Transferring from DO to MD

[Rhabdoviridae]

I am currently an osteopathic medical student who is about to complete my second and final preclinical year. However, I am not at all happy at my current school. A couple of years ago, I applied to MD and DO (mostly MD) schools and was admitted to three osteopathic schools but didn't even get a single allopathic interview. Not wanting to take the time to improve my application given my mediocre results and the uncertainty of how subsequent cycles would go, I decided to take one of my DO acceptances against the advice of my family members and peers. Not only have I discovered that I genuinely dislike osteopathic medicine and its philosophy, but everyday I feel inferior to my MD counterparts. In addition, I am constantly berated by my parents for choosing this route (my father of whom is an MD). On top of this, my school is poorly administered and I am stuck living in a state/city that I despise. I am currently near the top of my class and, assuming that I pass the COMLEX in a few weeks (and score well) in addition to the USMLE, I was wondering if it would be at all possible for me to try to transfer into an MD program. While I know that traditional US-MD programs are unlikely to have any spaces nor even consider DO transfers, would it be possible for me to transfer into a Caribbean MD program? I understand that they do all of their clinicals stateside and (at least according to the schools I've researched) I would even be able to live in my home city while completing my rotations. Since much of the risk of going to a Caribbean school (at least according to this forum) seems to stem from not surviving attrition in preclinical years, this doesn't seem seem to be such a risky proposition to me. I know my matching prospects may be a bit lower graduating from one of these offshore schools, but it would at least get me the coveted MD degree which is of great importance to me. If this path is possible, are there any other downsides to it?

P.S. My apologies if I misplaced this thread under the wrong sub forum, as I wasn't sure which would be most appropriate being that it covers several topics. I just decided on this one because it seems to get the most traffic.

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[Goro]

I'll answer this exactly as if you are one of my own students (which the odds are about 1/30)

Very sorry to hear this
I am currently an osteopathic medical student who is about to complete my second and final preclinical year. However, I am not at all happy at my current school.

Good choice given the circumstances
A couple of years ago, I applied to MD and DO (mostly MD) schools and was admitted to three osteopathic schools but didn't even get a single allopathic interview. Not wanting to take the time to improve my application given my mediocre results and the uncertainty of how subsequent cycles would go, I decided to take one of my DO acceptances against the advice of my family members and peers.

You knew what you getting into. IF your parents are paying for your tuition, that's a small price to pay for being a doctor. You DO want to be a doctor, don't you?
Not only have I discovered that I genuinely dislike osteopathic medicine and its philosophy, but everyday I feel inferior to my MD counterparts. In addition, I am constantly berated by my parents for choosing this route (my father of whom is an MD).

Ahh, not my school.
On top of this, my school is poorly administered

Rotations will start soon. You may very well have a chance to get out of said city, if not state,. And there's only two more years to go. Rotations will keep you busy.
and I am stuck living in a state/city that I despise. I am currently near the top of my class and, assuming that I pass the COMLEX in a few weeks (and score well) in addition to the USMLE,

NOT going to happen
I was wondering if it would be at all possible for me to try to transfer into an MD program.

If you wish to end your clinical career, it will be much faster and cheaper simply to punch your Dean in the nose.
While I know that traditional US-MD programs are unlikely to have any spaces nor even consider DO transfers, would it be possible for me to transfer into a Caribbean MD program?


Except your judgment will be rightly called into question.
Since much of the risk of going to a Caribbean school (at least according to this forum) seems to stem from not surviving attrition in preclinical years, this doesn't seem seem to be such a risky proposition to me.


Hmmmm...Now I'm sensing a troll. But it's a teaching moment anyway. If the MD was that coveted to you, you would have done the work to fix your app and get into an MD school. If you're not trolling, you made your bed, now lie in it.
I know my matching prospects may be a bit lower graduating from one of these offshore schools, but it would at least get me the coveted MD degree which is of great importance to me. If this path is possible, are there any other downsides to it?

 

[Aerus]

Why would you apply to DO schools if you did not like their philosophy?

 

[DokterMom]

FFS, stay the DO course! Do not incinerate your career now to exchange one two-letter degree for another. Your chances of matching successfully don't drop "a bit" -- they'd fall off a virtual cliff once PDs realize what a #&$^@&# (can't even think of a colorful enough word!) decision you made, and at this point in your life!

If it's still an issue for you in 6-7 years after you've successfully completed residency, then buy yourself a diploma mill Caribbean MD degree later.

 

[libertyyne]

Look, you sound smart and you have connections .work hard and leverage those connections to land the residency you need. Problem solved. No one cares if you are an MD or do once you are practicing medicine.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

FFS, stay the DO course! Do not incinerate your career now to exchange one two-letter degree for another. Your chances of matching successfully don't drop "a bit" -- they'd fall off a virtual cliff once PDs realize what a #&$^@&# (can't even think of a colorful enough word!) decision you made, and at this point in your life!

