Transplant Surgery

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ACSurgeon

Acute Care Surgeon
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I've recently developed an interest in transplant surgery, and while I'm familiar with the overall pro's and con's, I wanted to start a discussion on SDN to see what people's experiences and impressions are. I'll start.

Pro's:
Excellent surgical training/abilities.
Giving a patient a new organ brings a unique sense of gratification
Patients are greateful (at least immediately post-op).

Con's:
Lifestyle (although I wonder if more academic transplant surgeons have better call schedules during their protected academic time)
Hep C with liver Tx patients.
Sick patients/many co-morbidities.
Politics of Tx

Personally, my biggest reservation is that it's not general surgery. I really enjoy bread and butter gen surg, and it seems like the common trend is for transplant surgery to consult general surgery for general surgical issues.

So, if you really liked Tx, then why? And if you hated it, then also, why? If it makes a difference, I'm a PGY-2, and have rotated through tx this year.

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So I'm in a similar time frame as you, as I am a PGY3 doing 2 years of clinical research in the lab of the transplant division chief at my residency, so I have definitely drunk the coolaid and am heavily leaning towards transplant (went into residency leaning towards surg onc vs transplant). I'll give you some of my pros and cons:

Pro's:
-Of all the surgeons, the best and most intricate knowledge of hepatobiliary anatomy, as well as the most complex surgeries on the HPB system (if you go to a program that does livers, even moreso if you go to a program that does pancreas and livers). This is a big reason for my shift from Surg Onc to Transplant, as someone who would like to focus mainly on hepatobiliary. HPB may be able to argue this, but doing all those donor hepatectomies and pancreatectomies, and the hepatectomies in the recipient, on the coagulopathic, cirrhotic patients is, in my view, is more difficult than the cancer only patient
-Immensely academic, multidisciplinary, and scientific (ie, a major thinking mans field): you listed many of these aspects as con's, but I personally find them as pros. As someone who actually liked medicine, likes managing the patient, dealing with critical care issues, having a team approach, major advances in caring for the patient, and great areas of potential research, I am greatly drawn to this field. Very similar in that regard to surg onc, and what initially attracted me to surg onc/HPB/transplant.
-Grateful patients and an internally rewarding specialty: the touchy feely stuff, and any surgical field you are passionate about can be internally rewarding, having grateful patients also helps
-It's not general surgery: Again, your biggest reservation is one of my pros. Not that I do not like the bread and butter cases. Hernia's and Chole's etc, those are my cases now, and I do enjoy doing them, and learn greatly from them. But if I want to subspecialize and carve out my little niche, I want to be able to focus on that and not be on the hook for the general stuff as well. Another negative part of Surg Onc, is that at my program, the surg onc guys are required to take gen surgery call, which can mess up their elective surgery schedule(our private hospital we also go to, the surg onc guys are not on gen surg call, but a few of the vascular guys do take gen surgery call). Again, not why I am spending an extra 4 years (2 in lab, 2 in fellowship) to gain a specialized skill set for.
-Future job prospects: I put this as a pro, but its really a toss up. The number of liver transplant jobs isn't the greatest for grads, but the field of transplant as a whole isn't going anywhere, and the demand is only going to increase. Besides the massive backlog of waitlisted people, the epidemic of obesity and diabetes in this nation that is only getting worse will further strain and increase the need for kidneys, pancreas, and, livers (by 2020, the #1 cause for liver txp will likely be NASH caused by diabetes and obesity, not HepC). And as medications increase to improve rejection, improve outcome, and methods of optimizing donors increase, the donor pool will hopefully increase due to more marginal donors and donation after cardiac death, and living related / unrelated donation.

