Training in Psychotherapy

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Tangerine123

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Psych resident in Germany here. As part of our training we need 250 hours of supervised Psychotherapy. And an extra 150 Hours of Psychotherapy ourselves (as patients)

We have to chose between 3 types of Psychotherapy

*Cognitive Behavioral
*Depth Psychology (Tiefenpsychologie), basically modified Psychoanalysis.
*Systemic therapy

I was leaning more towards Deep Psychology (Tiefenpsychologie) because I've been interested in the works of Freud and Jung, and it also dabs into other personal interests of mine in the field of Philosophy (Phenomenology).

A con of Tiefenpsychologie is that I'm not sure if it's recognized outside of Germany. We've talked with my Partner about moving to Spain or Sweden in the future, no concrete plans so far.

Some topics i'm (currently) interested in are adolescents/young adults, BPD, Trauma, Gender/Sexuality

If it were allowed, I would chose Logotherapy. But it is not generally accepted in the German healthcare system. I know CBT has more evidence and is more applicable and practical, but I honestly find it quite boring....

Any thoughts, tips, or insights? :)

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Depends on your goals. I found CBT boring as well but it's effective and practical. I use it all the time in private practice because patients see that it works quickly which keeps them motivated. Most patients don't want to do psychoanalysis
 
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Do you want to pursue therapy training as an academic or personal pursuit? Sure, go for the deep psychology. Do you want to pursue the training as a way to actually help people in clinical practice? Go for the CBT.
 
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I second CBT. The reality is CBT you can apply it broadly, in multiple situations, and can do brief bits of it with patients. I think if you had to pick one therapy to learn the ideal way to go would be the therapy that has the most potential for use.
 
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Psych resident in Germany here. As part of our training we need 250 hours of supervised Psychotherapy. And an extra 150 Hours of Psychotherapy ourselves (as patients)

We have to chose between 3 types of Psychotherapy

*Cognitive Behavioral
*Depth Psychology (Tiefenpsychologie), basically modified Psychoanalysis.
*Systemic therapy

I was leaning more towards Deep Psychology (Tiefenpsychologie) because I've been interested in the works of Freud and Jung, and it also dabs into other personal interests of mine in the field of Philosophy (Phenomenology).

A con of Tiefenpsychologie is that I'm not sure if it's recognized outside of Germany. We've talked with my Partner about moving to Spain or Sweden in the future, no concrete plans so far.

Some topics i'm (currently) interested in are adolescents/young adults, BPD, Trauma, Gender/Sexuality

If it were allowed, I would chose Logotherapy. But it is not generally accepted in the German healthcare system. I know CBT has more evidence and is more applicable and practical, but I honestly find it quite boring....

Any thoughts, tips, or insights? :)
Agree with the rest. Make sure you learn CBT theory/case formulation/techniques as a core competency first and branch out from there.

And, similar to another poster, I find a lot of the newer CBT literature a bit boring and repetitive. If you do too, you should really check out the older stuff, say, pre-2000s. For whatever reasons, the CBT author's writings back then seem a bit more eclectic and interesting and much heavier on theory and case formulation than on techniques, procedures, and worksheets/forms. Back in the day, a good CBT therapist was expected to innovate their own implementation procedures and forms by-and-large and customize them to the situation/case.
 
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The fact is, again and again, it is proven empirically that the method of therapy matters less than the therapeutic relationship itself.

I'd say choose what is more interesting for you. CBT is definitely practical. Psychoanalysis may be more interesting for you. I have no idea what systemic therapy is.
 
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I hate to say it but CBT, while boring, is a necessary component of your training.

I think depth psychology is extremely helpful. For me, personally, it has been necessary- I would be much diminished as a psychiatrist and also as a human being without it.

So, do both! Even if you have to get outside training. Now is the time.
 
The fact is, again and again, it is proven empirically that the method of therapy matters less than the therapeutic relationship itself.

I'd say choose what is more interesting for you. CBT is definitely practical. Psychoanalysis may be more interesting for you. I have no idea what systemic therapy is.

Very little is "proven" in science, and this is a very contentious issue. The common factors research is somewhat sloppy in that they collapsed disparate diagnoses into broad categories, thus flattening out potential effect sizes. For depression, common factors is likely the biggest driver of outcome, but in certain anxiety diagnoses, it is much less important than the treatments.
 
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My training was psychodynamically oriented, so I'm biased. I will not pretend to be fantastic at CBT but I think it is easier to pick up quickly, with minimal training. Once you are done with training, you are unlikely to later become proficient with psychodynamics. Agree with annoyedpsychiatrist that CBT is broadly applicable, but I've found a psychodynamic understanding helps me more with my most difficult patients.
 
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Very little is "proven" in science, and this is a very contentious issue. The common factors research is somewhat sloppy in that they collapsed disparate diagnoses into broad categories, thus flattening out potential effect sizes. For depression, common factors is likely the biggest driver of outcome, but in certain anxiety diagnoses, it is much less important than the treatments.

For sure. You see this play out in real life for therapists who “treat” phobias or OCD with supportive or psychodynamicish therapy.
 
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Can you choose to practice CBT as the supervised modality and undergo the psychoanalytic form? Probably what I would choose to do as actually experiencing psychoanalysis will likely give you a pretty solid foundational knowledge of it. And yes, psychoanalysis is still performed widely. Last year I was able to speak with several Scandanavian psychologists at an international meeting and they all utilized it to some extent.
 
My training was more dynamic than CBT but I did do a great deal of both. I agree with others: CBT is easier to implement in a standard practice and many patients cannot tolerate psychodynamic (but also many can't tolerate CBT but can tolerate psychodynamic) work. My experience is that CBT was easier to learn, but I'm not sure which one I'm really better at.