If it's still an issue for you in 6-7 years after you've successfully completed residency, then buy yourself a diploma mill Caribbean MD degree later.

The only reason I have been brainstorming this idea is because it would allow me to get an MD degree without losing any additional time, would get me out of my current lackluster program, allow me to live near my family, and would appease my parents. Yeah I know that these Caribbean places are for-profit diploma mills, but students who survive attrition (make it to clinical years) and do well on their boards (particularly USMLE Step 1) seem to fair decently in the residency match (solely based off information I have gotten from this forum). As I mentioned in my initial post, I would not even consider trying to transfer schools (to another DO program, US-MD, Carib MD, etc) unless I score high on my board exams in a few weeks. Why then in this circumstance would transferring to a Caribbean MD program at this stage in the game look like a bad decision or indicate poor judgement in the eye of PDs with the goal of obtaining an MD degree in mind?

 

[gonnif]

The only reason I have been brainstorming this idea is because it would allow me to get an MD degree without losing any additional time, would get me out of my current lackluster program, allow me to live near my family, and would appease my parents. Yeah I know that these Caribbean places are for-profit diploma mills, but students who survive attrition (make it to clinical years) and do well on their boards (particularly USMLE Step 1) seem to fair decently in the residency match (solely based off information I have gotten from this forum). As I mentioned in my initial post, I would not even consider trying to transfer schools (to another DO program, US-MD, Carib MD, etc) unless I score high on my board exams in a few weeks. Why then in this circumstance would transferring to a Caribbean MD program at this stage in the game look like a bad decision or indicate poor judgement in the eye of PDs with the goal of obtaining an MD degree in mind?

It will be presumed to be something very negative an and will raise serious questions. What I would presume seeing a student who did well on a board but suddenly left a US school for a off shore mill is accusations of criminal behavior, sexual harassment, or other activity that both the school and student found it easier to separate than going thru legal process. Residency programs are much more "conservative" in terms of public risk such as possibly getting someone who may have been accused of something that neither the school or the student wants to discuss. This screams potential legal problem and should not be touched .

 

[P0ke]

The only reason I have been brainstorming this idea is because it would allow me to get an MD degree without losing any additional time, would get me out of my current lackluster program, allow me to live near my family, and would appease my parents. Yeah I know that these Caribbean places are for-profit diploma mills, but students who survive attrition (make it to clinical years) and do well on their boards (particularly USMLE Step 1) seem to fair decently in the residency match (solely based off information I have gotten from this forum). As I mentioned in my initial post, I would not even consider trying to transfer schools (to another DO program, US-MD, Carib MD, etc) unless I score high on my board exams in a few weeks. Why then in this circumstance would transferring to a Caribbean MD program at this stage in the game look like a bad decision or indicate poor judgement in the eye of PDs with the goal of obtaining an MD degree in mind?

Suck it up for the next 2 years and get the DO. You don't even have to use osteopathic medicine once you're a doctor. The Caribbean route is still risky, with lower match rates, and relatively higher attrition even in clinical years. You don't wanna be the MD stuck waiting tables for the rest of your life because you never matched. If you're one of the top students at your current school, you'll get lots of positive feedback on your dean's letter and LORs... and all of that disappears if you transfer.

 

[IMakedThese]

 

[LutGholein]

I don't know why but it really irks me when I bump into premeds with this way of thinking---especially the kind that can't afford to be choosy-- look you either want to be a physician or you don't-- I applied to both DO/MD schools knowing fully well that both would lead me to a career as a practicing physician--I would of being perfectly content knowing I got the chance to become a doctor from either path. Going to the Caribbean isn't the answer. Would you really win your father's approval because you got a Caribbean MD? Be at peace that you get to study in the U.S --for most premed it's a pipe dream to get into ANY school.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Trolling used to mean something...

 

[Donna Moss]

I'm pre-med still and even I realize this logic is set up for disaster. Be grateful that you are going to be a practicing physician. Go make a difference in people's lives and be grateful you've been given such an opportunity.

 

[DokterMom]

The only reason I have been brainstorming this idea is because it would allow me to get an MD degree without losing any additional time, would get me out of my current lackluster program, allow me to live near my family, and would appease my parents. Yeah I know that these Caribbean places are for-profit diploma mills, but students who survive attrition (make it to clinical years) and do well on their boards (particularly USMLE Step 1) seem to fair decently in the residency match (solely based off information I have gotten from this forum). As I mentioned in my initial post, I would not even consider trying to transfer schools (to another DO program, US-MD, Carib MD, etc) unless I score high on my board exams in a few weeks. Why then in this circumstance would transferring to a Caribbean MD program at this stage in the game look like a bad decision or indicate poor judgement in the eye of PDs with the goal of obtaining an MD degree in mind?

