according to Med Onc has 70% function from both kidneys. Thanks for the response!
 
He has not had renal function officially checked but according to Med Onc has 70% function from both kidneys. Thanks for the response!
70% in a 49 year old should be more than enough. Even if you "kill" the one kidney with RT (which wont happen), he still has 35% left which is more than enough to keep him off dialysis (provided a symmetrical distribution of kidney function).

If that didn't work, every living kidney donor would need to be put on dialysis.
 
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8 Gy x 1; especially if the patient has a less than 3 month life expectancy. Small series from Brazil for GI bleeding from malignancy did not have a difference between 30 Gy / 10 fractions vs 8 Gy / 1; retrospective, single institution of course.


Needs more dose. I wouldn't go super high on bowel, but you could on kidney.

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Med onc is talking out their a**. The tumor and adjacent parenchyma have almost 0 renal function. Even if the kidney was taken out he would be unlikely to need dialysis unless hes already a stage IV-V ckd patient.

Nuclear renal study offers almost no benefit here as it shows relative split function, not absolute. So if it shows 50/50, no reason not to act on the bleeding kidney. More likely you;ll see something like 40/60 with the majority of function in the unaffected kidney The only reason to hesitate would be if the contralateral kidney is absent or atrophic, which you could tell from CT scan.

I am somewhat skeptical about bleeding control with SBRT in this setting. If patient has a decent life expectancy would consider radical or partial nephrectomy. If we're in purely palliative mode though, give it a shot. Percutaneous ablation is unlikely to be successful as it is presumably central/involving the collecting system, where the urine and hilar vessels act as a heat/cold sink making it hard to heat/cool the tumor enough to do the trick. Another option could be ureteroscopy with laser ablation of tumor, though success rate on that would likely be modest.
 
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49 yo with widely metastatic adeno CA of base of tongue. In liver, adrenal , bones, brain being treated in academic center in Nashville. He is end stage and was on opdivo for a year. He has been bleeding heavily for 3 weeks from urinary tract. They see a 3-4 cm mass in left kidney. Urologist called and they see nothing up to the bladder. He is transfused every 3 days w Hemoglobin of 6 and platelets 25 k. Med Onc has scheduled an appt w Rad Onc on June 8. They have told pt that radiation will damage kidney and he might need immediate dialysis. If it were me I would treat mass in kidney maybe 300-400 x3. What is the consensus?
Dealers choice. I personally like your proposal. I don't personally think there is any need for something highly conformal or SBRT-like in this case. Purely palliative and at doses that shouldn't hurt anything close by and it doesn't take much dose to help with bleeding. I would do something simple you could start quickly.

As for your ignorant colleague, either ignore them all together (since they clearly feel comfortable spitting out utter nonsense without consulting experts) or kindly point them in the right direction the next time you have to interact with them. If it really was an honest mistake and they are open to learning, you might help them be a better doctor. If they really are a pompous douche that thinks IO has no bad side effects and that palliative radiation kills people, they are not worth the air it would take to tell them just how ignorant they are about radiobiology and renal physiology. It can be hard sometimes, but I am sure you have enough else going on in your life. Just let it go.
 
do your best to avoid the other kidney...

Also, looking at a kidney right now that measures 3 x 4 x 9 cm in a little old lady. Can probably avoid alot of this kidney ap/pa, wedged pair, etc, without being cute. I'm mostly talking to the md onc here.
 
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Med onc is talking out their a**. The tumor and adjacent parenchyma have almost 0 renal function. Even if the kidney was taken out he would be unlikely to need dialysis unless hes already a stage IV-V ckd patient.

Nuclear renal study offers almost no benefit here as it shows relative split function, not absolute. So if it shows 50/50, no reason not to act on the bleeding kidney. More likely you;ll see something like 40/60 with the majority of function in the unaffected kidney The only reason to hesitate would be if the contralateral kidney is absent or atrophic, which you could tell from CT scan.

I am somewhat skeptical about bleeding control with SBRT in this setting. If patient has a decent life expectancy would consider radical or partial nephrectomy. If we're in purely palliative mode though, give it a shot. Percutaneous ablation is unlikely to be successful as it is presumably central/involving the collecting system, where the urine and hilar vessels act as a heat/cold sink making it hard to heat/cool the tumor enough to do the trick. Another option could be ureteroscopy with laser ablation of tumor, though success rate on that would likely be modest.
Radiation can work very well for bleeding control. I would use an SBRT dose of 36-42 Gy in 3 fractions, depending on bowel proximity. Renal function will almost certainly be fine.
 
