"Trapped" in Hong Kong after giving birth

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mehc012 said:
We actually are not at the top of the pack for things like civil liberties, economic freedom, etc. either. On civil liberties, we rank lowest out of all fully democratic nations.
https://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/how-does-the-united-states-rank-in/

(Yes, it's a blog...but it tells you which studies it is referencing. If you look at any individual one of those, I imagine there is a lot to talk about on methodology, some alternative measures, etc., but the blog is nice just as a collection for big picture. Thus far, I've only looked in depth at the civil liberties study, because that one surprised me.)
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dat parentheses content to regular content ratio
 
Doudline said:
I have little time to read extensive documentation, but if it's not happening in Denmark despite the claimed circumstances, it can only be caused by externalities which makes the possibility more costly than by delivering in their own country.

It's very simple. If the opportunity cost to travel to X country and deliver there is less than that of delivering in your own country, people will do it most of the time.
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Translation: I won't even look at sources that support others' arguments, no matter how convenient it may be to do so . I'm just going to double down on my pre-existing assumptions and ignore new inputs.

Good day, then. If your mind is already so made up that you can't accept new information and evaluate it fairly, then there really isn't any point in further conversation with you.
 
Lol I'm always confused by all of these people who love to tell everyone about how disgraceful America is, or how much it sucks, or how much better other countries are...

Sure it's easy to pick and choose which statistics / qualities to compare and point out where America isn't top-notch. France is better at drinking wine and eating cheese, Germany is more efficient, Norway has a higher QOL, Japan has more respectful citizens, Russia has whiter snow, Mexico has cheaper guacamole, etc... But the fact remains that out of all of these countries, when you combine all of these statistics to get a good glimpse of the country as a whole, the US is where you want to be - it's the "best of the worst." And if you don't believe this, how do you justify your masochistic behavior? Of course these people will always find some reason to justify their endless pathetic whimperings and whining, "My family lives here!", "But my job is here!", "I can't afford a plane ticket!", "Where would I go?", "I'm a coward!"

It's also interesting to see how many people criticize America's military policies. I find this extraordinarily shortsighted, naive and to be quite honest, straight up ungrateful. Let's just say if we ever find ourselves in another World War, I don't think you'll be condemning your country's military when it's the only thing standing between your family's safety and another holocaust. It's easy to take these things for granted when we're in a peaceful era.

Of course, there's always a time and place to voice your complaints. It would be silly to simply dismiss people's concerns by responding "Don't like it? Then leave!" But there's something to say about criticizing the country you live in with a little bit of respect and a little less hypocrisy.

Don't like global warming? Then why the **** are you driving a car instead of riding a bike? Hope you don't use electricity that isn't derived from 100% green energy sources. Hope your trash doesn't go to a landfill.
Don't like animal experimentation/cruelty? Good luck with that one, hope you're a vegan and don't mind testing experimental drugs on humans.

The list is endless.

The amount of hypocrisy in this country is mind-bogglingly (yes, that's probably not a word) INSANE. I can't even begin to describe how irritating it is to hear all of these liberal students - who learn about x in their ivory tower classroom - and then go out in the world and start campaigning for their impractical hypothetical ideals. Get real.
 
Womb Raider said:
Of course, there's always a time and place to voice your complaints. It would be silly to simply dismiss people's concerns by responding "Don't like it? Then leave!" But there's something to say about criticizing the country you live in with a little bit of respect and a little less hypocrisy.
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This is all I would ask of people who live in the U.S. and constantly criticize the U.S. There are legitimate problems with the way this country does things, and attention needs to be drawn to those - indeed, just saying "if you don't like it, get out" would deprive us of a lot of great opportunities to acknowledge the issues and improve the nation. But I do think that all too often, these complaints are voiced in a very contemptuous and unconstructive way. Excessive negativity while discussing sensitive topics is what turns necessary debates into mudslinging crapfests. I'll leave my input on that side of the conversation with that.

If we want to go into more detail on this debate, I think another thread, possibly on the "topics in healthcare" forum might be a good place to do so.
 
Lawper said:
Writing to congressmen? Seriously? What a tragedy considering that Congress is completely useless and inactive in essentially everything. But yeah, the case is pretty absurd and unfortunate.