"would get me out of my current lackluster program, allow me to live near my family,"

This part is certainly true. You can't get much closer than Mommy and Daddy's basement.





Edit to clarify intent: My intent was absolutely not to insult students who enjoy their families and want to live closer to them. My meaning was that if the OP decides to transfer from a reputable DO school to a Caribbean school, then fails to match, s/he'll be living in Mommy & Daddy's basement due to a financial inability to pay rent elsewhere. Makes sense now OP?

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

"would get me out of my current lackluster program, allow me to live near my family,"

This part is certainly true. You can't get much closer than Mommy and Daddy's basement.

I said near my family, not with them. But even if that were the case, who are you to judge me off that preference? Perhaps I have personal reasons or responsibilities that require me to live closer to home. Pretty unprofessional and innappropriate comment IMO.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

This makes zero sense to me. You cite feeling inferior to MD counterparts, but that sounds like either a) a personal problem rooted in old stereotypes about DO's-- I mean, come on...residencies are merging, there is practically no difference in practice capability anymore or b) your father is a jerk who put this idea into your head. Either way, it's completely irrational. I mean, who on earth would consider a Caribbean MD over an American DO? I don't even buy this enough to respond fully to any of the other points you made.

You're going to be a doctor. 2 more years and you'll match into a residency and move away. Suck it up.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

This makes zero sense to me. You cite feeling inferior to MD counterparts, but that sounds like either a) a personal problem rooted in old stereotypes about DO's-- I mean, come on...residencies are merging, there is practically no difference in practice capability anymore or b) your father is a jerk who put this idea into your head. Either way, it's completely irrational. I mean, who on earth would consider a Caribbean MD over an American DO? I don't even buy this enough to respond fully to any of the other points you made.

You're going to be a doctor. 2 more years and you'll match into a residency and move away. Suck it up.

Maybe other medical professionals don't see a difference between the two degrees, but most people I have met who are not in medcine do not have any idea what DO stands for. Seeing that most of your patients fall into this category, the idea of having to give an explanation for my training countless times over my career makes me cringe. Call it a bruised ego or an inferiority complex, but that is my stance and I'm willing to admit it. And thank you for insulting my father, but his opinion matters to me regardless of what you or anyone else thinks. And since many program directors are from older generations, they are likely to hold these very stereotypes you mentioned about osteopathic graduates while I am in residency and applying. However, after doing some more research, I would say that I will probably end up reluctantly sticking it out in my current program. Not because of any the things you or the other posters said, but because it appears that no US-MD or Caribbean MD programs would allow me to transfer without basically starting medical school over.

 

[Frogger27]

This makes zero sense to me. You cite feeling inferior to MD counterparts, but that sounds like either a) a personal problem rooted in old stereotypes about DO's-- I mean, come on...residencies are merging, there is practically no difference in practice capability anymore or b) your father is a jerk who put this idea into your head. Either way, it's completely irrational. I mean, who on earth would consider a Caribbean MD over an American DO? I don't even buy this enough to respond fully to any of the other points you made.

You're going to be a doctor. 2 more years and you'll match into a residency and move away. Suck it up.

With all due respect, in academic medicine (particularly the top tier) there is a severe bias against DO's by PDs and academic physicians. They are seen as having inferior training and not "smart enough" to get into an MD school. The PD's know that having a DO in their program , no matter how big a rockstar they are, makes their program look inferior that they couldn't fill it with a US MD. I have seen plenty of doctors where I am (hospital associated with top 5 med school) recommend students go to Carib >> DO purely for the fact of having those two letters. OP is not crazy for having these thoughts, but being two years into his DO school he would be crazy to leave and go to carib. If he knew that he would feel this way about his degree, he should have worked to put together an app for an MD school instead of apply DO. As someone else has said, he made his bed and it is time to lie in it. He should of known what he is getting into.

Here is what @RadiologyPD said on the matter
"Trying to be as honest as possible. Here are the problems for our program with respect to most DO applicants and certainly all IMG applicants:
1. The perception (again, perception) that we struggled to fill the program if a number of our residents are DO/IMG. Without trying to give away too much, I'm not at Mallinckrodt--my program isn't one of those 15+ residents/year beasts that can have an IMG or DO and everyone decides "dang, that person must be awesome"--instead, for us, because we have a smaller program, the impression will be, "why couldn't they fill with AMGs". Realize that this is not just a perception among applicants--I'd have explain to all my faculty (none of whom are DOs) that we really wanted this DO--they are going to think we had a bad Match.
2. More importantly (seriously)--the DO schools do a terrible job stratifying their medical students. This is the real problem I have with understanding how to asses my DO applicants. Even worse for the IMGs. More than 50% of a typical DO class (sometimes 80%, it seems to me) get "straight A's" in the clinical years. The written commentaries on performance are woefully short (one sentence, maybe two). I don't know the radiologists that have worked with them, so I don't get any familiar letters that would boost an applicant. Many of the radiology departments that the DOs have worked in aren't particularly academic, so they haven't impressed in research. Since I really don't care if you get a 240 or a 270 on your USMLE, it becomes that much harder for me to be impressed by a DO student who got 270 on their boards (by the way, I do care if you get less than 240, so please do as well as possible on your USMLE). Even though we purposefully "overinterview", I have far more applicants than individuals I can invite. If you are a DO, your best bet to get into my residency would be to have an advocate that I'm familiar with call me and tell me you walk on water. I'd happily go to bat for you then, with my faculty and with future applicants."

