Trends in podiatry?

[sabsaf123]

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So I was looking at the recent trend in pod grads getting a residency and I was kind of pleasantly surprised to see that the results were far better than I expected. I remember the tone on sdn a couple of years ago was that podiatry had huge residency shortage which is why going to pod school was like gambling with 250k since there was a 25+% chance of not getting into any residency.

From the data, it seems 97.8% of pod grads placed somewhere and they are actively working towards placing grads from previous years into residency. As an incoming DO student can I take this data and chill a bit about matching SOMEWHERE in the US as long as I pass all my classes/boards? I'm actually a really conservative person and the idea that I may be gambling with ~300k with a significant chance of not matching anywhere worries me. Obviously there's no guarantee that I pass med school, and I actually know 2 ppl from my undergrad that both left after MS1 from good MD schools. I am not too worried about having to leave after first year because recovering from 50k is much easier than recovering from 300k. Obviously my intent is to study my hardest and get solid grades, but I still think its important to be prepared for anything.

So is my understanding of this data from pod schools correct? Or am I misunderstanding something about placement rate, match rates, schools selection only certain students to apply for match, etc. at pod schools?


http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/pdf/PlacementUpdate.pdf

 

[W19]

There is no guarantee in medicine now... Things have been getting very competitive lately. Try to do your best to pass your classes and kill the boards!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you pass your boards you'll match somewhere and get a job.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There is no guarantee in medicine now... Things have been getting very competitive lately. Try to do your best to pass your classes and kill the boards!

You can be the worst in your class and still have a moderate amount of choice pending you don't have repeat failures or board failures.

 

[W19]

You can be the worst in your class and still have a moderate amount of choice pending you don't have repeat failures or board failures.

What is 'moderate amount' of choice? FM and path... even PM&R, a specialty that no one knows what they do is getting competitive. I have been going over FREIDA and I notice that a lot of FM programs have minimum score requirement for step 1/2 (210+/220+) and level 1/2 (500+)...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What is 'moderate amount' of choice? FM and path... even PM&R, a specialty that no one knows what they do is getting competitive. I have been going over FREIDA and I notice that a lot of FM programs have minimum score requirement for step 1/2 (210+/220+) and level 1/2 (500+)...

A residency 20-30 outside of a midwestern city.

 

[W19]

A residency 20-30 outside of a midwestern city.

you mean 20-30 miles! I don't know man... All I know is that I am going to do my best to match. Already studying for step2 CS so I can take it early so I can have enough time to study for CK in order to beat my step 1 score by 30+ points...

In addition, I already compile a list of 100+ IM programs to apply to. I also might apply to 80+ FM programs. Don't want to take any chances!

I heard of an IMG that applies to 250 FM programs this year and she only got 1 interview offer.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

you mean 20-30 miles! I don't know man... All I know is that I am going to do my best to match. Already studying for step2 CS so I can take it early so I can have enough time to study for CK in order to beat my step 1 score by 30+ points...

In addition, I already compile a list of 100+ IM programs to apply to. I also might apply to 80+ FM programs. Don't want to take any chances!

I heard of an IMG that applies to 250 FM programs this year and she only got 1 interview offer.

I get it, you're from no-drive land or something and don't usually drive. but 20 miles is about a 30 minute drive even if you're in grandma mode.

And by all means do what ever you feel is necessary for you.

 

[bobtheweazel]

So I was looking at the recent trend in pod grads getting a residency and I was kind of pleasantly surprised to see that the results were far better than I expected. I remember the tone on sdn a couple of years ago was that podiatry had huge residency shortage which is why going to pod school was like gambling with 250k since there was a 25+% chance of not getting into any residency.

From the data, it seems 97.8% of pod grads placed somewhere and they are actively working towards placing grads from previous years into residency. As an incoming DO student can I take this data and chill a bit about matching SOMEWHERE in the US as long as I pass all my classes/boards? I'm actually a really conservative person and the idea that I may be gambling with ~300k with a significant chance of not matching anywhere worries me. Obviously there's no guarantee that I pass med school, and I actually know 2 ppl from my undergrad that both left after MS1 from good MD schools. I am not too worried about having to leave after first year because recovering from 50k is much easier than recovering from 300k. Obviously my intent is to study my hardest and get solid grades, but I still think its important to be prepared for anything.

So is my understanding of this data from pod schools correct? Or am I misunderstanding something about placement rate, match rates, schools selection only certain students to apply for match, etc. at pod schools?


http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/pdf/PlacementUpdate.pdf

Your understanding of the podiatry placement rate is correct, though I'm not quite sure what that has to do with getting into a DO residency.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

I heard of an IMG that applies to 250 FM programs this year and she only got 1 interview offer.

