Transferring credits to foreign school after dismissal

[Smiths11]

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Hi everyone,

I got dismissed my 2nd year of Medical School due to multiple failures. I believe that the only option I have now to become a doctor is to go overseas. Would I have to start all over again? Or can I transfer my 1st year credits and start from Year 2? Are there any foreign schools that would accept 1st year credits to transfer?

Also this is a separate topic, but if I do graduate from a foreign school, how bad are my chances for anything other than IM, FM, Peds, Psych? None of those fields interest me. I have always wanted EM, Anesthesia or possibly Radiology. How much better of a board score compared to U.S. graduates would I need to match in any of those. Can anyone point me to the right direction on this topic?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Doctor Bob]

if I do graduate from a foreign school, how bad are my chances for anything other than IM, FM, Peds, Psych? None of those fields interest me. I have always wanted EM, Anesthesia or possibly Radiology.

What will keep you out of these fields will not be your foreign medical school diploma alone (although that will make it an uphill battle).
The thing that will keep you out of those fields will be the foreign medical school diploma combined with a history of US med school failure.
TBH, that combination will keep you out of most/all fields because residency programs aren't going to be hot to interview you.

So ask yourself is the extra debt you are going to take on by going overseas is worth it.
If you failed out of a US med school where the dropout/failure rate is very low because the schools tend to do everything they can to support the students, then what are the odds that you will do well in a system where the failure/dropout rate is much higher because there is not as much institutional support? What have you fixed about your study habits that will make you likely to succeed in that sort of system?

 

[Smiths11]

I was dealing with a crisis in my personal life that was the core cause of the dismissal. I have this documented with a psych evaluation. The personal issue is done with, and so now I am sure that I can do well if I repeated 2nd year.

So will having a documented excuse for my failure help me get matched, or will the residencies not care at all?

 

[Doctor Bob]

So will having a documented excuse for my failure help me get matched, or will the residencies not care at all?

Not so much. I mean... it won't hurt, but it's not a proverbial 'get out of jail free' card. A failure is still a failure.

From my standpoint when I review applications, my thought process is this: ok, so you had multiple failures. Regardless of whatever else was going on in your life, why didn't the first failure make you stop and take a leave of absence? If this event in your life was so overwhelming as to preclude you from being able to do well in school, why didn't you take the time off at that point? Every school has an LOA mechanism. So to me, the failures seem more multifactorial. Am I willing to take a risk on a student when I have hundreds of applications from people with clean records? That answer is always a no.

 

[Smiths11]

Not so much. I mean... it won't hurt, but it's not a proverbial 'get out of jail free' card. A failure is still a failure.

From my standpoint when I review applications, my thought process is this: ok, so you had multiple failures. Regardless of whatever else was going on in your life, why didn't the first failure make you stop and take a leave of absence? If this event in your life was so overwhelming as to preclude you from being able to do well in school, why didn't you take the time off at that point? Every school has an LOA mechanism. So to me, the failures seem more multifactorial. Am I willing to take a risk on a student when I have hundreds of applications from people with clean records? That answer is always a no.

But what about the fact that the failures were all concentrated in one semester? I was really borderline, and so it could have gone the other way as well. But it's not as if I failed a few classes in semester 1, and then continued on to semester 2 without thinking of LOA. By the time I realized that it may be a problem, it was already too late for a LOA.

And what about the fact that if I do get into a foreign school, and my grades are fine for my repeated 2nd year, and shelf exams all go just fine as well, with a solid Step 1 score, would that not all overshadow my miserable record in one semester?

Also, wouldn't a higher than average Step 1 score (if I can reach that) compensate for my dismissal?

I know what you are saying, that my dismissal + IMG is a bad combination. So are you saying that most students who are dismissed and go overseas have grim chances of matching with anything, let alone something semi-competitive like EM? Most dismissed students don't get accepted in the U.S. for a 2nd chance, so they go overseas. So anyone who has a history of dismissal is most likely an IMG.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Smurfette]

If you failed out of one med school, expect to have to start all over again as a MS1 if you get in somewhere else. It is unlikely you will get partial credit.