Radiology Faculty--Answering Questions/"AMA"

 

[aprilfools]

I said near my family, not with them. But even if that were the case, who are you to judge me off that preference? Perhaps I have personal reasons or responsibilities that require me to live closer to home. Pretty unprofessional and innappropriate comment IMO.

His/her response went WAY over your head.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

With all due respect, in academic medicine (particularly the top tier) there is a severe bias against DO's by PDs and academic physicians. They are seen as having inferior training and not "smart enough" to get into an MD school. The PD's know that having a DO in their program , no matter how big a rockstar they are, makes their program look inferior that they couldn't fill it with a US MD. I have seen plenty of doctors where I am (hospital associated with top 5 med school) recommend students go to Carib >> DO purely for the fact of having those two letters. OP is not crazy for having these thoughts, but being two years into his DO school he would be crazy to leave and go to carib. If he knew that he would feel this way about his degree, he should have worked to put together an app for an MD school instead of apply DO. As someone else has said, he made his bed and it is time to lie in it. He should of known what he is getting into.

Here is what @RadiologyPD said on the matter
"Trying to be as honest as possible. Here are the problems for our program with respect to most DO applicants and certainly all IMG applicants:
1. The perception (again, perception) that we struggled to fill the program if a number of our residents are DO/IMG. Without trying to give away too much, I'm not at Mallinckrodt--my program isn't one of those 15+ residents/year beasts that can have an IMG or DO and everyone decides "dang, that person must be awesome"--instead, for us, because we have a smaller program, the impression will be, "why couldn't they fill with AMGs". Realize that this is not just a perception among applicants--I'd have explain to all my faculty (none of whom are DOs) that we really wanted this DO--they are going to think we had a bad Match.
2. More importantly (seriously)--the DO schools do a terrible job stratifying their medical students. This is the real problem I have with understanding how to asses my DO applicants. Even worse for the IMGs. More than 50% of a typical DO class (sometimes 80%, it seems to me) get "straight A's" in the clinical years. The written commentaries on performance are woefully short (one sentence, maybe two). I don't know the radiologists that have worked with them, so I don't get any familiar letters that would boost an applicant. Many of the radiology departments that the DOs have worked in aren't particularly academic, so they haven't impressed in research. Since I really don't care if you get a 240 or a 270 on your USMLE, it becomes that much harder for me to be impressed by a DO student who got 270 on their boards (by the way, I do care if you get less than 240, so please do as well as possible on your USMLE). Even though we purposefully "overinterview", I have far more applicants than individuals I can invite. If you are a DO, your best bet to get into my residency would be to have an advocate that I'm familiar with call me and tell me you walk on water. I'd happily go to bat for you then, with my faculty and with future applicants."

Radiology Faculty--Answering Questions/"AMA"

I am not negating there still being stereotypes, specifically in top-tier. I'm simply saying that going to a Caribbean MD school will not put you into a better residency than staying at a U.S. DO program. Caribbean grads have notorious difficulty matching into any program here, let alone a top-tier one. I am agreeing with your point that if OP wanted to go to an MD that badly, they should've worked harder on their app. Transferring now to a Caribbean school simply makes no sense.

 

[efle]

Call it a bruised ego or an inferiority complex, but that is my stance and I'm willing to admit it.

You have a bruised ego or inferiority complex. One of the physicians I work with daily at a major academic center in a competitive IM subspecialty is DO. He works alongside another guy who went ivy MD and MGH residency. They do the same **** and I have never seen a patient even once ask about the DO on his coat. He's just Doctor X to them.

my father, but his opinion matters to me regardless of what you or anyone else thinks.

Is pops really going to be more proud and impressed by a ****ing Caribbean MD?

since many program directors are from older generations, they are likely to hold these very stereotypes you mentioned about osteopathic graduates

I think this is true, but it is still less of a stereotype hurdle than Caribbean

 

[sammiesings]

What I don't understand is, if you feel inferior to MDs, why in the heck would you go get a Caribbean MD?! You do that and a good majority of your peers will feel you're inferior to them. As opposed to now where only you have this stupid "feeling."