I feel this thread is best suited for Allo.
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Writing your congressman generally isn't the worst idea when you need assistance in something like this. Of course Steve King is probably one of the dumber members of congress (a step above Louis Gohmert), but how that affects the responsiveness of his office probably has a low correlation.
 
Tired said:


"Being eight weeks early and abroad, baby Kyuss Bradley and his mother, Wendy's, medical expenses are not covered by her insurance and are adding up daily. As of May 16, her bills are at $24,000, with an added daily cost of $1,600 as Kyuss remains in the hospital. The hospital initially withheld the birth certificate until the entire bill was paid in full. However, on May 16, due to widespread media coverage, the hospital has released the certificate to our family. This means we can get the baby's passport started.

Wendy is now discharged from the hospital and staying at a nearby hotel for $60 a day, in addition to paying for all her meals. The hospital also does not supply any necessities such as baby diapers, pads, etc., so we have been purchasing those as well. As Kyuss continues to stay in "special care", Wendy will remain in Hong Kong beside her baby boy. The doctor has told us that Kyuss is getting strong fast, and should be released soon!"


FYI - the GoFundMe page is at $25k.
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america... f*ck yeah
 
Tired said:


"Being eight weeks early and abroad, baby Kyuss Bradley and his mother, Wendy's, medical expenses are not covered by her insurance and are adding up daily. As of May 16, her bills are at $24,000, with an added daily cost of $1,600 as Kyuss remains in the hospital. The hospital initially withheld the birth certificate until the entire bill was paid in full. However, on May 16, due to widespread media coverage, the hospital has released the certificate to our family. This means we can get the baby's passport started.

Wendy is now discharged from the hospital and staying at a nearby hotel for $60 a day, in addition to paying for all her meals. The hospital also does not supply any necessities such as baby diapers, pads, etc., so we have been purchasing those as well. As Kyuss continues to stay in "special care", Wendy will remain in Hong Kong beside her baby boy. The doctor has told us that Kyuss is getting strong fast, and should be released soon!"


FYI - the GoFundMe page is at $25k.
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Did you donate bro?
 
NickNaylor said:
There are plenty of people who seem to disagree given the fact that so many people immigrate here, even illegally if necessary.
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Given the choice between Mexico and USA, I think the choice is obvious.
 
WingedOx said:
Writing your congressman generally isn't the worst idea when you need assistance in something like this. Of course Steve King is probably one of the dumber members of congress (a step above Louis Gohmert), but how that affects the responsiveness of his office probably has a low correlation.
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Cases like this that involve foreign disputes are mediated by contacting the US embassy and State Department. Writing letters to congressmen accomplishes nothing, considering their ineptitude is leading to political self-destruction and making all other nations deride us.
 
Tired said:


"Being eight weeks early and abroad, baby Kyuss Bradley and his mother, Wendy's, medical expenses are not covered by her insurance and are adding up daily. As of May 16, her bills are at $24,000, with an added daily cost of $1,600 as Kyuss remains in the hospital. The hospital initially withheld the birth certificate until the entire bill was paid in full. However, on May 16, due to widespread media coverage, the hospital has released the certificate to our family. This means we can get the baby's passport started.

Wendy is now discharged from the hospital and staying at a nearby hotel for $60 a day, in addition to paying for all her meals. The hospital also does not supply any necessities such as baby diapers, pads, etc., so we have been purchasing those as well. As Kyuss continues to stay in "special care", Wendy will remain in Hong Kong beside her baby boy. The doctor has told us that Kyuss is getting strong fast, and should be released soon!"


FYI - the GoFundMe page is at $25k.
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From that description, it sounds like they were expecting the hospital to pay for her hotel, meals, diapers, pads etc. Am I just misreading that?
 
Why does it cost $1.2k/day in costs? That number seems absurdly high.
 
During an undergrad summer I did a congressional internship and I'd would have to write letters to constituents requesting all sorts of things from their neighbor not mowing the lawn to a constituent who was under the impression that he could get his US residency set up expedited since he met the congressman at an event once.
 
ElCapone said:
Why does it cost $1.2k/day in costs? That number seems absurdly high.
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I am at a large hospital. Because of my involvement on several committees, I have several patient bills, itemized on my desk (well, on my bed since I'm on vacation right now). A standard private (single patient in a room) at our hospital costs $962. A CVICU bed runs $3,810. That is the base, which from what I can make out is nursing, food and not a whole lot else. Everything else is added on top of that.