Failing out of a US school, then going to a foreign school, and coming back and attempting to do a US residency is going to be very difficult. Scoring very high (not simply "solid" or "above average") on Step 1 and 2 will help somewhat, but won't overcome the fact that you failed to complete school in the US which most residencies will consider a red flag to your app. PDs will be worried you will not be able to pass the boards, or have other issues that could recur that make you a "risky" candidate in comparison. And it is getting tougher for IMGs to get spots as it is. If you don't get a spot, or you want to do something competitive, what is your back up plan?

 

[Winged Scapula]

You're approaching this the wrong way.

The way I see it, your goal is to become a physician. If you honestly will be unhappy being anything but <insert specialty X>, then you might as well give up on the idea of being a physician as you may be afforded that luxury. So while EM, Rads, Anesthesia are most appealing to you, you need to accept the possibility that those specialties may not be options.

As pointed out above, its pretty difficult to get dismissed from medical school. I have to wonder if there are more circumstances than just doing "borderline" poorly for 1 semester. Most schools would work with you and offer assistance before dismissing a student especially if there were reasonable circumstances. Perhaps you are not being entirely honest with yourself (and us)?

Regardless of what happened, you should expect to start from MS-1, working your arse off and consider whatever specialties are open to you when the time comes.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

And what about the fact that if I do get into a foreign school, and my grades are fine for my repeated 2nd year, and shelf exams all go just fine as well, with a solid Step 1 score, would that not all overshadow my miserable record in one semester?

Also, wouldn't a higher than average Step 1 score (if I can reach that) compensate for my dismissal?

Similar to your thread about appealing the dismissal, you still don't seem to understand (or rather, don't want to accept) how big of a deal this was.

Nothing you do at this point will compensate or overshadow failing out of a US MD school. It will always be a huge red flag on your application.

Also, despite their SDN reputation as degree mills, it is not a given that a credible caribbean school will accept you following this (much less accept transfer credits).

You need to do some real introspection, and decide if you are willing to put another four years and hundreds of thousands of dollars into becoming a doctor. As WS said, you also need to be happy to get into ANY residency. If you really think you could "only" be an EM or anesthesiologist, it's time to seriously reevaluate.

 

[notbobtrustme]

The best course is to appeal for re-entry. Going off-shore is only going to compound your problems even if you do get a degree.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The best course is to appeal for re-entry. Going off-shore is only going to compound your problems even if you do get a degree.

He's already done that (and it was apparently unsuccessful).

 

[jakeislove]

Being kicked out of a US school actually lowers your chances of Caribbean acceptance. I know at least 4 who were kicked out at MS III/IV. One friend applied to 5 schools before getting accepted and the first 4 places didn't want to deal with a problem student. Two of them started again from scratch. All of them have some problem dealing with authority, handling feedback, or getting along with others.

I'm a Caribbean student and can say with 100% certainty that there's very little (if any) support system, infrastructure to help with personal difficulties, learning disabilities, or psychological issues. There's definitely not any of the mentoring, hand-holding, or obligation invest in students that US schools are known for.

I'm studying for Step 2 CK and regret not having the time (or way with words) to write this in a way that doesn't read harshly: If you struggled academically, in a place with every possible advantage, and loans!? Please don't believe you'd kick butt in a situation where there's next to nothing.

Another factor to consider is shrinking residency slots. The next few years will be pretty ugly for FMGs. If you're determined, my guess is starting from scratch may be the only way to keep attending a US school off one's record.

 

[evilbooyaa]

OP - I'm not sure if you were at a US MD school prior to your dismissal, but it would be worth the time and effort to see if you could perhaps get into a DO school before jumping overseas. I know the odds are very unlikely of getting into a DO school, but it's something to at least consider before you go down another 4 years (you would absolutely be starting over) with meager residency prospects (in fields that you apparently do not want to do).

 

[Smiths11]

Thanks for all your replies. I thought I was subscribed to this thread, but apparently not. I just posted a new thread about legal action, if anyone can kindly reply. As for now I am still trying to get back into my old school despite dismissal.