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

What I don't understand is, if you feel inferior to MDs, why in the heck would you go get a Caribbean MD?! You do that and a good majority of your peers will feel you're inferior to them. As opposed to now where only you have this stupid "feeling."

The way I see it is I am going to have a chip on my shoulder either way. I do not think there is a single person at a DO or Caribbean MD program who wouldn't rather be at a US-MD school. Once you are in practice however, it seems less apparent where you went to medical school as opposed to the two initials next to your name.

 

[dr.d00m]

I can't believe such a terrible troll attempt got so many people to bite...so I guess in the end it was a successful troll after all.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm amazed some of you are taking this seriously.... OP literally just created a scenario that goes against all SDN advice and plain common sense, all for the purpose of riling you up.

 

[all things possible]

The way I see it is I am going to have a chip on my shoulder either way. I do not think there is a single person at a DO or Caribbean MD program who wouldn't rather be at a US-MD school. Once you are in practice however, it seems less apparent where you went to medical school as opposed to the two initials next to your name.

So are you going carib or nah?

 

[ronnicus]

I don't know why but it really irks me when I bump into premeds with this way of thinking---especially the kind that can't afford to be choosy-- look you either want to be a physician or you don't-- I applied to both DO/MD schools knowing fully well that both would lead me to a career as a practicing physician--I would of being perfectly content knowing I got the chance to become a doctor from either path. Going to the Caribbean isn't the answer. Would you really win your father's approval because you got a Caribbean MD? Be at peace that you get to study in the U.S --for most premed it's a pipe dream to get into ANY school.

I am not sure you can say that when you a) You have been accepted to an MD school and b) You have not been through an osteopathic school as OP has. It is very likely that OP had a similar thought process when he chose to attend the DO school (otherwise, he would have reapplied had he known he would be so unhappy). Many of us apply broadly thinking we would be fine going to a DO school or whatnot and only realizing later that we regret our decision.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

So are you going carib or nah?

If you saw my above post, it doesn't appear that I can so my answer for now would be no. I would appreciate if someone on this forum could temporarily put aside their hatred for Caribbean MD programs/students to let me know objectively if they think such a transfer would be possible (which is the reason I initially started this thread).

 

[all things possible]

If you saw my above post, it doesn't appear that I can so my answer for now would be no. I would appreciate if someone on this forum could temporarily put aside their hatred for Caribbean MD programs/students to let me know objectively if they think such a transfer would be possible (which is the reason I initially started this thread).

I ask because it seems you've already made up your mind, even before creating this thread.

You've been given plenty of objective advice now it's up to you to decide what you want to do.

Edit: I believe you would be expected to start over if you were to apply to the carib and gain admission. I haven't heard of anyone transferring midway through the program and starting from where they currently are.

 

[miniman]

I'm not going to pretend to be anything else than I am. I am pre-med so take what I say as such.

The DO v MD debate is lengthy. I would say that DO's are great at what they do... looking at the body as an entire system. I would recomend that you realize that despite it not being your favorite way to view medicine, you did choose it. You are in Med school, and you only have a few more years left. DO's can get into many specialties and have a unique advantage on MD's in some fields (Sports medicine, primary care and the like.) This is not to say that MD's don't have their positives as well. Just remember that you MADE IT, relish in that understanding and take everything in stride. Like @Goro said,

"NOT going to happen
I was wondering if it would be at all possible for me to try to transfer into an MD program."

So, I would recomend that you take sometime and look at the big picture, realize that you are becoming a doctor. You would have completed your dream. Is it too late to back out... and go to your Dream MD school. Yeah, sorry, it is. Even if the road you wanted to take didn't open up to you, you will still be at the finish line like thousands of others.

If you can, see if you can extend your schooling a year. You sound burned out right now. I know some schools will do this. Just please, take care of yourself.

Keep up the good work and rock the world with your grades!
M

 

[Goro]

:troll::troll::troll:

The way I see it is I am going to have a chip on my shoulder either way. I do not think there is a single person at a DO or Caribbean MD program who wouldn't rather be at a US-MD school. Once you are in practice however, it seems less apparent where you went to medical school as opposed to the two initials next to your name.

:troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[wimby2016]

:troll::troll::troll:
:troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:

Why assume OP is a troll? Is one automatically considered a troll when their thoughts are not exactly in line with others? I think it would be better to respond to someone genuinely even if they appear naive rather than brand them a troll (in cases where it is not 100% clear the poster is trolling, which I think applies to OP)

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I would say that DO's are great at what they do... looking at the body as an entire system

The DO/MD discussion has nothing to do with this. All doctors do this and are trained this way.

