Transitioning into pain from gas

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desflurane

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Been practicing in the "real world" for a solid five years now, fully certified anesthesiologist, no fellowship. Been in a few practice settings and have never found that silver bullet combo of money, lifestyle and interesting work. Over time been growing tired of the lack of respect from all angles. Also can't deal with pushing propofol down in endo..I'd rather sell Amway. The NY Times editorial regarding CRNAs was a real wake up call for me. I am considering the r/b/a of going back and doing a pain fellowship.

My other alternatives: suck it up, cardiac, b-school. I guess I am looking for comments from people who have transitioned out of anesthesia into something else, why you did and any pros and cons. Especially would like to hear about the future of pain vs future of anesthesia.
 
Much depends on the specific situation but in general...........
1. Anesthesiologists and CRNAs are primarily technicians, doing for the most part what an anesthesia assistant could do. They are both grossly overpaid for the skill sets they use on a daily basis. The only possible reason for their inflated payscales is the rare case of a disaster or near disastrous outcome. The very high pay for technician's work very much makes anesthesiologists and the CRNAs (who deem themselves in every way equivalent to anesthesiologists technically but better because they are nurses and therefore have compassion) a direct target for significant salary reductions in the future.
2. Anesthesia can be perceived as rewarding due to the income and batting a thousand every time you step up to the plate, but for those that want a real challenge, the world of pain medicine offers a refuge for those that perceive anesthesia to be boring as hell. However, one cannot simply decide to be a pain physician and be any good at it without significant training and years of experience beyond many of the highly variable and inadequate fellowship programs currently available.
3. Pain docs may not necessarily possess the degree of respect desired. We have in our profession docs advertising themselves as pain physicians but in actuality run pill mills (frequently have no training in pain) or what I lovingly call mindless block jocks who derive a very good income from inappropriate injections in inappropriate frequencies for inappropriate diagnoses. Each group has caused our profession to lose the desired respect. We have some unscrupulous pain docs that do everything possible to extract massive quantities of money from patients by making false promises and by employing business models that cater to the rich but steal from the poor. So as a profession with no universal standards and no police force except for the DEA and the police themselves, we have devolved from the Bridenbaugh pure altruistic medicine approach to the Gordon Gekko model in extreme cases. But we a motley profession with many well meaning and ethical individuals that do garner the repect of their peers for good diagnostic skills and treatments that actually work some of the time. At least if you are to be disrespected in pain medicine, it is not directly to your face as is frequently the case in anesthesiology.
4. It is really about whether you enjoy being a doctor with all the whining and failures of treatments (you will find them if you ask your patients) and the uncertainties and staffing issues and finance and all the other silly things anesthesiologists never have to begin to think about, or whether you can stifle your grimaces and anger long enough to get through a day with a surley surgeon without actually killing him. Both have their own set of issues. But give me any day the beauty of a patient that can't wait to show you a pic of their new dog that they can now take for a walk due to a spinal cord stimulator you implanted or a patient that returns 3 years after the last troch bursa injection having been pain free since and wants a repeat. Priceless.
 
I would recommend doing a pain fellowship and getting ABA board certified in Pain. In uncertain times, having that is important. It also allows you to adjust to seeing patients in clinic setting. Success in pain starts in the examination room. Don't get trapped in cookbook pain medicine where everyone gets a series of threes after a quick pat down exam. Refer to Algos #3 above.
 
Anesthesiologists as grossly overpaid technicians?

So says the needler. I'd love to have you come by the ICU or Cardiac OR for a visit sometime..

You're so clueless and it's disheartening because fellow physicians will always try to disparage their own...The divide and conquer philosophy of noctors is working quite well these days!

Considering anesthesiologists founded and advanced pain medicine to where it is today, I would have thought you'd have a bit more of respect for the pioneers/leaders in pain medicine.


Much depends on the specific situation but in general...........
1. Anesthesiologists and CRNAs are primarily technicians, doing for the most part what an anesthesia assistant could do. They are both grossly overpaid for the skill sets they use on a daily basis. The only possible reason for their inflated payscales is the rare case of a disaster or near disastrous outcome. The very high pay for technician's work very much makes anesthesiologists and the CRNAs (who deem themselves in every way equivalent to anesthesiologists technically but better because they are nurses and therefore have compassion) a direct target for significant salary reductions in the future.
2. Anesthesia can be perceived as rewarding due to the income and batting a thousand every time you step up to the plate, but for those that want a real challenge, the world of pain medicine offers a refuge for those that perceive anesthesia to be boring as hell. However, one cannot simply decide to be a pain physician and be any good at it without significant training and years of experience beyond many of the highly variable and inadequate fellowship programs currently available.
3. Pain docs may not necessarily possess the degree of respect desired. We have in our profession docs advertising themselves as pain physicians but in actuality run pill mills (frequently have no training in pain) or what I lovingly call mindless block jocks who derive a very good income from inappropriate injections in inappropriate frequencies for inappropriate diagnoses. Each group has caused our profession to lose the desired respect. We have some unscrupulous pain docs that do everything possible to extract massive quantities of money from patients by making false promises and by employing business models that cater to the rich but steal from the poor. So as a profession with no universal standards and no police force except for the DEA and the police themselves, we have devolved from the Bridenbaugh pure altruistic medicine approach to the Gordon Gekko model in extreme cases. But we a motley profession with many well meaning and ethical individuals that do garner the repect of their peers for good diagnostic skills and treatments that actually work some of the time. At least if you are to be disrespected in pain medicine, it is not directly to your face as is frequently the case in anesthesiology.
4. It is really about whether you enjoy being a doctor with all the whining and failures of treatments (you will find them if you ask your patients) and the uncertainties and staffing issues and finance and all the other silly things anesthesiologists never have to begin to think about, or whether you can stifle your grimaces and anger long enough to get through a day with a surley surgeon without actually killing him. Both have their own set of issues. But give me any day the beauty of a patient that can't wait to show you a pic of their new dog that they can now take for a walk due to a spinal cord stimulator you implanted or a patient that returns 3 years after the last troch bursa injection having been pain free since and wants a repeat. Priceless.
 