For me the reason I would not choose CBT in your situation is that I couldn't tolerate receiving 150 hours of CBT on myself. That's 10-12 complete courses!!! What on earth would be being done in 150 sessions of CBT on someone who doesn't have a disorder? I can't imagine it would be a good experience or an example of appropriately executed CBT.

150 hours of dynamic work on the other hand sounds rather reasonable. Maybe a bit longer than average - it could be just a year-and-a-half of biweekly or ~9 months of short-term analysis-level care.

150 hours of analysis wouldn't even scratch the surface of what it's like to receive analysis. More like 650-750 hours (4 days a week, 46 weeks a year, 3-5 years).
 
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The fact is, again and again, it is proven empirically that the method of therapy matters less than the therapeutic relationship itself.

I'd say choose what is more interesting for you. CBT is definitely practical. Psychoanalysis may be more interesting for you. I have no idea what systemic therapy is.

 
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If you’re interested in high volume, shorter appointment, med focused practice: CBT.

If you’re interested in low volume, prolonged appointments, psychology focused: psychoanalysis.

Likely depends on which part of Germany you’re in. Frankfurt probably has less time than whatever that hippy town is.
 
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If you want to practice therapy in Sweden as a psychiatrist, CBT is the way to go. As other posters have mentioned, it’s possible to use bits of it without doing the full thing. Psychodynamic therapy (not psychoanalysis) is theoretically possible but not practical due to time constraints. Psychoanalysis hasn’t been used by anyone here for decades now.
 
My training was more dynamic than CBT but I did do a great deal of both. I agree with others: CBT is easier to implement in a standard practice and many patients cannot tolerate psychodynamic (but also many can't tolerate CBT but can tolerate psychodynamic) work. My experience is that CBT was easier to learn, but I'm not sure which one I'm really better at.

For me the reason I would not choose CBT in your situation is that I couldn't tolerate receiving 150 hours of CBT on myself. That's 10-12 complete courses!!! What on earth would be being done in 150 sessions of CBT on someone who doesn't have a disorder? I can't imagine it would be a good experience or an example of appropriately executed CBT.

150 hours of dynamic work on the other hand sounds rather reasonable. Maybe a bit longer than average - it could be just a year-and-a-half of biweekly or ~9 months of short-term analysis-level care.

150 hours of analysis wouldn't even scratch the surface of what it's like to receive analysis. More like 650-750 hours (4 days a week, 46 weeks a year, 3-5 years).
I agree that CBT (let alone that much if it) doesn't make sense for someone who doesn't have a problem.

My question is whatever is a generally mentally healthy human doing in 750 hours of analysis? It really doesn't make an iota of sense to me that such a time-intensive, labor-intensive, expensive intervention is reserved for the highest functioning individuals. If you are already high functioning enough to both tolerate and afford intensive psychoanalysis, yet can't identify a concrete issue such as could be addressed with CBT, I question the need for psychotherapy in the first place.

Wouldn't you be better off using that time to learn to play the guitar, run a marathon, or what have you, rather than paying someone to help you contemplate your navel?
 
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Wouldn't you be better off using that time to learn to play the guitar, run a marathon, or what have you, rather than paying someone to help you contemplate your navel?

750 hours of a highly educated, high-ish status person seriously attending to Me and My Important Thoughts is very reinforcing for some people.
 
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Very little is "proven" in science, and this is a very contentious issue. The common factors research is somewhat sloppy in that they collapsed disparate diagnoses into broad categories, thus flattening out potential effect sizes. For depression, common factors is likely the biggest driver of outcome, but in certain anxiety diagnoses, it is much less important than the treatments.
I agree that, for example, CBT-ERP makes the most sense for someone with OCD. However, to spend hundreds of hours training CBT seems like a waste of time when any decent therapist can pick it up from a manual. These manualized interventions are great, but if you watch beck on video doing CBT therapy, a lot of what makes her great (not talking about her dad) is not just the manualized intervention. It is the soft skills that the therapist learns and grows with practice/experience.

I guess to more directly respond to the OP, I'm saying the OP should get training in whatever interests them the most. They will probably become just as skilled a therapist if they are interested in the psychodynamic style, and train in that style rather than go for CBT.
 
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I agree that, for example, CBT-ERP makes the most sense for someone with OCD. However, to spend hundreds of hours training CBT seems like a waste of time when any decent therapist can pick it up from a manual. These manualized interventions are great, but if you watch beck on video doing CBT therapy, a lot of what makes her great (not talking about her dad)
And...we're back to Freud.
 
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I agree that, for example, CBT-ERP makes the most sense for someone with OCD. However, to spend hundreds of hours training CBT seems like a waste of time when any decent therapist can pick it up from a manual. These manualized interventions are great, but if you watch beck on video doing CBT therapy, a lot of what makes her great (not talking about her dad) is not just the manualized intervention. It is the soft skills that the therapist learns and grows with practice/experience.

I guess to more directly respond to the OP, I'm saying the OP should get training in whatever interests them the most. They will probably become just as skilled a therapist if they are interested in the psychodynamic style, and train in that style rather than go for CBT.

Having supervised a good amount of therapy for anxiety disorders, there is a HUGE difference in people who learned CBT via "just reading a manual" vs. actually being trained in CBT. I've seen a lot of people butcher key aspects of the therapy enough to make it unrecognizable for thos eof us who actually know what we are doing.
 
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CBT and depth psychology both have evidence for efficacy even if the former has more. I'm disheartened by people in this thread who are underestimating the training and careful work needed to learn any type of psychotherapy, CBT or otherwise.
 
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CBT and depth psychology both have evidence for efficacy even if the former has more. I'm disheartened by people in this thread who are underestimating the training and careful work needed to learn any type of psychotherapy, CBT or otherwise.

This exactly. One of the reasons some people get turned off from therapy is because they have had incompetent, bad therapy by poorly trained providers.
 
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CBT and depth psychology both have evidence for efficacy even if the former has more. I'm disheartened by people in this thread who are underestimating the training and careful work needed to learn any type of psychotherapy, CBT or otherwise.
I mean, yea, kinda sorta.