Uh... how is this relevant? You are a US MD, unless you literally fail out of med school or fail the boards multiple times you will match. Maybe not anything competitive but you will at least match FM.

 

[NurWollen]

So, the podiatry students at my school tell me that the pod accrediting body (their version of LCME/COCA) has capped class size expansion and the opening of new schools until their number of residency spots catches up.

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[bobtheweazel]

So, the podiatry students at my school tell me that the pod accrediting body (their version of LCME/COCA) has capped class size expansion and the opening of new schools until their number of residency spots catches up.

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True, which is why good residency outlook for podiatry students doesn't translate into good residency outlook for osteopathic students. Not unless the DOs had kept their residencies seperate from MDs, capped class sizes, put a moratorium on opening new schools, and initiated an aggressive residency genesis program—all of which the Council on Podiatric Medical Education did.

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[NurWollen]

True, which is why good residency outlook for podiatry students doesn't translate into good residency outlook for osteopathic students. Not unless the DOs had kept their residencies seperate from MDs, capped class sizes, put a moratorium on opening new schools, and initiated an aggressive residency genesis program—all of which the Council on Podiatric Medical Education did.

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The AOA/COCA wouldn't even have to take measures that drastic. Simply slowing school expansion would be enough.

 

[Mr Roboto]

DPM ≠ DO

Do you understand that the residencies are different?

 

[GypsyHummus]

So, the podiatry students at my school tell me that the pod accrediting body (their version of LCME/COCA) has capped class size expansion and the opening of new schools until their number of residency spots catches up.

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This was a wise and an extremely necessary thing to do. In four years, there is supposed to be a surplus of residency spots. Podiatry isn't going to expand by failing to secure their graduates a residency placement spot. Podiatry is slowly starting to move in the right direction, it took the speed of a glacier, but it is starting to move in the right direction.

Now all the residencies are three year foot and ankle surgery. This was another big step (pun intended) in the right direction. One thing podiatry got very right is preserving surgical rights when treating patients. A PA or an NP may be able to trim a corn or freeze off a wart, but they will never be able to crack open an ankle and do reconstructive surgery or an implant. NPs will never be able to amputate toes.

Podiatry's next battle is becoming fully licensed physicians of the foot and ankle with the same full practice rights afforded to MD/DO foot and ankle specialties , which I foresee happening by the year 2022. I have always supported this move and I think it would do amazing things for not only podiatrists, but for the health care field in general. This would help the physician shortage, especially in areas that suffer from an increased diabetic demographic.

The competition is reflecting these positive changes. The people in podiatry school are not the people they were ten years ago. There are DO level quality applicants. When I interviewed, I had the lowest GPA and MCAT scores out of everyone. People interviewed at DO schools and MD schools, were rejected, and applied to podiatry schools. Pod schools now are getting the 3.3 GPA and 24 MCAT students DO schools got ten years ago. I can see in the next 5 years podiatry having averages around the 3.4 and 500 MCAT mark.

 

[Nikj]

This was a wise and an extremely necessary thing to do. In four years, there is supposed to be a surplus of residency spots. Podiatry isn't going to expand by failing to secure their graduates a residency placement spot. Podiatry is slowly starting to move in the right direction, it took the speed of a glacier, but it is starting to move in the right direction.

Now all the residencies are three year foot and ankle surgery. This was another big step (pun intended) in the right direction. One thing podiatry got very right is preserving surgical rights when treating patients. A PA or an NP may be able to trim a corn or freeze off a wart, but they will never be able to crack open an ankle and do reconstructive surgery or an implant. NPs will never be able to amputate toes.

Podiatry's next battle is becoming fully licensed physicians of the foot and ankle with the same full practice rights afforded to MD/DO foot and ankle specialties , which I foresee happening by the year 2022. I have always supported this move and I think it would do amazing things for not only podiatrists, but for the health care field in general. This would help the physician shortage, especially in areas that suffer from an increased diabetic demographic.

The competition is reflecting these positive changes. The people in podiatry school are not the people they were ten years ago. There are DO level quality applicants. When I interviewed, I had the lowest GPA and MCAT scores out of everyone. People interviewed at DO schools and MD schools, were rejected, and applied to podiatry schools. Pod schools now are getting the 3.3 GPA and 24 MCAT students DO schools got ten years ago. I can see in the next 5 years podiatry having averages around the 3.4 and 500 MCAT mark.