Anesthesiologists as grossly overpaid technicians?

So says the needler. I'd love to have you come by the ICU or Cardiac OR for a visit sometime..

You're so clueless and it's disheartening because fellow physicians will always try to disparage their own...The divide and conquer philosophy of noctors is working quite well these days!

Considering anesthesiologists founded and advanced pain medicine to where it is today, I would have thought you'd have a bit more of respect for the pioneers/leaders in pain medicine.

Coastie, Algosdoc IS an an attending anesthesiologist turned Pain Medicine subspecialist, and is ALSO one of the "pioneers/leaders in pain medicine" that you speak of. I'm not nullifying your opinions, but your data on Algosdoc is obviously very limited.
 
Coastie, Algosdoc IS an an attending anesthesiologist turned Pain Medicine subspecialist, and is ALSO one of the "pioneers/leaders in pain medicine" that you speak of. I'm not nullifying your opinions, but your data on Algosdoc is obviously very limited.

Cool. So, we have an attending anesthesiologist who has no idea what anesthesiologists do? Either he was joking (and if so, I humbly apologize) or he is an incredible sell-out. I can't understand how an attending anesthesiologist could claim we are technicians. They completed a residency with ICU and OR requirements, in addition to pain, so why would they make such an off the wall statement?
 
Based on years of experience in anesthesiology, doing more complex cases than you will ever do in your life. 99.5% of anesthetics are technicians work, period. AAs and CRNAs believe they can do exactly what you do, and for the most part, they are right. It is primarily a technical skill...a technician. As an anesthesiology attending at a major university, after several years I decided to try an experiment. Gave 100 adult patients, inpatients and outpatients, exactly the same doses of fentanyl, propofol, tracrium (racemic atracurium for the nubes), intubate, and adjusted desfluorane. No other drugs, no other interventions, no extra lines, no extra monitoring. All 100 did exactly the same...a perfect outcome without significant fluxuations in vital signs, had no end organ damage, and were happy with the anesthetic.
In anesthesia, you bat 1000 all the time. The anesthesiologists and public become so insouciant regarding the accepted level of risk as being close to zero, that when there is a rare death or serious injury, it can make local if not regional news. Anesthesiology has virtually nothing to do with the treatment of chronic pain. The early pain physicians were anesthesiologists because they knew a little about local anesthetics, IV narcotics (no training in oral narcotics, sorry), and blind regional blocks. These techniques work well for the acute pain patient but are of little value to the chronic pain physician, and the specialty of pain rapidly evolved away from the anesthesiology model and their 100% success rate. Pain physicians embraced and developed the skills of surgeons, internal medicine physicians, orthopedists, psychiatrists, PMR, and rheumatologists, all areas in which anesthesiologists have little training or skills. The populations we treat are different, the scope of practice is different, the skill sets are different, and the decision making is far more advanced.
Don't get me wrong- there is nothing wrong with being a technician. It provides an excellent income and a fairly decent lifestyle. And technicians are certainly needed in medicine. But for the most part, if an anesthesiologist never read any journal articles, performed any research, did any CME, or advanced their skills in any way, they would have the skills at the time of finishing residency to provide a lifetime of care for their patients with virtually equal outcomes.
Of course there are exceptions, but these depend largely on the work environment....those doing liver transplants are anything but technicians. But the enormous safety of anesthesia overall is more a function of the advances in the medications, monitoring, and relative standardization of techniques and diagnosis rather than due to the superlative skills and mental prowess of anesthesiologists. CRNAs have virtually equal outcomes despite their lack of doing anything useful to advance the research in the field over the past 100 years and in spite of their whiney shift work mentality. Being an anesthesiologist is working at the behest of someone else to which the patient comes for care. People do not come to anesthesiologist to provide long term medication care or monitoring, for a surgical solution to their problem, or to enhance their function. People come to anesthesiologists because they provide a technical skill that is necessary so that someone else can do their job. And they do an outstanding job rendering technically adept anesthesia. But they are not pain physicians....different specialty.
 
algos, i love your comments, but please for the love of god, put some spaces between the lines, you are destroying my eyesight, hahah.
example.

Based on years of experience in anesthesiology, doing more complex cases than you will ever do in your life. 99.5% of anesthetics are technicians work, period. AAs and CRNAs believe they can do exactly what you do, and for the most part, they are right. It is primarily a technical skill...a technician.

As an anesthesiology attending at a major university, after several years I decided to try an experiment. Gave 100 adult patients, inpatients and outpatients, exactly the same doses of fentanyl, propofol, tracrium (racemic atracurium for the nubes), intubate, and adjusted desfluorane. No other drugs, no other interventions, no extra lines, no extra monitoring. All 100 did exactly the same...a perfect outcome without significant fluxuations in vital signs, had no end organ damage, and were happy with the anesthetic.
In anesthesia, you bat 1000 all the time.

The anesthesiologists and public become so insouciant regarding the accepted level of risk as being close to zero, that when there is a rare death or serious injury, it can make local if not regional news. Anesthesiology has virtually nothing to do with the treatment of chronic pain. The early pain physicians were anesthesiologists because they knew a little about local anesthetics, IV narcotics (no training in oral narcotics, sorry), and blind regional blocks.

These techniques work well for the acute pain patient but are of little value to the chronic pain physician, and the specialty of pain rapidly evolved away from the anesthesiology model and their 100% success rate. Pain physicians embraced and developed the skills of surgeons, internal medicine physicians, orthopedists, psychiatrists, PMR, and rheumatologists, all areas in which anesthesiologists have little training or skills. The populations we treat are different, the scope of practice is different, the skill sets are different, and the decision making is far more advanced.