"Depth Psychology" (not really sure what you mean by this though) has its place, but then the question is always, could we have gotten this person closer to their stated functional goals within a CBT framework, right?

Formal Psychotherapy is not the end-all-be-all of a personal journey, nor should it be. There is only so much a psychotherapist and psychiatrist can really do for many people's life problems. We really shouldn't be taking ALL of that on in our work. We simply do not have the time, resources, or frankly, ability to do all that.

Agree with the comments about CBT training though. Following explanatory models of psychopathology and fidelity to the treatment/treatment goals is important, but that line is difficulty to learn and takes years. No, you won't really get that from a typically psychiatry residency in the US and a Beckian therapy manual.
 
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I mean, yea, kinda sorta.

"Depth Psychology" (not really sure what you mean by this though) has its place, but then the question is always, could we have gotten this person closer to their stated functional goals within a CBT framework, right?

Depth Psychology = psychodynamic psychotherapy for the most part.

I agree. I think about what approach would fit best with the patient in front of me: a psychodynamic one vs CBT vs other. I want to be equipped with a variety of tools to use depending on what problem the patient brings to me or when one approach isn't working well. It's tough that OP has to choose only one.
 
Depends on your goals. I found CBT boring as well but it's effective and practical. I use it all the time in private practice because patients see that it works quickly which keeps them motivated. Most patients don't want to do psychoanalysis

CBT is definitely boring. It's psychodynamic psychotherapy for dummies. Or as my former supervisor and mentor who is big in CBT says, "Everything ends up psychodynamic."
 
CBT is definitely boring. It's psychodynamic psychotherapy for dummies. Or as my former supervisor and mentor who is big in CBT says, "Everything ends up psychodynamic."
What may be "boring" to you is not relevant here. This is not about you.

I don't know what "everything ends up psychodynamic" means, as one cannot prove that at all. That's just a confirmation-bias talking...right? You can't prove this about CBT either, mind you. But we can at least start with treatments that have measurable behavioral and functional outcomes and built-in treatment goals, no?
 
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What may be "boring" to you is not relevant here. This is not about you.

You do realize psychiatrists have an "About Me" or "My Interests" section on their websites? It is 100% about me, vis a vis the patient.

I can do CBT if I choose, or refer out to a 23 year old SW who "does CBT". I can choose to do meds only (but I find that boring, because again, it is 100% about me). Some of us choose to limit ourselves to only children, only seniors, only criminals, only addicts, only people who like electrodes & retrograde amnesia, or only whatever because we find other populations or modalities boring.

Therapy is a procedure. Though every GS can do hemorrhoidectomies all day, some GS will decline in favor of doing lap choles all day.
 
You do realize psychiatrists have an "About Me" or "My Interests" section on their websites? It is 100% about me, vis a vis the patient.

I can do CBT if I choose, or refer out to a 23 year old SW who "does CBT". I can choose to do meds only (but I find that boring, because again, it is 100% about me). Some of us choose to limit ourselves to only children, only seniors, only criminals, only addicts, only people who like electrodes & retrograde amnesia, or only whatever because we find other populations or modalities boring.

Therapy is a procedure. Though every GS can do hemorrhoidectomies all day, some GS will decline in favor of doing lap choles all day.
I do NOT "realize." If I "realized".... I would agree with you, right? I do not like such internet-based popular slang in professional discussions. I find it condescending.

To answer the question though: No, sorry. I did not know that one can pick and choose what is first-line evidence-based medicine/psychiatric care based on their own personal preference/persuasion. That would be news to me. The demographics and age-range of what you agree to treat is of course yours though. I get that. No problem here. But the fact that you find CBT 'boring" does not make it any less empirically true. Thus, this is not a medically legitimate excuse not to use it, right?

And no, psychotherapy is not a "procedure." That's just silly/wishful thinking.

And Again, how do you reconcile your mentor's statement of "Everything ends up Psychodynamic" with the extant empirical literature in psychopathology. I'm not even sure what that means, but it comes across to me as "unsupported poppy-cock"
 
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Here’s a cool study which may be of interest. Looks the same but the # of CBT sessions was much less.

 
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And with the shift in the field equating all 'evidence-based psychotherapy' with manualized treatments that has occurred primarily over the past 20 years, recent grads don't appear to generally be as well-trained as traditionally trained cognitive and cognitive-behavioral therapists in terms of their fundamental understanding of the theory and science underlying the specific techniques and staging of the techniques in a particular manualized form of treatment such that any significant co-morbidities, lack of motivation, personality traits/disorders, or other complicating factors tend to throw them off quite a bit. It definitely takes more than just 'pick up a book off of Amazon' to learn to be a competent, flexible and sophisticated psychotherapist no matter what your theoretical orientation. It's a generalization. I'm sure there are some programs/mentors who are doing a better job than the mainstream but they're probably the exception. Those who think CBT is just 'pick up the manual and follow the steps' don't really understand the approach. Traditionally, it is a much more theory-rich, flexible, sophisticated and nuanced approach than the majority of the recently published workbooks/manuals. One excellent updated resource on how CBT should ideally be taught and practiced is David F. Tolin's excellent (but humbly entitled) book 'Doing CBT.' Another good resource is Case Studies in Clinical Psychological Science where there is an excellent chapter on how to approach dissociative identity disorder from a CBT perspective. CBT isn't, as an approach, 'inherently boring.' There are just cardboard cutout shallow approaches to CBT that have sadly become increasingly 'the norm' over the last couple of decades to the point where anyone who can get a patient to fill out a thought record or engage in behavioral activation is considered to have achieved some sort of epic level of mastery. To be a truly competent cognitive behavioral therapist requires excellent generalist training in how to be a good therapist--in general--as a core competency. Then learning how to expertly utilize a Socratic (rather than prescriptive) approach to produce cognitive change (and behavioral change) on the part of the client. All of this takes place in the context of understanding basic psychological science, the logical empirical approach (formulating hypotheses an carefully testing them via data collection), case formulation, literature review, and then application to the individual case. Not surprisingly, a rather large meta-analysis of the efficacy of cognitive behavioral therapy for depression found that the 'effect size' of CBT for depression appears to have 'shrunk' over the past few decades (roughly HALF of what it once was?). Basically, newer trials aren't observing the amount of improvement over the course of therapy, in general, as was the case in the older studies. Lots of things could explain it but my money is on the difference in the quality of the training as well as the hyper-focus on everything being predetermined (down to detailed agendas session-by-session being pre-written prior to even the first encounter with the client). Anyone who tries to implement most of these manuals figures out really quick that the cases that just 'go smoothly' and perfectly according to pre-laid plans represent the exceptions rather than the rule.
 