This is a premature baby in a PICU. Healthcare at baseline is expensive. Maybe not as expensive as in the US, but ICU care is incredibly labor intensive and it does not come cheap.

I had a family member in an ICU for 5 days and then a normal hospital bed for another 9. Total bill was a shade over 60k. 6k deductible and insurance covered the rest, which is what it is there for.
 
Cost of ICU in a local hospital is the last comparison to be made here:

33f5p4n.jpg


I can imagine China would be somewhere lower than Spain.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ow-americas-health-care-prices-are-ludicrous/
 
Last edited:
"And without a birth certificate, the U.S. embassy cannot issue a passport for baby Kyuss to return home to Iowa."

Now, who I think really is at fault of this embarrassment here is our embassy in Hong Kong. They should have been more foresightful of this situation and its consequences by being the government representation "on the ground" as opposed to a remote congressman in Iowa. What they should have done is to issue required documents for that family to return home, instead of following bureaucratic rules which are clearly not meant for unordinary and unanticipated circumstances, like this one.
 
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allantois said:
"And without a birth certificate, the U.S. embassy cannot issue a passport for baby Kyuss to return home to Iowa."

Now, who I think really is at fault of this embarrassment here is our embassy in Hong Kong. They should have been more foresightful of this situation and its consequences by being the government representation "on the ground" as opposed to a remote congressman in Iowa. What they should have done is to issue required documents for that family to return home, instead of following bureaucratic rules which are clearly not meant for unordinary and unanticipated circumstances, like this one.
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It is reasonable to require a birth certificate in order to provide a passport for the baby. That passport becomes a durable identity document, not just a single pass across borders this one time. And babies are sometimes so desirable that people will take ones that aren't theirs. I don't get that at all, but it happens. Being able to produce a birth certificate at least indicates that some baby was born to this mother recently.

That may be absurd, but the point of bureaucracy is that it automates systems in the absence of a discerning authority. It is easy to hate on it when it hits a snag like this, while ignoring how incredibly often it means that complex processes can be accomplished without the need for a court order or a referendum each and every time. The embassy does represent the U.S. government, but it does not possess the authority to change the rules under which it operates. That requires an appeal to elected officials back home.

Hopefully, an effective bureaucracy will be in place when the child is old enough to decide to change his ridiculous name. =)
 
On a somewhat related side note. I got sick in a foreign country. I had to provide my passport and outbound flight info to check in. I was required to pay my bill in full before I could leave. Luckily it wasn't a fortune, but it was enough that I'm rather sure most backpackers don't have that sort of cash laying around. Getting sick in the US is pretty cush.
 
I'm still slightly unsure why her american insurance isn't covering any of this. I was under the impression that american insurance plus travel insurance would have covered all the bases...?

Tired said:
I love the youth phase of "everything sucks." So sorry your stupid parents make you live in America.
I hope you get your opportunity to live abroad. I know it was eye-opening for me.
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Give it a rest.
 
Tired said:
Four posts bemoaning how terrible America is, and how unfair it is he has to live here. I point out the immaturity once, and you tell me to give it a rest. Grow up, kiddo. 🙄
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The fact that you read criticisms on the folly of American exceptionalism as 'bemoaning how terrible America is, and how unfair it is to live here' belies your ignorance.

Your attitude of essentially saying that if you don't like it here (i.e. if you find faults you want to fix) then move elsewhere is what's wrong with the political process. To be succinct: it's tired, lazy, and played out.
 
Tired said:
You clearly didn't read the posts, but that's okay. Later if you have time, you should take a look at them. He absolutely bemoaned how terrible America is, and specifically blamed his parents for forcing him to live here.

I'll just stand by for your apology.
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Well screw you for being right and screw @mehc012 for those stupid ninja edits.

Though, I didn't see mehc say anything about being forced to live here so much as wanting to stay because of family.
 
ridethecliche said:
Well screw you for being right and screw @mehc012 for those stupid ninja edits.
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I put my original comments back...they're all there. Sincerely sorry if you checked in during the 30s they were gone...I specifically put them back in order to prevent such misunderstandings.