Don't get me wrong- there is nothing wrong with being a technician. It provides an excellent income and a fairly decent lifestyle. And technicians are certainly needed in medicine. But for the most part, if an anesthesiologist never read any journal articles, performed any research, did any CME, or advanced their skills in any way, they would have the skills at the time of finishing residency to provide a lifetime of care for their patients with virtually equal outcomes.

Of course there are exceptions, but these depend largely on the work environment....those doing liver transplants are anything but technicians. But the enormous safety of anesthesia overall is more a function of the advances in the medications, monitoring, and relative standardization of techniques and diagnosis rather than due to the superlative skills and mental prowess of anesthesiologists.

CRNAs have virtually equal outcomes despite their lack of doing anything useful to advance the research in the field over the past 100 years and in spite of their whiney shift work mentality. Being an anesthesiologist is working at the behest of someone else to which the patient comes for care. People do not come to anesthesiologist to provide long term medication care or monitoring, for a surgical solution to their problem, or to enhance their function.

People come to anesthesiologists because they provide a technical skill that is necessary so that someone else can do their job. And they do an outstanding job rendering technically adept anesthesia. But they are not pain physicians....different specialty.


now thats something i can read...
 
:laugh:

What else is there to say? You're clearly off your rocker if you think ICU/Cardiac/Complex Peds is technicians work. BTW, we also have extensive chronic pain training in residency now. Didn't you get the memo?

I'd wager I've already done as complex if not more than you have. Sorry, but someone who claims anesthesiology is technicians work was probably a propofol pusher in a previous life..And for the record, I wouldn't consider liver transplants to be the most complicated cases we do.

Once again, if you're joking, which, if your credentials are truly what you say they are, then you are joking, I humbly apologize.

If not, then I imagine pain medicine can be a one year residency post medical school, since your previous 4 years of anesthesiology had "nothing" to do with pain management. Considering that would make you the GME equivalent of a "GP", it seems to reason that midlevels will have every justification to take over your field soon.

So which is it?

Based on years of experience in anesthesiology, doing more complex cases than you will ever do in your life. 99.5% of anesthetics are technicians work, period. AAs and CRNAs believe they can do exactly what you do, and for the most part, they are right. It is primarily a technical skill...a technician. As an anesthesiology attending at a major university, after several years I decided to try an experiment. Gave 100 adult patients, inpatients and outpatients, exactly the same doses of fentanyl, propofol, tracrium (racemic atracurium for the nubes), intubate, and adjusted desfluorane. No other drugs, no other interventions, no extra lines, no extra monitoring. All 100 did exactly the same...a perfect outcome without significant fluxuations in vital signs, had no end organ damage, and were happy with the anesthetic.
In anesthesia, you bat 1000 all the time. The anesthesiologists and public become so insouciant regarding the accepted level of risk as being close to zero, that when there is a rare death or serious injury, it can make local if not regional news. Anesthesiology has virtually nothing to do with the treatment of chronic pain. The early pain physicians were anesthesiologists because they knew a little about local anesthetics, IV narcotics (no training in oral narcotics, sorry), and blind regional blocks. These techniques work well for the acute pain patient but are of little value to the chronic pain physician, and the specialty of pain rapidly evolved away from the anesthesiology model and their 100% success rate. Pain physicians embraced and developed the skills of surgeons, internal medicine physicians, orthopedists, psychiatrists, PMR, and rheumatologists, all areas in which anesthesiologists have little training or skills. The populations we treat are different, the scope of practice is different, the skill sets are different, and the decision making is far more advanced.
Don't get me wrong- there is nothing wrong with being a technician. It provides an excellent income and a fairly decent lifestyle. And technicians are certainly needed in medicine. But for the most part, if an anesthesiologist never read any journal articles, performed any research, did any CME, or advanced their skills in any way, they would have the skills at the time of finishing residency to provide a lifetime of care for their patients with virtually equal outcomes.
Of course there are exceptions, but these depend largely on the work environment....those doing liver transplants are anything but technicians. But the enormous safety of anesthesia overall is more a function of the advances in the medications, monitoring, and relative standardization of techniques and diagnosis rather than due to the superlative skills and mental prowess of anesthesiologists. CRNAs have virtually equal outcomes despite their lack of doing anything useful to advance the research in the field over the past 100 years and in spite of their whiney shift work mentality. Being an anesthesiologist is working at the behest of someone else to which the patient comes for care. People do not come to anesthesiologist to provide long term medication care or monitoring, for a surgical solution to their problem, or to enhance their function. People come to anesthesiologists because they provide a technical skill that is necessary so that someone else can do their job. And they do an outstanding job rendering technically adept anesthesia. But they are not pain physicians....different specialty.
 
As someone who does both anesthesia and pain management (fellowship-trained), I'd just like to say this: anesthesia is way more riskier than pain management. During any cases you do, regardless of its surgical complexities, you have to be prepared to deal with unexpected emergency. Yes, anyone (technician) can put someone to sleep, but to bring a patient out of turbulence takes skills and mental clarity. Yes, most of time, anesthesia is a routine protocol work, but so is flying a Boeing-747. Yes, flight attendants spend way more time with passengers, and much more oriented to customer service. Do I ever want to belittle the captain as the "technician"? Nope, never.

Yes, one might have done 1000 cases with perfect outcome, it doesn't mean your 1001th case will be. That, is the challenge of anesthesia: the ability to save the day.

So anesthesia and chronic pain management each takes on different mentality and skill set. No less, or no more.
 