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There's definitely a lot of intersection between CBT and psychodynamic therapy.
When you end up talking about schemas in CBT (kind of inevitable), you end up talking about patterns of behavior rooted in relationships, usually in childhood..etc, which is ... what a lot of psychodynamic therapists do.

I am one of those who get frustrated by the over reliance on structure in CBT and preferred the more spontaneous/fluid nature of psychodynamic therapy. That probably had to do with how CBT is 'prescribed' these days, x sessions with a very set agenda for each session.

I do think ultimately it's all about the connection and exploring experiences.
 
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I agree that CBT (let alone that much if it) doesn't make sense for someone who doesn't have a problem.

My question is whatever is a generally mentally healthy human doing in 750 hours of analysis? It really doesn't make an iota of sense to me that such a time-intensive, labor-intensive, expensive intervention is reserved for the highest functioning individuals. If you are already high functioning enough to both tolerate and afford intensive psychoanalysis, yet can't identify a concrete issue such as could be addressed with CBT, I question the need for psychotherapy in the first place.

Wouldn't you be better off using that time to learn to play the guitar, run a marathon, or what have you, rather than paying someone to help you contemplate your navel?

I think you're missing the point a bit.
You could be high functional but have maladaptive patterns that are say limiting you in your career or your personal life.
Most people are not at all aware of what is holding them back. If they were, they probably would've fixed this already.
Even the highest 'functioning' people in society will have blind spots and issues to work on.
I think the whole point of analysis is to really allow you to know yourself better. Coming 3 or even 4 times a week will uncover some things that simply would not be uncovered in a weekly session (due to resistance). Increased contact means a more intense relationship and hence more arena for exploration. I think this is all fairly intuitive. It can get dicey though if this lasts say for years on years. But I don't think that's really ever the objective of analysis.

Also important to point out that there are so many ways of doing psychoanalysis that we can be talking about completely different things. The field has to a large degree moved on from Freud (though not completely).
Interpersonal, intersubjective, or even Kleinian psychoanalysis look absolutely nothing like the stereotype of the 'neutral' and detached analyst sitting in his chair and blurting out interpretations.

Ultimately imo there will always be a place for a 'deeper understanding'. You're just not going to do this with homework and 12 sessions.
 
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There's definitely a lot of intersection between CBT and psychodynamic therapy.
When you end up talking about schemas in CBT (kind of inevitable), you end up talking about patterns of behavior rooted in relationships, usually in childhood..etc, which is ... what a lot of psychodynamic therapists do.

I am one of those who get frustrated by the over reliance on structure in CBT and preferred the more spontaneous/fluid nature of psychodynamic therapy. That probably had to do with how CBT is 'prescribed' these days, x sessions with a very set agenda for each session.

I do think ultimately it's all about the connection and exploring experiences.

Was going to say something similar. For me CBT has more practical applications for common issues that might apply generally to a range of different patients (eg. sleep hygiene, panic attacks), but I find myself using a dynamic framework with my longer term patients, especially those who don’t appear to be as responsive to medications, have revealed long standing relationship problems over the course of time and require something more individually tailored to their situation.
 
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I think you're missing the point a bit.
You could be high functional but have maladaptive patterns that are say limiting you in your career or your personal life.
Most people are not at all aware of what is holding them back. If they were, they probably would've fixed this already.
Even the highest 'functioning' people in society will have blind spots and issues to work on.
I think the whole point of analysis is to really allow you to know yourself better. Coming 3 or even 4 times a week will uncover some things that simply would not be uncovered in a weekly session (due to resistance). Increased contact means a more intense relationship and hence more arena for exploration. I think this is all fairly intuitive. It can get dicey though if this lasts say for years on years. But I don't think that's really ever the objective of analysis.

Also important to point out that there are so many ways of doing psychoanalysis that we can be talking about completely different things. The field has to a large degree moved on from Freud (though not completely).
Interpersonal, intersubjective, or even Kleinian psychoanalysis look absolutely nothing like the stereotype of the 'neutral' and detached analyst sitting in his chair and blurting out interpretations.

Ultimately imo there will always be a place for a 'deeper understanding'. You're just not going to do this with homework and 12 sessions.
Yeah. Cosmetic psychiatry. It's not that I don't get it. It's just that I think it's not a very good use of a medical education.

In four hours per week for 12-20 weeks, I can fix four people with disabling OCD or panic disorder... Or help one wealthy neurotic individual get a fraction of the way toward "knowing [them]self better". Hm.


**Also: How could therapy without homework ever be more efficacious than therapy with homework? Regardless of your orientation, don't you want your patient to actually apply the insights from the therapy to their life outside the room? Otherwise what can you possibly have accomplished?
 
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Yeah. Cosmetic psychiatry. It's not that I don't get it. It's just that I think it's not a very good use of a medical education.

In four hours per week for 12-20 weeks, I can fix four people with disabling OCD or panic disorder... Or help one wealthy neurotic individual get a fraction of the way toward "knowing [them]self better". Hm.
Oh, you fix people? I thought that was something only urologists and obgyns did.
 