And I don't bemoan my parents for making me live here - that aspect was a response to the "I won't be so gauche as to tell you to live somewhere else if you don't like it here" (paraphrase from Tired's earlier post). It's just not that simple. I am bound, one way or another, to live in this country. That's not an issue of blame, it's just an explanation of why I continue to live here. I still don't like it, am not proud of it, and find it funny when people talk about how wonderful the US is, when we fall short on almost all metrics comparing developed countries.

I don't know what else it is that you are responding to in Tired's posts, because I was asked nicely not to continue derailing this thread and so I unsubscribed and am not going to go back through and read all of their comments (if I do, I will surely return to the discussion and continue derailing).
 
My family immigrated here when I was a child. I have no interest in moving back to my 'native' country, but don't see that as a reason why I can't work to make this country better. From what I understand of American history, immigrants have done quite a lot of that.
 
Tired said:
You will quite literally find fault with everyone and everything except the person who chose to travel to China while 32 weeks pregnant.
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There does seem to be a deemphasis on personal responsibility with these sorts of issues. While I don't agree with how the hospital handled the situation, I do think it was pretty foolish to travel while heavily pregnant.

I will say that I disagree with them expecting the hospital to provide all those amenities for them. They're providing an expensive enough service as is. Those costs are there to pay for the healthcare, not extra diapers and hotel expenses.

ridethecliche said:
Well screw you for being right and screw @mehc012 for those stupid ninja edits.

Though, I didn't see mehc say anything about being forced to live here so much as wanting to stay because of family.
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I have never met anyone on the internet who is as awesome as you when they're wrong :laugh:
 
ridethecliche said:
My mother says I'm incorrigible.
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She would probably know better than me 😛 I've seen you straight admit to being wrong twice (both due to having just misread the thread) and both times it was in hilarious fashion.

I think most people on the internet would dig themselves into a deeper hole by becoming defensive and continuing to assert correctness, so your method is refreshing!
 
UNMedGa said:
She would probably know better than me 😛 I've seen you straight admit to being wrong twice (both due to having just misread the thread) and both times it was in hilarious fashion.

I think most people on the internet would dig themselves into a deeper hole by becoming defensive and continuing to assert correctness, so your method is refreshing!
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At the end of the day, I remember that the people on the other end of the line here are:
a) People
b) People I might work with at some point in the future
c) People I can learn from and that might be able to learn from me. Even if we disagree about things unrelated to work, re: politics or what have you.

At the end of the day, there should be a certain modicum of respect involved if for no other reason than that people aren't quite so anonymous. That's not the reason for me, but for some people that should suffice. I've also reached out to a few people I've had disagreements with via pm to clear the air.
 
ridethecliche said:
At the end of the day, I remember that the people on the other end of the line here are:
a) People
b) People I might work with at some point in the future
c) People I can learn from and that might be able to learn from me. Even if we disagree about things unrelated to work, re: politics or what have you.

At the end of the day, there should be a certain modicum of respect involved if for no other reason than that people aren't quite so anonymous. That's not the reason for me, but for some people that should suffice. I've also reached out to a few people I've had disagreements with via pm to clear the air.
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I always hope people will remember those points when I post. That's why I try not to edit my stuff out once it's been seen. I am human and perhaps some of my posts are ill-considered, but I couldn't take the words back in real life conversations and I don't want to pretend I can on the internet.
I stand by what I've said in this thread in that I truly feel that way about this country, but I do recognize that it was unnecessary to throw that in the face of those who like or even love it. That's why I tried to take it back, but again...when talking online, as in reality, you very rarely find yourself able to unsay things, and since it was read and responded to, I'd rather the record accurately show what people were reacting to.
 
ridethecliche said:
At the end of the day, I remember that the people on the other end of the line here are:
a) People
b) People I might work with at some point in the future
c) People I can learn from and that might be able to learn from me. Even if we disagree about things unrelated to work, re: politics or what have you.

At the end of the day, there should be a certain modicum of respect involved if for no other reason than that people aren't quite so anonymous. That's not the reason for me, but for some people that should suffice. I've also reached out to a few people I've had disagreements with via pm to clear the air.
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Respect is such an important part of any human interaction, and unfortunately it's one of the most oft-omitted elements on internet conversations.
 
@mehc012 , I do agree that there is a knee jerk reaction by many americans to tell those that push for improvement to essentially put up and shut up or get out.
 
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