Cons: Lifestyle: This has got to be the biggest turnoff to the field. The middle of the night start times for the procedures which last 6, 10, 12+ hours, while exciting as a 28 year old, can be maddening as a 58 year old. And depending on how many people are in your group and how busy your opo is / how many programs are in the opo, your call schedule can be just as bad. At my institution there are 3 surgeons (was as many as 5 in the mid 2000's, 4 as of 2010. Thus, during the weekday, all 3 of them are technically on call. One for donor, one for recipient, and the last as 2nd attending for the recipient (since we have no fellows, the 2nd attending comes and assists primarily on the hepatic artery anastomosis, but also if the case gets out of hand, where as if it were a place with a fellow, that might be avoided). Over the weekend, the donor surgeon is also the 2nd attending, so they have 1 in 3 weekends entirely off.
-Operative load: again, with all the non operative stuff required, and the simple nature of the field, you don't have the number of operative cases many other specialties enjoy. The busiest program in the nation does about 200 livers a year. But how many attendings is that split between? looking at the web site, there are 6 (I actually expected more). so if each were to do equal (you think Ronald Busuttil is taking the same number of late night procurements as the attending that graduated fellowship in 2010?), thats 33 donors and 33 recipients each, or only 66 cases per year. Now, thats a gross underestimate, and consider if they do elective HPB, some pancreas and small intestine cases, some take backs, etc, and its probably closer to 100-150. That still only works out to be like 2 cases a week, and thats an example of a really busy place. Our program, they do 50-60 transplants a year, so thats 20 transplants each, plus 20 donors, plus if you add in take backs, elective cases, etc, they may be able to push it to 75-100 cases in a busy year. There are some general surgery guys who can get close to 100 cases a month if they are hustling, and if pretty much any other surgeon (besides Trauma/CC) doing 2 cases a week would spell doom.
-Job search: As stated above, getting your foot in the door with transplant is a bit hard. In our OPO, there has been very little turn over in the past 10 years, so if you wanted to become a liver transplant surgeon in NJ, you were SOL. Plus the fact that there are only a handful of places that do transplant, many in metropolitan areas, those adverse to city life will also find getting a job more difficult.

Those are some of my thoughts on the matter, as you can see, I have thought a lot about it, and if applying today, would definitely be applying to transplant fellowships. Hope this helped
 
Thanks for the insightful response.

My comment about it not being general surgery was more that I enjoy some of the general surgery disease process and operations. I wish transplant surgeons still managed their patients' general surgical needs (e.g. SBO after transplant, diverticulitis in a transplant patient, etc).

Regarding lifestyle and operative numbers, I guess those two even out to improve the lifestyle to some extent. My program's transplant numbers are similar to yours; three staff, about 70 kidneys and 15-20 livers per year. So assuming 2-3 operations/week per surgeon, the number of hours spent in the hospital aren't terrible, and the likelyhood of having to actually go back to the hospital in the middle of the night is low. While being on home call isn't exactly time off, most of my non-transplant attendings are still reachable by pager/phone most days even if not formally on call. It seems like the unpredictability is what makes the lifestyle challenging.It's Hard to plan things with your family knowing there is a chance of having to cancel midway through a family event.

My experienc was a little skewed because I was the only resident on service for 10 days (with 10 consecutive days of home call). Even though I only had to go back to the hospital once, being called throughout the night and not having a continuous night of sleep for 10 days was rough.

I still have time to think about this. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!
 
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So, if you really liked Tx, then why? And if you hated it, then also, why? If it makes a difference, I'm a PGY-2, and have rotated through tx this year.

Cons:

Long, difficult, and frustrating cases

Unpredictable hours, late nights

Dealing with liver failure and kidney failure patients whenever they have a surgical (or non-surgical for that matter) problem, even if the solution is not transplant.

Hep C

Access/fistula cases, day in and day out.

Competition with Surg Onc and Hepatobiliary for any non-transplant liver/pancreas cases.

Poor job opportunities unless you want to do kidneys only.

General lack of interest among your residents, except for a few ones every few years.



Those are a few that come to mind.
 
Thanks for the insightful response.

My comment about it not being general surgery was more that I enjoy some of the general surgery disease process and operations. I wish transplant surgeons still managed their patients' general surgical needs (e.g. SBO after transplant, diverticulitis in a transplant patient, etc).