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Yeah. Cosmetic psychiatry. It's not that I don't get it. It's just that I think it's not a very good use of a medical education.

In four hours per week for 12-20 weeks, I can fix four people with disabling OCD or panic disorder... Or help one wealthy neurotic individual get a fraction of the way toward "knowing [them]self better". Hm.


**Also: How could therapy without homework ever be more efficacious than therapy with homework? Regardless of your orientation, don't you want your patient to actually apply the insights from the therapy to their life outside the room? Otherwise what can you possibly have accomplished?

Call it cosmetic if you want, but I’d wager to say that having a richer life, better relationships with your spouse and family, a more rewarding career are high on the list of priorities of many, probably more so than “playing the guitar and running a marathon”.
We get it, you have an axe to grind against analysis but I think it would help to broaden your perspective.
Btw analysis can and has been used with much sicker individuals. Where did psychodynamic therapy come from?
 
Call it cosmetic if you want, but I’d wager to say that having a richer life, better relationships with your spouse and family, a more rewarding career are high on the list of priorities of many, probably more so than “playing the guitar and running a marathon”.
All that stuff is also highly achievable with a structured, goal-oriented therapeutic approach, in a shorter timeframe. Removing the structure and defined goal just makes it take way longer to do the same thing.
Btw analysis can and has been used with much sicker individuals.
Toward what end? Do you have a reference?
 
Very unfortunate to see both psychoanalytic and CBT approaches being caricatured in this thread presumably by people who are not so familiar with one or the other.

Lets consider some of the stereotypes/myths described above in turn:

1. It is easy to learn CBT and anyone can do it.
This is partially true but a vast oversimplification. In the UK, they have "low intensity CBT therapists" now for many years who have little training and can effectively provided basic interventions for uncomplicated depression and anxiety. But how many patients (particularly seen by psychiatrists) have uncomplicated mood or anxiety disorders? It is well recognized that it takes a higher level of skill, training, and professional education to work effectively with patients with PTSD, other trauma related disorders, eating disorders, OCD, somatoform disorders, addictive disorders, psychosis and bipolar disorders. So yes, it has been demonstrated that not much training is required to deal with basic uncomplicated depression, panic disorder, and social anxiety disorder, there are many patients who need more skilled therapists.

We also know therapist effects are very relevant to effectiveness outcomes. For example in the TADS study for adolescent depression there were significant center effects for CBT with patients doing much worse at certain institutions than others even in the context of an RCT.

2. CBT is paint by numbers manualized therapy, while psychoanalytic therapies are not.
There are actually several psychoanalytically based interventions which are manualized including Dynamic Interpersonal Therapy, Panic-Focused Psychotherapy, and Luborsky's supportive psychotherapy based on the core conflictual relationship model (CCRM). Additionally, not all CBT interventions are heavily manualized. In fact the initial manual for cognitive therapy for depression by Beck et al (which was the first such) provided a lot of flexibility and was not very rigid in its application. Manuals were necessary to operationalize treatment to ensure fidelity and uniformity in clinical trials, but in practice experienced therapists will use manuals as a starting point and deviate as necessary.

3. CBT is boring.
This is partially true. Some patients can benefit from very simple behavioral interventions that do not take much skill or have much depth to them. However, patients with more complex presentations do have more depth and CBT provides a framework for understanding and formulating patients problems and working through them. Identifying problematic patterns of thinking, dysfunctional beliefs, and core beliefs can be very illuminated and "insight oriented" for patients. Similarly, identifying clinically relevants behaviors (CRBs) in session and working through such behaviors in sessions as they come up in the therapist-patient relationship is not dissimilar from mutative interpretations made in the transference affect. Good CBT therapists do not forget the role of emotion, and for more complex patients understanding the role of develop is very important in developing good formulations/conceptualizations to guide treatment.

There are a wide range of techniques and theories beyond classic CBT including using mindfulness, DBT techniques, ACT, compassion focused therapy, functional analytic psychotherapy, relational frame theory, and hypnosis. You can also bring in imagery, metaphors, and play with language in CBT based interventions. Put simply, when working with more complex patients, only boring uninspired therapists will find CBT boring or limited in its offerings.

4. Psychoanalytic approaches require years and multiple sessions per week unlike CBT.
While psychoanalysis is typically defined as 3-5 sessions per week and is of several years duration, many psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approaches can be weekly or twice weekly in duration. While many patients are treated over years, even Freud treated some patients in a single session. Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy and Dynamic Interpersonal Psychotherapy are two such approaches and there are many other patients who benefit from short term dynamic oriented psychotherapy. Patients with more simple problems or a narrow goal or focus can be treated with a small number of sessions whereas where the focus becomes underlying personality structure, treatment will be of longer duration. Put simply, the more lofty or unfocused the goal of therapy is, the longer its duration regardless of modality.

Conversely, CBT approaches can be provided multiple times per week (for example cognitive processing therapy can be done daily and some people offer CBT intensives where they see patients for daily treatment). In addition, CBT for problems such as personality disorders is typically provided over years.

5. CBT is for patients with psychopathology whereas psychoanalytic approaches are meant for growth.
This is totally untrue. People can see either approach regardless of whether they have a psychopathological diagnosis or not and CBT techniques can be very helpful for personal improvement (e.g. developing negotiating skills, organizational skills, improving relationships, improving work habits, understanding thinking traps and core beliefs). Conversely, most people seeking psychoanalytic approaches have serious psychiatric disorders these days.

David Barlow had proposed that we distinguish between psychological treatments and psychotherapy. He regarded psychological treatments as psychological interventions targeting psychopathology or specific diagnoses, whereas psychotherapy was more focused on personal growth and problems of living. Nowhere did he suggest that one specific modality was better for for each despite his behaviorist inclinations.