. I mean if he can do it....

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

This was a wise and an extremely necessary thing to do. In four years, there is supposed to be a surplus of residency spots. Podiatry isn't going to expand by failing to secure their graduates a residency placement spot. Podiatry is slowly starting to move in the right direction, it took the speed of a glacier, but it is starting to move in the right direction.

Now all the residencies are three year foot and ankle surgery. This was another big step (pun intended) in the right direction. One thing podiatry got very right is preserving surgical rights when treating patients. A PA or an NP may be able to trim a corn or freeze off a wart, but they will never be able to crack open an ankle and do reconstructive surgery or an implant. NPs will never be able to amputate toes.

Podiatry's next battle is becoming fully licensed physicians of the foot and ankle with the same full practice rights afforded to MD/DO foot and ankle specialties , which I foresee happening by the year 2022. I have always supported this move and I think it would do amazing things for not only podiatrists, but for the health care field in general. This would help the physician shortage, especially in areas that suffer from an increased diabetic demographic.

The competition is reflecting these positive changes. The people in podiatry school are not the people they were ten years ago. There are DO level quality applicants. When I interviewed, I had the lowest GPA and MCAT scores out of everyone. People interviewed at DO schools and MD schools, were rejected, and applied to podiatry schools. Pod schools now are getting the 3.3 GPA and 24 MCAT students DO schools got ten years ago. I can see in the next 5 years podiatry having averages around the 3.4 and 500 MCAT mark.

That might even be happening this cycle with the residency mergers and the elimination of grade replacements haha

 

[zero0]

That might even be happening this cycle with the residency mergers and the elimination of grade replacements haha

I doubt it. The line between DO and MD may be getting blurrier by the week, but feet will always be feet. Takes a certain kind of person to like the bread 'n butter of podiatry, so don't start scrambling to get those AACPMAS applications in just yet.

 

[bobtheweazel]

I doubt it. The line between DO and MD may be getting blurrier by the week, but feet will always be feet. Takes a certain kind of person to like the bread 'n butter of podiatry, so don't start scrambling to get those AACPMAS applications in just yet.

But there are a lot of people who aren't gonna have many options anymore—without grade replacement. It'll be between podiatry, optometry, and pharmacy school.

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[Cranjis McBasketball]

But there are a lot of people who aren't gonna have many options anymore—without grade replacement. It'll be between podiatry, optometry, and pharmacy school.

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Or nursing and onto NP

 

[bobtheweazel]

Or nursing and onto NP

NP wouldn't be bad, it's just such a long route because you'd need a couple of years to knock out the BSN, then I think most DNP programs require you to have 5 years experience nursing, and then a couple more years to get the DNP. And then in most states you still need to practice under a physician as a NP, so I wouldn't feel like it's a good investment of my time. But some people might see it differently I guess.

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[GypsyHummus]

But there are a lot of people who aren't gonna have many options anymore—without grade replacement. It'll be between podiatry, optometry, and pharmacy school.

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I would so much rather be a foot and ankle doc than have to fight saturation.

This grade replacement thing messed me up so much. I was a horrible student till the age of 22 and then turned the beat around. All to get slapped down by AACOMAS. I am so thankful and humbled for podiatry and the opportunity it will allow me to have in being a physician, even if it is restricted to the foot and ankle (and hands in Alaska).

 

[bobtheweazel]

I would so much rather be a foot and ankle doc than have to fight saturation.

This grade replacement thing messed me up so much. I was a horrible student till the age of 22 and then turned the beat around. All to get slapped down by AACOMAS. I am so thankful and humbled for podiatry and the opportunity it will allow me to have in being a physician, even if it is restricted to the foot and ankle (and hands in Alaska).

Lol, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, and West Virginia also include the hand. That's twice as many nails to clip ya know. Cha-ching.

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[W19]

NP wouldn't be bad, it's just such a long route because you'd need a couple of years to knock out the BSN, then I think most DNP programs require you to have 5 years experience nursing, and then a couple more years to get the DNP. And then in most states you still need to practice under a physician as a NP, so I wouldn't feel like it's a good investment of my time. But some people might see it differently I guess.

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Wrong!

 

[W19]

I would so much rather be a foot and ankle doc than have to fight saturation.

This grade replacement thing messed me up so much. I was a horrible student till the age of 22 and then turned the beat around. All to get slapped down by AACOMAS. I am so thankful and humbled for podiatry and the opportunity it will allow me to have in being a physician, even if it is restricted to the foot and ankle (and hands in Alaska).