Yeah, algosdoc is speaking like a seasoned veteran who has already made his fortune off the field. So talking crap about it now really has no repercussions. However, us young folk just entering the field have a problem with someone disparaging it as "technicians work" after we've sacrificed a decade and a couple hundred G's getting to where we are now. I could be wrong about algosdoc.....but probably not.
 
The protestations of the neophytes and the entrenched are expected but the fact is that pain medicine is far more risky than anesthesiology. The malpractice coverage rates for pain medicine in most parts of the country are far higher than anesthesiology, and med mal insurers have recognized the risk by going as far as stratification of pain ratings dependent on the level of complexity of the procedures performed. I work with national malpractice carriers on the development of risk assessment for both professions. Anesthesiologists in residency are exposed to a wide variety of cases, some of which involve ICU and are indeed risky. But this is a very skewed population of patients causing increased risks. The reason these patients come to the university is either because they have Medicaid and are in very poor health and continue their self destructive behaviors or come to the U because of the complexity of their problem. The risks in private practice, where most anesthesiologists reside, are much lower than seen by residents in their experience at the U, therefore residents are unable to be objective or provide prognisticatory feedback on their future careers. But I can, having been in academics and private practice in anesthesiology for decades and am a reviewer for 2 different state medical boards for cases involving both anesthesiology and pain. I am also a seasoned expert witness in both fields, so I am quite qualified to determine relative risks of different professions.
Anesthesiologists themselves have demonstrated repeatedly and consistently across the country that their jobs can be done quite well by those with far less training. That is why they hire CRNAs and AAs. That is why some will "share call" with CRNAs. If the profession thought more highly of itself or that it required the skills of a 4 year residency program, why would anesthesiology groups continue to hire those that they believe are inferior? It is because they do not believe they are inferior. By hiring CRNAs and AAs, the profession is denigrated to that of the level of a technician. Since 2/3 of all anesthetics are administered by technicians and the outcomes are no different than anesthesiologists, one could easily argue (as have hospital administrators) that the entire profession is that of a technician and the "providers" are fungible. The profession of anesthesiology has no intention of cleaning its own house, taking action against those that hire CRNAs by a variety of sanctions that are available, and the anesthesia societies have worked with CRNAs in the development of policies and standards. The irony that CRNAs believe themselves to be at least equivalent to anesthesiologists, if not better, has had little impact. If a nurse with little training (there are still CRNAs with 2 years college after high school plus 1 year certificate programs practicing) is hired by anesthesiology groups to take care of their patient population, what does that say about the profession? That it views the rendering of anesthesia as a technicians job.
Sorry to disagree with so many on this forum, but my views are based on years of observation of the myopic avarice of the profession that is resulting in its destruction. Those who are graduating from residency soon: be prepared for the war that is brewing and if you have any ethics at all, you will practice in all-anesthesiology groups. BTW, soon CRNAs will be introducing themselves to your patients as "doctor" since the DNP programs are now available to CRNAs and CRNAs are indeed enrolling.
 
The problem is that anesthesiologists have been extremely successful at making their specialty safe. No other specialty has focused so much time, energy, and money on safety issues.

As a result, any idiot can do most anesthetics and many idiots do. This produces a sense of unwarranted complacency. When I was a resident my attending told me "Pentothal is dangerously easy to give."

IMHO CRNAs are definitely overpaid, because they are good at routine work but when TSHTF you need true depth of medical knowledge and experience. They make the money they do because of market forces.

Like Algos, I have been on both sides of the "blood brain barrier". I also taught residents for 8 years - in the O.R. and as an intensivist (with fellowship in critical care at MGH - back when MGH was really at the top of the class). I have done huge amounts of cardiac, major vascular and thoracic cases.

In general, pain management is more complicated and requires a more diverse skill set than gas. However, in terms of bad outcomes pain patients rarely die in unexpected and spectacular fashion like they do in anesthesia. Complicated cases like cardiac, thoracic, major vascular and neonates should not be relegated to CRNAs.

ICU requires a broader and deeper fund of knowledge than either pain or gas and it is the least well-compensated. Go figure. Pain patients can present with challenging problems that require a lot of thought and work, but if you fail, they just have pain. In the ICU, you get challenging problems and if you fail they die.

I do not have the coronary artery reserve required to do complex peds, especially sick neonates, which have always scared me to death.

In an ideal world, the CRNAs could do the routine cases with MD supervision and a lower compensation, while complex cases and extremes of age would require MD-level care at higher compensation, but I'm not in charge.

I would remind you that according to the Constitution, one does not need to be an elected member of Congress to be Speaker of the House and I would not mind at all if you formed a grassroots movement to elect me Speaker. If elected I will do my best to right all wrongs - at least in terms of how I see them.

In terms of personal preference, I don't think I would ever go back to either gas or ICU. I find pain to be far too personally rewarding. Frustrating, yes, but you can fire obnoxious patients. If you fire obnoxious surgeons you are out of business.
 
I agree pain patients do not usually die, but there are worse things than death: having a person with a permanently visible injury paraded before a jury. In recent years, there have been a large number of permanent neurological injuries due to pain procedures, including interlaminar epidural steroids. The cowboy attitude of anesthesiologists pithing the cord with blind epidurals has not helped, and in this day and age, no one, absolutely no one, should ever have a blind cervical epidural catheter or injection performed, yet there are still the intrepid (read:malpractice magnets) doing them. The anesthesiologists who is indeed concerned about safety of their patients will be using ultrasound for nerve and plexus blocks (rather than relying on paresthesias or inaccurate nerve stimulation) and will use fluoroscopy for confirmation and guidance of lumbar or epidural catheter or injections (with the exception of OB of course), but many do not. So while the gas passing part of anesthesia has become very safe due to protocols, safety, monitors initially promulgated and studied by physicians (not CRNAs), the regional anesthesia issue is not as safe due to continued cowboy mentality. There are still a large number of anesthesiologists who continue to place thoracic epidural catheters without fluoroscopic guidance. The idea that patients will respond to pithing of the cord or dural irritation of the needle was long ago disproved, yet anesthesiologists ignorant of spinal cord anatomy continue to eschew the safe approach that incorporates fluoroscopy, and could avoid intermedullary, subdural, or subarachnoid injections with the resultant complications.
So, we still have some work to do in the area of safety, but there is a gradual but perceptable movement towards continued improvement.
I totally agree ICU physicians are completely underpaid and have extremely risky patients. But only a very tiny percentage of anesthesiologists practice ICU on a routine basis. Kudos to them that do. They certainly are not technicians.
 