6. Only patients with problems in living or simple neuroses undergo psychoanalysis.
While this may have been true in the mid-20th century, this has not been true for over 50 years. While the above might apply to those who are in psychoanalytic training doing their training analysis, the overwhelming majority of patients seeking psychoanalysis in the US today do so as a treatment of last resort. They tend to be patients with serious personality disorder, complex trauma history, borderline personality organization, narcissistic pathology, refractory depression, eating disorders, and severe relational disturbances. In the present era, few individuals have the money, time, or inclination to engage in psychoanalysis for their own personal curiosity or lofty goals of self understanding and improvement.

7. CBT and psychoanalytic approaches are diametrically opposed.
While there are some significant differences between the therapist stance, the structure of sessions, the focus, and the way cases are conceptualized, there are many similarities, and many patients benefit from approaches integrating the two (which commonly occurs in clinical practice). There are also several psychotherapies developed that do combine the approaches including cognitive analytic therapy (CAT), schema focused therapy, and functional analytic psychotherapy. acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), while regarded as being as based on CBT is also recognized as not being wedded to CBT and is recognized as being easily integrated into a psychoanalytic framework.

8. Psychoanalytic approaches are not evidenced-based whereas CBT is evidence-based.
One of the reasons why CBT approaches were very successful was that Beck was persuaded by John Rush, who was his resident at the time to study cognitive therapy "like a drug" so he endeavored to use controlled studies and rating scales and manualize and operationalize the therapy. Of course, in the real world there is quite a lot of variation from this (for good and for ill) which means that the applicability of this evidence base to clinical practice becomes somewhat more limited. Psychoanalytic approaches started off published based on case histories, and while Freud himself was concerned they "lacked the serious stamp of science" it took many years to subvert the thinking that psychoanalytic approaches were some how impervious to being studied in a similar way to other clinical interventions with controlled trials. There are of course substantial limitations to such an approach, but it is not impossible.

In addition, while it is true that the evidence base for psychoanalysis itself is quite limited (see: de Maat S, de Jonghe F, de Kraker R, Leichsenring F, Abbass A, Luyten P, Barber JP, Rien Van, Dekker J. The current state of the empirical evidence for psychoanalysis: a meta-analytic approach. Harv Rev Psychiatry. 2013 May-Jun;21(3):107-37), there is considerable evidence for psychoanalytic psychotherapy and psychoanalytic-informed approaches which include mentalization based treatment, transference focused psychotherapy, dynamic interpersonal therapy, and panic-focused psychotherapy.

See:
Steinert C, Munder T, Rabung S, Hoyer J, Leichsenring F. Psychodynamic Therapy: As Efficacious as Other Empirically Supported Treatments? A Meta-Analysis Testing Equivalence of Outcomes. Am J Psychiatry. 2017 Oct 1;174(10):943-953
Milrod B, Leon AC, Busch F, Rudden M, Schwalberg M, Clarkin J, Aronson A, Singer M, Turchin W, Klass ET, Graf E, Teres JJ, Shear MK. A randomized controlled clinical trial of psychoanalytic psychotherapy for panic disorder. Am J Psychiatry. 2007 Feb;164(2):265-72
Gerber AJ, Kocsis JH, Milrod BL, Roose SP, Barber JP, Thase ME, Perkins P, Leon AC. A quality-based review of randomized controlled trials of psychodynamic psychotherapy. Am J Psychiatry. 2011 Jan;168(1):19-28.
McCarthy KS, Chambless DL, Solomonov N, Milrod B, Barber JP. Twelve-Month Outcomes Following Successful Panic-Focused Psychodynamic Psychotherapy, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, or Applied Relaxation Training for Panic Disorder. J Clin Psychiatry. 2018 Sep 11;79(5):17m11807
Leichsenring F, Rabung S. Effectiveness of long-term psychodynamic psychotherapy: a meta-analysis. JAMA. 2008 Oct 1;300(13):1551-65.
Fonagy P, Lemma A, Target M, O'Keeffe S, Constantinou MP, Ventura Wurman T, Luyten P, Allison E, Roth A, Cape J, Pilling S. Dynamic interpersonal therapy for moderate to severe depression: a pilot randomized controlled and feasibility trial. Psychol Med. 2020 Apr;50(6):1010-1019
Bateman A, Constantinou MP, Fonagy P, Holzer S. Eight-year prospective follow-up of mentalization-based treatment versus structured clinical management for people with borderline personality disorder. Personal Disord. 2021 Jul;12(4):291-299.
Bateman A, Fonagy P. Randomized controlled trial of outpatient mentalization-based treatment versus structured clinical management for borderline personality disorder. Am J Psychiatry. 2009 Dec;166(12):1355-64.
Rost F, Luyten P, Fearon P, Fonagy P. Personality and outcome in individuals with treatment-resistant depression-Exploring differential treatment effects in the Tavistock Adult Depression Study (TADS). J Consult Clin Psychol. 2019 May;87(5):433-445.
Fonagy P, Rost F, Carlyle JA, McPherson S, Thomas R, Pasco Fearon RM, Goldberg D, Taylor D. Pragmatic randomized controlled trial of long-term psychoanalytic psychotherapy for treatment-resistant depression: the Tavistock Adult Depression Study (TADS). World Psychiatry. 2015 Oct;14(3):312-21.
Doering S, Hörz S, Rentrop M, Fischer-Kern M, Schuster P, Benecke C, Buchheim A, Martius P, Buchheim P. Transference-focused psychotherapy v. treatment by community psychotherapists for borderline personality disorder: randomised controlled trial. Br J Psychiatry. 2010 May;196(5):389-95.
 
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Very unfortunate to see both psychoanalytic and CBT approaches being caricatured in this thread presumably by people who are not so familiar with one or the other.