Are you a pod student now? I think you should tried harder to get into DO...

 

[zero0]

But there are a lot of people who aren't gonna have many options anymore—without grade replacement. It'll be between podiatry, optometry, and pharmacy school.

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I don’t really follow that argument. If they want to be doctors they’ll put in the work to get the grades/MCAT they need even if it takes a few years. Rushing into an alternate career just because they want Dr in front of their name seems like a guaranteed recipe for dissatisfaction later on. And if they can’t manage to meet those requirements no matter how hard they try, I’d rather they just not be put into positions where incompetence can lead to harm. If anything, it’s a shame that podiatry isn’t more selective also but I guess a good few are weeded out during school so at least there’s that.

 

[bobtheweazel]

I don’t really follow that argument. If they want to be doctors they’ll put in the work to get the grades/MCAT they need even if it takes a few years. Rushing into an alternate career just because they want Dr in front of their name seems like a guaranteed recipe for dissatisfaction later on. And if they can’t manage to meet those requirements no matter how hard they try, I’d rather they just not be put into positions where incompetence can lead to harm. If anything, it’s a shame that podiatry isn’t more selective also but I guess a good few are weeded out during school so at least there’s that.

There are already people in my class who did just that. They didn't do well in an MD or DO application cycle and then settled for podiatry the following cycle, rather than go to school for a couple more years to get a Master's or whatever so that they could have another shot at possibly getting into MD or DO school or possibly just settling later on anyway. That additional time commitment isn't worth it to some people. I'm not making an argument, I'm saying exactly what some people do and what more people will likely do now that the DO application service dropped grade replacement.

Though I'm not saying anybody should rush anything. Most of the people who would refuse to choose podiatry haven't shadowed a recent podiatry grad, don't know a modern podiatrist's scope of practice, etc and should obviously thoroughly research any profession before committing to it.

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[bobtheweazel]

Wrong!

Dang brah, didn't have to be so Trumpy about it.

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[GypsyHummus]

I doubt it. The line between DO and MD may be getting blurrier by the week, but feet will always be feet. Takes a certain kind of person to like the bread 'n butter of podiatry, so don't start scrambling to get those AACPMAS applications in just yet.

Meh, at this point I'm old, and Id rather have my hands trimming callouses than getting coughed on.

Don't get me wrong, MD/DO will always be the 10/10 or 9/10 wife everyone aspires too, but podiatry is like a solid 6-7/10 and something you can invest your future into. Podiatry might not be the hottest profession ever, it might stink sometimes, it might be an investment, but it is The hotter the person, the more demanding after all.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Are you a pod student now? I think you should tried harder to get into DO...

dude, eventually you run out of money.

 

[bobtheweazel]

dude, eventually you run out of money.

People run out of money, time, and patience. It's totally reasonable. And then considering those extra few years you spend trying to get into DO school could've been spent making good money as a podiatrist. It's not an easy decision either way, but I can see why people switch.

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[GypsyHummus]

I don’t really follow that argument. If they want to be doctors they’ll put in the work to get the grades/MCAT they need even if it takes a few years. Rushing into an alternate career just because they want Dr in front of their name seems like a guaranteed recipe for dissatisfaction later on. And if they can’t manage to meet those requirements no matter how hard they try, I’d rather they just not be put into positions where incompetence can lead to harm. If anything, it’s a shame that podiatry isn’t more selective also but I guess a good few are weeded out during school so at least there’s that.

Some people, like me, just couldn't hack the MCAT.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I don’t really follow that argument. If they want to be doctors they’ll put in the work to get the grades/MCAT they need even if it takes a few years. Rushing into an alternate career just because they want Dr in front of their name seems like a guaranteed recipe for dissatisfaction later on. And if they can’t manage to meet those requirements no matter how hard they try, I’d rather they just not be put into positions where incompetence can lead to harm. If anything, it’s a shame that podiatry isn’t more selective also but I guess a good few are weeded out during school so at least there’s that.

I said this before (idk if in this thread) but I think what will start happening is a lot of these aspiring DOs will do sub par on the MCAT or have lower GPAs now and will start googling or asking people for advice on what to do and will be pointed in the pod direction. So at the very least a lot more people are now gonna be aware that it is a great option. Most of my friends that are doing med/dental schoo dont even know podiatry exists or they think its a medical school specialty.

 

[zero0]

Meh, at this point I'm old, and Id rather have my hands trimming callouses than getting coughed on.