Anesthesiology is an intellectually demanding field. Does pushing the white stuff on ASA 1s and 2s at the OSC all day have any increased mortality or morbidity if a nurse manages the anesthetic with no MD anesthesiologist oversight? I have no idea and freely admit such practice would bore me to death, but I can assure you, when its me getting my procedure at the OSC, I want the anesthesiologist there.

I'm interested in pursuing fellowship in interventional pain management, so it's nice to see it portrayed in such grand fashion by algosdoc. But I can't help but wonder if malpractice rates are higher simply because they get sued more. Because there are more crook pill-pushers, more skill-less needle jockeys, and more people practicing pain management who have no real fundamental knowledge of what they're doing. Pain management today requires one year of training. It allows anesthesiology, PMR, neurology, psychiatry, family medicine, and others into its practice. In one short year, you arrive at the same destination? That seems very strange if you ask me. And need I remind the users here that there are nurses in Iowa doing fluoroscopic -guided injections with no physician oversight. I assure you they're trying to lay the groundwork for their future nursing brethren to do the same.

From my eyesight, pain has a lot of cleaning to do within its own house. I should remind algosdoc that although he fled the practice of anesthesiology for pain, the ASA maintains a massive degree of support, both legislatively and representatively, for your field of pain management. Why is that you turn your back on us, and yet we continue to support you? Doesn't seem honorable at all if you ask me.

In a time where we should ban together and support one another's cause, it's sad to see such disparaging comments about one another's profession. Truly, a house divided against itself cannot stand.
 
While the specialty of pain as very distinct from the specialty of anesthesiology does certainly have all the faults you listed, and a pathetically inadequate 1 year fellowship, it has not always been "supported" by the ASA, who indeed did turn their back on pain for a decade. We moved on beyond the ASA, and pain medicine is now a specialty that has advanced far beyond the tenents of anesthesiology. It is not grand, it is not lofty, but it is a very different specialty than anesthesiology. One cannot divide a house if there already exist two different houses.
The role of anesthesiologists are very necessary in our society. They are overtrained and overpaid since they believe CRNAs can adequately manage most clinical situations. If they did not hire CRNAs en masse, things would be quite different. CRNAs have the same concerns about AAs taking over their positions.
 
While the specialty of pain as very distinct from the specialty of anesthesiology does certainly have all the faults you listed, and a pathetically inadequate 1 year fellowship, it has not always been "supported" by the ASA, who indeed did turn their back on pain for a decade. We moved on beyond the ASA, and pain medicine is now a specialty that has advanced far beyond the tenents of anesthesiology. It is not grand, it is not lofty, but it is a very different specialty than anesthesiology. One cannot divide a house if there already exist two different houses.
The role of anesthesiologists are very necessary in our society. They are overtrained and overpaid since they believe CRNAs can adequately manage most clinical situations. If they did not hire CRNAs en masse, things would be quite different. CRNAs have the same concerns about AAs taking over their positions.

Well since you've moved on beyond the ASA, why do you still take their money in legislative and judicial efforts? Anesthesiologists continue to support you financially. Do you contribute to the ASA and support the legislative fight that the ASA fights for YOU? From where I sit, pain physicians seem quite content to sit underneath the large umbrella provided by the ASA and you continually allow them to front a legislative and judicial fight for each and every nurse who steps on your toes.

And while you can't see the difference between an anesthesiologist participating in induction, emergence, and being available for absolutely anything that goes wrong during a case, and a nurse practicing independently, lucky there are many more who can. Is it okay for a nurse to monitor vital signs and call the MD anesthesiologist immediately when something goes wrong? I think so. I still think the best practice is MD-only anesthesia, but there's not enough of us to go around, and some like yourself, choose to jump ship only to put us down and denigrate us. Nice move. Have anesthesiologists of YOUR generation been lazy asses and allowed the nurses far, far too much independence in their practice? Hell yes. You guys have left quite a dirty mess for my generation to clean up. It's angering though for you to pick and choose what is and what isn't complex within an entire medical profession, all while benefitting GREATLY in so many unspoken ways from that profession.

It's also interesting to me the hubris that so many physicians take in so starkly declaring who is and who isn't overpaid. Somehow it's so amazingly difficult to just get along and support one another across the board, yet so easy to push one another down to lift ourselves up just high enough to take the scraps left on the table.
 