Lets consider some of the stereotypes/myths described above in turn:

1. It is easy to learn CBT and anyone can do it.
This is partially true but a vast oversimplification. In the UK, they have "low intensity CBT therapists" now for many years who have little training and can effectively provided basic interventions for uncomplicated depression and anxiety. But how many patients (particularly seen by psychiatrists) have uncomplicated mood or anxiety disorders? It is well recognized that it takes a higher level of skill, training, and professional education to work effectively with patients with PTSD, other trauma related disorders, eating disorders, OCD, somatoform disorders, addictive disorders, psychosis and bipolar disorders. So yes, it has been demonstrated that not much training is required to deal with basic uncomplicated depression, panic disorder, and social anxiety disorder, there are many patients who need more skilled therapists.

We also know therapist effects are very relevant to effectiveness outcomes. For example in the TADS study for adolescent depression there were significant center effects for CBT with patients doing much worse at certain institutions than others even in the context of an RCT.

2. CBT is paint by numbers manualized therapy, while psychoanalytic therapies are not.
There are actually several psychoanalytically based interventions which are manualized including Dynamic Interpersonal Therapy, Panic-Focused Psychotherapy, and Luborsky's supportive psychotherapy based on the core conflictual relationship model (CCRM). Additionally, not all CBT interventions are heavily manualized. In fact the initial manual for cognitive therapy for depression by Beck et al (which was the first such) provided a lot of flexibility and was not very rigid in its application. Manuals were necessary to operationalize treatment to ensure fidelity and uniformity in clinical trials, but in practice experienced therapists will use manuals as a starting point and deviate as necessary.

3. CBT is boring.
This is partially true. Some patients can benefit from very simple behavioral interventions that do not take much skill or have much depth to them. However, patients with more complex presentations do have more depth and CBT provides a framework for understanding and formulating patients problems and working through them. Identifying problematic patterns of thinking, dysfunctional beliefs, and core beliefs can be very illuminated and "insight oriented" for patients. Similarly, identifying clinically relevants behaviors (CRBs) in session and working through such behaviors in sessions as they come up in the therapist-patient relationship is not dissimilar from mutative interpretations made in the transference affect. Good CBT therapists do not forget the role of emotion, and for more complex patients understanding the role of develop is very important in developing good formulations/conceptualizations to guide treatment.

There are a wide range of techniques and theories beyond classic CBT including using mindfulness, DBT techniques, ACT, compassion focused therapy, functional analytic psychotherapy, relational frame theory, and hypnosis. You can also bring in imagery, metaphors, and play with language in CBT based interventions. Put simply, when working with more complex patients, only boring uninspired therapists will find CBT boring or limited in its offerings.

4. Psychoanalytic approaches require years and multiple sessions per week unlike CBT.
While psychoanalysis is typically defined as 3-5 sessions per week and is of several years duration, many psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approaches can be weekly or twice weekly in duration. While many patients are treated over years, even Freud treated some patients in a single session. Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy and Dynamic Interpersonal Psychotherapy are two such approaches and there are many other patients who benefit from short term dynamic oriented psychotherapy. Patients with more simple problems or a narrow goal or focus can be treated with a small number of sessions whereas where the focus becomes underlying personality structure, treatment will be of longer duration. Put simply, the more lofty or unfocused the goal of therapy is, the longer its duration regardless of modality.

Conversely, CBT approaches can be provided multiple times per week (for example cognitive processing therapy can be done daily and some people offer CBT intensives where they see patients for daily treatment). In addition, CBT for problems such as personality disorders is typically provided over years.

5. CBT is for patients with psychopathology whereas psychoanalytic approaches are meant for growth.
This is totally untrue. People can see either approach regardless of whether they have a psychopathological diagnosis or not and CBT techniques can be very helpful for personal improvement (e.g. developing negotiating skills, organizational skills, improving relationships, improving work habits, understanding thinking traps and core beliefs). Conversely, most people seeking psychoanalytic approaches have serious psychiatric disorders these days.

David Barlow had proposed that we distinguish between psychological treatments and psychotherapy. He regarded psychological treatments as psychological interventions targeting psychopathology or specific diagnoses, whereas psychotherapy was more focused on personal growth and problems of living. Nowhere did he suggest that one specific modality was better for for each despite his behaviorist inclinations.

6. Only patients with problems in living or simple neuroses undergo psychoanalysis.
While this may have been true in the mid-20th century, this has not been true for over 50 years. While the above might apply to those who are in psychoanalytic training doing their training analysis, the overwhelming majority of patients seeking psychoanalysis in the US today do so as a treatment of last resort. They tend to be patients with serious personality disorder, complex trauma history, borderline personality organization, narcissistic pathology, refractory depression, eating disorders, and severe relational disturbances. In the present era, few individuals have the money, time, or inclination to engage in psychoanalysis for their own personal curiosity or lofty goals of self understanding and improvement.

7. CBT and psychoanalytic approaches are diametrically opposed.
While there are some significant differences between the therapist stance, the structure of sessions, the focus, and the way cases are conceptualized, there are many similarities, and many patients benefit from approaches integrating the two (which commonly occurs in clinical practice). There are also several psychotherapies developed that do combine the approaches including cognitive analytic therapy (CAT), schema focused therapy, and functional analytic psychotherapy. acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), while regarded as being as based on CBT is also recognized as not being wedded to CBT and is recognized as being easily integrated into a psychoanalytic framework.

8. Psychoanalytic approaches are not evidenced-based whereas CBT is evidence-based.
One of the reasons why CBT approaches were very successful was that Beck was persuaded by John Rush, who was his resident at the time to study cognitive therapy "like a drug" so he endeavored to use controlled studies and rating scales and manualize and operationalize the therapy. Of course, in the real world there is quite a lot of variation from this (for good and for ill) which means that the applicability of this evidence base to clinical practice becomes somewhat more limited. Psychoanalytic approaches started off published based on case histories, and while Freud himself was concerned they "lacked the serious stamp of science" it took many years to subvert the thinking that psychoanalytic approaches were some how impervious to being studied in a similar way to other clinical interventions with controlled trials. There are of course substantial limitations to such an approach, but it is not impossible.