It will depend on where you are. Our TXP and Vascular surgeons almost always also did any GS needs their patients had and the ED was instructed to call those services whenever their patients appeared for evaluation of *anything*.

The more specialized you become and depending on the environment (ie, SOP in your community), the less likely you are to do GS, but there are places where its still done that way.
 
So, if you really liked Tx, then why? And if you hated it, then also, why? If it makes a difference, I'm a PGY-2, and have rotated through tx this year.

In addition to the lists above:

Cons:
1) livers double scrubbed by attendings; residents standing by feet (or at junior level, roaming around the OR)
2) liver patients are sick; really sick
3) harvests (pros: the first one when you get to fly to retrieve is fun): never go when you think they will, so you are trying to sleep on some random couch in some random call room with your attending snoring across the room
4) many of these patients are drug abusers with bad attitudes and bad personalities
5) young kidney patients who don't follow post op instructions, decide not to take meds and ruin their LRD kidney from Mom
6) floor nurses who never feel comfortable or seem unable to draw labs from these patients, making the residents do it
7) the calls from the ED whenever a TXP patient shows up, even if its for some ingrown toenail
8) arguments with Gastro about management

Pros:
we transplanted a heart once in young man on Christmas Eve. The heart came from Bethelem, PA. That was sort of cool, even for this non-religious gal.
 
The cases are cool, both technically and in a "i just put an organ in somebody" kind of way.

The cons are many though, and not just the obvious (lifestyle, hep c).

Where do you guys find all these grateful patients? Most of our liver patients are complete jackasses....then again it turns out that drinking yourself to death is not compliant with being all that normal. To me the biggest cons of transplant, alluded to above, are:

1. Admitting (or at least being consulted on) every transplant patient who ever limps into the ER for any reason. Headaches, toothaches, finger pain all get turfed to you just because they had a transplant, even if the organ is working like a charm.

2. Rejection in liver patients. They come in basically dead, and if you heroically manage to save them by putting in a central line and a dialysis catheter (in someone with an INR of 4, hep C, thrashing around secondary to their encephalopathy/******* baseline) they reward you by sitting in your ICU for 3 months and pulling out every dobhoff, NG tube, IV, tunneled hemodialysis catheter, and arterial line due to their altered mental status. Usually in the middle of dialysis or when maxed on pressors, and always at 3 am. Then again maybe this is strictly a resident problem and not an attending problem.

3. Noncompliance. We work damn hard to fix these people just to have them not take their transplant meds because they didn't feel like it, or start drinking again, etc. When you think about it though, this shouldn't be shocking. It turns out you don't get ESRD from HTN and DM (or liver failure from etoh abuse) by being compliant and responsible at baseline.

In the end a lot of these guys are damn slick in the OR, and I love operating with them. Its the other 65 hours in the transplant week that suck.
 
Good job Thanatos; highlights my transplant experience. In particular about the caliber of patients.

It also didn't help that because of where we were located, we had a few Mennonite nurses who couldn't seem to handle these "rougher" type patients and would always page me to come tell Mr. X to stop calling them a ****ing **** or some other term of endearment.

Those guys didn't seem to care about all the hours and the hard work and yes, when they would refuse to follow post-op instructions, it was all the more galling.
 
I'm a MS4 on a transplant rotation right now, and all of the above sounds correct. The biggest cons I've felt are:
1. Rounding over & over & over
2. Non-compliant patients: not taking their immunosuppressants, not controlling their blood sugars, not taking their anti-hypertensives
3. Getting unpredictably smothered in organs. Last week we picked up 3-4 livers and a fly-out liver/small bowel/pancreas within 3 days. The 2 fellows were so exhausted and hadn't been home or slept on anything but a chair or in the backseat of a car for that amount of time. Sounds miserable.
4. Bad service for medical students interesting in watching the surgery, as it is pretty hard to see what's going on deep in the belly when you're off to the side without loupes.