Ok...I will take the bait...
Pain physicians are, relative to many other physicians, overpaid. But it all depends on the practice model. Anesthesiologists make on the average twice the income of a family physician who works more hours per week. Interventional pain physicians average slightly more than anesthesiologists, but far less if the practice is non-interventional.
As for the umbrella of the ASA....think again. Where was the ASA in Louisiana? ASIPP spearheaded that effort fighting the incursion of CRNAs. Where was the ASA when ACOEM developed their guidelines for pain practice? Where was the ASA when Medicare jettisoned IDET? Where was the ASA when Tricare stopped covering RF. Etc Etc Etc. The ASA does not spread its mantle of coverage to non-anesthesiologists, since they are not eligible for ASA membership, yet half the interventional pain physicians in the country are NOT anesthesiologists.
The ASA has its own fights with CRNA scope of practice in the OR and unfortunately has failed to prevent the increasing independent practice of CRNAs. The ASA offers membership to anesthesiologists who may hire 5 CRNAs to run the OR instead of bringing sanctions against them. So don't castigate "my generation" for the problems brought on by the continuing avarice of anesthesiologists who were and are willing to sacrifice quality for $$$ by hiring CRNAs to do exactly the same work. The anesthesiologists who hire CRNAs denigrate themselves and the profession as a whole, lowering it to the level of a technician. The ABA and ACGME had the chance long ago to buck the trend and create more anesthesiologists, but given the Wall Street J article in 1994 that caused a backlash in anesthesiology hiring, potential candidates who were American graduates of American medical schools avoided the specialty completely. We could have won the war of numbers in the 1980s and 1990s, but now CRNAs have created the image of equality, and that image is propagated by anesthesiologists who defacto accept their care as acceptable. CRNA schools are cranking out record numbers of graduates, and some obtain their clinical training in local hospitals rather than University hospitals, and anesthesiologists in these local hospitals continue training them. The ASA/ABA has done nothing to prevent this.
The ASA is an overall excellent organization, however it has its hands full with many issues of greater importance to their 95% of members who do not practice full time pain medicine. ASIPP, ISIS, AAPM, ABPM, AAPMR, and to a certain degree NASS have come to represent the interests of pain medicine. The first four organizations represent pain medicine only, full time, all the time. The ASA a partner in pain issues, but is a latecomer to the table. We already have political structures, seats at the AMA, funding, and have been able to achieve many advances without the ASA. The ASA is a very welcome and powerful ally, but they do not represent the whole of pain medicine.
 
algosdoc said:
Ok...I will take the bait...

There's no bait to take. I'm simply a fellow physician who disagrees with your viewpoint on some issues within my field.

algosdoc said:
Pain physicians are, relative to many other physicians, overpaid. But it all depends on the practice model. Anesthesiologists make on the average twice the income of a family physician who works more hours per week. Interventional pain physicians average slightly more than anesthesiologists, but far less if the practice is non-interventional.

I respect the work of primary care physicians, but believe they're underpaid partly because a large amount of research has proven no difference in mortality of morbidity if patients are treated by a PCP or a nurse. Patients still prefer physician-level care of course, but that's not enough. And yes, I believe the salaries within anesthesiology will also begin to fall if we don't prove our worth.


algosdoc said:
As for the umbrella of the ASA....think again. Where was the ASA in Louisiana?

They were here http://www.asahq.org/news/news011508.htm

And in Iowa they were here http://coolice.legis.state.ia.us/Cool-ICE/default.asp?Category=BillInfo&Service=BillBook&menu=false&ga=83&hbill=HJR2006 and here http://coolice.legis.state.ia.us/Cool-ICE/default.asp?Category=BillInfo&Service=BillBook&GA=83&hbill=SSB3085 and here http://www.iasahq.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=60

algosdoc said:
Where was the ASA when ACOEM developed their guidelines for pain practice?

They were here http://www.asahq.org/clinical/chronicpain.htm and here http://www.asahq.org/clinical/ChronicPainUpdateGuidelinesFinal.pdf

algosdoc said:
The ASA does not spread its mantle of coverage to non-anesthesiologists, since they are not eligible for ASA membership, yet half the interventional pain physicians in the country are NOT anesthesiologists.

I'm not sure why you think the ASA should extend membership to non-anesthesiologists just because your myriad of pain societies and fellowship programs feel it's okay to give just about anyone 1 year of fellowship training and then say you're an interventional/chronic pain physician. I have no idea what the ASA feels about that, but I certainly don't agree with it. Again, I say this as someone interested in pursuing fellowship training in interventional pain management.

You're correct on your comments regarding CRNAs having too much independence. And I agree that the ASA doesn't represent the whole of you. It seems there are numerous other organizations willing to represent you. However, I see little good and more bad in having so many organizations stating they represent pain management physicians.
 
I agree with Algos --but it doesn't matter what my opinion is; you just have to look at the marketplace.

Bear with me...
I am originally a physiatrist. It was exceedingly difficult for me to get a pain management fellowship back in 2001. In 2000, there were about 5 non anesthesiologists among 220 or so anesthesiology pain fellows back then. I was fortunate to secure a pain fellowship.

According to a recent JAMA article--the number of ACGME pain fellows has held steady --about 220 to 240/year. I don't know how many non-anesthesiologists are in these programs, but I suspect the rate is more than 2%. Since they do not include non-accredited fellowships, I don't know how many non-anesthesiologsts are in post-residency 'fellowships' or 'medieval apprenticeships'.

In any case, there is an enthusiastic interest among both anesthesiologists and non-anesthesiologists to become part pain specialists. By neglecting non-anesthesiologists, societies exclusive to anesthesiologists missed an opportunity. Using a protectionist mindset to restrict access to non-anesthesiologists did nothing to stop physiatrists or for that matter, anesthesiologists who wanted nothing to do with the OR from practicing pain management.

In fact, the marketplace has decided who gets to practice pain management. I am in a department of anesthesiology and I have very supportive colleagues--and we work well together.

At a nearby academic medical center--they have 3 different pain specialists: physiatry-ortho pair, neurology-neurosurgery pair, and anesthsiology-pain managment.

Over the past ten years, you will see similar changes. Anesthesiology/Pain groups that are still doing OR anesthesia--just want an anesthesiology/pain guy. Many ortho and nsgy groups are exclusively seeking physiatry pain providers.

Groups that exclusively pain will have providers from different backgrounds.

Groups representing physiatrists or anesthesiologists, exclusively---lost an opportunity and now the marketplace has decided. Many of the pain fellows are in their 20s to 40s---will ultimately not have their opinions co opted by any organization that didn't support them early in their training. It often takes about 10 years for any resentment about the bittersweet interview process for pain fellowships (ie, one not based on merit but legacy) to go away.