In addition, while it is true that the evidence base for psychoanalysis itself is quite limited (see: de Maat S, de Jonghe F, de Kraker R, Leichsenring F, Abbass A, Luyten P, Barber JP, Rien Van, Dekker J. The current state of the empirical evidence for psychoanalysis: a meta-analytic approach. Harv Rev Psychiatry. 2013 May-Jun;21(3):107-37), there is considerable evidence for psychoanalytic psychotherapy and psychoanalytic-informed approaches which include mentalization based treatment, transference focused psychotherapy, dynamic interpersonal therapy, and panic-focused psychotherapy.

See:
Steinert C, Munder T, Rabung S, Hoyer J, Leichsenring F. Psychodynamic Therapy: As Efficacious as Other Empirically Supported Treatments? A Meta-Analysis Testing Equivalence of Outcomes. Am J Psychiatry. 2017 Oct 1;174(10):943-953
Milrod B, Leon AC, Busch F, Rudden M, Schwalberg M, Clarkin J, Aronson A, Singer M, Turchin W, Klass ET, Graf E, Teres JJ, Shear MK. A randomized controlled clinical trial of psychoanalytic psychotherapy for panic disorder. Am J Psychiatry. 2007 Feb;164(2):265-72
Gerber AJ, Kocsis JH, Milrod BL, Roose SP, Barber JP, Thase ME, Perkins P, Leon AC. A quality-based review of randomized controlled trials of psychodynamic psychotherapy. Am J Psychiatry. 2011 Jan;168(1):19-28.
McCarthy KS, Chambless DL, Solomonov N, Milrod B, Barber JP. Twelve-Month Outcomes Following Successful Panic-Focused Psychodynamic Psychotherapy, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, or Applied Relaxation Training for Panic Disorder. J Clin Psychiatry. 2018 Sep 11;79(5):17m11807
Leichsenring F, Rabung S. Effectiveness of long-term psychodynamic psychotherapy: a meta-analysis. JAMA. 2008 Oct 1;300(13):1551-65.
Fonagy P, Lemma A, Target M, O'Keeffe S, Constantinou MP, Ventura Wurman T, Luyten P, Allison E, Roth A, Cape J, Pilling S. Dynamic interpersonal therapy for moderate to severe depression: a pilot randomized controlled and feasibility trial. Psychol Med. 2020 Apr;50(6):1010-1019
Bateman A, Constantinou MP, Fonagy P, Holzer S. Eight-year prospective follow-up of mentalization-based treatment versus structured clinical management for people with borderline personality disorder. Personal Disord. 2021 Jul;12(4):291-299.
Bateman A, Fonagy P. Randomized controlled trial of outpatient mentalization-based treatment versus structured clinical management for borderline personality disorder. Am J Psychiatry. 2009 Dec;166(12):1355-64.
Rost F, Luyten P, Fearon P, Fonagy P. Personality and outcome in individuals with treatment-resistant depression-Exploring differential treatment effects in the Tavistock Adult Depression Study (TADS). J Consult Clin Psychol. 2019 May;87(5):433-445.
Fonagy P, Rost F, Carlyle JA, McPherson S, Thomas R, Pasco Fearon RM, Goldberg D, Taylor D. Pragmatic randomized controlled trial of long-term psychoanalytic psychotherapy for treatment-resistant depression: the Tavistock Adult Depression Study (TADS). World Psychiatry. 2015 Oct;14(3):312-21.
Doering S, Hörz S, Rentrop M, Fischer-Kern M, Schuster P, Benecke C, Buchheim A, Martius P, Buchheim P. Transference-focused psychotherapy v. treatment by community psychotherapists for borderline personality disorder: randomised controlled trial. Br J Psychiatry. 2010 May;196(5):389-95.

Well said. I find functional analytic psychotherapy particularly fascinating. Reading about it is like stepping into a bizarre alternate timeline where transference was discovered by BF Skinner.
 
Well said. I find functional analytic psychotherapy particularly fascinating. Reading about it is like stepping into a bizarre alternate timeline where transference was discovered by BF Skinner.

Had a supervisor in grad school who did this. Only got a taste of this with one patient before that supervisor got recruited away. If I had stayed with more therapy, I definitely would have pursued some deeper training in that methodology.
 
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Coming back to OP--are you able to find out if potential supervisors are also trained in other/related modalities? Given your interests, DBT/CPT/EMDR might be things that "CBT" supervisors could supervise you in. I'd especially highlight DBT as being directly relevant to all four of your interests.

If you do choose psychodynamics, I think it can also be very useful. My experience was that the processes of the therapy and of supervision in the therapy as well as the theory were more directly aimed at case formulation. That skill can be helpful in any future modality that you might want to pick up.
 
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This has been an interesting discussion so far, Thank you!

So you have to undergo the same therapy you chose to practice. There is a way around this requirement, and most people end up doing it. Some places are licensed to provide the therapy in groups. It means you can go from 150 individual therapy sessions to 10 group therapy "weekends" spread out during your 5 years of training

We have the chance to enroll in EMDR Workshops. We also have a ward for Borderline PD and Bipolar Disorder patients were DBT is used.

I talked to another colleague and he told me it's hard to get depth psychology recognized in other countries outside of Germany, unlike CBT.

The whole CBT training can be completed at my hospital. However, you have to fund part of your training and arrange seminars and sessions outside of the hospital for Psychodynamic therapy.

Considering all of this, I'll go for CBT now, and explore the others along the way
 
Only thing I was going to add is psychotherapy training is life-long. There's no one best type of psychotherapy. The amount of knowledge and experience to make you a better provider cannot be mastered in a lifetime.
 
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