 

[ortho11111]

To the OP, I would seriously consider PA school. They make great money for their short training and hours worked ($100k for 40 hrs a week, which is a better deal than many primary care fields). Don't let your ego force you down the path of battling windmills. Caribbean schools is a terrible financial risk for you to take after failing out a US medical school. You will need to report your attendance on your residency applications and there's no guarantee you won't hit the same snag in your four years under far more dog-eat-dog circumstances.

 

[GolgeeDrinkRocks]

To the OP, I would seriously consider PA school. They make great money for their short training and hours worked ($100k for 40 hrs a week, which is a better deal than many primary care fields). Don't let your ego force you down the path of battling windmills. Caribbean schools is a terrible financial risk for you to take after failing out a US medical school. You will need to report your attendance on your residency applications and there's no guarantee you won't hit the same snag in your four years under far more dog-eat-dog circumstances.

Yes, do PA!

 

[atomi]

I was dealing with a crisis in my personal life that was the core cause of the dismissal. I have this documented with a psych evaluation. The personal issue is done with, and so now I am sure that I can do well if I repeated 2nd year.

So will having a documented excuse for my failure help me get matched, or will the residencies not care at all?

Even though this thread is 8 months old, it's worth noting that this doesn't really matter because this is what literally everyone says who has academic difficulty. It's always due to some sort of personal crisis and they always claim to have sought professional help. It's never due to somebody being lazy. If you didn't feel like studying, it's due to depression right? Even if that's true, it's not a get out of jail free card. Because residency is much more emotionally challenging than med school and the chances that you will have another "personal crisis" are pretty high. I had all kinds of bad sh|t happen to me during med school too, lots of people do and they get through it. My point is that when this comes up again in the future, unless you own the failure and present evidence that you are now a hard worker, blaming it on some vague undefined "personal crisis" will raise red flags for two reasons (1) you're the type of person who makes excuses and (2) what was this personal crisis? Did your girlfriend of 1 week break up with you and you went psycho for a whole year? Did you get addicted to drugs? Did you develop schizophrenia? All kinds of crazy things might go through the heads of your interviewers as they wonder what happened to you.

There are infinity threads on here about people being dismissed from med school, failing step 1, etc. Every single last one of them blames it something out of their control usually with the term "personal crisis" thrown in there somewhere. The only person I know who failed step 1 did it because she did not study. The only person I know who failed out of med school did because he thought his part time job was more important than studying. If you have money, fine go ahead and go to the Caribbean. But the odds are overwhelming that whatever was causing you to fail there will cause you to fail there. Caribbean students are expected to have step scores far above AMGs because their schools teach to the test and you have loads of time to study. A 220 from a top US MD school can get you into virtually any specialty. A 220 from a Caribbean school and you're lucky to match into anything. The competition is much stiffer and residency programs will expect flawless performance from you. A 250 from a foreign grad is not really that big of a deal when they've been studying for the test for a year and US grads get 4-6 weeks. PDs aren't stupid and they take this into account.

IMO the first step to getting past this hiccup in your life is to admit to yourself the real reason you failed out. Schools recognize legit personal crises and give you opportunities to make it work. More likely you either have issues with personal discipline or the intellectual rigor was beyond your capabilities.

You can make this work, but by saying that you are only interested in competitive ROAD-type specialties vs. core medical specialties indicates that you are seriously lacking perspective about why you failed out and why you were even there to begin with. Do you want to be a doctor or do you just want a laid back life with lots of time off? Because if you want a laid back life later on in medicine, you can't have a laid back life in medical school. You know that person I mentioned who failed step 1 because she didn't study? What specialty do you think she had been set on? That's right, derm.

 

[GolgeeDrinkRocks]

OP - I'm not sure if you were at a US MD school prior to your dismissal, but it would be worth the time and effort to see if you could perhaps get into a DO school before jumping overseas. I know the odds are very unlikely of getting into a DO school, but it's something to at least consider before you go down another 4 years (you would absolutely be starting over) with meager residency prospects (in fields that you apparently do not want to do).

He can but would have to do-over

 

[jakeislove]

One of the people I posted about earlier in the thread just started IM in July.