Hence, some of these societies--particularly in this era--may have a hard time retaining recent grads in their membership rosters
 
As I stated above, the ASA was not party to many of the issues that have affected pain. The ASA Chronic Pain Guidelines have nothing to do with those promulgated and sold by ACOEM. The ASA did not spearhead the issue in Louisiana...they were bystanders that wrote a letter of support to the courts (much appreciated). You should go back and review about the collaboration the ASA had with the AANA in the 1990s and 2000s in a valient but ultimately fatally flawed attempt to bring about a coherent policy on scope of practice- Iowa is a very late issue. The more radical leaders of the AANA ultimately decided to fight the ASA head on via political contributions and via advertising campaigns. My statement about the ASA not being inclusive of pain physicians is factual and if they are to be a major player in pain, they can not represent only anesthesiologists, only half the pain physicians.
Rinoo, your assessment is on point as usual.
The purveyors of the one year pain fellowships are not the pain societies, which have absolutely nothing to do with them...these are in the realm of the ACGME and the anesthesiology program directors, who decided not to have a 2 year fellowship and have opened up pain fellowships to all comers...anyone who has completed any residency in any field in the US is eligible for a pain fellowship.
Totally agree we have serious issues in pain medicine! I have been fighting for a complete residency program for several years at the national level.
Rinoo, your assessment is on point as usual 🙂
 
i have zero interest in anesthesiology anymore, but i will say this from my perspective and my opinion, which again is an opinion, so whatever.

Despite being pretty good, the CRNAs that i worked with were always cocky till something bad happened, then they called for me, or whoever to come stat. THen they took a back seat and let the MD/DO run the show.

When there were complicated patients, at times they would ask not to do the case, i didnt have this luxury. When they couldnt get a line or difficulty, who do they call?

CRNAs for the most part, the many i have encountered, tend to know their post in the anesthesia realm, some however do not. I do not believe that anesthesia is purely technical work, any more than taking out your millionth gall bladder or doing the an ESI.

Most of ALL medicine is routine. Most days, I am hardly challenged, which i am not terribly complaining about. Pain in my opinion is MUCH LESS RISKY, then being up in the middle of the night as the only doctor in the hopsital with patients that are sick, and with poor pre-natal care, etc...

I feel way more secure doing pain full time, but not cocky. I am very careful and very nervous, but in a different way. I dont LIKE anesthesia, but i would never say it is inferior work to pain. VERY DIFFERENT.

I think, in my limited experience, the problem with anesthesiologists and CRNAs is greed and laziness, the same way pain doctors take advantage by employing 3 PAs and one NP, which allows for 100 patient visits a day.

I see the CRNA thing no different then the pain practice where the MD does little more then the procedures. Most of us know that this exist all too often.

Any idiot can do brain surgery poorly, just like any anesthesiologist can do anesthesia poorly. everything is routine for the most part, i dont think anesthesia is any more routine than anything else.
 
As I stated above, the ASA was not party to many of the issues that have affected pain. The ASA Chronic Pain Guidelines have nothing to do with those promulgated and sold by ACOEM. The ASA did not spearhead the issue in Louisiana...they were bystanders that wrote a letter of support to the courts (much appreciated). You should go back and review about the collaboration the ASA had with the AANA in the 1990s and 2000s in a valient but ultimately fatally flawed attempt to bring about a coherent policy on scope of practice- Iowa is a very late issue. The more radical leaders of the AANA ultimately decided to fight the ASA head on via political contributions and via advertising campaigns. My statement about the ASA not being inclusive of pain physicians is factual and if they are to be a major player in pain, they can not represent only anesthesiologists, only half the pain physicians.
Rinoo, your assessment is on point as usual.
The purveyors of the one year pain fellowships are not the pain societies, which have absolutely nothing to do with them...these are in the realm of the ACGME and the anesthesiology program directors, who decided not to have a 2 year fellowship and have opened up pain fellowships to all comers...anyone who has completed any residency in any field in the US is eligible for a pain fellowship.
Totally agree we have serious issues in pain medicine! I have been fighting for a complete residency program for several years at the national level.
Rinoo, your assessment is on point as usual 🙂

Algos, I don't know why you keep harping on CRNAs and the AANA to me, when I've explicitly stated time and time again I wish the AANA nothing but lifelong chronic pain. And again, I vehemently disagree with the degree of freedom given to CRNAs.

As to the repeated 'everyone should be in the ASA' comments, I simply disagree. I spent a year learning internal medicine, but don't feel I should be welcomed into the American Board of Internal Medicine with open arms. And I'll throw in a few stitches on my lines, but I'm not asking for membership in the American College of Surgeons. And while I have no doubt you're correct that the ASA hasn't always been in your corner, having recently attended the ASA LC and the last two ASA meetings, I know they're more than willing to fight for the pain management physicians who maintain an active membership within the ASA. And I feel confident in saying that their actions benefit you and all the other non-ASA pain management physicians.
 
Completely agree that the ASA is a different beast than it was several years ago. I love your comment about CRNAs...made my day 🙂
 
I have nothing but respect for my anesthesia-trained pain colleagues, but don't always feel that the feeling is mutual--at least on a society level. I think that pain, ICU, sleep medicine, etc are "intersection specialties." Why is that so hard to accept?

Finally, a call-out to drrinoo, there is a thread about ACGME versus non-ACGME physiatry fellowships that would benefit from your input!
 