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Actually surprised at the recs for SBRT. This is end stage disease. You see the data for single fraction bleeding control. This is consistent with my experience btw. Bleeding is usually fixed with any standard palliative regimen. I have also used quad shot for larger tumors or tumors that pose catastrophic risk with growth short term (airway).

While I will be rapid arcing a fair bit of spine mets under APM to avoid acute esophageal toxicity, I think I will still be using simplest, shortest and cheapest reasonable plan in settings like this.
 
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Radiation can work very well for bleeding control. I would use an SBRT dose of 36-42 Gy in 3 fractions, depending on bowel proximity. Renal function will almost certainly be fine.

I will admit to having little experience with palliating renal bleeding with xrt. I have not seen good results in patients dying of bladder cancer though. Not sure if comparing apples and oranges here.
 
I will admit to having little experience with palliating renal bleeding with xrt. I have not seen good results in patients dying of bladder cancer though. Not sure if comparing apples and oranges here.
That is surprising. Bleeding from bladder tumors tends to respond pretty well. But there is variation in everything. It can work very nicely for these renal tumors. It can work for most histologies by obliterating the abnormal oozy little angiogenic pseudovessels the tumors haphazardly throw together that cause a lot of mucosal bleeding. But again...there is variation to everything. Nothing works all the time.
Actually surprised at the recs for SBRT. This is end stage disease.
Me too. This sounds like very end stage. Not sure what the extra dose buys you.
 
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That is surprising. Bleeding from bladder tumors tends to respond pretty well. But there is variation in everything. It can work very nicely for these renal tumors. It can work for most histologies by obliterating the abnormal oozy little angiogenic pseudovessels the tumors haphazardly throw together that cause a lot of mucosal bleeding. But again...there is variation to everything. Nothing works all the time.

Me too. This sounds like very end stage. Not sure what the extra dose buys you.
Agree that SBRT not probably needed here after actually reading the first post in detail. But from a devils advocate standpoint, my dosimetrist and I can do most SBRT plans just as quick as multi field 3D. Here I would use 1-3 fractions, so visits are minimal and in an APM world, cost=same (although secondary malignant neoplasm of kidney not on initial list)
 
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Thanks for the advice and help. Pt will be getting XRT after all. I believe in the combined brain power of SDN Rad Onc is equal to The Force!
 
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I will admit to having little experience with palliating renal bleeding with xrt. I have not seen good results in patients dying of bladder cancer though. Not sure if comparing apples and oranges here.
I will make a point of contention over "I have not seen good results." One of a million papers below. If you have an advanced bladder ca patient with refractory, problematic hematuria, getting that bleeding to stop is a rad onc's bailiwick. And you'll do your patients a kindness by letting the rad onc see them. We try to education primary care physicians about this.

 
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They have told pt that radiation will damage kidney and he might need immediate dialysis.
Seriously? And this is coming from the same pieces of sh** who completely ignore the rate of high grade toxicities from ipi/nivo?

"It's OK if I do it... but if you do it, it's wrong"
 
Curious to those that would do SBRT to this lesion - Insurance wouldn't push back?
 
Curious to those that would do SBRT to this lesion - Insurance wouldn't push back?
I think there is a 0% chance I would get SBRT coverage for a patient with widely metastatic disease (like this).

Maybe. Depends on the insurance. I can always do something similar and call it IMRT.
This is what I typically do and in this case it would be easy. You can argue that you need the conformality to spare normal kidney. The fact that the patient probably won't live long enough to experience any toxicity (or the fact the would probably not have any clinical complications even if you blew that kidney out) actually doesn't factor into their algorithms. Figuring out the algorithms is the key to working with these people. Most of the docs on the line are not douche lords who club baby seals for fun (that is the people they work for). They just have to work within very rigid constraints. If you know those constraints, you can find a way to get the outcome that most closely matches your goal. If you go in blind, have fun because logic will get you almost no where.

and in an APM world, cost=same (although secondary malignant neoplasm of kidney not on initial list)
There are pros and cons to the APM but palliative patients will be winners for sure. Who is going to continue doing 3DCRT plans to palliate visceral or abdominopelvic lymph nodes anymore when VMAT will give you a better plan and a faster treatment? And I may be getting into the philosophical realm here, but with the APM will there even be such thing as SBRT anymore? As neuronoix pointed out above its really just a billing term with a few technical differences from IMRT. Its always fun trying to teach residents what constitutes SBRT and explain why 6 Gy x 5 for adjuvant melanoma is not SBRT but a conformal 6 Gy x 5 plan for a pelvic lymph node is.
 