Why assume OP is a troll? Is one automatically considered a troll when their thoughts are not exactly in line with others? I think it would be better to respond to someone genuinely even if they appear naive rather than brand them a troll (in cases where it is not 100% clear the poster is trolling, which I think applies to OP)

OP is 100% a troll. He chose a topic that includes a number of different "SDN triggers" and lumped them into one. On top of that he joined on Tuesday, in addition to being an almost second year DO student (news flash, he isn't) who posted this is pre-allo. This is something no actual second year DO student would do, let alone someone actually in this situation.

 

[wimby2016]

The DO/MD discussion has nothing to do with this. All doctors do this and are trained this way.



OP is 100% a troll. He chose a topic that includes a number of different "SDN triggers" and lumped them into one. On top of that he joined on Tuesday, in addition to being an almost second year DO student (news flash, he isn't) who posted this is pre-allo. This is something no actual second year DO student would do, let alone someone actually in this situation.

I do not think it is 100% certain OP is a troll. When I first read the post my initial reaction was that OP is struggling and came to these forums for advice, not that he bundled up a bunch of SDN triggers into a single post for the sake of trolling. In any case, I'm just saying it might more prudent to engage with OP sincerely instead of calling him a troll, even if you think there is a high chance he is a troll. Worst case in the scenario where you legitimately respond is that you feed the troll; worst case in the scenario where you call OP a troll is that someone who came to SDN seeking guidance is shot down unfairly.

 

[sammiesings]

The way I see it is I am going to have a chip on my shoulder either way. I do not think there is a single person at a DO or Caribbean MD program who wouldn't rather be at a US-MD school. Once you are in practice however, it seems less apparent where you went to medical school as opposed to the two initials next to your name.

Meh. Your peers will think you're inferior because Caribbean grads are viewed as having "paid for the diploma" etc. Believe me, your peers will know where you went to school and will judge you for being a Caribbean grad. If you're really more insecure about what a patient thinks of your DO degree than you are about your fellow physicians feelings about you being a Caribbean grad, your priorities are wonky. Also, your dad won't be more proud of you for being a Caribbean grad lol.

Yes, I suppose you must be a troll, because this doesn't even make any sense lol

 

[miniman]

The DO/MD discussion has nothing to do with this. ?All? doctors do this and are trained this way.

And you quote me to say this... lame. Don't start something just to shut it down. Not a nice way to argue man. Go read on the differences (not on SDN) and studies done on comparing the two... If you do, you will understand what I mean when I say this.

 

[Lawpy]

I'll answer this exactly as if you are one of my own students (which the odds are about 1/30)

Very sorry to hear this
I am currently an osteopathic medical student who is about to complete my second and final preclinical year. However, I am not at all happy at my current school.

Good choice given the circumstances
A couple of years ago, I applied to MD and DO (mostly MD) schools and was admitted to three osteopathic schools but didn't even get a single allopathic interview. Not wanting to take the time to improve my application given my mediocre results and the uncertainty of how subsequent cycles would go, I decided to take one of my DO acceptances against the advice of my family members and peers.

You knew what you getting into. IF your parents are paying for your tuition, that's a small price to pay for being a doctor. You DO want to be a doctor, don't you?
Not only have I discovered that I genuinely dislike osteopathic medicine and its philosophy, but everyday I feel inferior to my MD counterparts. In addition, I am constantly berated by my parents for choosing this route (my father of whom is an MD).

Ahh, not my school.
On top of this, my school is poorly administered

Rotations will start soon. You may very well have a chance to get out of said city, if not state,. And there's only two more years to go. Rotations will keep you busy.
and I am stuck living in a state/city that I despise. I am currently near the top of my class and, assuming that I pass the COMLEX in a few weeks (and score well) in addition to the USMLE,

NOT going to happen
I was wondering if it would be at all possible for me to try to transfer into an MD program.

If you wish to end your clinical career, it will be much faster and cheaper simply to punch your Dean in the nose.
While I know that traditional US-MD programs are unlikely to have any spaces nor even consider DO transfers, would it be possible for me to transfer into a Caribbean MD program?


Except your judgment will be rightly called into question.
Since much of the risk of going to a Caribbean school (at least according to this forum) seems to stem from not surviving attrition in preclinical years, this doesn't seem seem to be such a risky proposition to me.


Hmmmm...Now I'm sensing a troll. But it's a teaching moment anyway. If the MD was that coveted to you, you would have done the work to fix your app and get into an MD school. If you're not trolling, you made your bed, now lie in it.
I know my matching prospects may be a bit lower graduating from one of these offshore schools, but it would at least get me the coveted MD degree which is of great importance to me. If this path is possible, are there any other downsides to it?

I haven't read the discussion but this post is key and should be read by anyone facing a similar dilemma.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

The DO/MD discussion has nothing to do with this. All doctors do this and are trained this way.