Pros:
1. At least where I am the fellows would 1st assist the majority of the cases unless there were complications, then another attending would be called in.
2. Amazing anatomy lesson when going to the donor site, and a bit of a rush when you get to fly-out (the attendings say they hate planes now though).
 
For liver failure patients in hepatic encephalopathy waiting to get a liver how many of you guys put in ICP monitors?
 
Cons:
1) livers double scrubbed by attendings; residents standing by feet (or at junior level, roaming around the OR)
.

this is very institutional dependent. At my program where we have a PGY4 as chief of service, the second attending only scrubs in once the liver comes out, and only displaces the PGY4 for the hepatic artery anastomosis, unless there is some specific reason for needing two attendings.

Transplant is definitely for a very small niche of the crazy people who are looking at some of these cons and see them not as cons... and everyone is going to have their own pros and cons list of every field, thats why not everyone becomes X type of doctor... I mean, some people even find geriatrics interesting?!? Or some people are like, you know what, all I am going to focus on is the foot! Or Teeth. Or Breasts. Or the Butt. And each has their pros and cons, and everyone weighs them differently. But definitely make sure you know what you are getting yourself into, one of my Kidney Txp attendings quit medicine entirely about 9 months after fellowship 😱 talk about going through 7-9 years of torture for nothing.
 
this is very institutional dependent. At my program where we have a PGY4 as chief of service, the second attending only scrubs in once the liver comes out, and only displaces the PGY4 for the hepatic artery anastomosis, unless there is some specific reason for needing two attendings.
Fair enough sounds like you've a good experience.

This is obviously institution and attending dependent. However the OP was asking us for our personal experiences and not generalized wisdom. Therefore I included my personal experience and why I disliked it.
 
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Pros: ?

Cons: Transplant surgeons have the added risk factor of death by plane crash.
 
Thanks for the insight, heliscomo

Would any of you mind commenting a little bit more about the future job prospects for graduating fellows? I know there's a pinch right now, and that the transplant workforce is younger than most others, but are there any plans to address the issue?
 
Cons: As a txp surgeon you may only do a handful of surgeries the rest of your life

Liver: procurement, hepatectomy, transplant, live donor hepatectomy/txp
Kidney: procurement, live lap/robot/open donor nephrectomy, transplant, transplant nephrectomy, access procedures

there's more here and there and you can certainly do both if you find a job like that,
but something about only doing a few types of cases a couple dozen times of year is worrisome

also, what percentage of graduates actually do livers when they graduate
in all honesty, i feel like i would only wanna do livers when i graduate
 
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Cons: As a txp surgeon you may only do a handful of surgeries the rest of your life

Liver: procurement, hepatectomy, transplant, live donor hepatectomy/txp
Kidney: procurement, live lap/robot/open donor nephrectomy, transplant, transplant nephrectomy, access procedures

there's more here and there and you can certainly do both if you find a job like that,
but something about only doing a few types of cases a couple dozen times of year is worrisome

also, what percentage of graduates actually do livers when they graduate
in all honesty, i feel like i would only wanna do livers when i graduate

This thread has been dead for 5 years...
 
Cons: As a txp surgeon you may only do a handful of surgeries the rest of your life

Liver: procurement, hepatectomy, transplant, live donor hepatectomy/txp
Kidney: procurement, live lap/robot/open donor nephrectomy, transplant, transplant nephrectomy, access procedures

there's more here and there and you can certainly do both if you find a job like that,
but something about only doing a few types of cases a couple dozen times of year is worrisome

also, what percentage of graduates actually do livers when they graduate
in all honesty, i feel like i would only wanna do livers when i graduate

necro29844976_lrg.jpg
 
Based on other threads, it seems this question is more and more relevant nowadays: are transplant surgeons good-looking? Like reaaally good-looking?

Surgeries can be quite complex, so I am assuming you'd have to be somewhat attractive at least.
What he/she said

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