Don't get me wrong, MD/DO will always be the 10/10 or 9/10 wife everyone aspires too, but podiatry is like a solid 6-7/10 and something you can invest your future into. Podiatry might not be the hottest profession ever, it might stink sometimes, it might be an investment, but it is The hotter the person, the more demanding after all.

Yeah, I get it. Best of luck to you.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I said this before (idk if in this thread) but I think what will start happening is a lot of these aspiring DOs will do sub par on the MCAT or have lower GPAs now and will start googling or asking people for advice on what to do and will be pointed in the pod direction. So at the very least a lot more people are now gonna be aware that it is a great option. Most of my friends that are doing med/dental schoo dont even know podiatry exists or they think its a medical school specialty.

Agreed. Get in while the getting is good

 

[68PGunner]

In podiatry, you are working surgeon hrs while netting 150-160K a year. That's not worth it. I would rather sell meth on the street for coins and changes than going into that direction.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In podiatry, you are working surgeon hrs while netting 150-160K a year. That's not worth it. I would rather sell meth on the street for coins and changes than going into that direction.

No podiatrist works anything close to surgeon hours unless they are trying to make 300k+.

 

[bobtheweazel]

In podiatry, you are working surgeon hrs while netting 150-160K a year. That's not worth it. I would rather sell meth on the street for coins and changes than going into that direction.

If by surgeon hours you mean 40.4 hours per week [2014 APMA survey].
And if by 150-160k you mean somewhere between 183k-287k depending on employment type.
183k average for a mix of podiatrists, 75% of whom were owners of the practice (2014 APMA survey)
217k average for a general podiatrist (2010 MGMA survey)
262k-287k average for a surgical podiatrist (2015 ACFAS survey, 2010 MGMA survey)

 

[68PGunner]

If by surgeon hours you mean 40.4 hours per week [2014 APMA survey].
And if by 150-160k you mean somewhere between 183k-287k depending on employment type.
183k average for a mix of podiatrists, 75% of whom were owners of the practice (2014 APMA survey)
217k average for a general podiatrist (2010 MGMA survey)
262k-287k average for a surgical podiatrist (2015 ACFAS survey, 2010 MGMA survey)

Those numbers look great for you guys. I hope the metrics stay that way when you graduate from school. I'm very surprised that these podiatrists are working so little, considering that the podiatrists get all the foot and ankle cases at the hospital that I once worked at. Don't you guys have calls like surgeons do on a regular basis.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Those numbers look great for you guys. I hope the metrics stay that way when you graduate from school. I'm very surprised that these podiatrists are working so little, considering that the podiatrists get all the foot and ankle cases at the hospital that I once worked at. Don't you guys have calls like surgeons do on a regular basis.

Some podiatrists work call, but I believe most don't since they're only licensed to treat foot and ankle cases. There would still have to have an orthopedic surgeon on call for the other cases so it's usually pointless to have both on call since the orthopedist can do emergency foot and ankle cases as well. Depends on the hospital though I suppose.

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[hallowmann]

Podiatry is a very good career for people looking in to medicine, especially if they aspire to be surgeons. I couldn't do it, but I'm also not a fan of surgery... or feet... so...

you mean 20-30 miles! I don't know man... All I know is that I am going to do my best to match. Already studying for step2 CS so I can take it early so I can have enough time to study for CK in order to beat my step 1 score by 30+ points...

In addition, I already compile a list of 100+ IM programs to apply to. I also might apply to 80+ FM programs. Don't want to take any chances!

I heard of an IMG that applies to 250 FM programs this year and she only got 1 interview offer.

You're over doing it. Stop looking at IMGs and start looking at AMGs. Unless you have board failures (and that's with an s), as an AMG, you'll be fine applying to half (or honestly even a quarter) of that many (the 100+ IM and possibly 80+ FM) places, unless you're limiting yourself to the very top university programs in the most competitive locations. But honestly even then, you shouldn't be applying to anywhere near 180+ places.

Seriously man, I'm all for applying broad, but hitting up 180+ programs as an AMG without board failureS is a recipe for a crazy waste of money and way more interviews than you can even get close to going on. Think about it, most IM and FM programs interview 8-10 people per spot just to have enough to rank and fill in the match.

The AOA/COCA wouldn't even have to take measures that drastic. Simply slowing school expansion would be enough.

I don't know. Even if they stopped all expansion, there were still twice as many DO grads as OGME and it would have taken at least a decade if not longer for regular OGME expansion (something that honestly happened quickly hand in hand with school expansion - so without school expansion it might have even been slower).