OP is 100% a troll. He chose a topic that includes a number of different "SDN triggers" and lumped them into one. On top of that he joined on Tuesday, in addition to being an almost second year DO student (news flash, he isn't) who posted this is pre-allo. This is something no actual second year DO student would do, let alone someone actually in this situation.

I gave the reason why I posted this in pre-allo in my first post. Mind you, while I have been familiar with this site for some time, I am a new member and was unsure where to start this thread. Feel free to request that the moderators move it elsewhere if you'd like. I am also not the first person in my class to come up with this idea. Many of us are fed up with what we have been putting up with at my current school for the past two years (neglect, poor student services, bad lecturers, etc) and a few of my classmates have considered the possibility of doing our clinical rotations through a Caribbean program. I find it astonishing actually that you think you can speak for all current osteopathic students and say that nobody would ever even think about switching to another program.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And you quote me to say this... lame. Don't start something just to shut it down. Not a nice way to argue man. Go read on the differences (not on SDN) and studies done on comparing the two... If you do, you will understand what I mean when I say this.

Not arguing, it's a statement of fact. DOs are no more "holistic" or "view the body as a system" than MDs. Don't believe the propaganda.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I find it astonishing actually that you think you can speak for all current osteopathic students and say that nobody would ever even think about switching to another program.

If you can quote me saying this I'll give you a $100 dollars. I'm amazed no one else sees the lackluster troll effort.

 

[miniman]

Not arguing, it's a statement of fact. DOs are no more "holistic" or "view the body as a system" than MDs. Don't believe the propaganda.

Alright. But just saying... Arguments are built on facts... that is unless....
Just saying man. I keep an open mind, and yeah I read beyond poor logic... clearly.

 

[787593]

 

[libertyyne]

There is 100% chance of matching if you continue down the DO path there is less than 100% chance of matching if you go to the carribean now. The quality of your match will be similar or worse off going to the carribean.

There is no logical reason at this point to abandon your school.

You can try to see if any MD schools will accept you,but there is a close to zero chance that any MD school would.

You can reapply to md schools and start over but there is almost a non existent chance of being accepted second time around. You would also have to retake your MCAT and go through as an m1 again. I don't think any school would take you considering you have already taken step at that point.

Your options s are
1. Become a DO , stay the course.
2. Go carribean and risk not matching and having a 300k piece of paper.
3. Quit medicine all together.

It doesn't take a theoretical physicist to figure out the optimal path amongst the choices you do have. You should take responsibility of the choices you have already made and see this thing through.

 

[EM2Be2017]

I have seen plenty of doctors where I am (hospital associated with top 5 med school) recommend students go to Carib >> DO purely for the fact of having those two letters.

These are most likely older physicians who do not understand the current academic environment. At least I hope they aren't serving as advisors to med students. Anyone who suggests this has no connection to today's reality. DOs on average have a WAY easier time matching to anything when compared to IMGs, particularly with the DO residencies being only available to DOs at this time. Once the merger is complete we will see if anything changes. Either way, DOs STILL match better than IMGs in the ACGME match. At least for EM there are DOs in some really great residencies, but no IMGs at these same programs. I always shake my head when people say they won't consider DO and would rather go carribean, but luckily it's not my money.

This isn't to say everything is great with going the DO route, you are absolutely right in that DOs still face an uphill battle when they apply to ACGME residencies, and many programs simply won't interview DOs or IMGs. But it would be very unusual in my experience to see an established program take carribean MDs over DOs.

To the OP, sorry to say this but you are going to have to get over it. Moving to a carribean school would be a huge step down and you would be shooting yourself in the foot. You won't be able to transfer, so your only option would be to apply again to US MD schools, but you most likely won't be successful considering you've already done two years in a DO school. Your only real option is to do well on step 1 and 2 (take both) and find well known mentors in the field you eventually apply to. This is key since as stated above, one of the problems with DO programs is that the attendings aren't well known in the ACGME world. Good luck.

 

[libertyyne]

These are most likely older physicians who do not understand the current academic environment. At least I hope they aren't serving as advisors to med students. Anyone who suggests this has no connection to today's reality. DOs on average have a WAY easier time matching to anything when compared to IMGs, particularly with the DO residencies being only available to DOs at this time. Once the merger is complete we will see if anything changes. Either way, DOs STILL match better than IMGs in the ACGME match. At least for EM there are DOs in some really great residencies, but no IMGs at these same programs. I always shake my head when people say they won't consider DO and would rather go carribean, but luckily it's not my money.

This isn't to say everything is great with going the DO route, you are absolutely right in that DOs still face an uphill battle when they apply to ACGME residencies, and many programs simply won't interview DOs or IMGs. But it would be very unusual in my experience to see an established program take carribean MDs over DOs.