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I will make a point of contention over "I have not seen good results." One of a million papers below. If you have an advanced bladder ca patient with refractory, problematic hematuria, getting that bleeding to stop is a rad onc's bailiwick. And you'll do your patients a kindness by letting the rad onc see them. We try to education primary care physicians about this.


Fair, thanks for the link. Will happily involve radonc in these difficult patients. N of these is fortunately small and I have a few that stick out that failed xRT, then embolization, and ended up with lifelong neph tubes.
 
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Interesting Twitter thread from Spratt et al about how to approach trials for SBRT for RCC. The problem is to my knowledge, data is limited to smallish case series, though looks promising.

The current landscape is surgery is considered gold standard, partial for T1a and most T1b. Cure rate about 95% for T1a, 90-95% for t1b, and lower as stage move up. Almost all robo/lap except for huge masses or IVC invasion. Perc ablation has similar survival for T1a, but higher local failure rate and is usually used for very small masses or poor surgical candidates. Like prostate, survival based trials are tricky since a small minority of patients with localized RCC will die of the disease.

My thought would be if you want to break into the field, start with a RCT vs perc ablation for pT1a disease. Shouldn’t be too hard to accrue (referring urologist doesn’t care which modality patient gets). If equivalent outcomes could easily take percs place in the treatment arsenal while being less finnicky about tumor size and location (and hopefully operator skill). Will also be key to see how effective salvage options are after local failure. If superior local control rates then go for the trial against partial, but that will be a monster effort to accrue both due to urology reticence and the rising role of active surveillance. You could also consider a trial of sbrt to kidney in setting of metastatic disease, but even if it is equivalent to surgery in that regard it remains unclear now much benefit surgery has there.
 
Interesting Twitter thread from Spratt et al about how to approach trials for SBRT for RCC. The problem is to my knowledge, data is limited to smallish case series, though looks promising.

The current landscape is surgery is considered gold standard, partial for T1a and most T1b. Cure rate about 95% for T1a, 90-95% for t1b, and lower as stage move up. Almost all robo/lap except for huge masses or IVC invasion. Perc ablation has similar survival for T1a, but higher local failure rate and is usually used for very small masses or poor surgical candidates. Like prostate, survival based trials are tricky since a small minority of patients with localized RCC will die of the disease.

My thought would be if you want to break into the field, start with a RCT vs perc ablation for pT1a disease. Shouldn’t be too hard to accrue (referring urologist doesn’t care which modality patient gets). If equivalent outcomes could easily take percs place in the treatment arsenal while being less finnicky about tumor size and location (and hopefully operator skill). Will also be key to see how effective salvage options are after local failure. If superior local control rates then go for the trial against partial, but that will be a monster effort to accrue both due to urology reticence and the rising role of active surveillance. You could also consider a trial of sbrt to kidney in setting of metastatic disease, but even if it is equivalent to surgery in that regard it remains unclear now much benefit surgery has there.
Trial design important. If GFR is measured and mass limited to small size Perc ablation could win out.
 
Med onc is talking out their a**. The tumor and adjacent parenchyma have almost 0 renal function. Even if the kidney was taken out he would be unlikely to need dialysis unless hes already a stage IV-V ckd patient.

Nuclear renal study offers almost no benefit here as it shows relative split function, not absolute. So if it shows 50/50, no reason not to act on the bleeding kidney. More likely you;ll see something like 40/60 with the majority of function in the unaffected kidney The only reason to hesitate would be if the contralateral kidney is absent or atrophic, which you could tell from CT scan.

I am somewhat skeptical about bleeding control with SBRT in this setting. If patient has a decent life expectancy would consider radical or partial nephrectomy. If we're in purely palliative mode though, give it a shot. Percutaneous ablation is unlikely to be successful as it is presumably central/involving the collecting system, where the urine and hilar vessels act as a heat/cold sink making it hard to heat/cool the tumor enough to do the trick. Another option could be ureteroscopy with laser ablation of tumor, though success rate on that would likely be modest.

RCC embolization is a thing in palliative setting for bleed. Instant results. Hematuria is an indication. Can refer to IR if you want to shake this one off in the weekend.
 
What's wrong with 20/5 or quadshot? SBRT for what sounds like a perihospice patient is unnecessary. Is the consensus that this is a bleeding RCC and not a met from his diffusely metastatic H&N squam?

Lol at med onc's answer though. 'Immediate' dialysis. Haha.
 
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What's wrong with 20/5 or quadshot? SBRT for what sounds like a perihospice patient is unnecessary. Is the consensus that this is a bleeding RCC and not a met from his diffusely metastatic H&N squam?

Lol at med onc's answer though. 'Immediate' dialysis. Haha.
To soothe your troubled kidneys, may I offer some... cisplatin?
 
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