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The first national meeting of stakeholders was last fall and the majority believed simply lengthening the current pain fellowship was the road they wanted to take. The results of this would be different overall lengths of training as a resident/fellow. Family practice/pain would be 3+2 years; Anesthesiology would be 4+2. The program directors were extremely protective of maintaining control over their fellowships and were opposed to a full residency for vague reasons. There may be another meeting this year but effectively pain training remained as a one year residency given the relative paucity of training in chronic pain in the core residency programs including anesthesiology.
 
DESFLURANE: Do a Pain Fellowship if you can, apply to every program in the country. Its super competitive right now. The future of medicine is dark for ALL specialties, not just pain. How do you lose by having the options of being a full time pain physician, and anesthesiologist, or both? It gives you more flexibility in the future with so much uncertainty. Yes, you give up one year and have to live on a fellows salary. Big deal. Pick up some extra shifts before the fellowship, moonlight during and you'll be fine. I've been in practice for the better part of a decade after residency and I am going back to do a fellowship. I couldn't feel more fortunate. The thought of it has me totally re-charged. It only makes you more marketable. Although there have been cuts in reimbursement, procedural based sub-specialists will always make more than generalists, despite that Obama would rather turn that upside down. I'm going to make a shocking prediction that may create havoc on this thread: PAIN MEDICINE WILL SURVIVE OBAMA.
 
Hey Coastie,

Are you a CRNA?

:laugh:

What else is there to say? You're clearly off your rocker if you think ICU/Cardiac/Complex Peds is technicians work. BTW, we also have extensive chronic pain training in residency now. Didn't you get the memo?

I'd wager I've already done as complex if not more than you have. Sorry, but someone who claims anesthesiology is technicians work was probably a propofol pusher in a previous life..And for the record, I wouldn't consider liver transplants to be the most complicated cases we do.

Once again, if you're joking, which, if your credentials are truly what you say they are, then you are joking, I humbly apologize.

If not, then I imagine pain medicine can be a one year residency post medical school, since your previous 4 years of anesthesiology had "nothing" to do with pain management. Considering that would make you the GME equivalent of a "GP", it seems to reason that midlevels will have every justification to take over your field soon.

So which is it?
 
DESFLURANE: Do a Pain Fellowship if you can, apply to every program in the country. Its super competitive right now. The future of medicine is dark for ALL specialties, not just pain. How do you lose by having the options of being a full time pain physician, and anesthesiologist, or both? It gives you more flexibility in the future with so much uncertainty. Yes, you give up one year and have to live on a fellows salary. Big deal. Pick up some extra shifts before the fellowship, moonlight during and you'll be fine. I've been in practice for the better part of a decade after residency and I am going back to do a fellowship. I couldn't feel more fortunate. The thought of it has me totally re-charged. It only makes you more marketable. Although there have been cuts in reimbursement, procedural based sub-specialists will always make more than generalists, despite that Obama would rather turn that upside down. I'm going to make a shocking prediction that may create havoc on this thread: PAIN MEDICINE WILL SURVIVE OBAMA.

Thanks emd,

I'm full steam ahead in the app process and am glad to know there is someone in the some boat. I'm calling in a few favors and hopefully will get a spot as a result. The year will be rough but I plan on hitting the locums circuit hard before I start and moonlight during as you suggested. I agree with you the pain will survive as will MD administered gas, but I'm hedging that a well-run pain practice will win.

It's charged me up as well, think this is the best decision I've made since I finished residency. Just hoping the fellowship spot materializes.
 
Can anyone blame algosdoc for the second half of the post? YOUR attendings train or hire these murse ****** (who do messed up things which can affect ASA3 pts) because they are F'in lazy. Then they still want to rule over them. Mutiny will come at this rate. Don't mind having residents doing cases, but mind when it's not their turn to go home and bicker with the other attendings.

Anesthesia is an interesting field, but I can only hope that the lobbying and paying towards PAC keeps it going for 20 years. When I say 20 years, I mean reasonably okay. We won't get paid what these old time robbers stole. But I guess the Porsches and Gucci purses matter more than some damn respect for your career. Thank you sellouts.

Ok...I will take the bait...
Pain physicians are, relative to many other physicians, overpaid. But it all depends on the practice model. Anesthesiologists make on the average twice the income of a family physician who works more hours per week. Interventional pain physicians average slightly more than anesthesiologists, but far less if the practice is non-interventional.
As for the umbrella of the ASA....think again. Where was the ASA in Louisiana? ASIPP spearheaded that effort fighting the incursion of CRNAs. Where was the ASA when ACOEM developed their guidelines for pain practice? Where was the ASA when Medicare jettisoned IDET? Where was the ASA when Tricare stopped covering RF. Etc Etc Etc. The ASA does not spread its mantle of coverage to non-anesthesiologists, since they are not eligible for ASA membership, yet half the interventional pain physicians in the country are NOT anesthesiologists.
The ASA has its own fights with CRNA scope of practice in the OR and unfortunately has failed to prevent the increasing independent practice of CRNAs. The ASA offers membership to anesthesiologists who may hire 5 CRNAs to run the OR instead of bringing sanctions against them. So don't castigate "my generation" for the problems brought on by the continuing avarice of anesthesiologists who were and are willing to sacrifice quality for $$$ by hiring CRNAs to do exactly the same work. The anesthesiologists who hire CRNAs denigrate themselves and the profession as a whole, lowering it to the level of a technician. The ABA and ACGME had the chance long ago to buck the trend and create more anesthesiologists, but given the Wall Street J article in 1994 that caused a backlash in anesthesiology hiring, potential candidates who were American graduates of American medical schools avoided the specialty completely. We could have won the war of numbers in the 1980s and 1990s, but now CRNAs have created the image of equality, and that image is propagated by anesthesiologists who defacto accept their care as acceptable. CRNA schools are cranking out record numbers of graduates, and some obtain their clinical training in local hospitals rather than University hospitals, and anesthesiologists in these local hospitals continue training them. The ASA/ABA has done nothing to prevent this....
 
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