To the OP, sorry to say this but you are going to have to get over it. Moving to a carribean school would be a huge step down and you would be shooting yourself in the foot. You won't be able to transfer, so your only option would be to apply again to US MD schools, but you most likely won't be successful considering you've already done two years in a DO school. Your only real option is to do well on step 1 and 2 (take both) and find well known mentors in the field you eventually apply to. This is key since as stated above, one of the problems with DO programs is that the attendings aren't well known in the ACGME world. Good luck.

There are certain surgical specialties/sub specialties programs where usimg are interviewed /matched at same or higher rates compared to DOs. These are all acgme programs and obviously this doesn't take into account aoa residencies.

 

[LutGholein]

There is 100% chance of matching if you continue down the DO path there is less than 100% chance of matching if you go to the carribean now.

This is the key thing here. It's risky to those of us who are risk-averse.

I am not sure you can say that when you a) You have been accepted to an MD school and b) You have not been through an osteopathic school as OP has. It is very likely that OP had a similar thought process when he chose to attend the DO school (otherwise, he would have reapplied had he known he would be so unhappy). Many of us apply broadly thinking we would be fine going to a DO school or whatnot and only realizing later that we regret our decision.

You are correct I have not been to a DO school but I have friends who attend a few DO schools and have listened to them voice their criticisms/pros of attending XYZ COM.

Yes, there are some who applied to both and there are others who strictly applied to DO only and the sentiment I hear from both groups is that they are thankful that at the end of the day your residency prospects coming from a U.S osteopathic medical school is far better than the carribean islands. To put it simply, there's a job at the end of the road for you if you pass through the crucibles US MD/DO.

 

[EM2Be2017]

There are certain surgical specialties/sub specialties programs where usimg are interviewed /matched at same or higher rates compared to DOs. These are all acgme programs and obviously this doesn't take into account aoa residencies.

Where did you find this data? For some reason Charting outcomes in the match for DOs doesn't list all the surgical subspecialties, but for what it does list the DOs match at significantly greater percentages.

The charts are on page 5 of their respective pdf.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Osteopathic-2016.pdf

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf

I'm curious as to how the results were calculated. For example if a DO student applies to the ACGME match, gets a few interviews but drops out of the ACGME match because they got more interviews in the AOA match, is that data point included in the "not matched" pile?

Either way, this is why I don't recommend the DO as a first choice and see IMG as an absolutely last choice.

 

[libertyyne]

Where did you find this data? For some reason Charting outcomes in the match for DOs doesn't list all the surgical subspecialties, but for what it does list the DOs match at significantly greater percentages.

The charts are on page 5 of their respective pdf.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Osteopathic-2016.pdf

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf

I'm curious as to how the results were calculated. For example if a DO student applies to the ACGME match, gets a few interviews but drops out of the ACGME match because they got more interviews in the AOA match, is that data point included in the "not matched" pile?

Either way, this is why I don't recommend the DO as a first choice and see IMG as an absolutely last choice.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
Look at the more competitive surgical / sub surgical stuff. ENT , URO, NSG etc.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

These are all acgme programs and obviously this doesn't take into account aoa residencies.

That's the big qualifier though, some of the best of the best DO students didn't go through ACGME because they know they had a spot in the AOA match. I think even with the merger we will see more DOs matching into these surgical subspecialties than IMGs, probably by a fair amount. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Arguments are built on facts...

If you have facts to prove that DOs are more holistic and view the body better as a system than MDs then please share. You do realize I'm going to a DO school right? And proud of it, but saying that they somehow are better at looking at the whole body is a dumb argument that has no basis in reality. The only big clinical distinguisher between the two is OMM and very few DOs actually use it in their practice. There is no difference in "philosophy", that's just propaganda

 

[libertyyne]

That's the big qualifier though, some of the best of the best DO students didn't go through ACGME because they know they had a spot in the AOA match. I think even with the merger we will see more DOs matching into these surgical subspecialties than IMGs, probably by a fair amount. It will be interesting to see what happens.



If you have facts to prove that DOs are more holistic and view the body better as a system than MDs then please share. You do realize I'm going to a DO school right? And proud of it, but saying that they somehow are better at looking at the whole body is a dumb argument that has no basis in reality. The only big clinical distinguisher between the two is OMM and very few DOs actually use it in their practice. There is no difference in "philosophy", that's just propaganda

Maybe,there are more acgme spots per us MD in these sub specialties compared to aoa residency spots per do graduate. But you are right that it will be interesting to see how the match shakes out.

 

[Goro]

Why assume OP is a troll? Is one automatically considered a troll when their thoughts are not exactly in line with others? I think it would be better to respond to someone genuinely even if they appear naive rather than brand them a troll (in cases where it is not 100% clear the poster is trolling, which I think applies to OP)

Read his answers and you tell me.